Perrin Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Many people may not be happy with this topic but it almost got another topic locked so I thought it would be best to start a new one. Reasons for Loken being a psyker Extreme stress after Istvaan caused him to almost lose his mind, more than enough to awake latent powers, Possible founder of the GK, the 8 marines brought before the Emp were all said to possess the needed "powers", or something like that, Dan Abnett created Loken so really he can do what he wants with him, meaning that if DA thinks that Loken being a psyker would be good then it will happen, Wouldnt have to be strong psyker powers or anything, he could be very basic level and jst be empathic or something along those lines Reasons agaisnt Loken being a psyker He wasnt a psyker in any of the books he has been in so far and hasnt shown any potential Marines are tested at an early age, but other marines and humans have shown that the testing isnt flawless ... I'm sort of in the middle, I don't believe Loken is a psyker yet but it is the most interesting idea ive heard for a while. And before anyone says its stupid and no author would ever write that etc etc Look at the GK omnibus. Mr Abnett is probably a better story writer than Matt Ward and is definetly in the top 3 BL authors, arguably the top writer, but its not so crazy an idea that he would never think of it writing it. He has already split Alpharius into two and turned his Legion into maybe loyal maybe not, and turned the SW into fake barbarians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Yup, except why even bring it up? If there is no evidence so far to support it. There is more evidence to say what happened to the lost primarchs or that the Blood Ravens are a TS loyal ofshoot than this. Bring it up as an idea that you may have and how that would make for interesting stories... not as a theory about the reality. We might as well start a topic that claims that White Scars were all much smaller than other Space Marines or whatnot.... we have no evidence, yes, perhaps there is some justifiable reason for all of this, but why bring it up as a theory? It is just going to stir up trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don the Oiler Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I'm much more curious which writer takes on the task of bestowing psychic powers upon the GK World Eater (whatever his name was). Could as well admit a Carnifex to the Grey Knights and try it with one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Yep. I'm just sitting back and watching this topic. I've gotten involved in this topic enough times before, but I really have to second the statements of Gunslinger87. There is no evidence whatsoever for Loken being a fighter, other than "well, he was stressed, and stress makes latent psykers bloom!" I would think that if he were latent, the stress of Istvaan would have made him bloom already, given how much stress he was under then. Oh, but I forgot the "he could read Lucius when he fought him!" argument, an argument that therefore proves that any good martial artist is also psychic. Hell, any fighter who knows anything about being able to react to an opponent is psychic! He watched Lucius fight, saw his style, and used the best style for taking that one down. Lucius is a swordsman, so don't duel him, brawl with him. It doesn't take a genius to work out that he won't be ready for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 You have no idea how much I want to type "Oh my, no." right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 You have no idea how much I want to type "Oh my, no." right now. *sigh* I'll get the tea and monocle ready... Secondly, regarding the thread title, what spoilers are there? You haven't mentioned anything in the books, other than "well, it's possible Loken could be a psyker!" That isn't a spoiler. It's merely a statement of a possibility. An incredibly unlikely possibility with no evidence behind it whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Sounds implausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I'm much more curious which writer takes on the task of bestowing psychic powers upon the GK World Eater (whatever his name was). Could as well admit a Carnifex to the Grey Knights and try it with one of those. I'm not saying it but i'm thinking it. To answer the opening post though; even if Loken was insane he probably would have been able to use his powers while on Istvaan to fight Garro's lot and the plague zombies. He probably would have been making enough "noise" for Rubio to psychically hear over the ghosts of the dead as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Question: Extreme stress after Istvaan caused him to almost lose his mind, more than enough to awake latent powers,Possible founder of the GK, the 8 marines brought before the Emp were all said to possess the needed "powers", or something like that, Dan Abnett created Loken so really he can do what he wants with him, meaning that if DA thinks that Loken being a psyker would be good then it will happen, Wouldnt have to be strong psyker powers or anything, he could be very basic level and jst be empathic or something along those lines Answer: He wasnt a psyker in any of the books he has been in so far and hasnt shown any potential I'm gonna be honest here, I think this is a case of 40k fluff mingling with the past. "Needed Powers" does not exclusively mean Psychic powers, else a bunch of Thousand Sons would be filling the ranks. I think the 40k "all Grey Knights have psychic potential" thing should be discounted here; there are no Grey Knights yet, just a band of astartes doing covert ops. And who is to say the misinformation and distorting effects of time haven't changed the role of Grey Knights immeasurably since the Heresy? I think this would be very unlikely. One could suggest that Loken's unbreakable spirit may be the "power" mentioned; after all, he reacted in a similar way to Alaric in the Grey Knights series..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retributis Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I think that people are getting too hung up on the "8 marines that founded the GK" business... Yes this may turn out to be Garro and his crew but at this point in time we don't know. Only 1 out of the 4 named marines featured in the audiobooks is even a librarian so I don't see why Loken has to manifest powers and the other two don't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 You have no idea how much I want to type "Oh my, no." right now. *sigh* I'll get the tea and monocle ready... Oh my, no! http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii324/facmanpob/tea.jpg There, I did it for you! :D On topic, is there a need for Loken to be a psyker?....not that I can think of....so why would any author bother making him one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 No Loken is'nt a psyker From the other thread this topic nearly took over, it has the collected visions quote refering to 12 marines selected by Malcador, 4 who knelt before the Emperor first are referred to as 4 who are known to him and former marines from traitor legions. Loken is most likely one of these first 4, as no doubt the Emperor would've known of the closest marines who accompanied/advised each of the primarchs therefore as part of the Mournival, Loken fits this category, whereas the other 8 will be mainly librarians who had been re-inducted to normal ranks following the Nikea edict, in the same way as the Ultramarine Rubio, Garro recruits had been, hence the comment referring to suppressing their abilities and then how useful/necessary their experience, knowledge and success against daemons will be in the coming future This also leads me to thinking that the remaining 8 will be loyalist legion members as, they would also have had their allegiance reaffirmed to the Emperor like the other 4 mentioned plus the fact one is an Ultramarine who was fighting Word Bearers on Calth would've had experience against Chaotic elements therefore plausible to think that there will be a Space Wolf following Prospero, Blood Angel due to Signus Prime, Raven Guard and Salamanders after Isstivan (?, no sources to hand) etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 We don't even know that the 8 founding members are even psykers to begin with nor would they need to psykers. Perhaps they were merely selected because of their extreme loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium. The Emperor probably expected them to bestow that loyalty, courge, honor, etc onto the psyker recruits waiting on Titan and forge them into the weapon the Imperium needed most to protect the future from daemons and chaos. I don't believe Loken was a psyker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I don't think Loken is a psyker. If you search this forum you can find a few discussion titled "Loken Alive?" etc where we've discussed it to death (We got locked, it was going a bit circular) But really you can always say "It's up to the author" and it is. The BL team can always pull a sneaky one and write something to try and explain it, but it would just fell wrong to me. I mean I kind of like Loken being dead. And I can't see where him returning with glowing eyes would really add anything and not stink a bit of laziness/indecisiveness. I'd probably still enjoy the books, but it would take some of the shine off it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 Well, i just thought it was an interesting thing to discuss, surely that is the whole point of a forum? For people to talk about things that interest them. There is no proof that Loken is a psyker, that is correct, but why does that stop people from talking about it? There have been a few topics about the Lost Legions, and they never get shot down due to lack of proof. I didnt know i needed proof of something to talk about it :rolleyes: If you arent interested in something... then dont open the thread? Thats pretty simple. I honestly thought that this topic would bring about some interesting debate based on the amount that was written about it in the Best Marine topic, but obviously i was wrong. If there are any mods reading this can you lock/delete this thread please? I'm not sure if I can do it myself and theres not really any point in keeping it open sadly. EDIT: This mini-rant is directed mostly at Gunslinger and Lord Caerolion, and to a smaller extent ADB, not to the other people who contributed to this thread with posts about what i had wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 I get snippy about this topic because it's already been debated to death in other threads regarding Loken surviving, and the fact that this is how internet "facts" get created. It starts off as "so guys, what if Loken's a psyker?", which progresses to "I heard Loken was a psyker" "yeah, I remember reading that too! Therefore, that makes it truth.", and finally "Loken's definitely a psyker! ...What? Someone had it that he isn't one in their book? Don't they know anything? Obviously, it's just that book that's wrong." You started this thread in the style of a debate, except that only the negative side had any points, with the positive only having "yeah but... it's possible!" Discussing the Lost Legions is possible because we know they existed, and we have been given snippets of information to work with. The psychic abilities of Loken, on the other hand, are nothing more than rampant speculation. There is nothing to discuss about it. The only thing that can be said for the affirmitive is "it'd be cool". Even A D-B, an author with knowledge of what is planned for the series, has discounted the theory. By all means, you can continue the "discussion", but you have just as much backing as saying the Tyranids are one of the Lost Legions. After all, we know the Lost Legions existed, and GW can do whatever they want with their IP, so it's just as valid a theory as Loken being a psyker. As it stands, there cannot be a discussion, because there is nothing to discuss, unless you just want rampant wishing and speculation. All evidence in every book gives no hints to him being a psyker. A D-B has even said that being selected by Garro doesn't necessarily mean being one of the first Grey Knights, and discounts him being a Librarian in this very thread. People can want him to be a psyker all they want, but wishing does not make it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 EDIT: This mini-rant is directed mostly at Gunslinger and Lord Caerolion, and to a smaller extent ADB, not to the other people who contributed to this thread with posts about what i had wrote. I'm trying to save you time, dude, through the medium of unsubtle hinting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Geez, burn the idea already before it catches alight on the forums. It goes in with the 'Grey Knights come from a mixed/traitor geneseed' theory as being another totally unfounded fallacy. Garro & Co. are just the mentors to the first generation of Grey Knights, if at all. Because they were able to identify and resist corruption they made the prefect candidates in providing experienced tutoring to this new chapter. Those chosen to complete Malcador's task never needed to be 'through-and-through Grey Knights' with psychic powers or similar geneseed material, they just needed to be knowledgeable, incorruptible and awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 :cuss, no. No no no no no no. My theory is that Loken is really a giraffe. There's nothing in the text that says it couldn't be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Look, to stop the general insanity and theories which are like this; could we just forget the fifth edition Grey Knights codex exists? It would be better for the fluff in every way possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Geez, burn the idea already before it catches alight on the forums. It goes in with the 'Grey Knights come from a mixed/traitor geneseed' theory as being another totally unfounded fallacy. Garro & Co. are just the mentors to the first generation of Grey Knights, if at all. Because they were able to identify and resist corruption they made the prefect candidates in providing experienced tutoring to this new chapter. Those chosen to complete Malcador's task never needed to be 'through-and-through Grey Knights' with psychic powers or similar geneseed material, they just needed to be knowledgeable, incorruptible and awesome. I think that Oiad has summed up my position fairly well. The theory that Loken may have been a psyker is derived from one thing - the notion that Garviel Loken was one of the eight founding members of the Grey Knights and must, therefore, be a psyker. I tend to agree that he was probably one of the (so far un-named) original eight, but that doesn't mean that he was a psyker. People tend to focus on the Grey Knights as psykers and forget about their more important attribute - their resistance to the corrupting influence of the Warp. Going back in Grey Knights history, in fact, their resistance to the Warp has been the only defining element of the Chapter in all of their incarnations. Back during the Rogue Trader era when the Grey Knights army list was published in Realm of Chaos, only a handful of Grey Knights were psykers - but all Grey Knights were resistant to the Warp. When none of the published material even hints at the possibility of Loken being a psyker, any attempts to argue for the possibility are untenable. I'm much more curious which writer takes on the task of bestowing psychic powers upon the GK World Eater (whatever his name was). Could as well admit a Carnifex to the Grey Knights and try it with one of those. Ignoring the debate about whether or not the original eight Grey Knights were psykers (see above ;) ), it must be remembered that the World Eaters as we know them are based around their loyalty to Khorne, who rejects psykers and sorcery. The pre-Heresy World Eaters may easily have had psykers within its ranks. The Legion may not have cultivated them as Librarians, and would probably have had far fewer psykers than most other Legions, but it's entirely conceivable that there were both latent and active psykers within the ranks. I'm not suggesting that Varren actually was a psyker, either active or latent, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of World Eaters Space Marines being psykers so flippantly. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 I would imagine that a close combat specialist would be quite keen on Hammerhand, Might of Titan, Quicksilver etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Geez, burn the idea already before it catches alight on the forums. It goes in with the 'Grey Knights come from a mixed/traitor geneseed' theory as being another totally unfounded fallacy. Garro & Co. are just the mentors to the first generation of Grey Knights, if at all. Because they were able to identify and resist corruption they made the prefect candidates in providing experienced tutoring to this new chapter. Those chosen to complete Malcador's task never needed to be 'through-and-through Grey Knights' with psychic powers or similar geneseed material, they just needed to be knowledgeable, incorruptible and awesome. I think that Oiad has summed up my position fairly well. The theory that Loken may have been a psyker is derived from one thing - the notion that Garviel Loken was one of the eight founding members of the Grey Knights and must, therefore, be a psyker. I tend to agree that he was probably one of the (so far un-named) original eight, but that doesn't mean that he was a psyker. People tend to focus on the Grey Knights as psykers and forget about their more important attribute - their resistance to the corrupting influence of the Warp. Going back in Grey Knights history, in fact, their resistance to the Warp has been the only defining element of the Chapter in all of their incarnations. Back during the Rogue Trader era when the Grey Knights army list was published in Realm of Chaos, only a handful of Grey Knights were psykers - but all Grey Knights were resistant to the Warp. When none of the published material even hints at the possibility of Loken being a psyker, any attempts to argue for the possibility are untenable. Well, A D-B has also stated that we shouldn't confuse being recruited by Garro with being one of the founding Grey Knights. I'm very much in the position of "he was a mentor to them, but not a 'true' Grey Knight". Ignoring the debate about whether or not the original eight Grey Knights were psykers (see above ;) ), it must be remembered that the World Eaters as we know them are based around their loyalty to Khorne, who rejects psykers and sorcery. The pre-Heresy World Eaters may easily have had psykers within its ranks. The Legion may not have cultivated them as Librarians, and would probably have had far fewer psykers than most other Legions, but it's entirely conceivable that there were both latent and active psykers within the ranks. I'm not suggesting that Varren actually was a psyker, either active or latent, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of World Eaters Space Marines being psykers so flippantly. ;) Well, part of their background explicitly mentions they had them, as they hunted them down when they turned to the worship of Khorne at the start of the Heresy. You can't kill something that doesn't exist, so therefore the World Eaters had psykers. Remember, we shouldn't confuse the beliefs of the Legion Cults with the beliefs of the original Legion. The Emperors Children weren't always degenerate sense-overloading aesthetes, just like the World Eaters didn't always hate psykers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broker Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 :cuss, no. No no no no no no. My theory is that Loken is really a giraffe. There's nothing in the text that says it couldn't be true. The way he's a naysmith in the Mournival indicates that he has a fairly long neck. Just like a giraffe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 24, 2011 Author Share Posted June 24, 2011 I was going on what someone wrote about the Collected Visions book that Malacdor says the the Emperor "'Sire, these others are known to you. Each of them is a Space Marine . They have cast aside their allegiance to Primarch and Legion who have sided with Horus and pledged themselves anew to you, their Emperor and father. I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching loyalty they each are blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous command. However these skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know they will be needed in the coming years'" Now, if Loken is one of the 8 (not saying he is) then he is "blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous command". But ofc, Loken may not be one of the 8, i havent read Collected Visions, this could be made up or taken out of context, or maybe the CV are more of an added thing and shouldnt be seen as mainstream canon. PS Ive calmed down after my rant in the last message i posted in this topic, and feel i should apologiase to the people my rant was aimed at, espiecally ADB because he was jst trying to save me from pursueing this topic <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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