Just played my 46th draigo wing game

[nurglez]

Might even get pictures, though I doubt it as I always forget to take them during the game as I get caught up in the moment :D

[nurglez]

Just a quick update, due to time limit we only had time for two 1500 point games, vs skavenids. I won the first (8-1 kill points) and lost the second, my first loss! He picked the mission, the deployment and who went first (capture and control, dawn of war, I went first but then he done stole the initiative:( )as a handicap to me, but I made a few silly mistakes that saw me tabled by the end of the 5th turn (DOH!).

 

mini battle reports shall follow, busy watching film with the GF :lol:

[Daedalus Templarius]

Tomorrow I'll be going against a combination of eldar, tau, and 'nids with...

 

Draigo & 5 paladins

Librarian & 6 paladins

Psyrifle Dread

Vindicare

2x Dreadknights with flamer, teleporter, sword

 

Quite a bit different than my normal 2x LR build. We'll see how it goes.

[nurglez]

Sounds interesting, fill us in with how it goes and good luck:D

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is an article I just posted on my own blog comparing a squad of five Paladins versus 10 GKT. It will appear over on BoLS later this week. I'd appreciate it if you guys could take a quick peek and see what ya think then share your thoughts. I can still edit the article before it goes live on BoLS...

 

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2011/05/d...dins-vs-10.html

 

G ;)

[jeffersonian000]

Black Orange, nice article. One querstion, though: why take Extra Armour on your LRC? I'd think a Multi-Melta would be a more reasonable choice.

 

SJ

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Extra armor is a backup in case for whatever reason Fortitude fails to work.

 

G :)

[Oiad]

@Black Orange: One of the other elements I like about Paladins in comparison to Terminators is the ability to take a single model upwards. While footslogging a single Paladin is almost asking for trouble, the ability to take less than 5 makes it a lot easier for transport issues - i.e. if I want to take an IC or two with a TDA retinue, in a Godhammer. Arguably this can also be done (once) with GKTs, by taking Mordrak and his ghost squad.

[Zagman]

Here is an article I just posted on my own blog comparing a squad of five Paladins versus 10 GKT. It will appear over on BoLS later this week. I'd appreciate it if you guys could take a quick peek and see what ya think then share your thoughts. I can still edit the article before it goes live on BoLS...

 

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2011/05/d...dins-vs-10.html

 

G :P

 

There are a couple of things I disagree with in your article. Warding stave on the Libby is most common.... psybolts on 5 paladins... neither is a very points efficient build. You also say that paladins can cast hammerhand as a shooting attack, you meant holocaust( you said it won't do much in your article, its an S5 Large blast template, It wounded 11 orks in one round of shooting yesterday...far more damaging than a stormbolter in some situations). You also talk about the apothecary as a viable addition to a paladin squad, again, not points efficient. Don't forget that footslogging paladins with Dreadknights is a viable build as well.

 

The biggest problem with your article is that a solid paladin unit costs 315pt(5 unique models, 2 psycannons, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer). Giving rather pointless upgrades doesn't help much. Your terminators cost 470pt with just two psycannons and psybolts.

 

It would have been better to compare the 2x10 terminators versus 10 + 5 paladins. 940 vs 945pts respectively.

 

Now you have 2/4 scoring units vs 2/3. 4 psycannons vs 6. 20 vs 30 wounds. The comparison gets much better once use equivalent point units. And remember the initial comparison will favor the terminators in damage potential, but the paladins can take many wounds without losing any combat effectiveness, that is their true strength.

 

As to your list, how are you running that. A single vehicle to be alpha strike. Combat squad paladins, Libby and Driago with combat squad in LRC? That leaves DSing paladins and DSing Termies and no AT besides 6 totals Psycannons. How has this list been doing???

[Gentlemanloser]

BO,

 

If you are going to compare 5 Pallies versus 10 Terminators, and just wave away the 100 point difference for extra SB shots, you should really note that you can use those extra points for 5 Strikes or Purifiers.

 

Not only getting back the missing SB shots, but gaining extra wounds and CC attacks on top.

[nurglez]

holocaust is pretty good at times, especially vs hordes, but even vs meq's, by generating a high amount of hits, you can force saves, and all it costs you is 2 str 4-5 shots (depending if you bought psybolts or not).

 

Also, paladins have several other bonuses vs regular terminators. WS5 helps on the hitting, but it also helps when being hit, WS 5 models hitting them will only hit on a 4+, and also if you suffer perils of the warp, the model casting it has a higher chance to survive (depending on how many wounds he had when you cast your psychic ability), on a failed perils regular terminators will likely lose their justicar or some other model, lowering their impact.

