How do we fight the Grey Knights?

[norngahl]

Just mech up and the GK will immediatly stop laughing.. SM-GK hanging around in cover is my personal dream. I will outshoot them at any time. In my List I have 2x Combipreds, a Vindicator and a LR(Hammers).. AV13+AV14 isn´t something GK can deal with pretty easy. And that´s beside LC/PG razors, Speeders and Dreads..

 

Actually, psycannons have the same chance of penetrating AV13 as AV12. In fact they can never glance AV13 (7+6+D3 is a minimum of 14) and every single slot can take these, sometimes in numbers. I don't think AV13 is a problem except for MAYBE getting into range for it. Also, most AV13 front have 11 side and things like Interceptors won't give a crap about your front AV13.

 

AV14 is where the GK really struggle, but those only come up every so often and if they're playing MSU, you can roll up unload, assault with terminators, then next turn get shot up by the mass amounts of whatever they GKs have and they probably won't care all that much. I'm confused how you think 2 combi preds, a vindicator, and an LR can outshoot GK's considering they can field 6 Dreads pumping out 4 Twin-linked Strength 8 shots each per turn (half BS5) without really sacrificing much from the rest of the army. So they can't bring techmarines which aren't a terribly popular choice unless you're conversion beamer spamming, assassins which are cool and unique but 1 model per elite slot is meh in a small model count army, purifiers that can be made troops with crowe, but due to the homogeneous nature of the army aren't a terrible loss, or paladins which IMHO are bad anyways.

 

Not to mention you can really spam Heavy Bolter backs with accurate S6 shots and with Fortitude are likely to be shooting or dead.

 

Everything that goes into shooting won´t assault me, meaning a small assault force gets even smaller. Heck that´s 990 points put into 6 Dreads.. There won´t be too much else (especially no Dreadnights and no Purificatores and I rather fear those than a Dreadnought), so I´d simply shoot the small dreads and then the venerable. Fine! Basically everyone could have made a 6 Rifledreads Army before.. but seemingly it had no real success, otherwise it would have been a viable army tactic widely spread. Even in the best case the army will still suck. Deploy your own Troops in the Raider and just KILL the other mans troops. Even if anything in my army (except the scoring AV14 raider) dies.. who cares when I´m the only one with troops sitting on an objective. In any other case, first ignore the troops and kill the dreads. 6 dreads with strengh 8 autocannon need 5 rounds of combined fire to take down the Raider (3 weapons + MM).. In this time, my army will have shot THEM to pieces.

 

I know that 6 Dreads with Psibolts CAN ruin your day when you are low armour MSU mech. But then again, it´s just a rock sizzor paper list. It´ll lose against other armies on a tourney. So who cares? When I know my enemy will be pure mech than I won´t put down a single model with AV but therefore as much bodies as I can and the other way round. But on a tournament I try to beat any armylist (if I´m not one of those "Let´s look if I get the right enemies today"-players). So this is no argument for me.

 

Really, that´s not the problem..

 

A much bigger problem (from my temporary point of view) will be a Inquisition List or Crowe+6x5Purificators with Psicannons in Rhinos. Scoring and a hail of fire + (!!!) power weapons in CC.. That´s not nice for regular SM to face. But then again, there will be other armies that can easily counter that. And of course this firepower is midfield.. If it comes down to shooting, range is a serious business.

 

But you can easily win against GK when they field a CC-SM army. That´s (IMO) a pure homerun.

[TyrionTheImp]

Grey Knights aren't an assault force. They're an everything force. Just each guy can do everything better than a Space Marine can. And I don't think a 6 Dread list will suffer against any particular list, 24 Strength 8 accurate shots can do a lot of damage to a lot of things, even if at 2000 points it's half your army, you've got a REALLY good gunline to start with.

 

Do I think it will be a common sight? No, but it is a possibility and one that should be mentioned. It seems like the book has many options based around what specifically you want to take because every slot has options for long range support and close range/assault in some way, this probably will mean diverse army lists and strategies.

