Designing a Codex for custom SM Chapter - Plasma Flavoured.

[Xythan]

ORIGINALLY POSTED ON REDDIT

 

I've been making up my own chapter for some time now and have always had a bit of a love affair with plasma weapons. While I am making my chapter playable with the standard SM Codex I also wouldn't mind designing my very own codex to add a little plasma flavour (to field in friendly games).

 

My Chapter Master (though I use that loosely as my chapter is governed by a Triumvirate rather than a single man) has a plasma pistol with a blade built into the underside of the gun (I used a skaven weapon and some green stuff) and a power sword. I'm planning to field him using Captain Sicarius' rules to simulate the plasma gun being jammed into a target before firing (ie, the instant kill in melee).

 

But I would like to take it a little further...maybe make my CM a little more powerful, as Sicarious is no Macragge. So yeah, I've come here to share a few of my ideas and ask for feedback, especially so on making sure that the additional plasma doesn't make my chapter over-powered.

 

The ideas beyond my CM are these so far;

 

A plasma variant of the Land Raider, possibly a plasma hurricane sponson or maybe twin linked plasma cannon like the LRC assault cannons.

 

Somehow allowing re-rolls on exploding weapons, or something else to distinguish the chapter trait as unique.

 

Squads (veteran only?) that can take more plasma weapons, and maybe less of another.

 

Any suggestions for Predators, Rhinos/Razorbacks and Dreadnaughts?

 

I was hoping for some suggestions on pintle mounted plasma weapons too...

 

I've also been building a Fellblade and after seeing these two variants, Blood Angel Fellblade and Imperial Fist Fellblade, I thought that a plasma styled variant would be fun to make and play in Apocalypse games.

 

As a side note, I have been working on the fluff too...so I have story as well!

 

EDIT: I do avoid bikes and speeders, favouring an Imperial Fist like siege assault - the lumbering juggernaught rather than the surgical strike.

 

Thanks all!

[Ferrata]

I've moved this to the home grown rules section, however a few Liber people still might see it.

 

Usually, my problem with homegrown rules is the same what happened with the trait system - the drawbacks are not drawbacks because you weren't going to do them anyway. So if you were going to avoid taking Speeders and Bikes, not being allowed to take them doesn't balance out better and more Plasma Weapons.

 

As for having lots of Plasma weapons, I have always been a fan of "You could probably do this through army choice", however, seeing as you have posted rules you are probably looking past this.

 

Somehow allowing re-rolls on exploding weapons, or something else to distinguish the chapter trait as unique.

I would say the only thing that would be fair here would be that on a roll of 1, you roll it again and on a 5+ you don't suffer from overheat (you still miss though). Otherwise, it is like equipping your marines with twin-linked Plasma Guns.

 

Removal of other Special and Heavy Weapons would be a nice balance as well, specialism usually leads to lack of diversity.

[Xythan]

I've moved this to the home grown rules section, however a few Liber people still might see it.

 

Usually, my problem with homegrown rules is the same what happened with the trait system - the drawbacks are not drawbacks because you weren't going to do them anyway. So if you were going to avoid taking Speeders and Bikes, not being allowed to take them doesn't balance out better and more Plasma Weapons.

 

As for having lots of Plasma weapons, I have always been a fan of "You could probably do this through army choice", however, seeing as you have posted rules you are probably looking past this.

 

Somehow allowing re-rolls on exploding weapons, or something else to distinguish the chapter trait as unique.

I would say the only thing that would be fair here would be that on a roll of 1, you roll it again and on a 5+ you don't suffer from overheat (you still miss though). Otherwise, it is like equipping your marines with twin-linked Plasma Guns.

 

Removal of other Special and Heavy Weapons would be a nice balance as well, specialism usually leads to lack of diversity.

 

Thank you for your input, and I do somewhat agree with you there.

 

However, considering some of the 5th Edition stuff I don't think this would be such an issue. For example, the rules for Vulkan He'stan are pretty insane, twin linked meltas and master crafted thunderhammers...that is one SMACKDOWN CC army. And this is more what I am thinking than anything else for rule variation.

 

As for the vehicles, I was more looking for suggestions concerning what would be a fair trade on some of the weapon mounts and the effect on point cost. I really do think that Apoc should have come with some flexibility rules...but oh well, homebrewed stuff will have to do. :D

 

Thanks again for the rule suggestion...but can you explain that a little clearer please? And would you have any suggestion about adding that to a HQ unit like Vulkan's melta/thunderhammer rules?

[Culebras]

I can't help you with Apoc, but if I might make a suggestion. Str 7, ap 2 weapons are very powerful, which is one of the reasons most other races only have Plasma weapons at str 6. At Str 7, you can conceivably pen most transports on a roll of 4+ though you would have better luck with say a Krak Missle or a las cannon. Removing these from the army can create a nice space to balance.

 

Just brainstorming ideas, one might be a "Plasma battlecannon" that fires a Str 8, Ap 1 shot at a longer range than the Multi melta but has a chance to explode even on a vehicle (normally vehicles don't have that flaw) inflicting a glancing hit.

 

Twin-linked plasma cannon on a Landraider sounds fine to me, though you may have to make it a barrage weapon to satisfy some people. Hurricane plasma guns are a bit too much for me. The main advantage of the hurricane is you can move and shoot with them since they are considered defensive weapons. With plasma guns, it wouldn't be nearly as effective and you would have to Jack the point cost up alot to make it fair.

 

Dual plasma cannons on Dreadnoughts might be cool ( we already have dual Auto-cannons). the biggest problem is that there aren't that many Plasma weapons to make it interesting. Not how with Vulkan, it was flamers, meltas and thunder hammers. Just plasma weapons seems like its missing something to me.

 

Need to think about it more

[Bannus]

As a proponent for homegrown codices, let me make a significant point: You can't.

 

Coming up with special characters - great.

 

A few unique units - go for it.

 

A Codex - not happening.

 

The simple reason for this is the amount of information you will be posting. You can only go so far before you start treading on GW's IP rights and then we have to shut the project down.

 

However, you can still do quite a bit within the limitiations imposed above. If you look at the Iron Hands and Salamanders projects, you can see that you can still come up with something unique, while still grounded firmly in the Space Marine Codex (and protecting GW's IP rights).

[DerekLee688]

Let me get this straight, you can take a tac squad and alter their stats and rules, include their new point cost, and any unique equipment you've invented, but you can't post a un-modified codex unit (tac, assault, etc.) with their stock cost and stock equipment cost within your "codex".

 

GW can copy and paste unit entries from codex to codex to represent standard units, but we can't.

 

Legaly we can only make Apoc. data sheets or add unit entries to an existing codex, while posting with the same rules as rest of forum.

 

Is that about right?

[Bannus]

Not quite. It really involves the amout of information that you wish to replicate - even in part. It is a fine line and there really is no way to define exactly what you can and cannot do. But it's kind of like art - you may not know what it is, but you know it when you see it. Same can apply for GW's IP rights.

[Xythan]

Oh, I understand the legal implications of this and yes, I will never be able to post my entire codex for you all...but I could post a redacted one. Simply, the final product would be for me alone (and possibly a copy sent to GW just for a laugh).

 

I know that sharing as much as we can is so all can share in the enjoyment of the creations of other...and perhaps be inspired within your own stuff.

 

Back on topic, I have thought about Culebras post and have a few ideas to throw out there...

 

 

Dreadnaught - Two plasma cannons sounds like a great idea for a named HQ unit, maybe that allows other dreads to swap the MM for the PC for free?

 

Land Raider - Twin linked PC for the frontal mount is something I like, but what to do with the sponsons? Maybe the Redeemer is my template...just swap the ACs for the PCs.

 

Predators - Still not sure here, a plasma destroyer (the Leman Russ Executioner mount) seems far too powerful.

 

Misc - Pintle mounted plasma guns?

 

Hero - Chapter Tactics;

All plasma weapons can re-roll on a Gets Hot! roll to determine if the weapon explodes (as plasma weapons are of high manufacturing standard).

Devastator units can take PCs for the same price as MMs, MLs, and HBs, in addition they can only take one MM and one LC and no MLs (great quantities of plasma weapons lower price, MLs replaced - other weapon skills stunted due to specialisation).

Plasma Pistols and Plasma Guns cost -5 points as usual (higher quantities of plasma weapons).

 

 

Suggestions?

[spartan249]

There has to be a drawback to this. Otherwise, you're only adding power to C:SM, which is going to lead to a rejection of your changes.

 

I'd say you greatly stunt the availability of all other types of weapons if you're going to go this route. That means absolutely minimal melta presence (1, maybe 2 in 1500 points), no solid state weapons other then bolters, and restrictions to only a few different types of vehicles using plasma weaponry. For instance, Dreadnoughts would only be able to use a plasma cannon or lascannon as their weapon mount.

 

So, since this eliminates most of the vehicles in the SM garage, you can make a Land Raider Executioner to compensate. Something like this beast.

 

Land Raider Executioner: 270 points

AV 14 all around, BS4

Hull mounted plasma cannon, two plasma hurricane sponsons

6 model carrying capacity

PotMS

When you fire the plasma hurricanes, if half or more of your shots miss, the LRE suffers a penetrating hit, resolved after the LRE's shooting attack.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

All plasma weapons can re-roll on a Gets Hot! roll to determine if the weapon explodes (as plasma weapons are of high manufacturing standard).

Devastator units can take PCs for the same price as MMs, MLs, and HBs, in addition they can only take one MM and one LC and no MLs (great quantities of plasma weapons lower price, MLs replaced - other weapon skills stunted due to specialisation).

Plasma Pistols and Plasma Guns cost -5 points as usual (higher quantities of plasma weapons).

 

Pricing things to represent how rare/common they are isn't a great balance move - in this case, it makes plasma weapons severely undercosted. Find another way to make plasma weapons more interesting/better for the chapter, but make it fairly priced. Perhaps make 'em Master-crafted to make the exploding less likely. Maybe reintroduce the old "Plasma Blaster" (a twin-linked plasmagun/stormbolter-style plasmagun) for Terminators? If the army focuses on assaults, maybe switch plasmaguns out for plasmacarbines, with a lower range, but assault.

 

Dropping the autocannon options from the Dread might be a good balancing factor, since those are a powerful option in the SM 'dex.

 

Basically, find a way to fit the Plasma-theming to your army in a way beyond just making 'em cheaper, but don't go too overboard.

[Bannus]

The biggest flaw to this concept is that you have taken one of the most effective weapons in the Space Marine arsenal - which is partially balanced by its limited availability - and made it common. Adding insult to injury, you have limited the drawback of the weapon (Gets Hot!) and rewarded yourself for it by also reducing its price.

 

At every step of the process, you have to always ask yourself "would I have fun playing against these rules?" - I don't think I would against these rules.

 

If you want plasma to be dominant, you are going to have to give yourself some serious drawbacks to offset this.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Hmmm, one thought. In 'dexes with no-gets-hot Plasma (Eldar, Dark Eldar and Tau), the strength of the weapon is lowered to either 5 or 6. This seems to suggest that S7 Plasma is unstable. Perhaps your chapter has found the secret to stable plasma, at the cost of strength? Slightly cheaper S5 Plasma with no Gets Hot! would be more reasonable.

[DerekLee688]

Vehicles don't have to worry about "gets hot". Only your HQ's and named characters and such should be the only ones that don't get that rule. Perhaps if you had an apropriately costed special HQ or squad upgrade character to give one squad heatless plasma weaponry.

 

Plasma pistol and devestator PC are the only plasma I see that needs a price redux, if kept unmodified.

 

Cost, Range, Accuracy, relability, availability, crippling rules(gets hot)- these are what make a balanced weapon. The only way you can make all these better across the board is to have 25pt. tac marines carrying 20-25pt. plasma weapons that still suck at CC and die just as easily as 16pt. tac marines.

[BearersOfSalvation]

However, considering some of the 5th Edition stuff I don't think this would be such an issue. For example, the rules for Vulkan He'stan are pretty insane, twin linked meltas and master crafted thunderhammers...that is one SMACKDOWN CC army.

 

He costs a good bit and gives up combat tactics to get to get those bonuses - so none of the 'if you shoot me I choose to fall back' or 'I choose to run out of combat so I can shoot-charge next turn' that regular marines can pull. He doesn't get special rules that let him take more melta, thunder hammers, and plasma than regular marines. You also can't combine him with a second HQ to get stubborn for your squads. It looks like you are setting this up as a chapter tactics instead of just a generic rule, but you are still giving yourself way more flexibility than other marines if it's just a 'chapter rule' - you could take two librarians, or Sicarius and a Librarian and still get it, or in low points games just take a cheap chaplain to lead instead of an expensive hero.

 

The rules you're coming up with really sound like the usual 'my special rules mean I pay less points for the stuff I use and theoretically would pay more or am forbidden from using stuff I wouldn't use anyway'. I mean, reducing the price of plasma weapons for your guys, plus making them closer to twin-linked, then 'paying for it' by increasing the price on devastator squad loadouts you won't actually use anyway? Really? IMO if you make up a custom codex and show it to a player who plays the vanilla version (whether it's CSM, BT, BA, SW, or chaos) with an army built around similar units to yours, they should not say 'why am I bothering to play with vanilla, I'll just use your rules they're better'.

[Xythan]

However, considering some of the 5th Edition stuff I don't think this would be such an issue. For example, the rules for Vulkan He'stan are pretty insane, twin linked meltas and master crafted thunderhammers...that is one SMACKDOWN CC army.

