209 replies to this topic

[MadDoc]

What exactly are are of these "true" close combat units that leave Assault Marines as a smoking pile at the starting line?

for example:

All of your examples are subject to the checks and balances shabbadoo raised earlier, moreover...

Genestealers...

Poor armour and expensive upgrades. Also, according to the background they should be better than most things in close combat. Not that I ever expect you to let the facts of the background trouble you.

Harlequins...

Elites choice, without upgrades these cost the same per model as Assault Marines (4 points more to get Rending weapons) and they're Toughness 3, have a 5+ inv save and aren't as mobile as Assault Squads. Also, according to the fluff they should be better than Assault Marines...

Dark Eldar Chicks...

Toughness 3, 6+ armour save (4+ dodge, whoopy), expensive upgrades, NO Rending, only Hekatrix gets power weapon (or power weapon like upgrades).

Death Company...

More expensive than Assault Marines, expensive upgrades, almost double the cost per model of an Assault Marine if given a jump pack... and they're 0-1.

Thunderpuppies...

Over double the cost of an Assault Marine per model, expensive upgrades, and capped at 5 models.

Orks have a unit that does also...(cant recall name, but the orks do it a lil differently than the others, they use brutality and toughness)

The only unit in the Ork Codex thats better than Assault Marines model for model are Nobs and Meganobs, which are Elites choices (one can be included as Troops if the army includes a Warboss).

I know there are more, but I do not have all the 5th edition codexs.

If you can't list them, don't ask us to assume that they're there.

The ones I am pretty sure do not are IG and Tau.
Not sure about necrons.

Basically any unit with 5+ Init, 5+ WS, 3+ attacks, High Strength or access to a lot of NO-Save/Rending CC weapons, such as pwer weapons, harlie-Kisses, scything talons, etc...Or with an assortment of Special rules, FC, CA etc.

For me this is about making a fluffy unit, not a beat all comers tar-pit unit of doom. Meaning there will be units out there better than it, but they're still one of the best all around cc units pound for pound.

If this is about a proper fluffy DA Assault Squad thats one thing, but what alot of people are asking for goes way beyond that, its diving headlong into uber unit of Doom territory.

People investing so much time and energy on units like this (which should be a quick and simple excercise in copy, paste and substitution) rather than sorting this quickly and moving on to more interesting new/uniquely DA units, seems like a massive waste to me.

Edited by MadDoc, 17 July 2011 - 09:03 AM.

[shabbadoo]

And then there's the simple dimension of numbers - you can be a lot worse than an Assault Marine and still be dangerous if there's three times as many of you.

The same can be said of Assault Marines fighting units from Brother Landrain's list costing costing 2-3 times what they do.

Basically any unit with 5+ Init, 5+ WS, 3+ attacks, High Strength or access to a lot of NO-Save/Rending CC weapons, such as power weapons, harlie-Kisses, scything talons, etc...Or with an assortment of Special rules, FC, CA etc.

And why exactly do you think that basic Assault Marines should be have awesome stuff like these mostly top echelon elite units from other armies have, rather than have to rely on tactics and simple weight of numbers just like lesser quality units must when fighting the Assault Marines themselves?

Might as well wait for the poll to close and the votes to be tabulated before doing much else here, particularly discussing any options that are getting the snot kicked out of them in the poll.

Edited by shabbadoo, 17 July 2011 - 09:13 AM.

[Brother Landrain]

What exactly are are of these "true" close combat units that leave Assault Marines as a smoking pile at the starting line?

for example:

All of your examples are subject to the checks and balances shabbadoo raised earlier, moreover...

Genestealers...

Poor armour and expensive upgrades. Also, according to the background they should be better than most things in close combat. Not that I ever expect you to let the facts of the background trouble you.
...
For me this is about making a fluffy unit, not a beat all comers tar-pit unit of doom. Meaning there will be units out there better than it, but they're still one of the best all around cc units pound for pound.

If this is about a proper fluffy DA Assault Squad thats one thing, but what alot of people are asking for goes way beyond that, its diving headlong into uber unit of Doom territory.

Basically any unit with 5+ Init, 5+ WS, 3+ attacks, High Strength or access to a lot of NO-Save/Rending CC weapons, such as power weapons, harlie-Kisses, scything talons, etc...Or with an assortment of Special rules, FC, CA etc.

And why exactly do you think that basic Assault Marines should be have awesome stuff like these mostly top echelon elite units from other armies have, rather than have to rely on tactics and simple weight of numbers just like lesser quality units must when fighting the Assault Marines themselves?
...

Wow, just Wow....
You guys just do not ever even read what other people are saying, at all...

I have never suggested that we have this crazy-uber-defeat everything close combat unit.

I suggested Bolters and Storm Bolters for the assault unit, to make them usefull at something besides CC, which they are clearly NOT good at compared to other CC units. I didnt say compared to elites, or blah,blah,blah, or that these CC units do not have any weaknesses, I said they are true CC units that decimate the RotMSMAS. And that they always will. And RotMSMAS's are definitely NOT "one of the best all around cc units pound for pound"

So then Let's compare ... Pound for Pound

9 Assault Squad, 255 pts (Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Jump Pack; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x7; Chainsword x9; Plasma Pistol; Plasma Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Jump Pack; Power Armour; Combat Shield; Plasma Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

VS...

8 Genestealer Brood, 259 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Reinforced Chitin; Rending Claws; Brood Telepathy; Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Scything Talons; Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs)
1 Broodlord (Unit Type: Infantry; Adrenal Glands; Hardened Carapace; Rending Claws; Toxin Sacs; Brood Telepathy; Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Psyker; Implant Attack; Scything Talons; Aura of Despair; Hypnotic Gaze)

Anyone want to bet who wins?

I would say, on the Marines turn, if the Marines charge, the Tyranids win, And most of the wounds the Marines cause are due to shooting, not CC attacks.
I would say, on the Tyranids turn, if the Tyranids charge, The Tyranids win, and the marines might get lucky and have someone survive long enough to swing back.
Someone better than myself at Math-Hammer could probably figure it out easy enough.
Oh, and did we say that the GS are troops? Just an added little bonus there.

Now lets say we give the RotMSMAS some Storm Bolters?

I would say, on the Marines turn, The Marines win, and never have to charge, and take no casualties.
I would say, on the Tyranids turn, The Tyranids, never get within charge range, and the Marines win.
And the crowd goes wild!

I am not sure, but I think that just maybe the second outcome is a lot more 'Marine like' and desireable.

Just my opinion though, I am absolutely so sure there is no fluff supporting my belief at all...

And my "Entanglement Squad" is obviously not designed to defeat any of the enemy CC squads I mentioned.
If it did it would be by being very lucky.
It is designed solely to NOT LOSE, and set up the enemy to be defeated by other squads.
It also was complete sarcasm, but it must have slipped by.

Combat is not about what is fair, it is about winning.
For Marines winning is shooting, and not playing their game.
I never use RotMSMAS's and I bet 90%+ of the people out ther do not either.
There is a pretty good reason that is so...

Give them Storm Bolters and I would bet that changes...
I know that if I played Greenwing, that I would use them...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I would suggest that personal sniping aka snide remarks, aka things that have no value to discussion except to annoy would be left out of this discussion.
Keep it civil or the melta gun will be used.
Final warning.

[pueriexdeus]

Reading through this thread, it seems that most people are confusing the DA/SM Assault squad with elite deathstars. And that is understandable since GW has made it that way with the inclusion of Uber CC units in every post V5 Codi, except DA.

Now our current premier CC unit is the DW, and outfitted correctly they will go toe to toe with most deathstars out there. But I think were tired of being the Terminator army and would like some variety that wont penalize us.

IMO the only real alternative option is to give our Co Vets a JP/Bike option and be done with it. That would satisfy every players personal load-out wants/needs/desires. And it would not step on any other Codi's toes, or force a player to limit his/her (PC) options based on someone else's opinion.

[Brother Landrain]

Reading through this thread, it seems that most people are confusing the DA/SM Assault squad with elite deathstars. And that is understandable since GW has made it that way with the inclusion of Uber CC units in every post V5 Codi, except DA.

Now our current premier CC unit is the DW, and outfitted correctly they will go toe to toe with most deathstars out there. But I think were tired of being the Terminator army and would like some variety that wont penalize us.

IMO the only real alternative option is to give our Co Vets a JP/Bike option and be done with it. That would satisfy every players personal load-out wants/needs/desires. And it would not step on any other Codi's toes, or force a player to limit his/her (PC) options based on someone else's opinion.

I do not want Assault squads tobe elite/CC/deathstars at all...

I want them to remember to grab their Bolters and Storm Bolters when they wake up.

That alone would make them very viable, actually useful, probably even make them desireable, all at a relatively cheap cost, without stepping on any CC/Elite/Deathstar options available to all other SM Chapters.

And they would play in a completely different and unique way from other units.

[shabbadoo]

So then Let's compare ... Pound for Pound

Let me alter your squad load-out to that of a unit not looking to die horribly under a chitinous claw, and that represents the more basic C: BA format proposed for the DA Assault Squad.

9 Assault Squad, 225 pts (Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Jump Pack; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x7; Chainsword x7; Flamer, Flamer; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Stubborn)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Jump Pack; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x1; Power Fist x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Stubborn)

VS...

7 Genestealer Brood, 222 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Reinforced Chitin; Rending Claws; Brood Telepathy; Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Scything Talons; Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs)
1 Broodlord (Unit Type: Infantry; Adrenal Glands; Hardened Carapace; Rending Claws; Toxin Sacs; Brood Telepathy; Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Psyker; Implant Attack; Scything Talons; Aura of Despair; Hypnotic Gaze)

I would say, on the Marines turn, if the Marines charge, the Tyranids win, And most of the wounds the Marines cause are due to shooting, not CC attacks.

Then you'd be wrong. If the Assault Squad has the upper hand, which it likely will, the Genestealers are in serious trouble, regardless of their bio-engineering. The 7 Genestealers are almost guaranteed to be killed straight away in the shooting phase. The Broodlord will strike first in the Assault phase, likely killing just one Assault Marine, and then he gets wailed on by the survivors with 22 regular attacks and 3 powerfist attacks, which ought to kill him off all things considered. That'll do, pig. That'll do.

If the Genestealers get the charge, the Assault squad is, of course, in serious trouble, and they should be too, seeing as how those Genestealers have been bio-engineered. The Genestealers will hit 12 times, and wound about 10 times, two of which will be Rending hits; The other 8 will likely kill three marines. The Broodlord will likely hit 3 times and wound all three times, killing another marine. Six dead marines. Four strike back. Three of them hit 3 times and wound 1 time, killing a Genestealer. The powerfist will likely hit and kill one Genestealer. DA lose by 4, but likely stick around due to Stubborn. Of the four marines, one might live through the next assault phase, if he is a bit lucky, and may kill one more Genestealer, if he is once again a bit lucky. Still, overall the marines get their butt kicked, but that is what should happen in this instance.

We will however note which unit is less effective overall- the Genestealers. Both scenarios put side by side, the DA Assault Squad has the edge. The most important factor between these two units is the jump pack, which enables the Assault Marines to get the charge 5 out of 6 times in most cases, meaning the scary Genestealers are not so scary after all.

Oh, and did we say that the GS are troops? Just an added little bonus there.

Sure, but those 230 or so points can just as easily buy a Tactical Squad with a flamer and combi-flamer, and roll up in a Rhino to do the top hatch roasty toasty on the Genestealers, then, if their rhino gets popped, they can then roast again against a nicely bunched up Generstealer brood that has, unfortunately for them, probably adopted a "teardrop formation", mening they are now flamer bait for the Tac Squad one flamer(not to mention some rapid firing bolters). And the Tac Squd is also a Troops choice. Just depends on what you want to do with what you include in your army.

Now lets say we give the RotMSMAS some Storm Bolters?

I would say, on the Marines turn, The Marines win, and never have to charge, and take no casualties.
I would say, on the Tyranids turn, The Tyranids, never get within charge range, and the Marines win.
And the crowd goes wild!

I am not sure, but I think that just maybe the second outcome is a lot more 'Marine like' and desireable.

Just my opinion though, I am absolutely so sure there is no fluff supporting my belief at all...

No more than there is in any other codex. Everyone desires to win. Your example serves to illustrate the problem with what you propose- the enemy never has much of a chance at all. If you played against such an army, I bet you would really, really enjoy the game, it being composed mostly of you removing your own models and your opponent removing few to none of theirs. Recently I played just such a game against Daemons. I didn't lose a single model in 5 turns, and it ranks up there as among the most unenjoyable games I have ever played. When the enemy doesn't have much of a chance, the game isn't worth playing.

And my "Entanglement Squad" is obviously not designed to defeat any of the enemy CC squads I mentioned.
If it did it would be by being very lucky.
It is designed solely to NOT LOSE, and set up the enemy to be defeated by other squads.
It also was complete sarcasm, but it must have slipped by.

I got it, hence the "Unforgiven Entanglement Squad" I find that very funny. I guess "Unforgiven Tarpit Squad" would have been a bit too much.

Edited by shabbadoo, 18 July 2011 - 06:10 AM.

[MadDoc]

Wow, just Wow....
You guys just do not ever even read what other people are saying, at all...

Quite the opposite, you were asserting that since they're bad/suck in close combat compared to other Elite and/or top-tier close combat units which should by the background be able to maul them (a point you not unsurprisingly avoided addressing), that they should be shooty instead. I was simply debunking your backwards attempt at arguing for them to be shooty on the grounds that, according to you, they suck against "proper" close combat units (completely ignoring the fact that by the background, they should be less effective against certain close combat monster units).

Assault Squads are close combat units, Dark Angels Battle Companies are Codex and as such their Assault Squads will be inline with those of C:SM/C:BA option wise (meaning no bolter, storm bolter, or otherwise exclusively ranged combat equipped Assault Squads).

I've seen you display a mindboggling level of disrespect for the fluff in the past, even so, this is getting beyond ridiculous. The fluff is quite clear here, theres no ambiguity that needs to be cleared up, DA Assault Squads are Codex.

If you want to suggest your tarpit squad (or the BT rip-off squad+ as I like to call it) or a JP unit with ranged weapons as new units go right ahead, if (and thats a big if) they make it to the voting stage I'll do the sensible thing and vote against them, but please could we have a stop to this trying to turn DA Assault Squads into some unfluffy abomination?

Edited by MadDoc, 18 July 2011 - 05:13 AM.

[Octavulg]

MadDoc, please cite where it says:

A ) That Codex assault squads may not use bolters
B ) Where it says the Dark Angels adhere to that bit specifically

As a followup, please explain why, considering the noted variability, malleability, and general open-to-interpretationness of the Codex, to say nothing of the fact that all kinds of organizational and equipment deviations are tolerated as Codex-enough (the White Scars spring to mind), it would be impossible for the DA to be unique on this issue and still be considered Codex.

Seriously. The Codex is guidelines, not rules, and the players get to rewrite the rulebook whenever they want. Codex is whatever the people on the spot say it is.

[Gillyfish]

...and closed.

...at least until people have had a chance to cool down and stop sniping.

The Mods will discuss whether this topic should be opened up again and, if so, when.