 

I also agree with Zagman, that you should compare equal points. of course, comparing squads in a vacuum is debatable. but 15 paladins compared to 20 terminators is a better comparison. I also seem to agree that the apothecary is generally not worth it, I haven't used one yet, but I just cant seem to find the points (and I generally combat squad my 10 man, only in kill point games do I not combat squad).

 

And of course, worth mentioning in the grand scheme of things is Draigo, while expensive, if you attach him to that lovely 10 man squad, he can absorb a few instant death causing hits, also on the subject of instant death, while yes it hurts and sucks, I generally throw the wound on someone who is allready hurt (situational of course).

 

I had draigo and the 10man squad receive a charge from 16 genestealers, who all had preferred enemy due to a nearby hive tyrant, at the end of the combat I hadn't lost a model, yet suffered quite a few wounds, I then won the combat quite comfortably. I wonder how a squad of regular terminators would have looked if I had taken them instead ;)

[Daedalus Templarius]

I had draigo and the 10man squad receive a charge from 16 genestealers, who all had preferred enemy due to a nearby hive tyrant, at the end of the combat I hadn't lost a model, yet suffered quite a few wounds, I then won the combat quite comfortably. I wonder how a squad of regular terminators would have looked if I had taken them instead :D

 

 

They'd probably look pretty dead! Or at least at such strength that they wouldn't be hitting back for very much. Where was your lib for I10 :P

[nurglez]

I dont use a libby at 1500 points, and also quickening is only for your turn, he charged me (a better question would be where was your libby to cast sanctuary :D)

[Zagman]

I had draigo and the 10man squad receive a charge from 16 genestealers, who all had preferred enemy due to a nearby hive tyrant, at the end of the combat I hadn't lost a model, yet suffered quite a few wounds, I then won the combat quite comfortably. I wonder how a squad of regular terminators would have looked if I had taken them instead :D

 

 

They'd probably look pretty dead! Or at least at such strength that they wouldn't be hitting back for very much. Where was your lib for I10 :P

 

You'll notice he said receive the charge.... Quicksilver is only your movement phase and only for your turn.

[Zagman]

I dont use a libby at 1500 points, and also quickening is only for your turn, he charged me (a better question would be where was your libby to cast sanctuary :D)

 

Right, Sanctuary is phenomenal.

 

I had Driago and 10 paladins take a Ghazgul Waaagh charge from a 12 boy unit and a 30 boy unit. With positioning slightly limiting models in contact, sanctuary, reroll 1s on the paladins(thanks Driago), I killed 39 models, losing 3.

 

Outnumbered by the orks over 6:1, ended the game having lost 6 models and wiped the Orks off of the board. Sanctuary was phenomenal.

[Zagman]

Double Post

[Daedalus Templarius]

You'll notice he said receive the charge.... Quicksilver is only your movement phase and only for your turn.

 

Isn't there some discussion as to whether it is for the game turn or player turn? I imagine that will be cleared up in an FAQ, but you're probably right, I10 in both player turns would be a bit OP.

 

And yes, sanctuary is crazy good.

[Zagman]

You'll notice he said receive the charge.... Quicksilver is only your movement phase and only for your turn.

 

Isn't there some discussion as to whether it is for the game turn or player turn? I imagine that will be cleared up in an FAQ, but you're probably right, I10 in both player turns would be a bit OP.

 

And yes, sanctuary is crazy good.

Shouldn't be. Unless specified "turn" means player's turn.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I used the example of 5 Paladins versus 10 GKT since it's easier for me to compare the two. 15 Paladins versus 20 GKT can get quite cumbersome. Also I'm planning to run a mix so this works better for me. I fixed the Holocaust typo - thanks for that. I've played a game versus Nidz with a subset of my army winning by a margin of 8 to 1 killpoints. Sure Nidz/horde don't match up well versus GK and one game alone is not a robust sample but it provided some valuable insight. The reason why I'm not big on Holocaust is due to it's short range - you're possibly using a psychic test in the shooting phase that would be better served in the assault phase - YMMV. I did add a section on transportation - obviously this is a big advantage for Paladins albeit the additional cost for a landraider or Stormraven. My main conclusion is the GKT only provide more shooting via the additional stormbolters. The mathammer is for very specific examples and does not reflect well given a wider sample of in game situations - it's there just to provide a simple comparison.

 

G :)

[Gentlemanloser]

I used the example of 5 Paladins versus 10 GKT since it's easier for me to compare the two.

 

But then it's an unbalanced comparison.