 

The key part to remember though is that while GK's are better offensively, defensively they're no different. T4, 3+ Save and with normal SM tactics it won't be that big of a deal fighting them, since we can get more bodies to throw at them than they can throw at us, without really downsizing our own firepower.

 

As for your fears norngahl, Inquisition lists are more like wannabe IG guard lists without the tanks, and Crowe as an HQ is bad other than unlocking purifiers, and while Purifiers are better than Strike Squads, Strike Squads still have (in fact ALL GKs have) power weapons in CC. So if you're afraid of purifiers because of that, be afraid of strike squads, interceptors, terminators, and purgations too.

[DarkGuard]

On the subject of GK psychic powers and taking Libby's, I agree with Idaho. By the looks of it most people are going for Brother-Captain's and Grand Masters, especially when you consider they come with a potential S5 force weapon and a 2+/3++ save in combat with Captain stats as standard. Better than a Libby IMO. If we take that to be the case then the psychic powers we're stopping are Psychic Communion, which is only really useful in the first couple of turns of reserves, and Hammerhand. As for Fortitude, I was never a fan of stun lock. Seems like not doing the job properly to me. Now we need to ensure we do our job properly and blow up the vehicles rather than stun them every turn.

 

However, that's not to say that a psychic hood won't be useful. Armies that rely on Deep Strike may want an ability to block psychic powers due to the Strike squad's Warp Quake power. Furthermore, I wouldn't rule out a Brotherhood Champion's Heroic Sacrifice power. For those on a budget but want a Grey Knight they'll look at him, and he's not bad in combat. Also remember that unlike Crowe, normal Brotherhood Champions are ICs, meaning it's not so easy to shoot them down.

 

All in all, it sounds like it'll be interesting. I'm hoping to finally get some games in against Grey Knights, considering I'm back at my LGS for the holidays, so the advise on this thread should prove useful. I thank all of you who have so far contributed, and lets keep it up as we find out more things :).

[Brother Dylan]

I doubt you will ever see Brother Captains used to be honest, there is no reason not to pay the 25 points for Grand Strategy if you're going in that direction with the HQ choice. I echo previous posts here, expect to see Grand Masters, Librarians, or Inquisitors.

[ShinyRhino]

I doubt you will ever see Brother Captains used to be honest, there is no reason not to pay the 25 points for Grand Strategy if you're going in that direction with the HQ choice. I echo previous posts here, expect to see Grand Masters, Librarians, or Inquisitors.

 

That really depends on the player, and the build. A reserve-heavy force that will rely on timely arrival of units, or staggered waves will want the Brother Captain instead of the Grand Master. The ability to alter your reserve rolls up or down will be huge for armies that rely on deepstriking Terminators, Interceptors, and Dreadknights. Even Stormravens coming in will benefit from that bonus.

[Brother Valerius]

I doubt you will ever see Brother Captains used to be honest, there is no reason not to pay the 25 points for Grand Strategy if you're going in that direction with the HQ choice. I echo previous posts here, expect to see Grand Masters, Librarians, or Inquisitors.

 

That really depends on the player, and the build. A reserve-heavy force that will rely on timely arrival of units, or staggered waves will want the Brother Captain instead of the Grand Master. The ability to alter your reserve rolls up or down will be huge for armies that rely on deepstriking Terminators, Interceptors, and Dreadknights. Even Stormravens coming in will benefit from that bonus.

 

Grand Masters have that power as well.

[DarkGuard]

I doubt you will ever see Brother Captains used to be honest, there is no reason not to pay the 25 points for Grand Strategy if you're going in that direction with the HQ choice. I echo previous posts here, expect to see Grand Masters, Librarians, or Inquisitors.

 

That really depends on the player, and the build. A reserve-heavy force that will rely on timely arrival of units, or staggered waves will want the Brother Captain instead of the Grand Master. The ability to alter your reserve rolls up or down will be huge for armies that rely on deepstriking Terminators, Interceptors, and Dreadknights. Even Stormravens coming in will benefit from that bonus.

 

Grand Masters have that power as well.

 

Indeed they do. So I'd imagine that unless the player is strapped for points we'll see Grand Master's more than Brother-Captains. Of course, the one thing to be relieved about is that GMs and B-Cs need to be in combat to do what they do best, combat!. Libby's, on the other hand, are more multi-purpose and therefore are more of a danger while outside of combat. Of course, the former two could buy a psycannon...

[Something Wycked]

Firstly, a Captain or Master is massively more survivable than a Librarian. He has a decent Invulnerable save and higher initiative, so can take down a couple models before he goes down. It's not ideal being in assault, but if you have to you can still hit him hard enough to mop up remnants.

Massively more survivable? lol...

 

You are making the assumption that GK players will be taking Librarians. Taking a look at the Army list forum shows most 1500pts games consist of a GK Grand Master as sole HQ and this is because it is far and above the best option available.

Not making any assumptions other than the GK's have psychic powers that you want to stop. I for one won't be playing anyone from the B&C since nobody's nearby, so the army lists in there don't affect me. I'm actually kind of disappointed, Idaho- I've built up a lot of respect for you over numerous intelligent, common-sense posts you've made, but now you've said something is "far and above the best option available"... This is 40k. Everything is situational- every army, every player, every army list, down to every piece of terrain on every gaming table. YMMV. I know you're not suggesting that every codex has one be-all, end-all army list in it, but that's the logical conclusion of that line of thinking.

 

For the points of a GK Librarian you sure are having a weaker choice (still the same stats as our own Librarians) and that is fine by me if he gets off a few powers.

I'm not sure how Librarians are a "weaker" choice; though I will admit that their array of utility abilities certainly pales in comparison to the Captain's "I SMASH STUFF GOOD!" ;)

 

The Psychic Communion is great but after turn 2 the odds are in the GK player's favour of his reseves coming in anyway. And taking a Psychic hood just to stop this power is a little expensive. I know what might be said in reply to this: "yes but you can stop the other powers too".

 

Well technically yes, but like I said earlier we won't hardly see any Librarians unless the opponent uses them instead of GMs which I doubt very much seeing the points cost of the 2 Wound Librarian therefore what other powers are you going to stop? Hammer Hand or Astral Aim? Both powers which won't change much. You are going to get shot without Astral Aim and beaten up without Hammer Hand.

Are you really so certain that you "won't hardly see any Librarians"? Will you notify me, please, every time you play GK's so that I can be there when you face a GK Libby? :D

 

Comments inserted:

As for the actual powers (accepting the assumption we will see the Librarian of course);

 

Psychic Communion - Yes a good power, if the opponent has reserves and if the opponent doesn't roll a 4+ anyway (or better).

If the opponent has reserves and a Libby, he's taking this power. And a +1 is a +1, no matter what you roll.

 

Might of Titan: Scary until you realise it's assault based anyway which means death will be the end results for your force without this power anyway.

Is there a problem with dealing death that much more efficiently? And makes regular GK's effective against vehicles to boot? Who needs Krak grenades when you can make a whole squad act like they have Strength 6 meltabombs? And get to use them 3+ times each in that one assault, I might add, rather than just one.

 

Quicksilver: Yeah sounds good until we realise 2 things. 1) it's assault so we will die anyway and 2) there are plenty of cheap Halberds out there.

1) Yes, dying anyway, but not getting any attacks before you die so you won't even inflict any casualties and 2) this is better than a Halberd for 5 points for the entire squad instead of 5 points each. And sure, you can say if you count the cost of the libby, its much more expensive than that... Average the cost of a 195 point Libby over a 10 man squad and its only ~18 points per model- and that's not even a fair comparison because he can do so many things for the entire army. Librarians are force multipliers, especially GK libbies.

 

Sanctuary: Can't see much of a problem for us here.

Unless you're assault focused and/or happy to let the part of your army kitted for assault sit on their haunches for the game.

 

Shrouding: No way a problem when you consider cover is required for this. How many cover saves will the GK have especially when they are assaulting our positions? Situational really.

Assuming the GK's are going to assault you when they can outshoot you?

 

Summoning: Actually an awesome power, no denying it. Though it does mean the Librarian needs to get across the table and that usually has a price tag of 200+pts transport vehicle. Deep Strike? Say hello to my Plasma Cannon!

I run mine with a MM for 265. And lets not forget the magnifier that the LR is- since powers will be measured from the hull, extending the range of many of the Libby's powers. And of course you won't take the LR just for the Libby, so here comes Termies/Pallies in your face, while the Libby Summons fire support units to back them up and get some shots in before they assault...

 

Heroic Sacrifice: Yeah right, no-one takes Brother Hood Champions and if they did I would just shoot the poor blighter for an easy KP... Apart from that it is highly situational.

So I'm bringing a Libby and a Brotherhood Champion against you, got it. Thanks for telling me what you're not expecting ;) I suppose I'll stuff the Champion in the LR with the Termies and send them after your rock-hard Captain, and let your expensive HQ burn himself out on a 100 point model.

 

Warp Quake: Meh, who is going to be deep striking against the GK much and when we do, do we really use teleport homers that much?

The "who" are going to be people who are playing deep striking armies, and the "we" is every army that depends on DS should have teleport homers/icons/etc. Hope you don't get an unlucky scatter, and even if you don't, you're in the prime shooting band for the GK's next turn. Go to ground?

 

Holocaust: Yeah but Paladins kill our Marines pretty easily without it.

 

Cleansing Flame: See above only exchange the word Paladin for Purifier..

There's such a thing as too much dakka? I'm all for more efficient killing, I'm surprised you're not.

 

Fortitude: Another good power. Still, better to concentrate our firepower to kill their Dreads so doesn't ruin our game, only make our own bad luck (i.e. rolling a 1 or 2) even worse.

And if you have to concentrate fire to destroy vehicles because you can't leave one alone after you stun it, you're not doing as much to the army as a whole are you? Letting them have this power just makes them even more effective.

 

From this list above I can see some highly situational powers and some annoyingly useful powers. But forking out a 100pts on a model which dies so easily without an invulnerable save to GK (they don't even need to instant kill him it's that easy) is such a waste trying to shut down powers we can't even be sure of success of.

Everything is situational. Calling it "situational" doesn't mean its safe to ignore it. You act like 100 points is an expensive HQ lol... And you can't be sure that an IG player's shooting attacks will hit, either, but you do sit down in cover to try and negate it, don't you? GK powers have 2/3 to 3/4 chance to go off, which is certainly better odds than the 1/2 the IG have when shooting...

 

Thing is, our main strategy for defeating the GK will be out shoot them, probably at longer range. None of these powers really change that, except maybe Fortitude, Summoning and situationally Sanctuary. Strength assited anti-tank can hurt our Dreads counter assault but I kinda expect massed Psycannons to kill them anyway. But will these ruin our game neccessarily? I don't think it will. After all, other armies can beat GK and they don't have Psychic Hoods.

Not everyone plays a shooting army; not everyone plays a balanced army. Of course none of these will "ruin your game", but is it worth 100 points to partially negate one of the GK's big strengths? Obviously we think differently on that point. Once again, YMMV.

 

Or as I said before...

 

Rock/Paper/Scissors. Yes, the Libby can be countered, so can your Captain/Master. It all depends, doesn't it?

 

It all depends, doesn't it?

[DarkGuard]

Firstly, a Captain or Master is massively more survivable than a Librarian. He has a decent Invulnerable save and higher initiative, so can take down a couple models before he goes down. It's not ideal being in assault, but if you have to you can still hit him hard enough to mop up remnants.

Massively more survivable? lol...

 

Perhaps you'd like to qualify this statement? How is was Captain Idaho said funny and my the sounds of what you're saying, incorrect? Captain's have an extra wound over the Libby, and come with an invulnerable save as standard. You can give them a 2+ armour save for less, and give them a 3++ save for less than the Libby as well. The Captain get's expensive when you start giving him a relic blade etc, but at 130pts the Captain is more survivable than a 140pts Libby with the same save, due to wounds.

 

In combat as well, which is where most HQs will end up, the Captain has better WS, attacks and initiative, making him more survivable as he will hit more and faster. With proper equipment those hits will count. The amount of times my Libby has failed to wound with his force sword is uncountable.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think that there are some very valid points accross this thread, but Something Wycked, I think taking someones post and challenging each point to try and either dismantle an arguement or just to oppose the view is rather...rude? Perhaps that just me personally but it comes accross as an attack on Idaho more than anything to me.

 

When Idaho says: You are making the assumption that GK players will be taking Librarians. Taking a look at the Army list forum shows most 1500pts games consist of a GK Grand Master as sole HQ and this is because it is far and above the best option available.

 

 

I take that to mean hes looked into both what a GKGM can do and looked to see what other players are doing, then asking why. I don't know much about the new GK codex not possessing it and you make a decent point that YES libbys can indeed be very useful in certain roles, but overall I get the impression the GKGM is favoured as he can do a lot too and that he is often taken as he has more ups available GENERALLY than the libby does.

 

The only way we can get solid info on these GKs is after a while when people come up with a variety of concepts both in and out of the proverbial box. For now most of this is theorising and looking into what we can see...

[Captain Idaho]

I'm sure he isn't being rude, rather just passionate. :P

 

I'm actually kind of disappointed, Idaho- I've built up a lot of respect for you over numerous intelligent, common-sense posts you've made, but now you've said something is "far and above the best option available"...

 

Wow, I've gone from hero to zero in one post! B)

 

Don't get me wrong guys, a Librarian is always a reasonable investment, so if your list has such an HQ then it's fine to keep staying the course. However, modifying your list to include a Librarian isn't really a good idea, because you don't really lose much from not having the usual choice you run with and are used to using.

 

Personally not the biggest fan of Librarians as they die so easy and their powers are so situational combined with every army these days seeming to get something anti-Psyker. But that's just me and some people prefer the cheap versatility they can get into the list with a Librarian. Independent characters invariably get front line duties and the option to have a relatively tough model inside a unit can really slow down or provide problems for an opponent. Being forced to lose this option just for a situational, weaker option (in assaults and wounds) is likely to harm ones game play more than anything (when you are used to using a List with a Captain etc).

[DarkGuard]

Has anyone else picked up on the fact that the Culexus Assassin's animus speculum's attacks increase not just from nearby enemy psykers, but from all nearby psykers, including those on his side. Now while each unit of Grey Knights only counts as one psyker, once chucked into the middle of the army he could be looking at getting off at least 5 S5, AP1 shots a turn at BS8, enough to cripple any Marine squad in the open. And then you've got to consider you need to take a Ld test at 3D6 to even target him, he could be very hard to shift for a few turns. Could be something we see, and will have to dealt with accordingly.

 

Interestingly, IMO the best way to deal with him would be assault. Sounds crazy I know, considering we're attempting to avoid the rest of the Grey Knights, but we don't need to pass Ld to assault him and he has no power weapons. Plus a power fist will kill him in one hit if he fails his invulnerable save. Food for thought, as these guys can be dangerous, especially when you consider if we assault them then we're in the middle of the Grey Knight army. If anyone runs across these guys would you take the time to let us know how they, and you did.

[Aidoneus]

The Animus has always worked like that, and GK units have always counted as one psyker (because the Justicar was a psyker in the old codex), so this isn't really anything new. My guess is that people will get really excited by the prospect of "breaking" the Animus, realize that it's not actually that good, and soon abandon the Culexus and go back to using the other 3 assassins. This is because, no matter how many psykers are nearby, you still only have a 12" range with the animus, and so you still need to walk basically right up next to your opponent before you can do anything. Meanwhile, all those GKs you're taking just to up the number of shots from the Animus will, themselves, have been shooting and killing things for a full 2 turns before the Animus is in range, and so any infantry in the area are just going to be dead anyway. And even if they aren't yet dead, they're probably in charge range of those GK, with their shiny force weapons. In other words, the very things you need to take to make the Animus worthwhile are, themselves, far more useful than the Animus. Thus, why not skip the Culexus altogether?

 

Also, as a GK player, I can tell you that both the GM and Libbie are nice options. I have been seeing more lists with GMs in them than with Libbies, although it's not too far apart. Personally, I think the GM is actually the one who provides the better utility for the army as a whole, primarily due to his Grand Strategy and Psychic Communion. I get to make d3 units either Scoring or Scouts (or two other things that aren't as useful)? I get to either add or subtract 1 from all reserves rolls? Yes please!

[DarkGuard]

Ah forgive me then, I thought it only used to be enemy psykers in the last Codex, obviously didn't read it well enough. Of course, that's not to say the Culexus isn't bad, he's the ultimate counter-attack weapon. Well not ultimate, but he's good at it. Keeping him within range of a few Grey Knight units will result in his highly powerful animus speculum taking out a lot of models that look to threaten them when they get close. The fact that he's hard to target makes him better at this than the other units.

 

That being said, I will agree that the other three will be used more. Vindicares have always been a favourite and can be great game changers with their ability to take out power fists, meltaguns, invulnerable saves etc, while turbo=penetrator is nasty, only just today someone rolled 26 on armour pen using it.

 

The Eversor on the other hand is a combat monster with the abilities to match, and is more than capable of carving through many squads. Of course, you have to get him there, but Fleet should help with that.

 

Meanwhile, as I said earlier it is the Calidus I'm fearing the most. The ability to arrive anywhere on the battlefield next to your unit, without scattering but getting effectively two shots off is not nice. Fortunately they can't assault after, but when they're there they can be nasty, but not as good as the Eversor. That being said they excel at character hunting, and so we might see a few of these.

 

As for how to take them out, it would appear the Eversor can be avoided. The Vindicare only gets a maximum of 7 shots a game, so I'm not sure if it's worthy of massive attention. It can prove a nuisance, but isn't outright destructive. The Calidus will be trickier, as it can neutralise a couple of units when it enters play and will kill more afterwards. That being said ID weaponry will be handy, as would Null Zone if you decide to take a Librarian.

[Something Wycked]

Perhaps you'd like to qualify this statement?

You and Idaho are assuming the character is getting into combat- "which is where most HQs will end up" as you put it. Yes, when you compare a Captain to a Librarian for close combat potential, obviously the Captain wins that fight not just with better survivability but also in killing potential. But that is the only thing the Captain has that is better than the Librarian. The Captain is your cudgel that you smash things with. The Librarian is the toolbox with which you empower the rest of your army to perform to a higher level- as well as to defend it against enemy psykers.

 

I think that there are some very valid points accross this thread, but Something Wycked, I think taking someones post and challenging each point to try and either dismantle an arguement or just to oppose the view is rather...rude? Perhaps that just me personally but it comes accross as an attack on Idaho more than anything to me.

Doesn't strike me as rude, Idaho did it as well- it is simply thorough. :) We're all out for the best information possible here, and inaccuracies and absolutes irk me. Statements that are absolutes are almost always inaccurate. ;)

 

I'm sure he isn't being rude, rather just passionate. :)

You've got the right of it there, sir! :(

 

Apparently my list is completely opposite of yours, Idaho. I get the feeling that your list emphasizes assault and has a shooting element to support the assaulters. Mine is the mirror opposite.

 

Your last post there is really reasonable, I can appreciate telling people to not change tactics and sticking to their bread and butter. I disagree with the "don't really lose much", but I understand where you're coming from with it- a Librarian wouldn't be able to take the place of the Captain in your list. I use my people completely different. Having a Captain sitting around my shooting units and looking scary just doesn't work as well as a Librarian throwing powers around and nullifying powers thrown his way, and I'm really looking forward to blunting the psychic edge of a Grey Knight attack :D

[Brother Dylan]

In my opinion the Grandmaster is the better choice. The ability to make almost everyone unit scoring in a 1500 list is really powerful. He is less reliant on psychic powers mean less can go wrong if your opponent is fielding psychic defense, and I'm expecting a surge in psychic defenses in all comers lists for a bit. Its not like the grandmaster is without squad utility either with the ability to take rad grenades and defensive grenades.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah the mistake I made was I reviewed the need for a Librarian from my own perspective and the likes of others who run Captains/Masters/Special Characters etc, not stating clearly the position I was coming from was based upon and lumping everyone into the same category. An error an experienced member of the board should never really make as it may give someone the wrong impression of the game and hence bad advice!

 

We do seem to run our Space Marines so differently. I’m an aggressive player, utilising Honour Guard supported by Tactical Marines (more scoring bodies for the grinder!) and plenty of vehicle based firepower. The solid Independent character is a solid core which enhances my offensive capacity and I think many people play like that.

 

And of course your method is popular as well, so in summary perhaps it is best to say;

 

People should never fundamentally change the way they build and play a list to something they are uncomfortable with unless there is a extremely good reason. (like rules changes etc) Codex Grey Knights is good and all, but there really isn’t a need to rush to specialise your list to beat them specifically. Just hone your list so it is balanced enough to oppose them as well as other armies.

 

Incidently, I'm more worried about the Rad grenades than anything else, except maybe the Rifleman Dreads with Psybolts :D

[waaanial00]

After a discussion with a friend about his clash against his sons GK I have to admit that the two things which worry me are the crazy grenades (the ones which potentially make you attack your own squad) and the rad grenades.

 

They certainly have been equipped with the tools to roll a lot of the more commonly taken armies which are kicking around.

[ShinyRhino]

How many points is that Crowe+6 Minimum Purifiers in Rhinos build? Rhinos are a little too easy to kill/stun to really worry about, especially against other shooting armies.

The book doesn't lend itself to monobuilds, from what I've absorbed thus far.

[maturin]

Shiny - you can stun GK rhinos, but they won't stay stunned, thanks to their psychic power. They'll just recover themselves and move along as if nothing had happened.

 

You can still kill them as easily.

[Brother Valerius]

Crowe = 150, 6-man purifier squad (with Rhino and nothing else) = 184. Don't know how many squads (and what, if any options) you were talking, but that's how many points for each.

 

I think whatever else you do, you should not count on stunning/shaking GK vehicles. Yes, it's possible to fail the psychic test, but that's only a 1/12 chance (if I mathed it out right... you need an 11 or 12 to fail). Most of the time, that shaken and stunned result will roll right off because of Fortitude. It's still not hard to kill Rhinos, of course.

[DarkGuard]

Perhaps you'd like to qualify this statement?

You and Idaho are assuming the character is getting into combat- "which is where most HQs will end up" as you put it. Yes, when you compare a Captain to a Librarian for close combat potential, obviously the Captain wins that fight not just with better survivability but also in killing potential. But that is the only thing the Captain has that is better than the Librarian. The Captain is your cudgel that you smash things with. The Librarian is the toolbox with which you empower the rest of your army to perform to a higher level- as well as to defend it against enemy psykers.

 

Fair enough, I have nothing against the Libby personally. In fact, until recently it was my go to HQ for Marines. Null Zone and Avenger were awesome, and he really contributed more to my army than my Captain, as much as I like my Captain. However, people then started taking Libbys, Runes of Warding etc, realising how good they were and how they could shut down my Libby. I now have lots of trouble getting off my own powers while shutting down my opponents, so my Libby normally only contributes in the assault phase now, which my Captain (or Vulkan if competitive) can do better in. I daresay if I kill enough weak psykers in combat everything will go full circle as people try to combat my Captain with their own CC HQs and I can use my Libby again ;).

 

EDIT: @waaanial00, I saw those two, and a friend of mine has been talking non stop about his Grand Master with master-crafted force sword, digi weapons and rad grenades for only 200pts. To be fair, it sounds nasty, as if he uses Hammerhand then in the first round of assault against Marines he's wounding on 2s. Worst news for GEQ as he doesn't even need to pass Hammerhand to wound on 2s. Plus he has a 2+/3++ save in combat so hard to take out.

 

I'm personally not too worried about the psychotroke grenades, the effects are too random and I can't see my opponent rolling a 6 too many times. Besides, you need to fail your Initiative test to be affected, so only a small handful of Marines should be affected.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Just to throw my two cents in to this discussion... I think being that one of the major problems with the Grey Knights is their small army size, a good list could somewhat mitigate that disadvantage by finding coherency between the HQ and other parts of the army in a way that most armies generally don't. Compare Captains/Chapter Masters vs. Brother-Captains/Grand Masters... its obvious why you'd take a Space Marine Captain, and the Brother-Captain is generally the Terminator armored equivalent. However, when moving up to the next level, you'd take the Chapter Master for the option of Honour Guard (and possibly an orbital strike though I doubt it)... while on the other hand, you could take a Grand Master to literally transform your list every single game. The Grand Strategy special rule is so amazing if used correctly it turns an otherwise disadvantaged Grey Knights field presence to one that suits each mission very strongly. Due to its army buffing utility its probably the ultimate all-comers HQ selection. Playing multiple objectives? Turn your 10 man Purifier squad and your 10 man Interceptor squad into scoring units, and combat squad them. Playing kill points against an army that you need to get in their face quickly? Give your Interceptors and teleporting Dreadknight scout and shunt them across the table. What about an army that's going to assault the hell out of you? Now your Purifiers have counter-attack. Good luck getting through that.

 

Librarians have this same kind of utility and that's why their so popular but I'm wary of them due to the fact that the Grand Master is much more lethal individually and the amount of anti-psyker stuff that's bound to be out there now. If the Librarian gets shut down, his utility drops dramatically... while you can't shut down the Grand Strategy. It's there and it's going nowhere. On the flip side, the area where I can see Librarians truly thriving is using the Shrouding in a Stormraven. It's still more of a one trick pony but assuming your enemy doesn't have the ability to shut down the Librarian casting the Shrouding, that Stormraven is going to be a royal pain in the ass to deal with and takes care a large part of the Grey Knights mobility problem.

[Something Wycked]

People should never fundamentally change the way they build and play a list to something they are uncomfortable with unless there is a extremely good reason. (like rules changes etc) Codex Grey Knights is good and all, but there really isn’t a need to rush to specialise your list to beat them specifically. Just hone your list so it is balanced enough to oppose them as well as other armies.

Beautifully said.

 

As for me, I've never played the same list twice (obviously I've never been to a tourney ) I've played with so many list variations that changing a list around for a codex is just second nature.

 

Incidently, I'm more worried about the Rad grenades than anything else, except maybe the Rifleman Dreads with Psybolts ;)

Yep, Rad grenades + Hammerhand = win. Wound MEQ on 2+, and inflict ID to anything lesser without needing to activate NFW. Add a Libby with MoT and Quicksilver to that squad, and suddenly the squad is strength 6 + 2d6 armor penetration at init 10- good night walkers ;) Psyfleman Dreads are awesome for cramping the style of any army relying on Rhinos/Razors or speeders, or even bikes. Sure, you get your saves, but Attack Bikes really don't like 4 twin linked ID shots.

 

@ Drunk Guardian- that is perhaps the most eloquent and clear explanation of how powerful the GKGM is... and that argument would make me think long and hard about not taking the Libby, instead taking the GKGM...

[Brother Rathul]

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