Tactica: Tactical Terminators

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The only AP1/2 flame template I can think of is Wind of Chaos, but Myst made a good point about how these guys normally function at ranges beyond an eight inch template.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The only AP1/2 flame template I can think of is Wind of Chaos, but Myst made a good point about how these guys normally function at ranges beyond an eight inch template.

 

The Deldar have a spray that is apD6, so a third of the time it will mess up ap2. Which makes me feel bad for Sang Guard and Honour Guard....

[Hellios]

I dunno when I play Eldar I love it when people bring high value low model count units...

 

I'm not saying terminators are crap (I play Deathwing) but I wouldn't say they are the most competitive units. If used well they can provide good results. However terminators often don't add much to a list and in some ways it depends on your list and what you play against... some units are more reliable all round. I guess the issue is... if someone takes out your 200pt tac squad... big deal... If someone takes out your huge terminator squad + raider + Lysander combo... you might be in trouble.

Also gotta love flame templates that ignore your armour save :)

What AP2 flame template are we talking about? Terminators are on large based and operate at range so flame templates are not usually a big threat. If you take a large squad of terminators, you don't have to take the raider. And, with Lysander, the unit is not too easy to take out. If they have enough to do that, chances are they could already have destroyed all your scoring troops anyway. The torrent fire argument is made a lot but the fact is when you operate at range with a very resilient unit with good armor save, they just aren't that vulnerable.

 

-Myst

 

Guess what... things can move towards the terminators! Also terminators are really expensive if you are just going to use them for stormbolters! Oh and you are right... if someone puts 700pts into one unit I can kill them all.

[Mysticaria]

I dunno when I play Eldar I love it when people bring high value low model count units...

 

I'm not saying terminators are crap (I play Deathwing) but I wouldn't say they are the most competitive units. If used well they can provide good results. However terminators often don't add much to a list and in some ways it depends on your list and what you play against... some units are more reliable all round. I guess the issue is... if someone takes out your 200pt tac squad... big deal... If someone takes out your huge terminator squad + raider + Lysander combo... you might be in trouble.

Also gotta love flame templates that ignore your armour save ;)

What AP2 flame template are we talking about? Terminators are on large based and operate at range so flame templates are not usually a big threat. If you take a large squad of terminators, you don't have to take the raider. And, with Lysander, the unit is not too easy to take out. If they have enough to do that, chances are they could already have destroyed all your scoring troops anyway. The torrent fire argument is made a lot but the fact is when you operate at range with a very resilient unit with good armor save, they just aren't that vulnerable.

 

-Myst

 

Guess what... things can move towards the terminators! Also terminators are really expensive if you are just going to use them for stormbolters! Oh and you are right... if someone puts 700pts into one unit I can kill them all.

Fairly vague response. Would you care to add some details that I could respond to?

 

Obviously movement is a big part of the game, as was addressed in the article. If someone is playing a large unit of terminators they need to use their movement and indeed the movement of the rest of the army to support the overall game plan. AND... I don't believe I ever recommended using Tactical Terminators for their storm bolters. I recommended taking advantage of their excellent special weapons. Coming back with a vague response that ignores everything that what was recommended in the article makes it somewhat difficult to address. If you could be more specific I would love to think about the tactical implications and give some thoughts on a terminator player's possible response game plan. I actually addressed that point in the article as well, how terminators have multiple ways to win and multiple ways to build the army, and talked about how this flexibility makes the game more fun since each battle is different.

 

-Myst

[nurglephill]

The only flamer I can think of is the one on the Raider, but I think that is AP3 not 2.

 

 

The trouble I have with Terminators is How fast they die to mass fire or power weapons. While I try to avoid both I often fail and die horribly. Although at this point I should say I mostly use the chaos dex and so don't have all the options open to marine termies sadly.

 

But, and this is kinda relevant here, as a death guard/plague marine player (with FNP they are similar to termies) I had great fun firing and falling back, especially through cover. Falling back through cover means you are very likely to get another round of shooting in if your oppo doesn't roll high enough to reach your line. I do this with a PM squad of 7 with 2 plasma guns and nothing else (champs etc) and they have always earnt back more than they cost me.