 

For example;

 

10 x GKT, 2 x Psycannons (450)

 

10 TDA Wounds.

16 SB Shots

8 Relentless Psycannons Shots

20 WS4 CC attacks

 

5 x Paladin, 2 x Psycannon + 5 x Purifiers, 1 x Psycannon (445)

 

10 TDA Wounds (weaker to ID)

5 PA Wounds

14 SB Shots

8 Relentless Psycannon Shots

4 Normal Psycannon Shots

10 WS5 CC attacks

10 WS4 CC attacks

 

Better than the termies in *every* aspect (with the slight disadvantage to ID attacks). Ok, ok, Scoring aside, before someone jumps on me. ;)

 

And if DS is really necessary, drop the Purifiers for the cheaper strikes. You lose out on 5 CC attacks, but you save 20 points. And those 25 points can get you quite a bit. :tu: Even if it's to spend some on Master Crafting the two Paladin Psycannons.

 

Comparing just 5 Pallies to 10 Terminators is pointless.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It's not pointless if you look at the type of army I'm planning to play. I can take either five Paladins or 10 GKT as another troop choice.

 

G :cuss

[Gentlemanloser]

You can take 5 Pallies and some PAGK for the cost of 10 Terminators. (Or if you're anti PA, then a few more Pallies! :))

 

Still, I wasn't aware the comparison of the units was based on the specifics of your list though. I thought it was a more general comparison. :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The article is about Draigowing... so no power armor. Some of the discussion can be used for a general comparison between the two units such as the inclusion of an apothecary or Thawn. In regards to power armor lists I think the general consensus is take Purifiers since they mech up for cheap but I can see Paladins as a good choice as well. Probably MSU style lists will be most popular for competitive play at the tourney level.

 

G ;)

[nurglez]

Right, been a few days since my battles but I have time to sit down and write, so here we go!

 

Draigo wing vs skavenids, 1500 points, my army is around here somewhere (draigo, 15 pallies 1 dreadknight), Commander Sasha's skavenids army was: hive tyrant with twin linked devourers, bone sword lash whip, hive commander, old adversary, 1 tyrant guard, 2 hive guard, 2 zoanthropes in a spore, 19 gaunts with an assault 3 gun in a spore, 2x10 genestealers, tervigon and 3 shrikes with 1 barbed strangler.

 

First game, kill points, dawn of war, I won the roll and went second, he deployed his tyrant and 2 squads of genestealers in the centre of the board as far forward as possible, I deployed nothing, bringing on everything in my first turn apart from the dreadknight which was normal reserved.

 

I won this game 8 kill points to 1.

 

I came on and killed his tyrant guard and took a wound off his tyrant, and also killed 4 genestealers, he charged me with the genestealers and had also hit me with some psychic ability that reduced my 10man squad to WS and BS 1, I was incredibly lucky and made quite a few saves, wiping out the squads due to no retreat wounds. Next turn I charged a lone draigo at his hive tyrant for some fun (i'd taken a charge from 2 of his hardest squads and had only lost a single model due to a perils of the warp and then shooting from the tyrant). draigo and the hive tyrant killed each other. then it was just a mop up, once I'd inflicted more then 4 kill points the only way he could have won would have been to table me (as I only have 4 kill points if I dont combat squad the 10man).

 

So we had lunch (thanks loads Commander Sasha:D ), and then he asked me if we can play again, but if he chose the mission, set up and who went first.

 

Second game, capture and control, dawn of war, I deployed first and combat squaded the 10 man and deployed draigo with one of them, as far forward as possible, the 5 man squad walking in on the first turn and the scoring dreadknight was reserved. He deployed his hive tyrant and 2 genestealer squads in a building, and then stole the initiative.

 

I was tabled by turn 5, I forgot that the grey knight army is a shooty and close combat army, and also that the way I handled the charge from 2 genestealer squads was with a 10man. Draigo fluffed his saves early on and his 5 man squad got munched, I charged the other half of the 10man squad in but they got bogged down as well, my 5 man squad came on, got pounced on by 2 mycetic spores, and instant deathed by zoanthropes warp lance thingy. When my dreadknight finally came on, he got pounced on by the shrikes and due to their lashwhip didn't kill anything before he died.

 

I should have kept the 10man squad together, these guys are nasty, and as there were only 2 objectives I should have thrown them at his and left the dreadknight to handle my home one, oh well, my first loss, but to a wonderful opponent.

 

I managed to take some pictures of the second game, most of them are from the second turn when he deepstruck most things near my objective (the glowly green thing).

 

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c397/nurglez/IMAG0042.jpghttp://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c397/nurglez/IMAG0044.jpg

before shooting

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c397/nurglez/IMAG0047.jpgafter shooting (and the 5p pieces are the wound counters for the pallies :lol:

[http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c397/nurglez/IMAG0046.jpg

the red and black storm vermin are his genestealers, slowly but surely taking down my pallies in the meatgrinder, while some spawned/summoned ratgaunts are waiting to get the charge in

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c397/nurglez/IMAG0043.jpg

the screaming bell is his tervigon, hiding near his objective

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Interesting second game - I learned quite a bit reading that. Thanks for sharing. ;)

 

G :lol: