35 replies to this topic

[Hotspur]

OK... Looks like there is some money left over from taxes, so I'm going to be buying some Predators for my BT collection. I'm planning on buying three, and using all three in a 2k armored list. I know a lot of you favor the AC turret/LC sponson setup; is there any particular reason other than cost? I was thinking about doing them with the TLLC turret and HB sponsons so there are a few more anti-infantry shots.

I could probably find the points for Vindicators if they are a better option, but I would prefer to have the reach of a Pred. I already have a couple of LRCs, so I'm just looking for something to fill in my heavy support slots.

Thanks!

[Drac0]

AC is better vs light mech and MC's.

While the HB is good vs horde, most of our army can deal with hordes in CC (volley + charge).
Our main issue is getting the troops out of their transports and dealing with MC. Both at which Autolas preds are great.

Sure you could try to take transports and MC's with meltas and powerfists, but I find the autolas pred much more reliable. While the PF and meltas are more of an insurance policy IMO.

P.S - and if you plan on fielding the predators alongside LRC's then there's no reason to take sponson HB on the preds, the LRC's hurricane bolters are more than enough to cut through hordes.

Edited by Drac0, 30 April 2011 - 06:21 PM.

[KhorneHunter57x]

Why not go for Tri-Las Predators?

The turret Twin-Linked Lascannon is better against higher AVs, MCs, and elite infantry units (capable of insta-killing T4 models and slicing through any armor, both things that the Autocannon cannot do) than the Autocannon, and the Tri-Las is a pretty good deal with the points in our codex.

As Drac0 said, if you field them alongside Crusaders, then you should not be lacking for anti-infantry firepower.

Edited by KhorneHunter57x, 30 April 2011 - 07:32 PM.

[Acebaur]

I personally like the Tri-Las Pred. We get ours significantly cheaper than other marine chapters can so they are worth taking. I'm not the biggest fan of the Auto-can/Las pred as while the S7 shots are not bad against MC's they are sub par for tank hunting, which is what these tanks should be focused on. So that's why I prefer the Tri-las to the auto/las.

As far as the Vindicator vs Pred, that's a different story. For one you should always take EA and PotMS on your vindi's. This basically allows you to ignore shaken and stunned results and move 12" and fire the Demo cannon instead of 6".

I think it's hard to compare these two because they serve totally different roles on the battlefield. A Tri-Las Pred is in a list to take out enemy armor. A Vindicator is not a tank hunter, nor is it an infantry hunter. Sure the Vindicator can do these things, and when it does, it is usually devastating, but you shouldn't expect it to. That's not why you take one. You take one because of the threat of what it can do, whether or not it actually does it is irrelevant as long as your opponent is still afraid of it. It's ability to wipe out whole units and ignore shaken/stunned results with the aforementioned upgrades means that it will be very high on your opponents threat list and he will focus a lot of firepower to bring it down. This means that your LRC's, Rhinos, Typhoon LS's and Predators will have less AT to worry about and can do their jobs more effectively.

A Predator is just the opposite, you expect it to do some damage during the game. Having powerful units in your list like Vindi's and LRC's will bump your Preds down on the threat list and keep them alive longer so that they can do more damage.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

OK... Looks like there is some money left over from taxes, so I'm going to be buying some Predators for my BT collection. I'm planning on buying three, and using all three in a 2k armored list. I know a lot of you favor the AC turret/LC sponson setup; is there any particular reason other than cost? I was thinking about doing them with the TLLC turret and HB sponsons so there are a few more anti-infantry shots.

I could probably find the points for Vindicators if they are a better option, but I would prefer to have the reach of a Pred. I already have a couple of LRCs, so I'm just looking for something to fill in my heavy support slots.

Thanks!

Magnetise them bro.
I know it is some stuffing around, but once you have done it, you'll be so glad you bothered.

One day, Templars will get el cheapo Autobolter [Dakka] Preds and you will want to give them a try when we can.

I bought mine with fixed sponsons, from eBay, so I don't know if you need to buy extra sposnons from online or whether the Pred kit comes with four sponsons per kit....?
But all you need is some decent sized magnets and you'll be laughing.

*Remember to put the magnets in the right way - so the left side chassis magnet attracts the left side sponson, etc.

[Acebaur]

The Pred kit come with everything you need to make any variant of the Pred you want. Catch is you only get the extra guns, not the sponson bitz you need to make separate turrest and sponsons. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I agree 100% with the magnatizing. I did that with my sponsons, but I have yet to figure out how to do it with the turret, it's a bit trickier. Here is the site I use to get magnets, they are awesome and cheap.

http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The Pred kit come with everything you need to make any variant of the Pred you want. Catch is you only get the extra guns, not the sponson bitz you need to make separate turrest and sponsons. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I agree 100% with the magnatizing. I did that with my sponsons, but I have yet to figure out how to do it with the turret, it's a bit trickier. Here is the site I use to get magnets, they are awesome and cheap.

http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/

My brother, Magneto has magnetised the Auto cannon and Las cannon for the Pred turret.

Ok. The gun has the end that fits into the turret. This has two little nubs, cut them flat, then drill into where they use to be. Insert round magnets into drilled hole.

Where the gun fits into the turret, are two mounting points which have holes in them. These holes are where the little nubs used to click into. Drill them out a little, so the disc magnets can sit flush with the inside face [the one that touches the gun end]. Glue magnets from the outside of these mounting points.

The guns are now ready to be switched over as your please.

If you don't glue the rear door in place, you can even stick the non-used gun in the Pred for safe keeping.

[Iktenos]

The Pred kit come with everything you need to make any variant of the Pred you want. Catch is you only get the extra guns, not the sponson bitz you need to make separate turrest and sponsons. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I agree 100% with the magnatizing. I did that with my sponsons, but I have yet to figure out how to do it with the turret, it's a bit trickier. Here is the site I use to get magnets, they are awesome and cheap.

http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/

Take a couple pieces of the sprue and glue them inside the turret halves, glue magnets on them. Workes grat with mine.

And I have been taking the auto/las pred with PotMS and armor. They are amazing, lets you move 6 and fire both lascannons, or 12 to get away from something nasty and still get a shot off, as well as letting you throw the s7 autocannon shots on something softer if you are trying to break hard armor (av14) with the lascannons.

[Devjon]

I prefer the Auto/Las ones. You get that extra shot if you need to face infantry, you lose barely any anti-tank capability, and you do save 20 points. Against Monstrous Creatures I don't think there's much of a difference since the Autocannon has two shots while the Lascannon will wound more often and has better AP so it pretty much just comes down to personal preference. While you lose a slight chance at killing armor you do gain a better chance of doing something, decreasing the chance to be useless in each round. Against heavy armor it is almost always a better option to use a Melta weapon rather than use as many Lascannon shots as possible so your loss there isn't much (and hey, those saved 20 points would pay for those Melta weapons ).

If you put PotMS on them, then I would definitely go with the Auto/Las so that you can (if you haven't moved) fire your Lascannons at a vehicle that you need to kill while using your Autocannon for suppression fire. You also would need to consider the cost of a Tri-Las Predator with PotMS (at least 180 points) and ask yourself if it's really worth it.

Comparing it to the Vindicator, as has already been said they provide different rolls when added to your list. If you need to draw fire away from the rest of your army then the Vindicators may be a better option, but for killing killing vehicles it can't compare to the Predator.

And you should absolutely magnetize. If you decide that you want to change one or more of your choices then they will save you quite a bit of money.

[KhorneHunter57x]

While you lose a slight chance at killing armor you do gain a better chance of doing something, decreasing the chance to be useless in each round.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the chances of missing twice with a two-shot weapon the same as missing with a twin-linked weapon? (thereby doing nothing that turn)

The advantage that a two-shot weapon offers is that chance to hit twice, and I think that advantage is nullified by the lower Str and higher AP of the Autocannon compared to the Lascannon. Against most targets that you would shoot with a gunboat like the Predator, the turret Lascannon is far better. It is better than the Autocannon against all armor values, and with most MCs having an armor save of 3+ or better the AP of the Lascannon is more valuable than a second shot. That, and the Lascannon can insta-kill T4 multi-wound targets, such as GK Paladins, Tyranid Warriors, Crisis Battlesuits, a wide number of HQ choices, etc. The only targets where a second shot is more useful than low AP or high Str is against models that, as has been mentioned before, the rest of a Templar army should not have trouble dealing with.

Predators are included in a Templar army in order to deal with a select few threats that the rest of the army cannot effectively deal with, most notably transports at range and monsterous creatures. The Annihilator increases the tank's effectiveness against those few targets, and for a relatively small price over the Destructor.

Also, regardless of which variant you do select, I have to strongly echo the suggestions of magnetizing and PotMS. PotMS is still useful on even a Tri-Las, as you can still fire the turret if shaken/moving quick, and if you are fighting a Razorspam/Rhinorush-style army then it allows you to fire the sponson guns at one target and the turret at a second.

[Brother Loring]

Tri-Las - Cheaper than SM version so could be seen as more 'efficient', but is most expensive choice. Lots of AP2 for vehicles/MCs/TEqs.

Auto-Las - Bit cheaper than Tri-Las and on par with Sm equivalent. More shots than trilas, but lack of twin-linking and AP4 weapon makes it less effective at MCs/TEq. Against light armour (AV 10/11), probably similar outcomes.

Dakka (AC/HB) - Cheapest variant, but still significantly more than our 5th Ed cousins. Lots of shots, forcing lots of saves on infantry/MCs. Has the potential to disrupt light armour, but don't count on destroyed results... more like death by glancing.

As with everything, it is dependent upon the list in which they are found. We don't have a massive deficiency against armour or infantry our at range, but you need to make sure your bases are covered. If you don't have shooty Elites (TL-LC dreads), Min-Max crusader squads (Las/Plas or flamer), then certainly consider the heavier of the two options. If you have no TMLs either, I'd probably push you towards the Tri-Las variant.

Good luck.

[Marshal Laeroth]

Ack. Ack. Ack.

First off, no. The chances of hitting with a TL-Las is not the same as an Autocannon. Percentage wise, yes, but the difference is there are more shots. So you'll hit with 1.333 AC shots a turn on average, verses .889 hits with a TL-Las on average. As you mentioned KH, the benefit is that you can put more shots into whatever you're shooting for much cheaper.

Second, I use my Predators for mainly for one thing: hunting transports. That is their job. If you destroy your opponent's mobility, you win the game. My opponent's fire support is secondary (unless they are a gunline), with some exceptions to the rule. There are better things in our army for destroying those pesky fire support units my opponent has (Typhoons, who can easily maneuver for side shots; Tank-Hunter CML Terminators, who put out 4 "lascannons" a turn; melta weapons, etc).

I prefer the AC/Las setup, BY FAR. Assuming your shooting a Rhino, that Predator (AC/Las) has a 43.072% chance to wreck/explode it. A Tri-las Pred has a 48.286% chance to do the same. There is only a 7.476% difference between the Tri-las and AC/Las destroying AV12. Am I going to pay 20 points extra for that 5.2%/7.5%? Hell no. Just because its cheaper in our codex compared to other codices, doesn't mean it should be an auto-include in our lists. Before you say it, the Typhoon is different. Because for 70 points, that amount of firepower is ridiculous in ANY codex. It doesn't matter that its cheaper for us, for THAT cheap, you need to take them. You cannot say the same for Tri-Las Predators, who run you 145 points minimum. Times that by three and you're looking at 1/4 your army in 2000 points. Why not save yourself 60 points by downgrading slightly with a weapon that has a higher damage potential? 5.2%/7.5% is not worth 20 points each. That's a rhino for one of my units. Or almost one Typhoon.

You might say that the Tri-las is better at AV13 or AV14, and I would agree. But again, why are you shooting the Predator's weapons at that stuff when you have better options? I gave several units our codex provides at is better suited towards that goal. And really, minus Land Raider lists...if you're shooting at that hard to kill stuff with Predators, you've either blown everything else up or you're going to lose because of poor target priorities.

This isn't even counting if you're simply out for suppression fire. In that case, the Tri-Las only has a 1.167% more chance than the AC/Las to shake or stun an AV11 vehicle. Something to think about.

Next, saying the Tri-Las is better against MC's is a red herring. Sure most of them have 3+ armor saves and the Lascannons would negate that...but it is a bad Nid player indeed that is allowing you to shoot at them without cover saves. Nid players (main MC users) rely on staggered their lines from little to biggest to give everything cover. So you should never actually be getting an open shot at a MC by itself. And if you do, you're going to win anyway because they are playing bad. If you want to know, Tri-las causes 0.926 wounds on average against a Monstrous Creature with T6, 3+ save in cover (with the max potential of causing up to 3 wounds). An AC/Las causes 0.852 wounds on average, and possibly a total of 4 wounds a turn. Again, not paying 20 points for 0.074 wounds a turn.

Finally, I agree with everyone that you should magnetize your Predators. I made the mistake of building mine...then I changed my list. You will earn back the time and energy magnetizing instantly the first time you change your load out. Otherwise you're spending $150 on three new predators.

Edited by Marshal Laeroth, 01 May 2011 - 08:21 AM.

[DasPanzerIstUber]

That's quite a comprehensive appraisal of the benefits of an autolas predator!

I just like the look of the autocannon turret but yeah I suppose all those points make sense as well.

[KhorneHunter57x]

First off, no. The chances of hitting with a TL-Las is not the same as an Autocannon. Percentage wise, yes, but the difference is there are more shots. So you'll hit with 1.333 AC shots a turn on average, verses .889 hits with a TL-Las on average. As you mentioned KH, the benefit is that you can put more shots into whatever you're shooting for much cheaper.

I did not say that the chances of hitting were the same, but that the chances of missing entirely were the same. I agree that the Autocannon has a higher chance to hit, though it is with an inferior weapon.


That said, I think that it comes down to personal choice between the Annihilator (Tri-Las) and the Destructor (Auto-Las). I prefer the Lascannon turret for the reasons I have mentioned, while others prefer the Autocannon for the reasons they have stated. And this is where magnetising is especially helpful: Magnetize the turret gun, and you can try out both variants and find out which one works better for you. I have tried both, and the Annihilator just works better for what I need it to do.

Though perhaps it is just the Tau in me asking 'what on earth are you doing putting a Str 7 gun on a tank? ', or perhaps it is a little bit of the Templar in me saying that the Autocannon belongs with the Guard, not His Knights.

[Sn4k30r]

Hm...... I play 2 preds AC-LAss sponsors POTM....

I find it teh BEST..... i play vs MC? 8 shots are imba (THEY SPLIT guys! Potm! rulesss!) vs Light mechs? (vs High AV i use my Melta typhoons drop pod squad MM from crusaders etc...)

ANd add ++ if you are lucky on 3+ you gain more shots than a s9 Tlinked 2 s7!

[Roesor]

Our preds are cheaper fully pimped out. And just slightly more exspensive with power of the machine spirit =D

[Marshal Laeroth]

I did not say that the chances of hitting were the same, but that the chances of missing entirely were the same. I agree that the Autocannon has a higher chance to hit, though it is with an inferior weapon.

That said, I think that it comes down to personal choice between the Annihilator (Tri-Las) and the Destructor (Auto-Las). I prefer the Lascannon turret for the reasons I have mentioned, while others prefer the Autocannon for the reasons they have stated. And this is where magnetising is especially helpful: Magnetize the turret gun, and you can try out both variants and find out which one works better for you. I have tried both, and the Annihilator just works better for what I need it to do.

Touche sir. While it does come down to personal preferences, I will almost always give supporting arguments on my position so that others may make educated decisions on what they want to take.

[Devjon]

I just like the look of the autocannon turret but yeah I suppose all those points make sense as well.

Well, that too of course.

Touche sir. While it does come down to personal preferences, I will almost always give supporting arguments on my position so that others may make educated decisions on what they want to take.

+1

[Marshal Wilhelm]

You might say that the Tri-las is better at AV13 or AV14, and I would agree. But again, why are you shooting the Predator's weapons at that stuff when you have better options? I gave several units our codex provides at is better suited towards that goal. And really, minus Land Raider lists...if you're shooting at that hard to kill stuff with Predators, you've either blown everything else up or you're going to lose because of poor target priorities.

I am trying to get the LasBolter to work in my list. I want more LRAI shooting, so the Crusaders don't have to get out to kill stuff.

Our Dakka Preds are too expensive, compared to UM prices. But perhaps they are better than the LasBolter [which I think "should" work] as the AC is not much different to the tlLC and 20 pts cheaper - which is the argument you put forwards for AutoLas > 3las.

This is strange. I thought I'd never use our overpriced Dakka Preds

In my list: The first one, not with Termies
I want more AI shooting, and am thinking of swapping the AutoLas Preds for LasBolter Preds.

I could swap a Tornado and something for another pair of Typhoons, but am scared about losing mobile MM.

Perhaps this will work:

Drop the AutoLas Preds and a Tornado = 325 pts
Add two MM Typhoons and a Dakka Pred = 280 pts - the MM Typhoons would act in more of a lurker role, than rushing fowards to MELTA something.
Or
Add two Typhoons and two Dakka Preds = 360 pts. - the loss of MM is hopefully made up for by greater AI shooting.

Decisions, decisions.

Edited by Marshal Wilhelm, 03 May 2011 - 02:46 AM.

[Algesan]

I'm just not enamored with the "fast MM". Yes, it is nice stuff, but it turns into suicide melta when you have to take AV10 into bolter range.

What are you looking at? A multiple LR list? It might shine there, otherwise why bother? Look at what else you are more likely to face. Say, something like Marshal Laeroth's gunline with a mix of AV13 and AV11 on the front and flanks. IG with their AV12 front and AV10 flanks. DE with AV11 and AV10 open tops and a 5+ save.

At 1500 points I'm going to be sporting a pair of Tank Hunter twin Cyclone Terminators and four Typhoon Speeders (one double and two single squadrons).

Against the proverbial Land Raider, that will give me 4*2/3*1/6*1/3 or 4/27 or 14.8% chance of an outright kill with the Cyclones. Immobilizing it is about half that chance, but doubles because you can also immobilize on a glance. Of course, if it isn't carrying anything, then immobilizing it isn't such a big deal maybe, but then a lot of the threat of a Land Raider is the package it is delivering.

Now, what about AV 13? 4*2/3*1/3*1/3 or 8/27 or 29.6% chance of an outright kill.

AV12? 4*2/3*1/2*1/3 or 4/9 or 44.4% chance of the kill.

AV11? 4*2/3*2/3*1/3 or 16/27 or 59.3% of killing.

Of course, this also makes you wonder what you are shooting at. A Razorback variant? Weapon Destroyed is as good as a kill for combat purposes. Any transport being used as such? A toss up, but if you manage to immobilize it before it gets to an objective, you can call it a win.

The only thing I'm really losing by not putting a MM on my Typhoons? A high penetration rate for a kill and you must get the kill if you are going to die for the shot. Figure the penetration percentage and then divide by three to cover the chance to hit and kill. 19.4% Less than 5% greater chance to kill a Land Raider. 24.1% chance vs AV13.

I cannot justify spending the points for such a low return.

[Marshal Laeroth]

The Las/HB Predator has possibilities due to its duality. Its relatively cheap at 130 points.

Our *insert unit* are too expensive, compared to *insert codex* prices.

This, however, is a commonly held opinion. And I cannot understand for the life of me why people compare prices between codices. It doesn't change the fact that we still have the same options in the list regardless of price. We need to take units in our codex taking in consideration to how they synergize with the rest of our forces, their price within our codex, and their effectiveness (duality, loadout, etc). There needs to be a vacuum when building a list, beyond considering how it will work against the common opponents.

For example, a 70 point Typhoon verses a 90 point Typhoon doesn't make it any more effective on the battlefield, so making the comparison doesn't really matter. Its just that 70 points for a Typhoon is cheap as hell. The same goes for the Tri-las Predator. 145 points or 165 points, it still has the same pros and cons regardless of price. And in my opinion, those cons are enough to keep me from using it when we have the AC/Las available. But that statement is applicable to a great many comparisons players make (i.e. Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Dreadnoughts, etc).

[KhorneHunter57x]

The Las/HB Predator has possibilities due to its duality. Its relatively cheap at 130 points.

The Dakka Annihilator is my favorite Predator for my Codex Marines (yes, a bit of cross-codex comparing, but it is valid in this case). I have found that it works well with the Phobos Land Raider, as both are capable of moving 6" and putting out accurate Lascannon fire.

I field two of them (TL Lascannon/Heavy Bolters/Storm Bolter) in my Utramarines (alongside 2 Razorbacks and 2 Phobos Land Raiders), and I have found that they provide an effective, mobile balance of anti-tank and anti-infantry firepower.

I'm just not enamored with the "fast MM". Yes, it is nice stuff, but it turns into suicide melta when you have to take AV10 into bolter range.

What are you looking at? A multiple LR list? It might shine there, otherwise why bother? Look at what else you are more likely to face. Say, something like Marshal Laeroth's gunline with a mix of AV13 and AV11 on the front and flanks. IG with their AV12 front and AV10 flanks. DE with AV11 and AV10 open tops and a 5+ save.

I too am not a fan of 'fast melta,' and I have found that saturation Lascannon fire works better against the few AV14 targets that I encounter (hence my preference for Lascannon turrets).

Also, if you field something expecting it to die in achieving its mission, then it is a waste of points in my book.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I'm just not enamored with the "fast MM". Yes, it is nice stuff, but it turns into suicide melta when you have to take AV10 into bolter range.

What are you looking at? A multiple LR list? It might shine there, otherwise why bother? Look at what else you are more likely to face. Say, something like Marshal Laeroth's gunline with a mix of AV13 and AV11 on the front and flanks. IG with their AV12 front and AV10 flanks. DE with AV11 and AV10 open tops and a 5+ save.

The only thing I'm really losing by not putting a MM on my Typhoons? A high penetration rate for a kill and you must get the kill if you are going to die for the shot. Figure the penetration percentage and then divide by three to cover the chance to hit and kill. 19.4% Less than 5% greater chance to kill a Land Raider. 24.1% chance vs AV13.

I cannot justify spending the points for such a low return.

I guess it is a timing thing. If you just rush the Speeders into the face of the foe, the Tornados will get smashed.
I generally use mine in three ways:
• DS against LRBT and other things that shoot from afar, yet have solid front and side AV that is a pig to deal with via LRAT [because we don't have Rail guns]
• As a duo with my Mg PF Crusaders+Rhino. Tornados open a transport, Crusaders assault the passengers. Yes, the Crusaders have one Mg. But that is the problem - it is just one. Wolves run 2 or a combi-Mg in their packs. Or the Crusaders shoot from the Rhino and the Tornado HFs them, or the Rhino tank shocks and the Tornado HFs.
• The Tornado move-blocks a LR or Battlewagon. If it lives, I get to MELTA, if not, it has brought me another turn.

It is usually the second option that gets the most plays.

These aren't its prime role, but nice extras that add to a list.

Then the Tornado escorts broken but >50% fleeing units and contests Objectives if it has survived.

They can also rush after Deldar Raiders, likely ignoring cover and blowing them up, which ap1 and open-topped turns into a '6' often enough. Which kills more passengers.
Annoying poxy units, like Kroot or Pathfinders, in woods are annoying to winkle out. The Tornado can pretty much eradicate these.

Marine lists are slow, or, not fast to be fairer. Tornados change this. I am not usually willing to do with Typhoons what I do with Tornados.

The Las/HB Predator has possibilities due to its duality. Its relatively cheap at 130 points.

Our *insert unit* are too expensive, compared to *insert codex* prices.

This, however, is a commonly held opinion. And I cannot understand for the life of me why people compare prices between codices. It doesn't change the fact that we still have the same options in the list regardless of price. We need to take units in our codex taking in consideration to how they synergize with the rest of our forces, their price within our codex, and their effectiveness (duality, loadout, etc). There needs to be a vacuum when building a list, beyond considering how it will work against the common opponents.

For example, a 70 point Typhoon verses a 90 point Typhoon doesn't make it any more effective on the battlefield, so making the comparison doesn't really matter. Its just that 70 points for a Typhoon is cheap as hell. The same goes for the Tri-las Predator. 145 points or 165 points, it still has the same pros and cons regardless of price. And in my opinion, those cons are enough to keep me from using it when we have the AC/Las available. But that statement is applicable to a great many comparisons players make (i.e. Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Dreadnoughts, etc).

Are you saying the LasBolter compared to the Dakka is better than the 3las to the AutoLas?

+++

What you are saying about 'what it brings to our list' is true. Saying that it doesn't make sense to compare between Dexes is too simplistic, imo. Take it to absurdity - if I pay 500 pts for a Rhino, even if a Rhino really helps me, it is just not going to get game time when I can see Ultramarines getting it for 35 pts.

Whilst a Typhoon by any other points value would still smell as sweet, that ours are 20 pts less than an Ultramarine one makes me realise it is even better value for us to bring it. Therefore, spend the same points on them as the Ultramarine would, and profit.

Similarly, if Ultramarines spend 255 pts to get 3 Dakka Preds and this works well for them, then me bringing three for 330 pts is going to leave me short 75 pts or a Tornado. That is a big deal.
Now if I am paying 20 less for a Typhoon and 25 more for a Dakka Pred, then if I use them as a pair, I am not really losing anything to the modern, and cheaper [therefore more powerful] Dexes.
Same thing with our Rhinos. If I can offset my overpriced transports by bringing in el cheapo Typhoons, then I am on par with the cheaper Dexes.

I do see what you are saying, but I don't think it is wise to ignore Dex comparison.

If you can buy 3las Preds for 50 pts each, it'd be silly to not bring them just because they are too mono in use. The massive points savings would allow you to bring things that the difference in points of the AutoLas Pred [still at 125]. Those 70 pts would bring a Typhoon.

3las Pred plus Typhoon > Autolas Pred.

I know I am going to absurdity, but I hope that gets my point across. You don't have to use Codex comparison if you don't like it. I am just saying that when well used, like mathhammer, it gives you another measuring stick. That is all

The Las/HB Predator has possibilities due to its duality. Its relatively cheap at 130 points.

The Dakka Annihilator is my favorite Predator for my Codex Marines (yes, a bit of cross-codex comparing, but it is valid in this case). I have found that it works well with the Phobos Land Raider, as both are capable of moving 6" and putting out accurate Lascannon fire.

I field two of them (TL Lascannon/Heavy Bolters/Storm Bolter) in my Utramarines (alongside 2 Razorbacks and 2 Phobos Land Raiders), and I have found that they provide an effective, mobile balance of anti-tank and anti-infantry firepower.

I'm just not enamored with the "fast MM". Yes, it is nice stuff, but it turns into suicide melta when you have to take AV10 into bolter range.

What are you looking at? A multiple LR list? It might shine there, otherwise why bother? Look at what else you are more likely to face. Say, something like Marshal Laeroth's gunline with a mix of AV13 and AV11 on the front and flanks. IG with their AV12 front and AV10 flanks. DE with AV11 and AV10 open tops and a 5+ save.

I too am not a fan of 'fast melta,' and I have found that saturation Lascannon fire works better against the few AV14 targets that I encounter (hence my preference for Lascannon turrets).

Also, if you field something expecting it to die in achieving its mission, then it is a waste of points in my book.

So you do find the LasBolter of use, as long as you have sufficient LRAT fire to cover the deficit from changing from the AutoLas?

What do you think of my list change ups then? Do you think I have enough LRAT to swap in the LasBolter Preds for AutoLas Preds?

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I hope that in answering Algesan, I have also answered your dislike of 'fast melta'. Not to convert, but to make it be seen as a decent/viable/intelligent choice.

Now on the suicide component. I think you are being too compassionate with your toy soldiers
What if, absurdly speaking, I have a 100 pt unit that kills 500 pts of the enemy, but automatically dies in being used. You couldn't, surely, tell me that is a waste of points. In the same way, even if the efficiency in points is lower, the point still stands?

Or what if you could bring 10 HK missiles for 10 pts. That is a great deal, yet the HKs are used up on use. But you are still getting very good bang-for-buck.

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Thoughts gentlemen....?

[Brother Vader]

I still like fast melta, despite the cheap typhoons. The FAQ didn't make Tornados or MM attack bikes redundant. I like the duality of the Tornado and I like the 3++ turboboost of the attack bikes and the ability to throw them into combat to tie up shooty units or low quality scoring units. As Marshall Wilhelm says they work nicely in conjunction with MG/PF crusaders and if they do die taking fire away from my rhinos or dreads then meh.

As for preds, I dunno, I don't use them, but I am starting to really like my LR Phobos. 2 TLLC and PoTMS rocks. It's like an Annihilator with a rhino on top and AV14.

[Algesan]

Part of this debate is over "style" and perceived risk/reward. Note that I don't like the MM Speeders, but I put melta on every Crusader squad I field. I also don't have any problem committing my Typhoons to movement blocking or flank covering for a 4+ cover save. I just don't want to give up the HB shots at 36" when I'm dancing around with them.

For me, the "risk" of having to deal with a multiple AV14 list and being "underpowered" is outweighed by the realization of the cost of building a multiple AV14 list. If you are packing a LRC with Blessed Hull, then that is pretty much two Predators or four Speeders you don't have. If you want three of them, you just spent 885 points. It ends up being a high risk/high reward type of list where you simply MUST get the Land Raiders through or you can get danced around and shot to pieces.

I have a similar style issue with Rhinos and Drop Pods. Let's see, I can try to travel across the board in AV11 while under fire or I can drop down in AV12 near where I want to be without taking one shot. Yes, Rhinos get to be mobile bunkers, but they won't be for long if I'm shooting at you. In a Predator/Lazorback/Typhoon list, the Lazorbacks and Typhoons come first because they are easy to kill/neutralize while I move to get flank shots on the Predators, where they die just as easily as Rhinos.