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Tactica: Tactical Terminators


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#1
Mysticaria

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Special thanks to Lard O'Blood and Darkguard for contributing to this article. Lard O'Blood compiled all of the terminator discussion references and helped me edit the draft article before posting here. Meanwhile Darkguard really helped with the organization of the article, provided substantial inputs to the first draft, and really tried to help me keep the article fair and balanced. Hopefully the end result is an honest assessment of Tactical Terminators and can be helpful to you in playing with these often overlooked warriors. Please feel to discuss or debate anything in here. Your questions may help identify something I missed or something that could be better explained. Thanks for your time. -Myst

Tactical Terminators
It seems like once a month or so, a thread pops up and compares Assault Terminators to Tactical Terminators. Or someone asks how competitive are Tactical Terminators, which of course doesn't take long to turn into the above mentioned compare and contrast. During the course of these threads, we’ve rehashed the same debate in fairly good detail. This article intends to focus on the topic from a Tactical Terminator perspective, and hopefully will answer future questions on this topic. The bottom line is that Tactical Terminators are awesome units that present some unique capabilities to the Space Marine Commander. They can be extremely competitive in the right army, but like most units they do have weaknesses.

Note: This tactica is written from a Codex: Space Marine perspective. I know that Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Space Wolves can run some competative versions of Tactical Terminators, but sadly I do not have the experience to comment intelligently on those armies. Please feel free to add your thoughts if you consider yourself to be a knowledgable Terminator officianado for one of those forces.

Part of the fun in playing games of 40K is figuring out how to maximize your army’s strengths and limit its weaknesses. If you play a shooting army, you might ask, “How can I neutralize the enemies threats without letting them get close?” If you play a drop pod army you might ask, “What enemy units should I target first because they pose the biggest threat?” This concept of the general putting his/her army into the best position to excel is essential to understand when using Tactical Terminators. There is no other unit that relies on the general to make them shine as much as these guys… and isn’t that fun when you get it right? If you have written off Tactical Terminators in favor of other options in the codex, or have been considering playing with them but just haven’t, here are some reasons to reconsider.

What Tactical Terminators Are:
- Flexible: Good in multiple roles, have lots of deployment options, unlock land raiders, good weapon options
- Infantry: They can run, can get cover, can go to ground, can ride in Land Raider transports, and can get shot at
- Shooty: Above avg shooting. Effective in multiple shooting roles at multiple ranges (anti-infantry within 24” and anti-transport/monster within 48”)
- Choppy: Above avg close combat. Effective against most units. Power fists and 2+ are strong, 5++ invul is potential liability
- Relentless: Ability to move and shoot is vital; keeping range at optimal is essential, even when optimal range is 0”
- Resilient: 2+/5++, ATSKNF, not vulnerable to single shots like dreds & LRs
- Expensive: At 40 points each plus weapon upgrades, they are fairly expensive
- Available: A hobby concern and not a tactics one, but it’s true. They are in Black Reach and on e-bay.

What Tactical Terminators Aren’t:
- Bullies: Tac Termies are not always better in both combat and shooting; sometimes they are only better in one area and must play to their strength
- Assault Terminators: TH/SS Termies are top of the heap in close combat. Tac Termies are not. They need to use all their tools
- Devastators/Sternguard: Tac Termies will often be out-shot by dedicated specialists. They need to use all their tools
- Paper Thin: A large squad with 2+ (armor) 4++ (cover) and 5++ (invul) is fairly resilient (in-depth analysis is later in the article)
- Invulnerable: 2+/5++ will lose eventually, especially when not taken in a Land Raider. Smart play is essential to survival/effectiveness.

Strengths:
Shooty Weapons:
- Cyclone missile launchers:This is a very strong weapon addition which doesn’t take away the storm bolter. It adds a capability that the other weapons don’t: Range. Krak missiles are excellent in hunting MCs and light transports/skimmers, while the frag missile goes nicely with storm bolters creating an onslaught against light infantry.
- Heavy Flamer: This weapon option is a good one to choose if the squad is going to be dedicated to hunting infantry. Even though the flamer replaces the storm bolter for the terminator who carries it, it still pairs nicely with the others in the squad and helps define the role a little more. There could be some challenge in trying to get a good flame blast with infantry walking only 6” a turn, so this may be a time to consider deep striking or riding in a Land Raider. For extra laughs, try pairing with an Avenger librarian in a Land Raider Redeemer.
- Assault Canons: Possibly the highest rated option using the “rule of cool”, this weapon’s range banding fits nicely with storm bolters. It has excellent anti-infantry capability but also allows the unit to penetrate AV14 at range, something which the other two weapon options can’t say. This weapon also benefits from a deep strike as the short range means that first turn would likely have been spent running anyway, and assault canon shots on side/rear armor are really solid. Dropped on the flanks where the enemies close combat specialists cannot all get to grips quickly, this weapon could be highly effective.

Chainfists: These are fairly inexpensive at only 5 points per, and give a big boost to the close combat potential versus vehicles. It allows them to deal with Av 13 walkers easily, as powerfists hitting on 4+ and glancing on 5+ isn't exactly desirable. It is also great at discouraging tank shocking, as most opponents will be quite happy to tank shock them with an empty rhino late game in the hope they fall back, a chain fist means you can death or glory and reliably kill something. Finally, the extra different model allows for wound allocation games if the unit ever takes multiple AP wounds along with other non-AP wounds. It’s rare, but it does happen…. There’s been a few times I’ve served up the last chainfist to some plasma fire or power weapon hits while the rest of the squad got to save on 2+ against bolters & chainswords. For the price, it is hard not to include one or two of these since it finishes off the "swiss army" concept, and gives them the tools to deal with any unit in the game.

Powerfists: One of the strengths of this unit is that every model has a power weapon, and most of them have high strength power weapons. (Why does the Sergeant have a sword?) Anyway, Tactical Termies have almost the same offensive output in close combat as TH/SS Termies (ironically the Seargent is the weak link here). They can really put the hurt on most units in the game in close combat. The only real problems here are the relatively low number of attacks and the fact that they are (mostly) initiative 1. These can both be mitigated by avoiding fights with enemy units with lots (for example 10+) high-initiative power weapons and by taking more guys to add resiliency and attacks. A large unit can rely on a 2+ save giving up one or two terminators and still swing back for 8-10 kills. And don’t forget to take saves with the Seargent first, especially if he’s already attacked since losing him at Initiative 3 or Initiative 4 doesn’t reduce the number of attacks the Terminators will have that round.

Makes Games More Interesting: Tactical Terminators fill a variety of roles, and in each given matchup it is up to the player to determine what their strength is and what their weakness is. For example, going up against 30 Ork Boys, a Tactical Terminator player might realize that their strength is shooting and their weakness is getting assaulted by 120 attacks at I3 (there is only so much 2+ armor can save after all). In this instance, the Tactical Terminators should try to use their shooting until they are able to safely engage in close combat. Meanwhile, against enemy Plague Marines or Command squads with plasma guns, it might be best to get into close combat to neutralize the low-AP shooting and use the fists to stop FNP. The fact that Tactical Terminators have multiple ways to engage an opponent, and can be shooty or choppy or both in any given matchup, leads to more varied games, an really helps them excel in an all-comers list. Contrast with TH/SS for instance, who are always going to be the most choppy unit in the game, and who most likely will head right for the biggest baddest enemy unit in the enemy army. Yes, it is it highly effective. It just isn’t very different from game to game.

People Underestimate Them: I think a lot of this stems from the fact that Assault Terminators are so good, people love that 3++ save, and this has led Tactical Terminators to get somewhat of a bad rep. When a player announces they are playing Space Marines, most opponents expect to see TH/SS Termies in a Land Raider, but not many people are prepared for a unit of 10 terminators that simply lines up across the board. Admittedly this is a small advantage since the better your opponent is, the more prepared they will be for something unusual, but there is something to be said for playing well with a unit that isn’t universally popular everywhere.

Deployment Options: Tactical Termies have the option to deep strike, can take LR as dedicated transport, and can use combat squads. If they are equipped with CMLs, they probably won’t Deep Strike often because it misses out on firing the missiles for at least a turn, but even then its nice to have the option available when the game calls for all-reserve strategy. Assault Canons and Heavy Flamers are more likely to make use of this option, as are armies that have included teleport homers. Combat squads can be good when you have Shooty weapons, since you can create a really tough devastator (double missile), Sternguard (double flamer) or Ultima (double Canon) squad and still have a relatively strong bolter/power weapon squad.

Weaknesses:
Expensive: They are expensive with a minimum squad costing 200 points. Generally though, they are going to run a lot more than that. Consider that 5 guys with an Assault Canon are 230 points (more than most fully upgraded tactical squads) and that 10 guys with 2x CMLs and 2x chainfists is 470 points (sliightly more than 5x TH/SS in a Land Raider).

No Storm Shield: They get only 5++ against power weapons, and only a 5++ or 4++ against low AP shooting depending on cover. Obviously this is not as good as the 3++ that TH/SS Terminators claim. The fact that they save only half of the power weapon wounds that TH/SS Terminators save really illustrates the different roles that these two units serve, and highlights that Tactical Terminators are giving up a lot for access to Storm Bolters, CMLs, Heavy Flamers, Assault Canons, and Chainfists.

Weak in small units: Let’s face it. Having a unit of 3 terminators with storm bolters is not that exciting. They aren’t really going to be killing much with their bolters, and if they get into combat they are probably only going to kill 2-3 enemies. That isn’t overwhelming by any means. If these foot-walking infantry are taken in minimum sized squads with no special weapons, they can quickly be whittled down into something that isn’t much of a threat.

Building on Strengths; Mitigating Weaknesses:
In the Intro section, I mentioned that part of the fun in playing games of 40K is figuring out how to maximize your army’s strengths and limit its weaknesses. Since Tactical Terminators have lots of strengths and a few weaknesses, it is up to the player to understand how all of those fit together and to put those troops in position to excel. This concept of the general putting his/her army into the best position to excel is essential to understand when using Tactical Terminators. I mentioned earlier that one big weakness of Tactical Terminators is that they traded their storm shields for access to various shooty weapons. One of the keys to using them effectively is to make the best use of those shooty weapons (gain) while mitigating the weakness imposed by not having storm shields (loss). If a player can gain more than they give up, they should realize a increase in potential (net gain).

The first weakness I want to talk about is that Tactical Terminators are relatively weak in small squads. This is actually fairly simple to mitigate with these two ideas. 1) Take 10 guys. Now when you lose a couple, you’ve still got 8 left, which is a formidable unit. 2) Take Shooty weapons. Even in a unit of 5 guys, losing 2-3 is not that big of a deal because the real strength of the unit, the Shooty weapon, is still firing at 100% effectiveness. This works best if a player is not planning on running a giant terminator deathstar, since 230-235 points is not cost prohibitive and since the enemy has to work hard to get rid of the shooty weapon.

Now let’s talk about mitigating the 3++/5++ gap. Since we are discussing how to mitigate the lack of storm shields, the next paragraph will make direct comparison to TH/SS Terminator units. Since TH/SS units are nearly always taken with a Land Raider that costs at least 250 points, a comparable unit of Tactical Terminators will nearly always number 10 models with some upgrades. Against shooting there is cover. A unit of 10 terminators is big, really big, and can easily walk behind rhinos, tanks and terrain to claim a 4++ cover save. The 5 extra guys that could be added in place of the land raider are going to take a while to kill, even with a 4++ save, essentially increasing the resiliency of the unit not through 3++ save, but through having extra bodies that can die before losing effectiveness. Finally, there are some characters can be added to the unit to make them even more resilient (Lysander) or who can negate the other guys advantage if they are high invul save models like TH/SS Terminators (libby). While Lysander is good with TH/SS termies, he’s even better in Tac Termies because he adds more capability (he adds 3++, Wounds, Attacks, and Bolter Drill to Tactical Temies whereas he only adds Wounds and Attacks to the TH/SS Termies).

