209 replies to this topic

[Gillyfish]

Lots and lots of interesting discussion here. Let's try to tie it down a little though. I will set up a vote with the following questions in it:

1. Do you think assault squads should have options to make them more shooty?

Yes, all squad members should be able to have a ranged weapon (i.e. bolter or storm bolter)
No
Yes, but this should be limited in number and weaponry (only some marines should be able to take a longer-ranged weapon)

2. Do you think assault squads should have more close combat options (i.e. power swords, Unforgiven-specific cc weapon, power fists etc.)

Yes
No
Yes, but limited in numbers.

3. Do you think additional special rules should be added to assault squads to improve their capabilities?

Yes
No


That should give us some parameters to work within. A further vote can then be used to establish the precise details.

[Grand Master Raziel]

Gillyfish, if you don't mind me saying so, the way you have the questions organized gives each question two "Yes" replies. I think it'd be more clear if you put the questions like so:

1: Do you think the special weapon troopers in the Assault Squad should have access to a wider range of weapons?
2: Do you think regular troopers should be upgradeable to carry bolters?
3: Do you think regular troopers should be upgradeable to carry storm bolters?
* (2 and 3 could conceivably be merged to one question and the results dealt with later)

4: Do you think special weapon troopers in the Assault Squad should have access to close combat upgrades?
5: Do you think regular troopers should have access to close combat upgrades?

6: Do you think added special rules should be added to Assault Squads to increase their capabilities?

[Octavulg]

Remember, there are only two poll types: pick from a list or up to three questions.

[shabbadoo]

For the big list version poll you need to have a "yay" option and a "nay" option for each thing. As options have already been discussed, questions like "Should they have more weapon options?" and "Should they be more shooty?" are not even necessary. Jut put in the added weapon options of whatever type, and how they would be available, and just let people vote on them. Everything will then sort itself out.

Edited by shabbadoo, 14 July 2011 - 07:55 AM.

[Gillyfish]

Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. I will put up the poll later today.

[Bryan Blaire]

Okay, so in the spirit of progress on this, what exactly is making the assault squad members less "assaulty" than everything else with a CC focus?

Terminators are obviously in Terminator armor. Tyranids are either hording up and getting a massive amount of attacks even though they aren't generally that great. Codex Space Marines are just on par with DA Assault Marines, but they have the added bonus of flamers. I don't have Orks, Guard or any Chaos. Tau aren't any good at CC, but I know the Kroot are supposed to be better, I just don't know for sure if they have any special stuff that modifies their CC ability. Space Wolves get an extra attack on the charge, otherwise they are effectively the same, but with a lower WS, and they get the counter-charge attack as well. Other thoughts?

[shabbadoo]

Okay, so in the spirit of progress on this, what exactly is making the assault squad members less "assaulty" than everything else with a CC focus?

Not a single thing.

Here is how it works with various units:

Orks- are cheap, have crap armor and go last usually, but whatever is left will throw a lot of attacks. They hope to win combat by dishing out enough damage in return to stay in the fight.

Tyranids- are cheap, have crap armor, usually strike simultaneously or first, throw an average # attacks for an assault unit. They hope their numbers will keep then in the fight.

Assault Marines- are moderately expensive, have good armor, usually strike simultaneously or first, throw an average # attacks for an assault unit. They rely on their overall quality to keep them in fight, as they will usually be outnumbered.

You can see that the variables fluctuate from unit to unit, but each unit remains viable in its own way. Basic Assault Marines stack up well to other basic Assault units.

Edited by shabbadoo, 15 July 2011 - 04:07 AM.

[Grand Master Raziel]

I respectfully disagree with shabbadoo. Assault Squads do not currently stack up particularly well as an assault unit. My personal yardstick for what seperates a genuine assault unit from a pretender or non-contender is number of attacks standing still. In order to qualify as a genuine assault unit, the troopers have to swing at least 3 attacks standing still. So, pistol+ccw isn't enough to make a unit an assault unit. They have to have 2 attacks in their profile and pistol+ccw before they start to rate. So, Assault Squads aren't really an assault unit, and this is where people run into trouble with them, because they think they are and try to use them accordingly. Units that are genuine assault units: Company Vets with pistol+ccw, Khorne Berserkers, Striking Scorpions, Ork Slugga Boyz, to name a few.

I will admit, the 3-attacks thing is not an all-encompassing rule. There are units that have less attacks that qualify, but they usually have some other significant assault-based features. Howling Banshees, for instance, fall short of the 3-attacks rule, but always go first and ignore armor saves. THSS Assault Terminators - this should be pretty obvious.

Assault Squads don't have the volume of attacks to run with real assault units and they don't have any kind of mitigating factors to make up for this. They're basically just Tactical Marines with an extra attack each, and Tac Marines are regarded as pretty hopeless in assault. What Assault Marines really have going for them is mobility. Their jump packs let them move twice as fast as foot infantry, along with going over terrain that would slow or stop ground units. This lets you get them to where you want them more quickly and reliably than a foot unit or a unit dependant on a transport for mobility. This makes it easier to control whether the Assault Squad is going to get stuck in or not and usually will enable you to be the one initiating the assault, but this isn't enough to overcome their basic mediocrity once in the assault. Attack a genuine assault unit with them, and they're likely to lose. The only time an Assault Squad is likely to win when it gets stuck in wtih a real assault unit is when they're finishing off an already weakened unit.

[Stobz]

Totally agree, their mobility is all they have extra, they need to be cheaper(even more than BA, due to their upgrades/troop status/FC/FnP/Fearless etc) or boosted (I prefer Shabbs excellent rending swords idea, leaving PW to Vets/DWS etc.)

2c
s

Edited by Stobz, 15 July 2011 - 05:00 AM.

[shabbadoo]

The best standard unit stat line and armor in the game sort of are mitigating factors, as it mobility than can increase your attack by +50% due to charging. That mobility also means more easily getting into the optimal position to use special weapons, and taken with the other it all goes to the overall offensive capabilities and survivability of the unit. Kind of important factors those. It is not just about # Attacks standing still, and anybody who reduces it all to that has blinders on.

[Hemal]

I'd suggest that Assault units ought to be able to outfight striking scorps (same WS, same S, higher T, same save) due to having ATSKNF, higher mobility and access to a Power weapon n teh sarge as well as special wepaons.. The best all-out assault units (including Incubi) are silly expensive in relation to SM assault squads - of course there is no comparison in terms of combat potential, but the SM are definitely more survivable.
An assault unit doesn't have to be great at CC -especially when a SM squad is so good a close quarters firefights and can also look after itself reasonably well. I'm merely suggesting that this aspect ought to be somehow augmented without compromising CC ability to a greater extent.

[Gillyfish]

Well let's look at them in the context of the rest of the army.

If you look at the concept of the Codex marine army, it's actually more oriented towards shooting than close combat. That doesn't mean it hasn't got good assault units - it has- but the backbone of the army is shooting from tactical squads and supporting units. In that context, assault squads work as mobile firepower and counter-assault units. They don't normally spearhead an assault unless there is a force multiplier (like a Chaplain) present. In addition, usually a standard marine army will only contain one assault squad. Blood Angels change this focus so that they can hit with multiple squads, overwhelming a defensive gunline and following up with other cc oriented units. It's the latter that will do most of the killing, but the standard assault squads will tie up an opponent and prevent the unit from countering.

Conversely, the Dark Angels (according to our themes) use the precise application of firepower combined with a stubborn determination to not give up. The Ravenwing arguably fit this idea best - zooming around the table to lend their firepower to where it's most needed. Should assault squads fulfil the same role or should they fit into the counter-charge category, as they do with codex marine armies? We need to establish their role within the context fo the army before we apply special rules.

I have used assault squads for a number of years and they were arguably at their most effective in early 4th edition, when you could have a stubborn sergeant and they could roll up an entire flank through sweeping advances. Now that this is no longer possible, their effectiveness is limited, but they can still work as an effective tar-pit unit. Personally, I'm not sure that hit and run fits the image of the Unforgiven (surely they never run away?). But we could have something that reflects their determination - maybe they won't break on the turn they charge, even if the result goes against them? There are a number of options, but we need to make sure it fits the role of the unit. I see them playing a supportive role in the Unforgiven armies, rather than spearheading an assault.

[Hemal]

With that in mind I see no reason why combat shields at +2pts is not an option. Resilience and tarpit abaility? Check.
Perhaps instead FNP on teh turn they charge - "knightly fury" or something similar though this is probably more BT in focus...

[Grand Master Raziel]

The best standard unit stat line and armor in the game sort of are mitigating factors, as it mobility than can increase your attack by +50% due to charging. That mobility also means more easily getting into the optimal position to use special weapons, and taken with the other it all goes to the overall offensive capabilities and survivability of the unit. Kind of important factors those. It is not just about # Attacks standing still, and anybody who reduces it all to that has blinders on.

I'm pretty sure I covered other considerations in my previous post, but in considering whether a unit is an assault unit or not, you should look for number of attacks first, and if the unit in question doesn't have the number of attacks per model to rate, then you start looking for other assault-related considerations. Assault Squads don't have either the number of attacks or other assault-related abilities to compensate for not having the necessary volume of attacks. They've got the mobility to pick and choose their fights, but mobility alone doesn't make up for their deficiencies as an assault unit. If they were named in accordance with their actual role, they'd be called "Rapid Reaction Squads", but that doesn't roll off the tongue as easily. So, accuracy gets sacrificed for pithiness.

An assault unit doesn't have to be great at CC -especially when a SM squad is so good a close quarters firefights and can also look after itself reasonably well.

Are you talking about some other kind of squad here? Last I checked, Assault Squads were pretty anemic at firefights, especially ours.

If you look at the concept of the Codex marine army, it's actually more oriented towards shooting than close combat. That doesn't mean it hasn't got good assault units - it has- but the backbone of the army is shooting from tactical squads and supporting units. In that context, assault squads work as mobile firepower and counter-assault units.

I have to disagree with your mobile firepower statement. A few pistols doesn't amount to much in the way of firepower, even if a couple of them are plasma pistols. If they could take so much as flames, then you'd have something.

Personally, I'm not sure that hit and run fits the image of the Unforgiven (surely they never run away?).

I don't think of it as running away so much as coordinating with the rest of their army. As you pointed out yourself, Assault Squads aren't the true assault element of a well-constructed force. Dark Angels being more deliberate and methodical than Blood Angels, the Marines in the Assault Squads would understand this and not feel compelled to personally cut down with their chainswords every single enemy in front of them. If suddenly activating their jump packs and jetting clear of the fight leaves the opposing unit to get cut down in a crossfire, that's a win for the Lion, and that's what matters.

The idea has been put forth that DA Assault Squads have the option to significantly boost their firepower. Some DA enthusiasts are against this. Okay, fine. If we don't want to go that route, then Assault Squads need some other advantage to make them rate inclusion in a good list (Note: I think vanilla Assault Squads are also a sub-par unit, but improving them up to adequacy isn't a topic for a DA thread). If we give them enhanced assault ability, then we step on the toes of BA/BT/SW players, whose schticks have (at least since 3rd edition) always been more assault-based than ours. So, if we're starting with the design consideration of making the chapter lean more towards application of firepower and we're trying to make Assault Squads mesh with this consideration without overtly increasing their firepower beyond what a vanilla Assault Squad carries, then Hit And Run becomes not only the logical choice for them, it's pretty much the only one that'd be worth half-a-damn. It's the only ability that would let them synergize well with a firepower-based force. Anything that keeps them in combat without killing the enemy faster just protects the unit they're in combat with from our shooting, and that's no good. Hit And Run denies the opponent the ability to hide from our firepower by staying stuck in with our Assault Squads.

[Gillyfish]

I have to disagree with your mobile firepower statement. A few pistols doesn't amount to much in the way of firepower, even if a couple of them are plasma pistols. If they could take so much as flames, then you'd have something.

Hey, I didn't say they were good at it!

Actually, it's a fir point. I see them more as a counter-charge unit, used to clear lines, tie-up shooty units and finish off below strength enemies. That said, the firepower element should not be completely discounted; they can be used to flush out Tau crisis suits and harass the enemy backline. Even the rear armour of tanks can be targeted. BUT, it isn't necessarily their primary focus.

I don't think of it as running away so much as coordinating with the rest of their army. As you pointed out yourself, Assault Squads aren't the true assault element of a well-constructed force. Dark Angels being more deliberate and methodical than Blood Angels, the Marines in the Assault Squads would understand this and not feel compelled to personally cut down with their chainswords every single enemy in front of them. If suddenly activating their jump packs and jetting clear of the fight leaves the opposing unit to get cut down in a crossfire, that's a win for the Lion, and that's what matters.

That's a fair point. I wasn't suggesting that my view was right, so much as that I think we need to think of how they operate within the context of the army. What will fit with the Unforgiven? How does it differ from Codex marines? Does it need to? These are the questions I think we need to get at. If hit and run is the best available option, then so be it. I think you do make a good case for it.

[Brother Landrain]

Hit and run. With full storm shields and a parry ability.
Jump in lock a unit down.
Have survivable saves.
Jump out when the heavy firepower gets in range.

[shabbadoo]

Hit and run. With full storm shields and a parry ability.
Jump in lock a unit down.
Have survivable saves.
Jump out when the heavy firepower gets in range.

You are talking for Scouts, right, cuz that would be way too crappy for a standard Assault Squad.

[Brother Landrain]

Hit and run. With full storm shields and a parry ability.
Jump in lock a unit down.
Have survivable saves.
Jump out when the heavy firepower gets in range.

You are talking for Scouts, right, cuz that would be way too crappy for a standard Assault Squad.

Sorry but a standard assault unit is already a crappy close combat unit...

Why do I say that?

For a CC unit:
Their WS is not exceptional...
Their Initiative is not exceptional...
Their Strength is not exceptional...
Their Toughness is not exceptional...
Thier Attacks are not exceptional...
Thier Armor is not exceptional...
They have no special rules to help them in any way...

The are all good, but that does not make them GOOD when fighting a true CC unit.

In order to be good at CC, a unit needs some advantage.

Sure a Run of the Mill Space Marine Assault Squad (RotMSMAS) has an advantage when assaulting an IG unit, or a tau fire warrior unit, etc. Or in other words, they can beat up on other armies NON-CC oriented units. I like to think of them as the 40K Schoolyard bullies, they are big and nasty as long as their target is feeble and weak...

But against a dedicated CC unit the RotMSMAS just doesn't cut it.

This is one of my major reasons for suggesting and pushing the shooty jump pack squad idea.

Because space marines are VERY GOOD at shooting, hitting 66% of the time, and not as relatively good at assault.

The ability to use jump packs for their mobility means that they can be even more effective shooting.

Why? easier to get into range, easier to stay out of assault range.

So if it is so important that we keep the RotMSMAS a dedicated CC unit, something needs to change.

So without increasing the lethality of the RotMSMAS by giving them a high init, or extra attacks, or all special weapons, or enhanced close combat rules, which would indirectly take away from the SW/BT/BA and their focus on CC, instead my suggestion increases their survivability in close combat, and gives them a way to break from close combat at will. This combination of abilities, would alllow them to work with other units to further develop our Theme (The Application of Overwhelming Firepower).

Giving Storm Shields, would give them exceptional Armor with 3++.
Giving them a Parry ability, would limit the enemies potential damage output.
Heck, might as well throw in Feel no pain, to give them a second save.
And Fleet, to increase their threat Range.
With Stubborn, their possibility of breaking is also limited greatly.

These five things would allow the unit to get in fast using their jump packs with an enemy unit, and lock it down in close combat.

Then when the other units are in optimal position to fire on the unit, the Assault squad breaks from combat and leaves the enemy sitting out in the open to be riddled by the cleansing fire of the holy bolter.

This would a completely new and in my opinion unique and probably very effective tactic, especially against enemy deathstar units.

So here is an idea...

Unforgiven Entanglement Squad - 200 pts

Stats:
• Marine 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+
• VetSgt 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+
• Apothecary 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+

Unit Composition:
• 3 Marines
• 1 Apothecary
• 1 Veteran Sergeant

Unit Type:
• Jump Infantry

Wargear:
• Power armour
• Dark Angel Assault Sword
• Storm Shield
• Jump pack
• Defensive Grenades
• The Apothecary has a Narthecium

Special Rules:
• And They Shall Know No Fear
• Stubborn
• Combat Squads
• Feel No Pain
• Fleet
• Hit and Run
• Deep Strike

Options:
• Add up to five Space Marines +40 pts per model
• Any Model may replace their Dark Angel Assault Sword with:
- Power Sword + 5 pts
• The Space Marine Sergeant can replace his Dark Angel Assault Sword with:
- Power Fist + 15
- Relic Blade + 20

Dedicated Transport:
• None

The Dark Angel Assault Sword is a Close combat weapon with Rending and Parry.

Parry: In the assault phase a model with parry may attempt to turn aside one wound before saving throws are made. After wounds have been allocated and before saving throws are made, a model with parry makes a roll to hit against the enemy. If the model with parry 'hits' one wound is removed, and saving throws are made against the remaining wounds as normal. A model may only parry one wound a round.

Edited by Brother Landrain, 16 July 2011 - 02:53 PM.

[Isiah]

But against a dedicated CC unit the RotMSMAS just doesn't cut it.

SM assault units were only ever designed to be average at best. Why should the Unforgiven be any better??

This is one of my major reasons for suggesting and pushing the shooty jump pack squad idea.

Because space marines are VERY GOOD at shooting, hitting 66% of the time, and not as relatively good at assault.

The ability to use jump packs for their mobility means that they can be even more effective shooting.

I agree with all this. My view is that DA assault squads aren't designed to be the ultimate cc machines – that's what Veteran squads are for (with an IC attached). The highly mobile shooty transport-independent SM unit fits well within our themes.

On the other hand we go for broke: other than bolt pistols, no shooting weapon at all, but power sword options across the unit.

I don't think we can mix the two – as essentially we'd then be treading on veteran squad toes.

Cheers
I

[Brother Landrain]

But against a dedicated CC unit the RotMSMAS just doesn't cut it.

SM assault units were only ever designed to be average at best. Why should the Unforgiven be any better??
...
I agree with all this. My view is that DA assault squads aren't designed to be the ultimate cc machines – that's what Veteran squads are for (with an IC attached). The highly mobile shooty transport-independent SM unit fits well within our themes.
...
On the other hand we go for broke: other than bolt pistols, no shooting weapon at all, but power sword options across the unit.
...

Notice, I didnt even give them bolt pistola
I love the thought of sword and shield armed troops falling from the sky...

[Stobz]

But against a dedicated CC unit the RotMSMAS just doesn't cut it.

SM assault units were only ever designed to be average at best. Why should the Unforgiven be any better??
...
I agree with all this. My view is that DA assault squads aren't designed to be the ultimate cc machines – that's what Veteran squads are for (with an IC attached). The highly mobile shooty transport-independent SM unit fits well within our themes.
...
On the other hand we go for broke: other than bolt pistols, no shooting weapon at all, but power sword options across the unit.
...

Notice, I didnt even give them bolt pistola
I love the thought of sword and shield armed troops falling from the sky...

No extra attack? NO ranged weapon? the unit has potential but I'm not sold, sorry.

s

[Isiah]

Yeah I'd say leaving out the bolt pistols would be an omission too far. Let's not go too mad eh

[shabbadoo]

The are all good, but that does not make them GOOD when fighting a true CC unit.

What exactly are are of these "true" close combat units that leave Assault Marines as a smoking pile at the starting line? There are only a few armies whose stats and equipment even compare to that of even the slowly Assault Marine. The idea very much is that, but simply replacing a Tactical Marines's bolter with a ccw and giving him a jump pack, he immediately becomes an effective assault trooper, and that is the case. By Imperial standards, a Guardsman with a laspistol, ccw, and flak armor is the bottom tier assault trooper. An Assault Marine is quite a bit more than that. In comparison, the Assault Marine is a brutal arse kicker. Ask a Tactical Marines whether he would want to engage an Assault Marine in close combat or at range, and the answer is going to obvious. Slightly more than average close combat abilities among space marines, and way above average when compared to most other armies. Space marines are not average, but above average. 3's in WS, BS, S, T, and I and a Ld of 7 are considered average. As to armor saves, a 4+ save is the average. The space marine has one better in every category. For nonhuman races, no basic trooper even comes comparably close to the basic space marine stat/equipment-wise, and their elite units are only about equivalent stat-wise, having something that might be slightly better, but having other thing(s) that are slightly worse. The only difference is that those elite unit will usually have access to better equipment. These aren't supposed to be movie marines. Overall, what to Raptors have over them? What do Skyclaw Assault packs have over them? What do Ork Slugga Boyz have over them? What do Hormagaunts have over them? Not much, if anything, and that is the point. They all stand up to each other rather equitably. Just basic units, doing their thing.

"Unforgiven Entanglement Squad" I find that very funny. I guess "Unforgiven Tarpit Squad" would have been a bit too much.

SM assault units were only ever designed to be average at best. Why should the Unforgiven be any better??

They of course shouldn't be any better. To get better you have to go to the more elite units, which is as it should be. This is supposed to be a basic unit, and a basic space marine units kick the snot out of most other army's basic units, which again is as it should be.

Edited by shabbadoo, 17 July 2011 - 02:58 AM.

[Brother Landrain]

The are all good, but that does not make them GOOD when fighting a true CC unit.

What exactly are are of these "true" close combat units that leave Assault Marines as a smoking pile at the starting line?

for example:

Genestealers...
Harlequins...
Dark Eldar Chicks...
Death Company...
Thunderpuppies...
Orks have a unit that does also...(cant recall name, but the orks do it a lil differently than the others, they use brutality and toughness)

I know there are more, but I do not have all the 5th edition codexs.

The ones I am pretty sure do not are IG and Tau.
Not sure about necrons.

Basically any unit with 5+ Init, 5+ WS, 3+ attacks, High Strength or access to a lot of NO-Save/Rending CC weapons, such as pwer weapons, harlie-Kisses, scything talons, etc...Or with an assortment of Special rules, FC, CA etc.

Edited by Brother Landrain, 17 July 2011 - 04:08 AM.

[Octavulg]

And then there's the simple dimension of numbers - you can be a lot worse than an Assault Marine and still be dangerous if there's three times as many of you.