How do we fight the Grey Knights?

[TyrionTheImp]

This may be true in most marine armies, but for Grey Knights we can rely a LOT more on our men to dish out the pain in the shooting phase. The reason is that, where marines rely on 1-2 special/heavy weapons per squad to do most of the offensive work, GKs have squad-wide storm bolters. That's 20 bolter shots at 24" on the move. Add in psybolts for 2pts per model, and those are S5. Add in Psycannons for fairly cheap, and 4 of those shots are half-range, assault, rending autocannons. And then, as you weigh these two alternatives, you realize that the GKs also have squad-wide S5 force weapons! Grey Knights don't need Razorbacks to do their shooting for them. Rather, they need more boots on the ground, because every single model in a GK army is a force to be reckoned with.

 

Oh undoubtedly true, but one has to remember that GK's are no more resilient than regular Space Marines but cost more. Running a foot army with GK's doesn't sound terribly appealing to me unless I were running a pure Terminator force.

 

As for adding Psybolts onto a squad, I'm not a fan of it. The increase of effectiveness between Str 4 and 5 is minimal as you still can't effectively damage vehicles, and you're only adding 1/6 more damage against infantry and MC's. Sure it's only 2 points per model (in a squad of 10), but it adds up over multiple squads. Psybolts are effective on Heavy Bolterbacks because Strength 6 CAN damage vehicles, and it makes MC's easier to damage and it's only a mere 5 points. Also, on Rifleman, having Strength 8 instead of Strength 7 vastly increases effectiveness against vehicles and widens the amount of AV values you can penetrate with them.

 

Purifiers are better than Strike Squads point for point, except for the fact you have to get Crowe who is honestly terrible. He's not an IC, and his only use is close combat. That takes up 150 (I think, not positive) points and an HQ slot, is he worth it for purifiers? Maybe, but that will have to wait until after the book has been out for a bit more.

[TyrionTheImp]

Against infantry armies I can see this being effective, but an effective way to deal with this would be to mech up. Short of a couple of psycannons on Interceptor squads, these units have no real way to deal with tanks unless they're in combat. Even semi-mech lists can capitalise by bringing their full force to bear on these units once they've been dragged out of line and exposed.

 

Actually, you can give Daemon Hammers to interceptors, and if those tanks haven't moved, they're as good as dead being Strength 10 and all.

[DarkGuard]

Against infantry armies I can see this being effective, but an effective way to deal with this would be to mech up. Short of a couple of psycannons on Interceptor squads, these units have no real way to deal with tanks unless they're in combat. Even semi-mech lists can capitalise by bringing their full force to bear on these units once they've been dragged out of line and exposed.

 

Actually, you can give Daemon Hammers to interceptors, and if those tanks haven't moved, they're as good as dead being Strength 10 and all.

 

Well yeah. But I've touched on that, emphasis on bold. And they don't need Daemon Hammers if they have 10 krak grenade attacks and many S10 attacks at 2D6 armour pen for the Dreadknight. But my point is that they don't have much shooting that can reliably open a tank and allow them to assault the contents inside in the same turn. Interceptor squads can take psycannons for a price, but this lowers their combat effectiveness and they're not as powerful compared to Terminator variants (ie. 20pts for 4 shots rather than 8). Dreadknights can take a heavy psycannon, but it's a blast weapon, and as we know from plasma cannons blast weapons aren't amazing at opening tanks.

 

They can open up mech, and through combat they can disrupt and take away an army's mobility. However, they will struggle to open up mech and assault contents in the same turn. In this regard they need supporting fire from Psyfleman Dreads. That being said, if they work well together it can be a devastating tactic against any army, the Psyfleman Dreads destroying the mech and the Shunt Punch units taking out the guys that spill out.

[Captain Idaho]

Will get more involved in this discussion later when I'm free, but for now I want to leave you guys with this;

 

Don't waste points on a Librarian (unless he is your usual choice for a cheap HQ, though I would prefer a MotF with Plasma Pistol with Sternguard)!

 

The consensus here appears to be a Librarian will help you stop those powers going off, but aside from dying fairly easy to GK tricks and not getting many powers off, there is another reason. Apart from the GK Librarian, the GK powers you can expect to see won't change the game by much.

 

Hammer Hand on Purifiers who just assaulted your Sternguard? Yeah they got 3 power weapon attacks each - it ain't changing much!

 

Astral aim from Purgation squads? Well IF anyone takes them, 5th edition has TLOS so hiding is rarely a luxary we enjoy anyway!

 

Of course, being unable to prevent their vehicles firing a turn is a blow, but at least thath only really means Dreadnoughts with autocannons.

[Something Wycked]

The consensus here appears to be a Librarian will help you stop those powers going off, but aside from dying fairly easy to GK tricks and not getting many powers off, there is another reason. Apart from the GK Librarian, the GK powers you can expect to see won't change the game by much.

 

Even though you put that line in there that I bolded, the sense I got from your post is that GK psychic powers aren't something to be feared. The GK powers can change the game in a huge way, from the Librarian or other IC's or just every squad having Hammerhand.

 

In my view, it will to be difficult to keep a Libby alive long enough to be able to negate the worst of the psychic power spam from GK's, but if you don't try to stop that part of their game plan it has the potential to really put the hurt on you.

[DarkGuard]

Cheers for the replies so far guys. I was just browsing my Codex yesterday and something jumped out at me that could potentially change what we use in lists. The Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon is a cheap piece of wargear for an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, an already cheap HQ. Together they come to just 35pts! However, the main thing is that the Plasma Syphon reduces the BS of all plasma weapons to 1 within 12". This is quite scary as with all the new Grey Knight Terminator lists, and even power armoured lists, people were most likely to put plasma back into their lists to counter it. Even though it is expensive so are their units, and so plasma could really wreck havoc among them. However, now I would expect the canny Grey Knight player to take a couple of these Inquisitors, allowing them a couple of melta units while keeping them safe in tanks on the front line. If said tank blows up they can just run and hide in a Terminator squad etc.

 

How do we counter this? A good player will make it hard for us to pick him out, but if he is out in the open just divert your Rifleman Dread or similar for an ID shot. The other way is to not take plasma and rely on weight of wounds and melta, which to be fair is normally how our weapon load outs work out. The main problem with weight of fire is that there is a significant decrease in effectiveness between power armour and Terminator, I still remember the time I unloaded two 10 man Tactical squads into a Terminator squad and only one or two died!

 

This will be an interesting piece of wargear, particularly as they can take this twice for cheaply, giving a good coverage in protecting their Terminator squads from units like quad plasma squads. The actual wargear entry says all plasma weapons which would include their own plasma weapons, but with only a handful of units capable of taking plasma, and those that can will usually opt for melta, I doubt it'll impede on the Grey Knights as much as us.

 

Could be one to look out for, as this piece of wargear has taken away perhaps one of our best weapons against the Grey Knights, although there are still demo cannons.

[Tangamarine]

Plasma cannons should still be fine, provided you fire them from beyounf 12" If the grey knights deep strike and shot, you know what to do brothers...

[Captain Idaho]

The consensus here appears to be a Librarian will help you stop those powers going off, but aside from dying fairly easy to GK tricks and not getting many powers off, there is another reason. Apart from the GK Librarian, the GK powers you can expect to see won't change the game by much.

 

Even though you put that line in there that I bolded, the sense I got from your post is that GK psychic powers aren't something to be feared. The GK powers can change the game in a huge way, from the Librarian or other IC's or just every squad having Hammerhand.

 

In my view, it will to be difficult to keep a Libby alive long enough to be able to negate the worst of the psychic power spam from GK's, but if you don't try to stop that part of their game plan it has the potential to really put the hurt on you.

 

I'm going to have to refute that, good sir.

 

Whilst Hammer Hand can make a lone surviving Grand Master a particular threat, and the ever present threat of instant death too, these powers are not game changing in most circumstances. We will rarely have more than 1 model on the table with more than 2 wounds anyway, and those with less will be more fearful of massed attacks than anything else, so instant death is more of an inconvenience than a game changer.

 

This is especially true in conjunction with my next point; the GK player will be using Hammer Hand to put wounds on our characters and units, but with every model in the army having a power weapon or better, this isn't going to change our game anyway. You won't be winning combats with your Tactical squads against equal or even half numbers of the least of the GK squads. Assault Marines will die just as easy.

 

The only unit which can really stand a chance againt equal numbers of GK is Thunder Hammer Terminators and even this is situational. They won't be everywhere and taking them means taking a Landraider, which means reducing your advantage in numbers. And even then, the amount of saves a GK Termintor or Purifiers squad can put on your Thunder Hammers, including shooting before assaulting, means those Thunder Hammer Terminators won't last long.

 

You just won't be beating GK armies in a slug fest with Codex Marines. Hell, even Space Wolves with their Thunder Wolves and Blood Angels with their Sanguinary Priests are going to struggle to take them on toe to toe.

 

As for the Librarian, yes his powers can be awesome but such is his cost and that of a Grand Master, it means we will likely never see armies with both these models unless they plan on being out numbered - advantage to us!

 

Our own Librarians will have less than a 50% success rate of nullifying their powers, whilst the ease the opponent can kill or shut down that Librarian will mean you won't get much us out of him, thus having wasted your points.

 

A Captain or Master can at least use their Relic Blades and Storm shields without fail from nasty tricks and thus be dependable and not wasted points.

[meatball]

A Captain or Master can at least use their Relic Blades and Storm shields without fail from nasty tricks and thus be dependable and not wasted points.

 

I would say that a captain with a plasma command squad is very reasonable against GK. I would keep him bare minimum maybe a combi melta or plasma but that is about it. Relic blade and storm shield or any other CC oriented wargear is a waste against GK. They strike first strike harder and basically there isn't unit in C:SM that can accompany a character in close-combat against GKs.

 

Librarians are less effective due to the large array of wargear GK have against psykers. Why play at their game?

[DerekLee688]

Master of the forge and Cassius get +1 MOTF not being CC orentated and Cassius being the cheapest survivable counter assault.

 

Librarians -1 for 100pts of short range low impact psy defence

Captains fear ID more than ever -1

 

Riflemen -1 for the difficulty to stunlock vehicles and it being a non AP:2 or 3 weapon.

 

Typhoon+1 for AP3 kraks and being longer range than

MM/HF Tornado's -1 who will be taken down by army wide stormbolters.

 

Dirt cheap plasma cannons on Tac squads +1

 

Do teleporting packs cluster all the units like deepstrike? If so that's a mad boost to template weapons.

Vindi's, typhoons, PC/ML dread, 4x PC/ML devestators and even counter assault using units with flamers Tac/Sternguard will help us out shoot the choppies.

 

I'm not trying to talor my list to fight GK, so Libies and captains of all sorts will still be in my lists but I do have more motivation to try ones I haven't been, like plasma command. Every list still needs fast melta and unfortunately all options are vulnerable to army wide stormbolters/psyriflemen and is 50% of my armies AP:2/1 firepower.

[minigun762]

Ironclads might be a valid counter. The higher front armor should offer some better protection if they have to tangle with a DK and it does render them immune to any combination of Storm Bolters and Heavy Bolters with Psy rounds. Psycannons are still a threat but they have to rely on rending to actually do anything.

[Corby]

Ironclads might be a valid counter. The higher front armor should offer some better protection if they have to tangle with a DK and it does render them immune to any combination of Storm Bolters and Heavy Bolters with Psy rounds. Psycannons are still a threat but they have to rely on rending to actually do anything.

 

Don't forget the dreadknight can take a thunderhammer that strikes at I4. As well as being an Mc I think it might stomp on Dreads. You're right about it being durable against Psycannons though.

[minigun762]

Good point about the Hammer. The DK isn't a preferred target for a Dreadnought (no MC is usually) but at least it isn't helpless.

 

I wonder how successfully a Typhoon Speeder could hide and snipe units while still staying out of Stormbolter range, I feel like it would be a challenge. On the other hand, the simple Dakka Predator would be quite durable at range and all the firepower would take down something eventually regardless of a 2+ save or not.

[ShinyRhino]

Couple quick responses to things mentioned in the thread:

 

Servo Skulls sound nasty, but suffer from a huge points cost, limited availability, and a self-destruct mechanism. Get any unit within 6" of a skull, and it simply goes away. Add in the fact that they can't be deployed within 12" of the enemy's deployment zone, and they're not that impressive. Most units in the game can reach them in a single turn's worth of movement, plus a Run.

 

The Plasma Conduit is only availabel to Ordo Xenos Inquisitiors, yes? Which means a max of 2 in the whole force, carried around by a T3 model. Take a pair, and you've given up all of the rock-hard GK HQ choices. 12" range is dangerous for Rapid Fire mode, but you can still send volleys of plasma shots out to 24" range. Proper maneuvering can also allow you to fire at a unit containing that Conduit, ithout triggering its effects. Unless the Inquisitor is perfectly positioned, you can have range to the models on the edge of the unit, but not be in the 12" range of the Inquisitor model itself.

 

I thinkt he biggest obstacle GK players will face is the temptation to upgrade, Upgrade, UPGRADE. It'll be very easy to sink a ton of points into every unit on upgrades, which makes a small force even smaller. The smaller you make the force, the easier it will be to shoot the choppy ones, and chop the shooty ones. Grey Knights are still not a "beginner's force" because of the razor edge every player will walk when fielding them.

[DarkGuard]

Ironclads might be a valid counter. The higher front armor should offer some better protection if they have to tangle with a DK and it does render them immune to any combination of Storm Bolters and Heavy Bolters with Psy rounds. Psycannons are still a threat but they have to rely on rending to actually do anything.

 

Don't forget the dreadknight can take a thunderhammer that strikes at I4. As well as being an Mc I think it might stomp on Dreads. You're right about it being durable against Psycannons though.

 

I don't think the thunder hammer will be that big a deal. The Dreadknight comes standard with two Nemesis Doomfists, which are DCCWs with the Nemesis rules. All the Daemon Hammer does is add the shaken status to vehicles and the I1 for multi-wound models, not worth the investment IMO.

[spartan249]

One thing I want to add to this discussion. I think Grey Knights can create a mid-range shooting army much more efficiently than a C:SM list trying to do the same thing. While Tactical Marines have to get into position and hunker down to get optimal range, Grey Knights control the middle from turn 1 thanks to their ability to fire full range on the move. They were better at this before, now the difference is much larger given that they got a 5 point discount each. Add in to that their ability to get S5 storm bolters, and every weapon the GKs wield have the ability to disable AV10-11, which puts Rhinos and Razorbacks in peril. Add to this the fact that they can extend some firepower at long range (Beamers, Psyfledreads, Lascannons, etc), and an army created with the basics in mind could prove to be quite the opponent at any range.

 

I can't see any easy answer for C:SMs to match C:GKs at any range but long range, given that C:SM can bring much more ranged firepower then C:GKs. The game's going to have to be a measured game of cat and mouse, forcing the GKs to close in to you to deal damage. Mobility and long range firepower will be the key to combating no-nonsense basic GK lists.

[Something Wycked]

I'm going to have to refute that, good sir.

 

.....

 

Our own Librarians will have less than a 50% success rate of nullifying their powers, whilst the ease the opponent can kill or shut down that Librarian will mean you won't get much us out of him, thus having wasted your points.

 

A Captain or Master can at least use their Relic Blades and Storm shields without fail from nasty tricks and thus be dependable and not wasted points.

Unfortunately, you only addressed Hammerhand and the GK ability in CC.

 

As for the Captain or Master, they're in just as much danger of being hit by ID as the Libby, and if your opponent uses a Vindicare your Terminator Armor/Storm Shield isn't going to matter much at all. Rock/Paper/Scissors. Yes, the Libby can be countered, so can your Captain/Master. It all depends, doesn't it?

 

There are plenty of reasons to take a Librarian. I didn't want to get into specifics, but...

 

Psychic Communion: Do you really want GK reserves to come in when they want them to?

Might of Titan: Combine with Hammerhand and you turn a unit of GK's into Strength 6 monstrous creatures against vehicles. I'd want to shut this down.

Quicksilver: A GK player taking this power probably isn't investing a lot into Halberds. Shutting this down means you'll likely act on an equal footing when it comes to initiative.

Sanctuary: Probably less effective against MEQ armies that won't attempt to assault GK's but there are easy to imagine (albeit rare) instances where you'd need to make a clutch assault, and this would prevent it.

Shrouding: Cover saves being the primary defense against shooting attacks, do you want theirs to be an even better defense against the primary tool you're using to take down his army?

Summoning: It would be a great idea to prevent the GK force from using Apoc's Strategic Redeployment.

Heroic Sacrifice: There's plenty of ways for your characters to get insta-gibbed, but this is another way that you can prevent if your Libby is nearby.

Warp Quake: Shut this down and you have much more flexibility with your Drop Pods, RAS/VV, Speeders, etc coming in from deep strike.

Holocaust: While this is just a short ranged Whirlwind shot from the MEQ perspective, its worth it to shut it down to prevent a bunch of 3+ wounds being inflicted.

Cleansing Flame: I'd personally like to shut down a template shaped exactly like how my squad is arranged on the battlefield, even if it does only wound half of them.

Fortitude: It'd be nice to keep their vehicles stunned/shaken, wouldn't it?

 

Of course you're not going to see all or even most of these in any given battle, but by taking a Librarian you're essentially gifting yourself with ~50% chance to shut down core abilities of the army. Its kind of like forcing a dice-off every time your opponent wants to use a particular kind of wargear.

 

For me personally, being able to have the opportunity to prevent some nastyness from happening to me or some boon from happening to him is a hell of a lot better than no chance at all. Saying its worthless because you have less than a 50% chance and then you're going to get shot in the face afterwards is like saying Tacticals are worthless for shooting Terminators because the Terminators won't die and will mow them down afterwards. We all know that isn't entirely true. As much as I hate Tacticals, even I know that isn't entirely true lol

[norngahl]

Played GK yesterday.

 

In my opinion you won´t have to fear them as long as you are bringing enough firepower. They really suck with their 3+ armour (or 2+/5++). You will barely beat them in CC, but just shoot them. Plasmacannons (Autocannon/Plasmacannon Dread is my favourite build anyhow) and a Vindicator and a LR with 5 Hammernators and you will deal with them fine. They will suck your blood in CC due to their superior wargear, but until this point they die like a common tactical marine, while having only half the models on the field. With 30 Bodies or so on the field on 1,5k, you will have an easy game. Especially when it´s about holding objectives or such. Annihilation in Dawn of war is the only mission where it might get very interesting. In any other case.. shoot them.

 

Even Nemesis Knights aren´t that hard.. T5, W4, A3 and 5++ isn´t something Hammernators won´t fix with ease. Against the usual dudes.. Vindicator, PCs, Sternguard, Meltaweapons.

 

Just relax and don´t worry too much. I think GK are kinda.. midfield. You will only have to worry when your complete army is assault based and you HAVE to face them in CC. Really, a Vindicator, 2 PCs and some DS1-3 Stuff does real hurt to them. Personally I think they will be a tough enemy when they bring an Inquisitor and hordes of non-SM stuff..

[DarkGuard]

Cheers for the information there norngahl. This does put my mind at ease considering the fact I normally try and pack at least two Vindicators. I may try and get more plasma in, maybe my quad-plasma Command squad will come off the shelf?

[spartan249]

I don't think you should be making snap decisions about a codex after fighting 1 or 2 users of the codex. 30 bodies in 1.5k is insanely low, even for GKs, and the codex is fully capable of having 40+ MEQs at 1.5k, plus trimmings.

 

Long range is where C:SM excel against GKs. Capitalize on it, and always have a librarian handy to hood with.

 

Actually, my test GK list has gone against vindicator using armies quite a few times now, and they have rarely ever gotten enough kills to justify the cost. Usually, they'll get 3 or 4 knights under the blast (if they hit), of which 1, maybe 2 will die due to the 3+ cover save I engineer (techmarine). If the Vindi's in range to shoot, so are the Psycannons and the Exitus Rifle. Not exactly an ideal place to be. A combi-pred will perform better due to outranging the GKs and forcing saves all game.

 

At least where GKs are concerned, I would do everything in my power to stay out of 24" range. GKs are simply better at it, and will whittle you down to nothing very quickly. The quad plasma squad might work against less tactically aware opponents, but it will be lackluster against PAGKs in bolstered or shrouded cover (god forbid he has both).

[DarkGuard]

I do think that Vindicators and plasma will still be very useful against Grey Knights. Yes they can stick in cover and get cover saves, but they can't do it all the time. There will be times when they're drawn out of cover, when they have to be out of cover, and that's when plasma will be handy. By all means a good player will make good use of cover, but he'll find it difficult to stay in cover all game. Flamers as usual will be good en masse, so don't think I'm going to load up on plasma. Plasma might just be handy. That being said, hellfire and vengeance rounds on Sternguard will still be solid against Grey Knights.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Seems to me that they should be treated in a similar strain of marine to the BA. An army that works best up close and personal, has marine stats and a few nasty additions of its own.

 

I guess the regular marine killing weapons are of use here, which isn't too unexected! I think if anything, its the fact that they are quite 'new' that makes them dangerous, as there are a lot of factors people can't see just yet....give it a month or two and we'll probably hear of some nasty units that we didnt know could do so much damage!

[norngahl]

I don't think you should be making snap decisions about a codex after fighting 1 or 2 users of the codex. 30 bodies in 1.5k is insanely low, even for GKs, and the codex is fully capable of having 40+ MEQs at 1.5k, plus trimmings.

 

Long range is where C:SM excel against GKs. Capitalize on it, and always have a librarian handy to hood with.

 

Actually, my test GK list has gone against vindicator using armies quite a few times now, and they have rarely ever gotten enough kills to justify the cost. Usually, they'll get 3 or 4 knights under the blast (if they hit), of which 1, maybe 2 will die due to the 3+ cover save I engineer (techmarine). If the Vindi's in range to shoot, so are the Psycannons and the Exitus Rifle. Not exactly an ideal place to be. A combi-pred will perform better due to outranging the GKs and forcing saves all game.

 

At least where GKs are concerned, I would do everything in my power to stay out of 24" range. GKs are simply better at it, and will whittle you down to nothing very quickly. The quad plasma squad might work against less tactically aware opponents, but it will be lackluster against PAGKs in bolstered or shrouded cover (god forbid he has both).

 

Just mech up and the GK will immediatly stop laughing.. SM-GK hanging around in cover is my personal dream. I will outshoot them at any time. In my List I have 2x Combipreds, a Vindicator and a LR(Hammers).. AV13+AV14 isn´t something GK can deal with pretty easy. And that´s beside LC/PG razors, Speeders and Dreads..

 

Personally I think the Deathwing-Mantra is something very important against GK: Concentrate your fire. Kill a unit rather than damaging two. One unit of GK can only get after one unit of yours. Even with 4 Units on the field, shoot one after another and keep on the move. You don´t even need to kill all GK. Trap them with Dreads or heck even deny them their way with Speeders and go for the mission. Personally I like MSU playing. Except my LR and the Hammernators, I only ever field cheap cost-effective mech units.. Footslogging Elite is something that doesn´t work in 40k when you don´t go for annihilation.

[Captain Idaho]

Unfortunately, you only addressed Hammerhand and the GK ability in CC.

 

As for the Captain or Master, they're in just as much danger of being hit by ID as the Libby, and if your opponent uses a Vindicare your Terminator Armor/Storm Shield isn't going to matter much at all. Rock/Paper/Scissors. Yes, the Libby can be countered, so can your Captain/Master. It all depends, doesn't it?

 

There are plenty of reasons to take a Librarian. I didn't want to get into specifics, but...

 

Psychic Communion: Do you really want GK reserves to come in when they want them to?

Might of Titan: Combine with Hammerhand and you turn a unit of GK's into Strength 6 monstrous creatures against vehicles. I'd want to shut this down.

Quicksilver: A GK player taking this power probably isn't investing a lot into Halberds. Shutting this down means you'll likely act on an equal footing when it comes to initiative.

Sanctuary: Probably less effective against MEQ armies that won't attempt to assault GK's but there are easy to imagine (albeit rare) instances where you'd need to make a clutch assault, and this would prevent it.

Shrouding: Cover saves being the primary defense against shooting attacks, do you want theirs to be an even better defense against the primary tool you're using to take down his army?

Summoning: It would be a great idea to prevent the GK force from using Apoc's Strategic Redeployment.

Heroic Sacrifice: There's plenty of ways for your characters to get insta-gibbed, but this is another way that you can prevent if your Libby is nearby.

Warp Quake: Shut this down and you have much more flexibility with your Drop Pods, RAS/VV, Speeders, etc coming in from deep strike.

Holocaust: While this is just a short ranged Whirlwind shot from the MEQ perspective, its worth it to shut it down to prevent a bunch of 3+ wounds being inflicted.

Cleansing Flame: I'd personally like to shut down a template shaped exactly like how my squad is arranged on the battlefield, even if it does only wound half of them.

Fortitude: It'd be nice to keep their vehicles stunned/shaken, wouldn't it?

 

Of course you're not going to see all or even most of these in any given battle, but by taking a Librarian you're essentially gifting yourself with ~50% chance to shut down core abilities of the army. Its kind of like forcing a dice-off every time your opponent wants to use a particular kind of wargear.

 

For me personally, being able to have the opportunity to prevent some nastyness from happening to me or some boon from happening to him is a hell of a lot better than no chance at all. Saying its worthless because you have less than a 50% chance and then you're going to get shot in the face afterwards is like saying Tacticals are worthless for shooting Terminators because the Terminators won't die and will mow them down afterwards. We all know that isn't entirely true. As much as I hate Tacticals, even I know that isn't entirely true lol

 

Firstly, a Captain or Master is massively more survivable than a Librarian. He has a decent Invulnerable save and higher initiative, so can take down a couple models before he goes down. It's not ideal being in assault, but if you have to you can still hit him hard enough to mop up remnants.

 

You are making the assumption that GK players will be taking Librarians. Taking a look at the Army list forum shows most 1500pts games consist of a GK Grand Master as sole HQ and this is because it is far and above the best option available.

 

For the points of a GK Librarian you sure are having a weaker choice (still the same stats as our own Librarians) and that is fine by me if he gets off a few powers.

 

The Psychic Communion is great but after turn 2 the odds are in the GK player's favour of his reseves coming in anyway. And taking a Psychic hood just to stop this power is a little expensive. I know what might be said in reply to this: "yes but you can stop the other powers too".

 

Well technically yes, but like I said earlier we won't hardly see any Librarians unless the opponent uses them instead of GMs which I doubt very much seeing the points cost of the 2 Wound Librarian therefore what other powers are you going to stop? Hammer Hand or Astral Aim? Both powers which won't change much. You are going to get shot without Astral Aim and beaten up without Hammer Hand.

 

As for the actual powers (accepting the assumption we will see the Librarian of course);

 

Psychic Communion - Yes a good power, if the opponent has reserves and if the opponent doesn't roll a 4+ anyway (or better).

 

Might of Titan: Scary until you realise it's assault based anyway which means death will be the end results for your force without this power anyway.

 

Quicksilver: Yeah sounds good until we realise 2 things. 1) it's assault so we will die anyway and 2) there are plenty of cheap Halberds out there.

 

Sanctuary: Can't see much of a problem for us here.

 

Shrouding: No way a problem when you consider cover is required for this. How many cover saves will the GK have especially when they are assaulting our positions? Situational really.

 

Summoning: Actually an awesome power, no denying it. Though it does mean the Librarian needs to get across the table and that usually has a price tag of 200+pts transport vehicle. Deep Strike? Say hello to my Plasma Cannon!

 

Heroic Sacrifice: Yeah right, no-one takes Brother Hood Champions and if they did I would just shoot the poor blighter for an easy KP... Apart from that it is highly situational.

 

Warp Quake: Meh, who is going to be deep striking against the GK much and when we do, do we really use teleport homers that much?

 

Holocaust: Yeah but Paladins kill our Marines pretty easily without it.

 

Cleansing Flame: See above only exchange the word Paladin for Purifier..

 

Fortitude: Another good power. Still, better to concentrate our firepower to kill their Dreads so doesn't ruin our game, only make our own bad luck (i.e. rolling a 1 or 2) even worse.

 

From this list above I can see some highly situational powers and some annoyingly useful powers. But forking out a 100pts on a model which dies so easily without an invulnerable save to GK (they don't even need to instant kill him it's that easy) is such a waste trying to shut down powers we can't even be sure of success of.

 

Thing is, our main strategy for defeating the GK will be out shoot them, probably at longer range. None of these powers really change that, except maybe Fortitude, Summoning and situationally Sanctuary. Strength assited anti-tank can hurt our Dreads counter assault but I kinda expect massed Psycannons to kill them anyway. But will these ruin our game neccessarily? I don't think it will. After all, other armies can beat GK and they don't have Psychic Hoods.

[TyrionTheImp]

Just mech up and the GK will immediatly stop laughing.. SM-GK hanging around in cover is my personal dream. I will outshoot them at any time. In my List I have 2x Combipreds, a Vindicator and a LR(Hammers).. AV13+AV14 isn´t something GK can deal with pretty easy. And that´s beside LC/PG razors, Speeders and Dreads..

 

Actually, psycannons have the same chance of penetrating AV13 as AV12. In fact they can never glance AV13 (7+6+D3 is a minimum of 14) and every single slot can take these, sometimes in numbers. I don't think AV13 is a problem except for MAYBE getting into range for it. Also, most AV13 front have 11 side and things like Interceptors won't give a crap about your front AV13.

 

AV14 is where the GK really struggle, but those only come up every so often and if they're playing MSU, you can roll up unload, assault with terminators, then next turn get shot up by the mass amounts of whatever they GKs have and they probably won't care all that much. I'm confused how you think 2 combi preds, a vindicator, and an LR can outshoot GK's considering they can field 6 Dreads pumping out 4 Twin-linked Strength 8 shots each per turn (half BS5) without really sacrificing much from the rest of the army. So they can't bring techmarines which aren't a terribly popular choice unless you're conversion beamer spamming, assassins which are cool and unique but 1 model per elite slot is meh in a small model count army, purifiers that can be made troops with crowe, but due to the homogeneous nature of the army aren't a terrible loss, or paladins which IMHO are bad anyways.

 

Not to mention you can really spam Heavy Bolter backs with accurate S6 shots and with Fortitude are likely to be shooting or dead.