In close combat, special characters can’t take power weapon wounds for the squad. This is where Tactical Terminators should use their mobility and shooting, and indeed the rest of the army as well, to avoid getting into combats where they will be overmatched. At the start of each game, the Tactical Terminator player will need to identify units that they want to avoid combat with while still at full strength. The player should then use movement to maximize the length of time the other player takes to get into combat, and should use shooting to whittle down the enemy unit. Careful use of tactical tricks like these will help:
-- Placement of rhinos, tanks, speeders to make sure enemy can’t pass through
-- Bubble-wrapping tactical squads if no other way to prevent getting assaulted
-- Careful monitoring of enemy assault range, use relentless movement to stay back and keep shooting
-- Utilize melta and anti-transport capability on enemy open-topped or assault vehicles to reduce assault range
-- Utilize terrain against fast opponents without grenades (i.e. Tyranids, Ork Nobs, etc..)
-- Assault once enemy is weakened sufficiently… shoot then assault can be devastating
-- Charge the enemy when you can… 3 attacks versus 2 is substantial

Army Composition:
In the previous section I recommended taking large squads and adding special weapons. Obviously both of these solutions will increase the cost of an already expensive unit. Taking 10 Terminators with 2x CMLs and 2x Chainfists and the cost is at 470 points for just a single unit. This is only 10 points more than a unit of 5 TH/SS Termies and their Land Raider (with multimelta/without extra armor) and it’s about the same as 2 tactical squads in rhinos. The only answer to the expense of this unit is the old cliché “you get what you pay for”. If a player is spending this much on a single unit, it should be the centerpiece of the army. The army should be built knowing that a big expensive unit is going to be included. They should take care to select other units that can cover their weaknesses, and can add to their strengths, and should have a game plan in mind for the army that will utilize this key unit. To get the most out of a unit of Tactical Terminators, a general should build an army around them as the core of an army. Support units should be included that can either build on their strengths, or cover their weaknesses. We discussed the tactics above, but now let’s look at some of the different units that can be included in an army with these same goals in mind.

Covering Weaknesses
-- Against low AP blasts like Vindicators - Multimelta/Meltagun tactical squad comes with anti-tank and a rhino to provide cover, melta speeders/bikes to hunt tanks
-- Against low AP shooting - Use movement to stay out of rapid fire range, use units/vehicles (vindicators are good here for offensive output) to provide cover
-- Against TH/SS Termies - Stop the Land Raider... Melta units, Black Reach Dread, Vindicators, Librarian w/Null Zone
-- Against Hordes - Tactical squads, Dreads to tarpit, rhinos, dakkapreds, vindicatos to block movement and shoot

Build on Strength
-- Take Advantage of Missiles - use more missiles, Typhoon Speeders are awesome as they move/shoot as well as Tac Termies, Devs, Tacs are also good.
-- Take Advantage of Termies 'threat zones' - Scoring units like Tactical Squads can enjoy freedom of movement when near terminators, Dreads, Rifleman, Vindicators
-- Match movement profile - units that move 6" and shoot advance/retreat at the same speed. Dreads and Vindicators come to mind easily

Characters?
Now that I've shown how a large unit of Tactical Terminators is the perfect centerpiece for an army. Now it is time to discuss the various character options and how they affect Tactical Terminators. There are quite a few characters that are worth considering for Tactical Terminators:

Librarian: He’s got a few really good attributes which help out Tactical Terminators. First, he’s cheap at 100 points (or 140 if you want the storm shield for a little 3++ ablative wound). Second, he’s got a psychic hood, so he can try and prevent enemy psyker shenanigans. Third, he’s got Null Zone which can really go a long way to negating a bad matchup. Against TH/SS termies for example, he’s going to put the storm shields’ save rate down to 43% which is comparable to the Tac Termie save rate of 33%. In other words, he takes the difference in save rates from 33% to 10%. Now you’ve got two units going nearly heads up, and Tac Termies hopefully had some shooting first and were starting with more guys to begin with. Finally, he’s got Gate of Infinity which can be used in conjunction with the shooting of Tac Termies and can really augment the army’s game plan. Remember how ‘relentless’ is key because Tac Termies need to engage at their most favorable range in a given matchup? GOI can help with that. Fifth, against big, multi wound targets he will force the opponent to chose between killing terminators or a force weapon, the choice will be even harder with a storm shield on him.

Chaplain: Sure he’s not the most strictly competitive option available by himself, but he’s really cheap and he adds a couple abilities which help out Tac Termies. First, he makes the unit fearless. Let’s face it, there is nothing worse than watching your 600 point unit fail a pinning check at the wrong time, or break from a combat that they were going to win next round. Also, litanies of hate are just as good on powerfists as they are on thunder hammers, and arguably twice as good on chain fists. Getting to swing twice at that passing Land Raider is going to significantly increase the chances of smashing it open. He also adds an ablative wound to the unit with 4++ save…. It can help against occasional plasma guns.

Lysander: Wow! First, if you are taking this guy in a unit of 10 termies you are looking at nearly 700 points… but oh what a 700 points it is. Probably not an option below 1850, this unit is simply amazing if you ever get to try it. Lysander has a set of unique abilities that makes me think he was tailor made for Tactical Terminators. First, he trades combat tactics for Stubborn, which is good since with the 2+ save they can’t reliably play combat tactics games anyway. Second, he adds bolter drill which takes the unit from around 13 bolter hits to around 17. The big boost however, is the Eternal Warrior and 3++ save. Lysander is going to eat the first lascanon, meltagun, plasmagun, demolisher canon, etc… that gets shot at the unit. With a 3++ save, and risking his first 3 wounds, that’s about 9 low AP shots that he’s going to stop each game. Meanwhile, those Tactical Termies by themselves would have lost 4-6 models if they were saving on 4++ or 5++. Finally, the S10 thunder hammer is pure awesome and adds some anti-vehicle/anti-walker punch to the unit, making it even scarier with chainfists. To top it all off, he’s going to bolster a ruin, which could be used if you combat squaded your termies leaving a devastator squad in a 3++ ruin shooting 4 missiles a turn and Lysander going forward with 5-man bodyguard.

Pedro: Slightly cheaper than Lysander, but still on the deathstar side of things. He adds stubborn, and some low AP shooting which is nice, but his big advantage is his +1A Radius. Since Pedro is a little fragile, it’s probably best to have him in with some tactical marines or sternguard somewhere within range to buff the termies but far enough away to be safe. Tactical Terminators get a lot scarier when they threaten charging you with 4x power fist attacks each. Generally, in this scenario, Pedro will enjoy hanging out in a nearby rhino or razorback.

Conclusion:
Tactical Terminators are a highly competative choice in the Space Marine Codex. They can form a very solid core of an army, they are super fun to play with, and they even compare favorably with arguably the strongest unit in the codex: Assault Terminators. Tactical Terminators are expensive however, will often underperform when they are added to an army as an afterthought. They also work best in large units. For these two reasons, I've found that Tactical Terminators work best when they are the core of an army that is designed to take advantage of their strengths and cover their weaknesses. The Cyclone Missile Launchers and Chainfists are some of the best upgrades in the codex, however, and a unit of 10 Terminators with 2 of each is a really strong core for an army.

5th Edition Tactical Terminator Discussion Threads:
Lysander with Tactical Terminators Discussions
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
Tactical Terminator Weapon Configuration
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
Army Building and Tactical Terminators
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
Ten Man Terminator Squads
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
Tactical (mostly) Terminator Tactics
http://www.bolterand...p...t=0&start=0
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
Tactical Terminators vs. Assault Terminators
http://www.bolterand...howtopic=219293
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator
http://www.bolterand...p;hl=terminator

-Myst


Tournament Results 2010-2011: W-L-D format
Ultramarines: 5-3-3 *2x Best Paint Winner*
Orks: 2-0-1 *1x First Place*

#2
DarkGuard

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Looks good. Couple of grammar errors but nothing serious, so nothing to worry about. About the conclusion I would reiterate the fact that Terminators are not Assault Terminators, to make it abundantly clear that you can't just charge these guys into anything. Otherwise it looks good, and hopefully this will provoke some useful debate as well.
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Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
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Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#3
TyrionTheImp

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Tactical Terminators are a highly competative choice in the Space Marine Codex.


This is my one real gripe. Especially since you go on to say that the army must be built around them for them to work properly, otherwise they're underwhelming. Most competitive choices are stand alone great units and don't require the army to be built around them. This is also why I believe Assault Terminators aren't competitive either. The points investment is too great and it requires you to build your army around having them.

Can they be effective in the proper army? Yes, but that can be said of almost any choice in the codex barring some of the worst things like Legion of the Damned. Any less competitive choice can be made good if the rest of the army is centered around improving that choice, that's simply how it is, so labeling Tactical Terminators as "highly competitive" can give people the wrong message. They simply aren't, but they can be used in such a way to be more competitive than plugging them into a list without consideration for them.

Other than that, I like it, and I may actually write a list that uses a large squad of Terminators and see how it fares. ;)

#4
Marshal Wilhelm

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Interesting. ^_^

This will do well for my l33t Templar Terminators, with re-rolls to hit in mêlée, 2 CML in a squad of 5 and tank-hunters for +1s against AV :geek:

#5
DarkGuard

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Tactical Terminators are a highly competative choice in the Space Marine Codex.


This is my one real gripe. Especially since you go on to say that the army must be built around them for them to work properly, otherwise they're underwhelming. Most competitive choices are stand alone great units and don't require the army to be built around them. This is also why I believe Assault Terminators aren't competitive either. The points investment is too great and it requires you to build your army around having them.

Can they be effective in the proper army? Yes, but that can be said of almost any choice in the codex barring some of the worst things like Legion of the Damned. Any less competitive choice can be made good if the rest of the army is centered around improving that choice, that's simply how it is, so labeling Tactical Terminators as "highly competitive" can give people the wrong message. They simply aren't, but they can be used in such a way to be more competitive than plugging them into a list without consideration for them.

Other than that, I like it, and I may actually write a list that uses a large squad of Terminators and see how it fares. :)


What would you say a competitive unit is then? I've always been under the impression, brought around the internet of course, that Assault Terminators are competitive, but Honour Guard, Tactical Terminators, TFCs are not. But yet Myst gets good results with Tactical Terminators, Captain Idaho has recently posted a report telling of how his Honour Guard left a trail of dead in ToS, while GC08 not only has TFCs as one of his best units, but he makes a Scout army work as well.

So what is competitive? What choices stand alone? Typhoons? Well if you've just got Typhoons in an infantry army they'll be taken down easily. Dakka Preds? Hardly good without having a can opener. Rifleman? Sure, but then where's your mobility? Where's your side armour shots? In the end, every competitive unit in 40K is competitive because its taken in the right list. So maybe we should be talking about competitive lists. But then I think we both know that the competitiveness of the list comes from how the general uses it. The brilliant thing about 40K is nearly any unit and any list can be competitive, it just depends on who's using it.

As for what Myst says about them. If you had an issue with highly competitive, I can understand, as in Elites I'd put Assault Terminators, Sternguard and Rifleman just ahead of them. But it seems like you're saying that they're not a true competitive choice, and I feel that's unfair. If I've got the wrong end of the stick then I apologise.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#6
TyrionTheImp

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As for what Myst says about them. If you had an issue with highly competitive, I can understand, as in Elites I'd put Assault Terminators, Sternguard and Rifleman just ahead of them. But it seems like you're saying that they're not a true competitive choice, and I feel that's unfair. If I've got the wrong end of the stick then I apologise.


That is basically what I'm saying, they aren't highly competitive, because they simply cost too much and it forces you to build a list around them. Assault Terminators are the same way, and Assault Terminators are great at what they do, but they really require a Land Raider to be effective, and Land Raiders (at least to me) are easily neutralized. Tactical Terminators are similar, in that Myst says you have to bring 10 of them to really get the full feel, and the rather large points investment requires you to make accommodations in your list for them.

As for an example of "competitive stand alone" choices, I'd say MM/HF land speeders (MAYBE Typhoons), Tactical Squads (properly outfitted of course), Bike Squads, Sternguard, and Rifleman Dreads. Why? Because they're relatively cheap for what you get, and can be dangerous against all targets. They'll be good against just about everything you face, and don't cost an arm and a leg to be effective. There's a reason why almost all competitive armies have at least 2 or 3 of these options. This is in contrast to Tactical Terminators that, as Myst recommends, costs over 400 points despite them being a similar swiss army knife.

Does that mean every army should be made just out of those choices that are highly competitive? No, most certainly not, that would be boring, but other choices in the codex generally have a more specialized role that compliments the rest of the army in a way. Like Dakka Preds, as you said they require can openers, but there are very few anti-infantry platforms in the codex that are as sturdy, cheap, and effective as a Dakka Pred, and they're a good choice and competitive but not "highly competitive" because the list requires can openers in it for them to be good.

I'm sure Tactical Terminators are competitive in a list that can accommodate them, however rating them as "highly competitive" makes people think of the "plug into any list and they'll be good" sort, and they simply aren't.

#7
Mysticaria

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Thanks for the thoughts Tyrion. I see what you are saying, but I disagree that the definition of 'Highly Competative' equates to 'cheap and can fit into any list'. To me, that would be something else entirely. Competative to me is a measure of how effective something is at winning a game.

A large squad of tactical terminators is highly competative becuase they are extremely resilient, they have high level of firepower, and they are good in close combat. I feel certain that a large squad of terminators will be more resilient than multiple riflemen dreads, they are definately more damaging and resilient than MM/HF speeders, and do everything better than tactical squads with the exception of scoring. They don't score like tactical squads, they can't quite take down as many light transports as riflemen do, they aren't as cheap as MM/HF speeders, but they are more than capable of helping an army win a game because they can affect all phases of the game. They certainly are an advantage in Kill Point games, and when you combine them with these other efficient units to form a game plan, you can really end up with something quite competative.

The point about dealing with Assault Terminators' Land Raider is a point in favor of tactical terminators that I forgot to include in the article. Against opponents who can quickly deal with a Land Raider, for example all those who take MM/HF speeders because they are cheap and can fit into any army, tactical terminators are going to be much more effective. First, they don't have to worry about losing their ride, and second they'll be able to swat those speeders out of the sky easily.

In conclusion, the competativeness of an army is evaluated based on the entire army, not solely on the units included in the army. Having an expensive unit in an army does not make an army uncompetetive. In case of Tactical Terminator this is especially true, since their higher cost is balanced by their increased resilience. Sure, you could take 2-3 other units in their place, but would you get the same resiliency, killing power, and ability to deal with all possible opponents?

-Myst


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#8
DarkGuard

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As for what Myst says about them. If you had an issue with highly competitive, I can understand, as in Elites I'd put Assault Terminators, Sternguard and Rifleman just ahead of them. But it seems like you're saying that they're not a true competitive choice, and I feel that's unfair. If I've got the wrong end of the stick then I apologise.


That is basically what I'm saying, they aren't highly competitive, because they simply cost too much and it forces you to build a list around them. Assault Terminators are the same way, and Assault Terminators are great at what they do, but they really require a Land Raider to be effective, and Land Raiders (at least to me) are easily neutralized. Tactical Terminators are similar, in that Myst says you have to bring 10 of them to really get the full feel, and the rather large points investment requires you to make accommodations in your list for them.

As for an example of "competitive stand alone" choices, I'd say MM/HF land speeders (MAYBE Typhoons), Tactical Squads (properly outfitted of course), Bike Squads, Sternguard, and Rifleman Dreads. Why? Because they're relatively cheap for what you get, and can be dangerous against all targets. They'll be good against just about everything you face, and don't cost an arm and a leg to be effective. There's a reason why almost all competitive armies have at least 2 or 3 of these options. This is in contrast to Tactical Terminators that, as Myst recommends, costs over 400 points despite them being a similar swiss army knife.

Does that mean every army should be made just out of those choices that are highly competitive? No, most certainly not, that would be boring, but other choices in the codex generally have a more specialized role that compliments the rest of the army in a way. Like Dakka Preds, as you said they require can openers, but there are very few anti-infantry platforms in the codex that are as sturdy, cheap, and effective as a Dakka Pred, and they're a good choice and competitive but not "highly competitive" because the list requires can openers in it for them to be good.

I'm sure Tactical Terminators are competitive in a list that can accommodate them, however rating them as "highly competitive" makes people think of the "plug into any list and they'll be good" sort, and they simply aren't.


In which case I live up to my earlier promise and apologise, that was a well reasoned answer, and I pretty much agree with you. While I don't completely suscribe to that list, I do feel that Bike Squads should be conditional in that list, because of the Captain. That's for another day though, I will admit it's refreshing to see someone so fair minded about the two Terminator squads, in that the Assault Terminators aren't the best thing since sliced bread and do need the list worked around them, much like Tactical Terminators.
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#9
TyrionTheImp

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Thanks for the thoughts Tyrion. I see what you are saying, but I disagree that the definition of 'Highly Competative' equates to 'cheap and can fit into any list'. To me, that would be something else entirely. Competative to me is a measure of how effective something is at winning a game.


Almost all the things I listed are quite effective at winning the game, the fact they're cheap and versatile just makes them that much more competitive to me. I never said cheap either, I said good value for their points. Sternguard are quite expensive, and just as fragile as Tacticals, but cheap combi-weapons and special ammo makes them a huge threat, and capable of dealing with any target.

A large squad of tactical terminators is highly competative becuase they are extremely resilient, they have high level of firepower, and they are good in close combat. I feel certain that a large squad of terminators will be more resilient than multiple riflemen dreads, they are definately more damaging and resilient than MM/HF speeders, and do everything better than tactical squads with the exception of scoring. They don't score like tactical squads, they can't quite take down as many light transports as riflemen do, they aren't as cheap as MM/HF speeders, but they are more than capable of helping an army win a game because they can affect all phases of the game. They certainly are an advantage in Kill Point games, and when you combine them with these other efficient units to form a game plan, you can really end up with something quite competative.


My problem with your argument here is you're comparing the wrong things. Yes, a large squad of TT's is more resilient than a Rifleman Dread (arguable though, Dreads can't die to small arms fire, TT's can), but the Rifleman Dread puts out 4 highly accurate S7 shots. By comparison, the Terminators at 470 per squad (with 2 CMLs and Chainfists) can only put out 4 S8 shots, and 20 storm bolter shots, for nearly 3 times the cost of a single dread. I could also argue MM/HF can effect all phases of the game. They're great at blocking tanks, and assault blocking, they're only 70 points, shouldn't feel bad for putting them in harms way.

In conclusion, the competativeness of an army is evaluated based on the entire army, not solely on the units included in the army. Having an expensive unit in an army does not make an army uncompetetive. In case of Tactical Terminator this is especially true, since their higher cost is balanced by their increased resilience. Sure, you could take 2-3 other units in their place, but would you get the same resiliency, killing power, and ability to deal with all possible opponents?

-Myst


I never said it made an army uncompetitive, merely that if you wished to take a unit you must build your army around that unit, and often times you create a 'rock' list which basically means that one unit's effectiveness against your opponent makes or breaks the army. Thus why Assault Terminators are IMHO overrated, TT's do have the advantage though of being "more versatile" and not so one minded. However, their strength is their weakness too. It's 470 points of "do everything" but it's also 470 of "do nothing well".

@DarkGuard

Yeah, I've never used Assault Terminators outside of my Deathwing list, if you bring 1 Land Raider, you have to bring 2, and if you bring 2, you might as well put termies in both, and then you've got enough points for some tacticals and speeders maybe. Works great in a Vulkan list though I'd imagine.

#10
Shadowstalker Grim

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Really nice work Myst! Comprehensive and interesting. Nice to see the Tactical Terminators finally get a section to themselves! :)


Should help with all the 'whos better...' posts we get about them every week too.....
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#11
Mysticaria

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@tyrion,

True, you never said that a unit had to be cheap to be competative, but you did say tactical terminators are too expensive. Saying something is too expensive to be competative, and then in context, the two units you mentioned as being more competative were 70 and 125 points respectively, so that's where I inferred your meaning that a unit should be cheap and effective to be competative. I agree with you that cost versus benefit is a function of efficiency, and that generally the more efficient unit is the more effective one, but I think you are underselling tactical terminators. I think some of it has to do with the cost, but judging by the rest of your post I think some of it also has to do with your low opinion of tactical terminators. You addressed both their offensive output and resiliency as negatives, and I think both of those are strengths.

Before I go on... saying Sternguard are "just as fragile" as Tactical Terminators is not so accurate, since tactical terminators are far far more resilient. Their armor save is 100% better, and their invul save is... well, you can't divide by zero, so I'll just say it's better. Sternguard are small based and ride in transports, so they are more vulnerable to flamers and anti-transport weapons that hardly affect terminators. And, at 300 points for a 9-man squad with 3 combi meltas, they aren't exactly cheap either. For the cost, I'd say sternguard win on offensive output, while tactical terminators win on resiliency and close combat.

I really think there's no argument about the resiliency of Tactical Terminators compared to either MM/HF speeders or Riflemen Dreds. In any kill points game, both of those units are going down quickly, while the enemy will have to divert a large portion of their army for multiple turns to be able to make an impact on tactical terminators. Your comment arguing that tactical terminators' resiliency being argued because they can die to small arms is not accurate. That's kind of the point of taking a large unit or taking a special weapon... if you lose one of two guys it doesn't hurt their abilities. Meanwhile, if either MM/HF speeder or Rifleman takes hit, even a glancing hit, they could be dead, could lose 50% of their firepower, or minimum they could be 100% silenced for one turn. That is a huge difference in survivability.

Your comment about 470 points of terminators that "does nothing well" is not so accurate. 4 Missile Launchers a turn, a 12" assault range on a unit with a really large footprint that creates about 3-square feet of no-go zone for your opponent, lots of 2+ saves, 20 storm bolter shots against hordes... I'm really not seeing how this is "does nothing well". If you opponent puts one of these squads in the middle of the field and your army is made of tactical squads, MM/HF speeders, and Riflemen... you are going to have an extremely difficult time getting anything safely to the middle of the board.

Sounds like you have a different mentality for building armies. It seems like you are open minded about tactical versus assault terminators, but you may be a little biased against expensive units. You are exactly correct in saying that if you take a large portion of your army, that it needs to make a large impact on the game. That goes the same for all armies, the only difference we're talking about here is what form that large portion of the army will take. If you take tactical terminators, the mentality is that you have a large portion of your army in a resilient, able to deal with anything out there, multi-purpose squad. If you take 3-4 cheaper units, you have the mentality that multiple, individually less resilient, specialist units will be able to have increased resiliency through target saturation, and also will be able to take on all-comers through hopefully having the correct specialist for a given scenario.

@Shadowstalker, thanks. These are old arguments, and I figured after typing them about half a dozen times I might as well try and write them up in an article.

-Myst


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#12
TyrionTheImp

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Before I go on... saying Sternguard are "just as fragile" as Tactical Terminators is not so accurate, since tactical terminators are far far more resilient. Their armor save is 100% better, and their invul save is... well, you can't divide by zero, so I'll just say it's better. Sternguard are small based and ride in transports, so they are more vulnerable to flamers and anti-transport weapons that hardly affect terminators. And, at 300 points for a 9-man squad with 3 combi meltas, they aren't exactly cheap either. For the cost, I'd say sternguard win on offensive output, while tactical terminators win on resiliency and close combat.


Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about Tactical marines, not terminators. Of course TT's are more resilient, hah, wasn't the point I was trying to make, merely pointing out that Sternguard are just as easy to kill as Tactical Marines, but are great because of cheap combi's and special ammo.

I really think there's no argument about the resiliency of Tactical Terminators compared to either MM/HF speeders or Riflemen Dreds. In any kill points game, both of those units are going down quickly, while the enemy will have to divert a large portion of their army for multiple turns to be able to make an impact on tactical terminators. Your comment arguing that tactical terminators' resiliency being argued because they can die to small arms is not accurate. That's kind of the point of taking a large unit or taking a special weapon... if you lose one of two guys it doesn't hurt their abilities. Meanwhile, if either MM/HF speeder or Rifleman takes hit, even a glancing hit, they could be dead, could lose 50% of their firepower, or minimum they could be 100% silenced for one turn. That is a huge difference in survivability.


I usually don't see problems in Kill Points games, such things can be denied through many means, however your argument is the same argument that happens between Infantry and Vehicles all the time, and it still holds true.


Your comment about 470 points of terminators that "does nothing well" is not so accurate. 4 Missile Launchers a turn, a 12" assault range on a unit with a really large footprint that creates about 3-square feet of no-go zone for your opponent, lots of 2+ saves, 20 storm bolter shots against hordes... I'm really not seeing how this is "does nothing well". If you opponent puts one of these squads in the middle of the field and your army is made of tactical squads, MM/HF speeders, and Riflemen... you are going to have an extremely difficult time getting anything safely to the middle of the board.


4 Missiles aren't terribly scary, especially on a 470 point unit. 470 points for 4 missiles, and you waste your 20 storm bolter shots. Even 20 storm bolter shots aren't scary, I can see effectiveness against (4 Kraks and 20 Storm bolters out of assault range can be scary against MC's, and hordes would hate 4 frags and 20 storm bolters), but against mech armies, it just seems meh, especially power armored ones.

Sounds like you have a different mentality for building armies. It seems like you are open minded about tactical versus assault terminators, but you may be a little biased against expensive units. You are exactly correct in saying that if you take a large portion of your army, that it needs to make a large impact on the game. That goes the same for all armies, the only difference we're talking about here is what form that large portion of the army will take. If you take tactical terminators, the mentality is that you have a large portion of your army in a resilient, able to deal with anything out there, multi-purpose squad. If you take 3-4 cheaper units, you have the mentality that multiple, individually less resilient, specialist units will be able to have increased resiliency through target saturation, and also will be able to take on all-comers through hopefully having the correct specialist for a given scenario.


I am quite biased against expensive units. Expensive units are too easily neutralized through assault tar-pitting, torrent fire, or simply avoiding and blocking that area. You only have 6 turns, and every turn that 470 point unit is locked up by something that costs a fraction of that is a win for me and a loss for you. I'm a recent convert to the MSU approach, spreading your points out over more targets and keeping them inexpensive makes target priority difficult for opponents (thus making them more likely to make a mistake), and means that it's harder for my opponent to deal a significant blow to my army in an assault, or sometimes even with shooting. Also, very few units in my armies are "specialist" I like units to have secondary and even tertiary functions for every unit.

#13
Mysticaria

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@Tyrion,

Good arguments and well reasoned.

The only response I rally want to throw out there is that Tactical Terminators are not so easy to deal with by tarpitting, torrent fire, or area denial. They are good enough in close combat to be able to deal with things that would normally be used to tarpit, especially if there is a large group of them. A small squad of 5 guys with missile launcher could be tarpitted, but I've never seen a cheap unit deal with a 10-strong unit of termies before. Also, they are resilient enough to be able to resist torrent fire, and if the enemy tries something like this they are going to need at least half their army for multiple turns, and that's not taking into account any characters that might be in their as well. And finally, they are really good at controlling space. Most times they are the ones denying the enemy the ground that is needed, especially if the terminator player is using terrain, transports, and relentless movement to their advantage.

Oh, and I also wanted to address your point on the missiles because this is one that has come up lots. Sure, 4 missiles for 470 is not the best offensive output in the game. It's something like 115 points per missile. If you took Typhoons, or Devestators you'd be getting more than twice the number of missile shots. True. And, if you fire missiles at a transport, aren't the storm bolters wasted? Not really. You have to remember it is about the whole package... not just the shooting. You have to consider movement, shooting, close combat ability, area denial, etc... Storm bolters are there for when the right target comes along. Once that transport is busted, once you are facing Tyranids or Orks, etc.. Missiles are there for when you are facing MEQs in rhinos, landspeeders, dreads, etc... There is nothing wrong with moving for a couple turns and getting easy kill points with missiles, and then using storm-bolter charges against the enemy troops. 6 turns is a long time, especially when you are using movement to get where you want to be. That's 36" of moving and shooting, not even counting any assaults and consolidation moves, and you should be able to be anywhere you want by the end of the game... moving and shooting 5-6 times and wiping units in close combat to boot.

-Myst


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#14
Shadowstalker Grim

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I think one of the things that would scare me if i ran a 10 strong terminator unit is if I was facing an opponent who had lots of power weapons....


A squad like howling banshees for instance might cut down a few with lots of power weapons, or something like honour guard or vanguard vets. They may not cut down all of them, but with only the 5+ to protect them you'll be taking some serious hits for every single one they remove (at least the ones that are left are going to put some hurt back onto the enemy)! This is also potentially possible from a squad that might cost less, 10 vanguard vets with power weapons (and lets just say jetpacks) is around the 500 mark, so something less extreme could be cheaper and pretty painful... units with plasma, like 4 plasma command squads are also a concern..

Admittedly these are rather specific and you'd have to try and get other units to prevent them from messing up your terminators, but I think thats something i'd worry about!

Are there any other major threats to the 10 terminator squad?
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#15
Mysticaria

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Scariest to me would be a plasma command squad, especially with Null Zone active. If they are in a rhino they might have enough mobility to keep you from getting a cover save, and then you are looking at about 5 dead terminators with one good rapid fire.

Vindicators are somewhat scary, but not too bad if you spread out with the large bases they can't hit more than 2 guys at a time.

Vanguard Vets might be scary with heroic intervention... but does anyone even do that?

Banshees are only scary if they assault. Problem is that they are somewhat easy to play around due to not having an open-topped transport. Fleet helps, but it's not that hard to keep away or blow up the transport and then shoot the contents. Storm bolters love T3 targets.

Hormogaunts might be scary if they have the upgrades for re-rolling hits and wounds. That's going to force a lot of 3+ saves.

Tarpit-wise... I think actually the best would be DE witches. They have 4++ in close combat, their T3 means that powerfists are largely wasted, and they have enough mobility to be able to the termies fairly easily.

You are correct. Terminator player should identify these threats and play accordingly.

-Myst


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#16
DarkGuard

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Can you only hit two Terminators spread out with a Vindicator? That's a big blast, I'd expect at least three, even if you are spread out. Of course, the chances are that on a board, especially if it's congested, that your Terminators will be less than 2" apart, and therefore liable to being hit square on by the big blast. In fact, a good player would seek to use terrain and the units onto the board to his advantage, forcing them to box up.

I'm not too sure how scary Honour Guard would be in practise. Even at full strength I wouldn't want to charge at a 10 man Terminator squad unless I have Null Zone, if I don't have it I think that's only around 7 kills. The invulnerable on the Terminators, no matter how bad it may seem to be, beats the non-existent invulnerable save o the Honour Guard, and they're stronger. If a couple of Terminators survive you can expect that Honour Guard unit cut in half. LC/SS Command squads, and Hammernators of course, would be the scarier one, for damage output and the 3++ save.
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#17
Brother Valerius

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Can you only hit two Terminators spread out with a Vindicator? That's a big blast, I'd expect at least three, even if you are spread out. Of course, the chances are that on a board, especially if it's congested, that your Terminators will be less than 2" apart, and therefore liable to being hit square on by the big blast. In fact, a good player would seek to use terrain and the units onto the board to his advantage, forcing them to box up.


Google sez that 40mm is 1.5", which means that in the most spread-out scenario (a conga line), you wouldn't be able to hit 3 of them if they're 2" apart. That said, in practice you're basically always going to hit more than two unless you scatter badly.
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#18
MagicMan

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But then, everything dies to big blast templates of doom.

Except things with 3++


Its not really a weakness.



I played 5 Terminatos with a Cyclone against an IG army last weekend. He had 2000 pts vs my 1000 (Home-brewed scenario) and had two of those 5 Plasma template tanks. Surely the Termies should have been murdered? Not so.

They did very well, knocking out a Colossus, a Chimera, and slapping the weapons off a Valkyrie/one of the tanks before getting taken down to one man by a 5-man GK Terminator Squad (I let him take them for fun) and slapping them silly.


The last guy ended up getting mobbed by 20 guardsmen. But anyway, the one Cyclone did well, and the Termies in cover were pretty resilient. They also ate face in CC with a superior enemy, they just didn't do so without heavy losses. And my dice rolls weren't outrageous.

I like them.

Edited by MagicMan, 10 May 2011 - 07:31 PM.

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#19
Shadowstalker Grim

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I'm not too sure how scary Honour Guard would be in practise. Even at full strength I wouldn't want to charge at a 10 man Terminator squad unless I have Null Zone, if I don't have it I think that's only around 7 kills


Well a unit of 10 un-upgraded honour guard weighs in at something like 360 points, which is a good 110 less than the terminator squad they're attacking, as they have auto-power weapons they'll simply have the 5+ to contend with. Admittedly, thats going to shrug off a fair bit of what they can do! But if they managed to cause 7 kills in that 10 terminator strong unit, thats effectively obliterated 1/3 and the major keystone to your army in 1500 point battles.

My point here isn't that 'HG are better than terminators' because they're not, as we all well know, terminators do a lot more and HG are naturally CC orientated. But I'm just pointing out how lethal a large power weapon unit could be and it need not cos the same as this big unit. In a way we need this large unit to pick its battles to make sure we maximise that 1/3 of the army! Its something I could see myself getting paranoid about, as you can't point and click with a unit like this as much as other units.

I really like the sound of 10 terminators and I think that they could easily smash a LOT aside! :)
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#20
DarkGuard

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@ Brother Valerius: that was where I went wrong, I wasn't imagining a conga line, but rather a checkerboard pattern, or square etc. Thanks for clearing that up.

@ Grim: I know you weren't making any claim to the fact that the Honour Guard are better than Terminators. As we both know all too well they are very, very different. Of course, I just presumed a 5 man squad, I mean who uses 10 man squads ^_^. Anyway, as you've said massed power weapons would be particularly nasty towards them, 10 men on the charge should be 10 relic blade attacks and 45 power weapon attacks. However, the points isn't quite right, as chances are they'll be 1-3 relic blades, a Chapter Banner, but more than anything a 125pts Master. The Terminators don't need a HQ, but can take a standard Libby, while the Master will likely be upgraded, so I imagine the points would even themselves out enough so that the difference isn't significant.

And now you've got me wanting to take 10 man Honour Guard squads in an LRC in big points games :lol:.
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#21
Shadowstalker Grim

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Funnily enough, the moment that i suggested 10 man honour guard squad it got me really wanting to take one....i mean....it sounds so devilishly painful!

It adds up to around 400 points (lets say 575 for the upgraded master too)...which is a very large chunk of army! Course if you took a libby in the mix too using GOI they could become terminator equivelent nasties with a ton of attacks, I probably wouldnt take the libby for the steep point cost, but I'd really like to run such a squad now! I will note however that this sounds similar to a squad of assault terminators with LCs....


Still. It sounds a lot of fun! :D

In larger games i'd team up said HG with the 10 terminator squad for a world of pain....MSUs? Meet my twin thunder hammers of doom!
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#22
Mysticaria

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Can you only hit two Terminators spread out with a Vindicator? That's a big blast, I'd expect at least three, even if you are spread out. Of course, the chances are that on a board, especially if it's congested, that your Terminators will be less than 2" apart, and therefore liable to being hit square on by the big blast. In fact, a good player would seek to use terrain and the units onto the board to his advantage, forcing them to box up.


Google sez that 40mm is 1.5", which means that in the most spread-out scenario (a conga line), you wouldn't be able to hit 3 of them if they're 2" apart. That said, in practice you're basically always going to hit more than two unless you scatter badly.

Yeah, the large blast is 2.5" radius and the terminator model is .75" radius. So if a large blast is centered on a terminator, it will extend only 1.75" on each side. I know most people don't space their guys more than 1.75" when they are casually gaming, but in a tournament with vindicators present it really isn't that hard to to for a turn or two until you deal with the threat. In fact if you do this... the only way to even hit 2 models with a large blast is to place it on the edge of one of the models and hope for a good scatter. Then, if the terminator player knows there is a vindicator or two, they should have some cover either through rhinos, buildings, etc.. so you are looking at 4++ save. Assuming that the vindicator rolls a hit, and gets the 2+ to wound, and you make average saves, they should only kill 1x terminator. This is theoryhammer, but in practice I have to say that it usually comes out to 1-2 dead. It's usually 1, and never more than 2. Only exception here is if they catch you on the turn after a close combat and you rolled low for consolidation. Be careful assaulting things if you know there are vindicators around. And... as addressed in the article, anti vindicator stuff is good to pair with terminators for this reason.

-Myst


Tournament Results 2010-2011: W-L-D format
Ultramarines: 5-3-3 *2x Best Paint Winner*
Orks: 2-0-1 *1x First Place*

#23
nurglephill

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Awesome post many many thanks ;)
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#24
Hellios

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I dunno when I play Eldar I love it when people bring high value low model count units...

I'm not saying terminators are crap (I play Deathwing) but I wouldn't say they are the most competitive units. If used well they can provide good results. However terminators often don't add much to a list and in some ways it depends on your list and what you play against... some units are more reliable all round. I guess the issue is... if someone takes out your 200pt tac squad... big deal... If someone takes out your huge terminator squad + raider + Lysander combo... you might be in trouble.
Also gotta love flame templates that ignore your armour save :P

#25
Mysticaria

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I dunno when I play Eldar I love it when people bring high value low model count units...

I'm not saying terminators are crap (I play Deathwing) but I wouldn't say they are the most competitive units. If used well they can provide good results. However terminators often don't add much to a list and in some ways it depends on your list and what you play against... some units are more reliable all round. I guess the issue is... if someone takes out your 200pt tac squad... big deal... If someone takes out your huge terminator squad + raider + Lysander combo... you might be in trouble.
Also gotta love flame templates that ignore your armour save :D

What AP2 flame template are we talking about? Terminators are on large based and operate at range so flame templates are not usually a big threat. If you take a large squad of terminators, you don't have to take the raider. And, with Lysander, the unit is not too easy to take out. If they have enough to do that, chances are they could already have destroyed all your scoring troops anyway. The torrent fire argument is made a lot but the fact is when you operate at range with a very resilient unit with good armor save, they just aren't that vulnerable.

-Myst


Tournament Results 2010-2011: W-L-D format
Ultramarines: 5-3-3 *2x Best Paint Winner*
Orks: 2-0-1 *1x First Place*