 

Would you consider this a good use of the tactical terminator squad or because you are paying for all those power fists etc is it a waste? In cover they become almost as hard as hamminators with storm shields and I would add that being in cover they are harder to draw a good line of site to in the first place and if you can't see them you can't shoot them.

 

I guess what I am asking is would you consider using a ten man squad with two CML's and no CC upgrades in cover as a fire support base? VERY difficult to remove and can pump out a lot of rounds a turn. When you add the CC threat they do pose your oppo is going to think twice about what units he sends near them so you can predict what he will and wont do in the area covered by this unit too.

 

Anyway, what do you think sir?

[LardO'Blood]

The only flamer I can think of is the one on the Raider, but I think that is AP3 not 2.

 

 

The trouble I have with Terminators is How fast they die to mass fire or power weapons. While I try to avoid both I often fail and die horribly. Although at this point I should say I mostly use the chaos dex and so don't have all the options open to marine termies sadly.

 

But, and this is kinda relevant here, as a death guard/plague marine player (with FNP they are similar to termies) I had great fun firing and falling back, especially through cover. Falling back through cover means you are very likely to get another round of shooting in if your oppo doesn't roll high enough to reach your line. I do this with a PM squad of 7 with 2 plasma guns and nothing else (champs etc) and they have always earnt back more than they cost me.

 

Would you consider this a good use of the tactical terminator squad or because you are paying for all those power fists etc is it a waste? In cover they become almost as hard as hamminators with storm shields and I would add that being in cover they are harder to draw a good line of site to in the first place and if you can't see them you can't shoot them.

 

I guess what I am asking is would you consider using a ten man squad with two CML's and no CC upgrades in cover as a fire support base? VERY difficult to remove and can pump out a lot of rounds a turn. When you add the CC threat they do pose your oppo is going to think twice about what units he sends near them so you can predict what he will and wont do in the area covered by this unit too.

 

Anyway, what do you think sir?

My 2 cents, use combat squads in this situation. You can have a 5 man squad with two CML stay back while the sergeant leads 4 guys with a chainfist to distract fire from the CML and perform normal terminator duties. Just be more than aware of any outflankers or highly mobile units that can stop the CML from firing for more than a turn. On average a CML will probably have firing opportunities 4 or 5 times a game, don't lose 2 or more to close combat. However I dislike operating terminators this way and have only done it a few times, and only against horde orks with no reserves because CC with a full squad would be suicide.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So in the Ard Boyz practice games this past week, I ran Lysander and ten Tac Termies with two chainfists and two CMLs in a game against a Thousand Son-heavy Chaos player.

 

I'm not going to throw up a full battle report, but they did good by me. They soaked up four turns of firepower from a dreadnought and four obliterators before going down in combat with some of the oblits and, with judicial application of Bolter Drill and my Libby's Null Zone, accounted for two full squads of T-Sons, two of the oblits, and two Rhinos. While its not a full return on the points investment, they did divert an awful lot of attention away from the rest of my army; the only thing he had that consistantly fired at something other than the Termies was a Defiler (which missed most of the time).

 

Overall, I enjoyed using the unit and it will be a centerpiece for my Ard Boyz list.

[DarkGuard]

Sounds like a good game for them. Yeah they didn't make their points back, but two Thousand Sons squad is probably the centre of your opponent's army. Two Rhinos made him slower, and two Oblits is impressive when you factor in the fact that they get an armour save against krak missiles. So all in all in a good game I'd say.

 

I've said it again and again, I'd love to use a 10 man cyclone squad, but it just doesn't fit into my fluff :rolleyes:.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well, its not exactly fluffy for my Iron Hands either -- after all, full squads of Terminators "are rare." But when it comes to tournaments, all bets are off! ;)

[thade]

...Yeah they didn't make their points back...

Not to pick on you directly, but...

 

How do we gauge whether or not they "made their points back"? If you use only their kill-count as a measure, then they didn't make it. If you consider how much fire power they soaked and how many of your other units were able to endure (i.e. they prevented you from losing points) and help to hold/contest objectives as well as kill things themselves, I'd say they were definitely worth their points. Sounds like they were, as they're going to be his centerpiece. ;)

 

Don't get me wrong: DG isn't asserting a unit needs to kill as many points as it costs to be valuable here. Some of us do think that way from time to time though; I think it's important to keep in mind that there are many other factors to consider. ;)

 

EDIT: More smilies and winkies were required.

[DarkGuard]

...Yeah they didn't make their points back...

Are you sure? How do we gauge whether or not they "made their points back"? If you use only their kill-count as a measure, then they didn't make it. If you consider how much fire power they soaked and how many of your other units were able to endure (i.e. they prevented you from losing points) and help to hold/contest objectives as well as kill things themselves, I'd say they were definitely worth their points. Sounds like they were, as they're going to be his centerpiece. ;)

 

thade, I respect you, but if you'd read the rest of my post you'd have realised I wasn't criticising them for not making their points back. I have never, ever supported "get your points back" as a central tenet of army inclusion and never will. It is false and doesn't accurately reflect the work that a unit does in the game.

[thade]

thade, I respect you, but if you'd read the rest of my post you'd have realised I wasn't criticising them for not making their points back. I have never, ever supported "get your points back" as a central tenet of army inclusion and never will. It is false and doesn't accurately reflect the work that a unit does in the game.

Sorry, man; no disrespect meant. I didn't mean to pick on you directly. Just auto-crusading (a bit blindly) against math-hammer. I didn't mean to suggest that you were critiquing based upon that metric. Sorry: I can see how I could be construed that way there. Fixing it...

[DarkGuard]

thade, I respect you, but if you'd read the rest of my post you'd have realised I wasn't criticising them for not making their points back. I have never, ever supported "get your points back" as a central tenet of army inclusion and never will. It is false and doesn't accurately reflect the work that a unit does in the game.

Sorry, man; no disrespect meant. I didn't mean to pick on you directly. Just auto-crusading (a bit blindly) against math-hammer. I didn't mean to suggest that you were critiquing based upon that metric. :cuss Sorry: I can see how I could be construed that way there. Fixing it...

 

No worries mate, I shouldn't have reacted that badly as well, sorry about that. I also think your edited post is very good. Often, expensive units do little things, while inexpensive units do big things. Two multi-melta attack bikes may take out a Land Raider, but then that Land Raider may have soaked up loads of firepower and it's now in a good position where it's contents can rip apart scoring units. It's all situational, and it's good to know I'm not alone in disliking "get your points back" :yes:.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I must confess, I still don't get Tactical Terminators. I admit I have not used them, but my theory-hammer just isn't happening with them.

 

Remember that Templar Dakkanators have re-rolls to hit in combat, two CMLs per 5 man squad, and tank-hunters, putting the bolters to a useful s5 and the kraks to s9. So with all that extra killiness over a C:SM version, I still don't get them.

 

Are they supposed to stay within your 12" of your table-edge, to avoid small arms fire?

One Termie dies as easily as two Marines to bolters, yet costs some 135% more. My Marines do die to small arms fire quite happily, which is part of the Mech'ing up qualities.

But what to do with the Termies? Hold them back so they don't get torrented off by small arms?

 

If the opponent is bringing ap1-2 weapons, does that mean that they 'must' stay in cover to get the 4++ save happening?

 

For a similar price to 5 Termies plus 2 CML, I can get two AutoLas Preds, which are much easier to use. Two batches of 3 heavy weapons compared to one batch of, effectively, 4 heavy weapons. The Preds have no reason to move forwards in the first place, and even if they did, small arms do nothing to them.

 

I would like to use this cool new unit [new for Templars due to the FAQ updating the CML] but it just seems awkward to me....

Help!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

It's all situational, and it's good to know I'm not alone in disliking "get your points back" :D.

 

"getting your points back" and "mathhammer" are not the be all & end all of sizing up what are good units in 40K.

However, they do give a reasonable guide for what you can get out of the unit, providing the dice are reasonable.

 

I do feel, however, that there is a considerable backlash to it from a few of you guys, due to its overuse and/or misuse by others, that you actually dismiss two decent tools in aiding your army selection.

 

Saying mathhammer doesn't work because the dice don't roll according to mathhammer is ignorance/naivety, wilful or otherwise. If taking dice into account doesn't matter one jot, then we don't need to think about army composition at all, because 'I could.... kill that LR with my ML anyway."

You wouldn't hear people saying such silly things, yet by saying mathhammer doesn't count, and people should use feng shui or feel it in there bones, you are basically implying such a silly thing.

 

Why am I being perhaps too confrontational in pointing this out?

Because there are a few of you doing it, and in the one forum. When n00bs come along, they are basically getting propaganda against two reasonably valid tools, all because you guys are backlashing against something you don't like [subjective] rather than providing a less biased response.

 

Imagine being taught by a rock-scissors-paper teacher, who discounts using paper because it has bad environmental effects [or some other personal reason that isn't entirely relevant to not using paper]....

We'd all have a good chuckle about it.

 

Just the other day, someone on B&C wrote that 'mathhammer is a blight on the game'. What a load of hysterical nonsense. Yet people are handing out that view :)

 

In light of that, and people somewhat zealously pooh-poohing Hammernators [because they find it boring, which ≠ a good reason for someone else not to take them] on another thread, and then "auto-crusading against mathhammer" by personal admission, makes me think people are perhaps as interested in converting others to "not play via meta" as giving out good advice.

 

Is that really what seekers need? To get loaded up with things that some of us dislike?

 

Maybe I have missed the mark, and maybe I have hit it.

But I just thought to mention it. We wouldn't want to tell someone to take a poor unit just because they had cool fluff, and similarly, if people are after effective units and effective measures of units, we shouldn't be getting distracted by subjective things getting in the way of good advice.

 

Hopefully what I have written has come across well :)

 

+++

 

I do realise the value of units that are not killy. Kroot and Piranhas rarely kill their points back, but provide more than that in stalling the opponent.

[Mysticaria]

@Marshall Wilhelm: I think you need to take the unit in consideration... not the individual model. The fact that one terminator dies as easily as one marine has little to do with the fact that the other guy needs to kill 4 terminators before he starts taking missiles. The fact that you can put together a squad that puts out 4x missiles and has 3 ablative wounds that get 2+/5++ or assuming cover a 4++... means that they are going to put out a lot of firepower with a lot of resiliency. Meanwhile, those predators can be shut down or stunned with minimal fuss. Not to mention the terminators can move and fire, and also have some close combat efficiency.

 

I don't know if they are your best option though. Even though it sounds like a great unit, you may need something different in your army. In C:SM I've been underwhelmed by units of 5 termies, and that might be the case here. They won't last against tough units in close combat... and you'll essentially be forced to use them as moving devastators. Still... with 4 missiles this sounds good, but not going to play it the same way as you would with a unit of 10.

 

Regarding Mathhammer... this game has a set of rules that is based on a random number generator... that 6-sided die. Everything in the game is designed to operate on percentages. The game designers consider how many points something costs, and whether the game would be fun, and decide if something gets a 3+ armor save versus a 4+ armor save, if something hits on 3+, etc.... Ignoring the mathematical chances of those different results to come up is discounting a tool. However, relying on those mathematical chances to show up every dice roll, or even every game, that's not certain. People can get upset when they go a while without being on average and get disgruntled. However, over time, approaching infiniti, the random numbers will aproach average, and when that is the case then mathammer can be useful.

 

-Myst

[Iron Father Ferrum]

When I am doing army construction, I discount mathhammering entirely. I'd rather build a force that is fluffy, reasonably effective at first glance, and that I am know how to use properly than rely on my somewhat sub-par mathematical skills.

 

That being said, when making tactical decisions, I will fall back on mathhammering something to break a mental tie in the decision making process. For example, should I shoot four krak missiles or two lascannons at that Predator? There are more missiles and thus a higher percentage of probable hits, but the lascannons, with their higher strength, have a better chance of penetrating the armor -- which one to go with?

 

But, getting back to the topic at hand, Marshal Wilhelm, I can understand your stand of mind when discussing Tac Termies. The BT Codex does Terminators overall better than C:SM thanks to veteran skills, and Furious Charging lightning claw Termies is a frightening proposition for a Space Marine player. So I'll lay out the benefits they give me, personally:

 

1.) Subjective -- Fluffy. Iron Hands replace their left hands with cybernetics upon induction to the Chapter. Upgrading that to a giant cybernetic hand able to crush the life out of a daemon prince. . . well, there's the visual element to consider in addition to the whole "purge the weak" routine.

 

2.) Objective -- Survivable in numbers. What makes your standard five man squad of Terminators from C:SM -- especially Tacs as compared to Assaults -- is that they are easy to overcome via torrent of fire or its assault equivalent. Five models die fast when they are being swamped in armor saves, even if that save is a 2+. Now, double the number of models in the unit as I have, and unless you're packing immense amounts of plasma or a Vindicator or two, they become harder to kill off and you've got more bodies to throw out before the enemy starts getting to the important stuff like CMLs. Add in an storm shielded Eternal Warrior like Lysander, and you've got somewhere else to sink AP2 wounds before you start losing joes.

 

3.) Objective -- Firepower. Assault Terminators are great -- if you're assaulting. I built my army as a shooting force after discovering that C:SM doesn't do assaults very well. Assault Marines aren't worth their points, Vanguard are too expensive to outfit the way I'd like, and Honor Guard are only I4 without an Invulnerable save and thus get eaten by ICs and MCs. So rather than work with the one or two units that are reasonable in assaults, it only makes sense to me that focus on utilizing those units that are exceedingly capable at range. Tactical Terminators provide excellent mid-range firepower, even at a minimum squad size -- ten bolter shots, double what you get from an equal number of Tactical Marines -- plus the long-range firepower of two missile shots. Double the squad size doubles the firepower, and adding Lysander's Bolter Drill provides an ancillary boost as well. I wiped out an entire squad of Thousand Sons in one turn of shooting from this unit -- something on the order of twelve bolter wounds and three krak missile wounds. Color me impressed. If I had your Tac Termies -- namely, five guys with two CMLs and Tank Hunter, I'd be as happy as a pig in fecal matter.

[Derrios]

Just to be devil's advocate Myst. They key phrase you used for math hammer is "approaching infinity". This is where I've always had issues with purely

mathermatical arguments. (I have an electrical engineering degree and I played poker for 5 years. I have some background) In poker you can argue

variance, but for that variance to kick in you need X amount of hands (approaching infinity). I played a feel based game with mathematical backdrop.

I play WH the same way. Blend of both works well for me :D

 

PS

Im working on a unit of 10 of these for my DIY chapter w/ some friends.

[Mysticaria]

Just to be devil's advocate Myst. They key phrase you used for math hammer is "approaching infinity". This is where I've always had issues with purely

mathermatical arguments. (I have an electrical engineering degree and I played poker for 5 years. I have some background) In poker you can argue

variance, but for that variance to kick in you need X amount of hands (approaching infinity). I played a feel based game with mathematical backdrop.

I play WH the same way. Blend of both works well for me <_<

 

PS

Im working on a unit of 10 of these for my DIY chapter w/ some friends.

I think you've got it right. Math can help you determine what the most likely outcome will be. You still have to play the game, make the choices, etc...

 

-Myst

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Right, so, I took fourth out of twelve in my Ard Boyz Round One (Second Place can't go to Round Two, so I'm going instead, wheee!), and my mass of Terminators did well for me, and I played a game last night against an armor-heavy BA army with the same list. I'm not going to give full batreps, but I'll give you all a quick look at what Lysander and ten Tac Termies did in all four games:

 

Ard Boyz Round One: vs Tau

 

I'll open with a disclaimer: the two Tau players at my LGS only play their Tau at tournaments, because otherwise no one would play them. We're talking massed Broadsides and Crisis teams with plenty of Pathfinders for markerlighting stuff and eliminating cover saves, raising BS, etc. I've never won a game against them. Anyway, the Tac Termies did excellent work against his objective-holding Fire Warrior squads and the cover-hugging Pathfinders thanks to judicious use of Bolter Drill and frag missiles. I marched the squad straight up into his gunline hoping enough would survive to get into them and do some clobbering while his Broadsides were too busy putting holes in my tanks. . . in retrospect, I probably should have foregone shooting and instead run the first couple of turns to get up quicker. At the end of the day, the whole squad was put down due to massed pulse rifle fire and plasma off of a suit team. I'll admit that due to previous experience I went into this one expecting to be tabled (almost happened), so I probably wasn't at my best.

 

Lesson: When faced with an opponent with superior mobility and superior firepower, don't try to match the firepower -- just punch him in the face.

 

 

Ard Boyz Round Two: vs Deathwing

 

This one was against a fairly new player, so I didn't go into the game with much in the way of apprehension. He dispersed his deep strikers too much, though, which allowed me to concentrate fire quite easily and eliminate his squads one by one without much in the way of fuss. Lysander and friends took out one termie squad through shooting, put the hurt on a Ravenwing bike squad, shot up a five man Dev squad, and killed two more termie squads in assault. He was heavy on lightning claws which gave me pause, but I rolled like an ace on my invulnerable saves. The game ended with Lysander with six surviving Termies in combat with his last two Termies. Not quite enough to table him, but it did earn me a Massacre.

 

Lesson: Infantry as a whole is more mobile than one might otherwise assume. The Terminators ran a giant L-shape across the table and eventually moved through/into three different table quarters in the span of six turns. Its already something I know, but just to reiterate: massed bolter fire will kill 5-man Termie squads in a single round of shooting. There was one shooting phase where due to Bolter Drill, I scored a 100% hit rating with the stormbolters and wounded with something twelve or fifteen of them, and then stacked another dozen or so wounds on top of that with the liberal application of frag missiles form the CMLs. 2+ is a good, but its not that good.

 

 

 

Ard Boyz Round Three: vs Grey Knights

 

I went into this one determined for a victory, and here's why. The guy I played this round is someone I had literally never beaten before. I drew him the previous night -- we were both using the same lists we ran for the tourney -- so I wanted a kill so bad I could taste it. Thanks to the Termies, I got what I wanted. With the CMLs and Bolter Drill, I outshot a ten man squad of GK Termies, and massed power fists got through his Invulnerables to kill the rest. The CMLs took out a pair of Rhinos carrying Purifiers, which then exposed them to the same punishment as well as a little what-for from my TFC. I charged one much-reduced squad and pulped them with the power fists, which was satisfying. This big squad also soaked a TON of firepower from the rest of his army; he was too busy trying to pry them off of his flank to launch an effective strike against my line (he tried with jumping Dreadknights, but my massed plasma batteries put paid to that idea!). In the end, he was able to get a charge off with his last squad of Purifiers (he had, I think, three, with two full Termie squads backing them up) that overwhelmed my ability to roll 5s and 6s. Two rounds of combat was enough to kill off the squad -- there was maybe five or six of them left at that point -- at which time it came down to Lysander punking the rest of the Purifier squad and then him and Crowe launching into a MAD scenario. I won the game, having killed every single unit in his army except for his Inquisitor (which was his General); the disparity in VPs was just shy of a Massacre, so I settled for a Major Victory.

 

Lesson: This was actually the first time my Big Block had encountered a full-strength squad of all-power weapon-wielders, and I will admit that for a moment, my faith wavered and I wished for storm shields. As we've all known for a while, this is the squad's most glaring weakness, and the Purifier charge put paid to any hope of the Termies surviving the game. Despite their annihilation, however, they did damage out of all proportion to their points and accounted for the better part of ten Terminators and twenty Purifiers.

 

 

Friday Game (19 AUG): vs Lamenters Razorspam

 

I went into this one with mixed feelings. On the one hand, I had been, uh, "spitting mad smack" about this game all week and was confident of victory. On the other hand, this was going to be the first time I had played against Blood Angels period since the new 'dex came out (I was in Iraq until March, you see) and against this much armor period. He had three Predators, three Baal Preds, and the rest was filled with Razorback-borne assault squads supported by a Libby, a Chappy, an Honor Guard squad, and three Sang Priests. So, counting fear of the unknown, mixed feelings. Turns out, I should have had more faith. We rolled five objectives in a Pitched Battle, and I made him scream uncle at the top of Turn Five. I had killed almost his entire army -- a bystander said it looked like someone had bombed a taxi parking lot -- and in return, he had killed two Termies, three command squad veterans, and a Razorback. The Termies once again took the lead in kill-count, accounting for one Predator and one Razorback with CMLs before chainfisting several other tanks. There was one point in which the squad was surrounded by armor on three sides and charged by assault marines on the fourth. They powerfisted the Marines, who wisely ran away, and then I pulled a multi-charge that allowed me to put fist-to-armor on one Predator, one Baal Predator, and two Razorback in a single assault phase. Suffice to say, there were lots of explosions that turn. Of the five games I've run this squad in, this was the only game where I never fired their stormbolters; they were too busy killing tanks instead of infantry.

 

Lesson: Chainfists are the best five point investment in the vanilla Marine codex. I'm historically bad with armor penetration rolls, so that extra die helped several times despite a target AV of 10. CMLs are also awesome investments; in all my previous games, they'd been rolling mostly frags to clean out infantry, but in this game, they put two penetrating hits against AV13 on Turn One and blew a Predator sky-high, and ripped guns and tracks off of other tanks throughout the rest of the game. Overall, a thrilling performance.

 

 

So. I gushed a bit, but if anyone has any questions about the games or my employment of my Tactical Terminators, I'd be happy to field them.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Ard Boyz Round One: vs Tau

 

I'll open with a disclaimer: the two Tau players at my LGS only play their Tau at tournaments, because otherwise no one would play them. We're talking massed Broadsides and Crisis teams with plenty of Pathfinders for markerlighting stuff and eliminating cover saves, raising BS, etc. I've never won a game against them. Anyway, the Tac Termies did excellent work against his objective-holding Fire Warrior squads and the cover-hugging Pathfinders thanks to judicious use of Bolter Drill and frag missiles. I marched the squad straight up into his gunline hoping enough would survive to get into them and do some clobbering while his Broadsides were too busy putting holes in my tanks. . . in retrospect, I probably should have foregone shooting and instead run the first couple of turns to get up quicker. At the end of the day, the whole squad was put down due to massed pulse rifle fire and plasma off of a suit team. I'll admit that due to previous experience I went into this one expecting to be tabled (almost happened), so I probably wasn't at my best.

 

Lesson: When faced with an opponent with superior mobility and superior firepower, don't try to match the firepower -- just punch him in the face.

 

Lesson: Chainfists are the best five point investment in the vanilla Marine codex. I'm historically bad with armor penetration rolls, so that extra die helped several times despite a target AV of 10. CMLs are also awesome investments; in all my previous games, they'd been rolling mostly frags to clean out infantry, but in this game, they put two penetrating hits against AV13 on Turn One and blew a Predator sky-high, and ripped guns and tracks off of other tanks throughout the rest of the game. Overall, a thrilling performance.

 

Do you think Infantry can get close to Tau....?

Honest question, not trying to be cheeky. I think you would be very lucky to get into the important part of the Tau, to be honest.

 

I agree on the Chainfist. 2d6 makes it into a MELTA for pen. rolls, whereas the power fist is a more humble krak missile ;)

 

Did Lysander smudge any baddies?

 

+++

 

Also, outside of the often useful Librarian and Lysander, are there any other ICs that jell well with Tactical Termies, and if so, why?

[DarkGuard]

Also, outside of the often useful Librarian and Lysander, are there any other ICs that jell well with Tactical Termies, and if so, why?

 

Someone mentioned Pedro once, who is useful in making them better in combat with extra attacks. Not necessarily needed though IMO.

 

The other one that has been discussed is Calgar, preferably in Terminator armour. AP2 storm bolters with re-rolls to wound mesh nicely with mass storm bolter fire, while his God of War ability is a nice rule not only for the Terminators but for the entire army as well. Plus 4 wounds and 4 attacks base with 2 power fists and Eternal Warrior with re-rolls to wound and he's a nasty character. Plus he has that power sword if you need him to strike first and clear out some enemies before your Termies swing.

[MagicMan]

Cassius is a pretty nice choice.

 

 

He adds FNP, some initiative hits with a power weapon, his flamer for horde killing, the normal chaplain re-rolls and he's a pretty tough bastard.

Plus cheap at only 25 Points more than a normal chaplain.

 

 

He's also pretty good for putting Terminator killing shots on, since hes T6 and has a 4+ invulnerable. He also makes your Termies fearless, which is pretty good because extra wounds for losing combat that you get a 2+ save against is much better than getting run down.

 

The bad side is that you can't teleport him in with the Terminators, but i rarely do that with Tacticals anyway, since you want the cyclone missiles slapping things in the face from the get-go.

 

 

If he could take a jump-pack he'd probably be my favourite HQ in the codex...

[Laughingdagger]

Cassius is a pretty nice choice.

 

 

He adds FNP, some initiative hits with a power weapon, his flamer for horde killing, the normal chaplain re-rolls and he's a pretty tough bastard.

Plus cheap at only 25 Points more than a normal chaplain.

 

 

He's also pretty good for putting Terminator killing shots on, since hes T6 and has a 4+ invulnerable. He also makes your Termies fearless, which is pretty good because extra wounds for losing combat that you get a 2+ save against is much better than getting run down.

 

The bad side is that you can't teleport him in with the Terminators, but i rarely do that with Tacticals anyway, since you want the cyclone missiles slapping things in the face from the get-go.

 

 

If he could take a jump-pack he'd probably be my favourite HQ in the codex...

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I didn't think his personal FNP was granted to joined squads? Apothecaries don't have the special rule but their wargear grants it to the squad am I right? Wow, that would be broken if his fnp was squad wide.

[ShinyRhino]

Cassius does not grant FNP to his squad.

 

I've taken to running a 10-man Tac Termie squad of late, and brought one to Ard Boyz this year. I ran two chainfists, two assault cannons, led by Cassius.

 

Against Chaos Daemons, it obliterated all the small daemons (Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Horrors, etc) in a 24" radius. The poor saves of Daemon troopers combined with the wall of fire that comes out of a 10-man squad (16 stormbolter, 8 assault cannon shots!) meant I was rarely threatened by grunts.

However, the one unit that really gave me pause was Flamers. All those templates that wound on a 4+ and allow only 5++ saves mean dead Tac Termies. Without a Land Raider to hide in, you have to be extremely careful about your deployment and positioning.

 

Against Mechanized Space Wolves, it soaked up half an army's shooting every turn. Bolter fire fell like rain on my squad, and I only lost a few here and there. Even the charge of massed Grey Hunters couldn't crack the 2+ armor saves I was getting, and the few attacks withpower weapons or Rending had to hit on 4+ and then wound on 4+ to force saves.

 

The squad crumbled against Blood Angels, though. A poor deployment decision on my part left them open to a Turn Two assault from a Death Company squad led by Lemartes (all power weapons, and noone fields DC without Lemartes) AND a DC Dread with Blood Talons both of which popped out of a Storm Raven. If I'd parked the Terminators in the center ofmy force, I'd have had terrain to slow down the incoming assault units. The BA Raven did make a fistful of cover saves that kept it in the sky long enough to deliver the DC units.

 

Overall, I feel the 10-man squad is well worth the points in the double-assault cannon format. Heavy flamers are going to require additional backup, because 10 men won't fit in a Land Raider, and smaller units won't be able to apply as much firepower. I suppose you could take the 10-man with two heavy flamers, plus the Land Raider, and combat squad the dual-flamer section to be able to drive closer and apply torches to bad guys. Double-CML is a no-brainer. Long Fangs suffer from low body count, and drop off fast. Typhoons can be reliably taken down with S6 shooting. Double-CML requires the enemy to take out 8 TDA bodies before you lose a single missile shot. Of course, you do waste a boatload of stormbolter shots every turn doing that...