 

He costs a good bit and gives up combat tactics to get to get those bonuses - so none of the 'if you shoot me I choose to fall back' or 'I choose to run out of combat so I can shoot-charge next turn' that regular marines can pull. He doesn't get special rules that let him take more melta, thunder hammers, and plasma than regular marines. You also can't combine him with a second HQ to get stubborn for your squads. It looks like you are setting this up as a chapter tactics instead of just a generic rule, but you are still giving yourself way more flexibility than other marines if it's just a 'chapter rule' - you could take two librarians, or Sicarius and a Librarian and still get it, or in low points games just take a cheap chaplain to lead instead of an expensive hero.

 

The rules you're coming up with really sound like the usual 'my special rules mean I pay less points for the stuff I use and theoretically would pay more or am forbidden from using stuff I wouldn't use anyway'. I mean, reducing the price of plasma weapons for your guys, plus making them closer to twin-linked, then 'paying for it' by increasing the price on devastator squad loadouts you won't actually use anyway? Really? IMO if you make up a custom codex and show it to a player who plays the vanilla version (whether it's CSM, BT, BA, SW, or chaos) with an army built around similar units to yours, they should not say 'why am I bothering to play with vanilla, I'll just use your rules they're better'.

 

Great feedback man, seriously.

 

So what do you suggest? Just ideas, not concrete.

[spartan249]

How about you make a Chapter Master or Captain with your chapter tactics. Something like this.

 

160 pts

Regular Captain stats

Artificer Armor, Iron Halo

Plasma gun, Relic Blade

 

Chapter Tactics: All units in the army lose Combat Tactics. Models equipped with a plasma gun, plasma pistol, or plasma cannon count as having the Feel No Pain USR when resolving Gets Hot! wounds. Tactical Squads may replace their Lascannon with a Plasma gun at no additional cost.

 

Then, remove the Land Raider Redeemer and Crusader and replace it with a Land Raider Executioner, mounted with a twin-linked plasma cannon on each sponson and a hull-mounted auspex granting Acute Senses, with a 12 model transport capacity for 240 points.

 

I think that's about as far as you should go, as any more then this requires a whole fandex to represent, and that's a whole other ball park.

[Bannus]

You might want to look at how little you can change the Codex to get the desired result before you look at how much you can change it.

 

Back in 2nd edition, there was an article in White Dwarf that showed how players could customize their Chapters without seriously affecting the game. For example, the rules for the Salamanders allowed for one Tactical Squat to replace all of their bolters with flamers. The Scythes of the Emperor had to take at least as many Scout Squads as Tactical Squads, etc.

 

In this case, the Space Marine Codex already allows for a lot of plasma weaponry. How about allowing one Tactical Squad to replace all of its bolters with plasma guns - and make no other changes?

[spartan249]

Um... one full tactical squad with all plasma guns? I don't like the sound of that at all. First off, it's going to have to cost a fortune (150 points for the full squad, resulting in 300 some odd points), and second, I don't think anyone would want to fight something that ridiculous, especially given how powerful this can become when they are placed in a bolstered ruin and joined by a librarian with null zone.

 

EWWWW.

[Bannus]

Um... one full tactical squad with all plasma guns? I don't like the sound of that at all. First off, it's going to have to cost a fortune (150 points for the full squad, resulting in 300 some odd points), and second, I don't think anyone would want to fight something that ridiculous, especially given how powerful this can become when they are placed in a bolstered ruin and joined by a librarian with null zone.

 

EWWWW.

By limiting it to one unit, you limit the impact on the tabletop. Yes, it gets expensive, thus limiting the size of the unit (if not, then you limit the size of the army instead) and casualties in the unit would also serve as discouragement (I would not advocate actually altering the rules for the weapon itself).

 

Yes, it is horribly expensive. If the OP wants plasma weapons to be abundant in his army, it will have to be expensive to be balanced.

[spu00sed]

What about different plasma weapons?

 

I can remember some article in WD about the first tyranid wars and the Ultramarines 1st Company. Their capatain had a special assault 2 plasma gun.

 

What about adding them as chatracter weapon option.

 

Plasma grenades

 

4+ save against gets hot, which may be taken in addition to any other saves

 

Terminators with assault 3 plasma guns

[gabriel5885]

Why don´t you go with plasma weapons that explode in 1-2 in a roll to hit, it would somehow balance the things up, and you could try to field an all plasma squad in a friendly game to check how the fare in the real world.

Another option is that they explode in a roll of 1 but instead of killing a single marine they use a small templat, affecting the squad thy are in.