105 replies to this topic

[Madcap]

And, why are we still arguing about this?

Because that is precisely what the Alpha Legion wants. Disinformation = Chaos! Chalk up another one for Alpharius.

I think when it comes to information on the AL and the fate of Alpharius, even the most canonical source will be met with skepticism. As it should be.

FOR THE EMPEROR!

[Menkeroth]

Good said! AL is AL, it's so secret and mysterious legion that only Alpharius/Omegon knows what they are

[Deus Ex Ferrum]

In regards to the whole "Did they believe the Cabal? If not, why did they turn?" issue, this is how I think of it.

Their rejection of the Emperor's utopian ideal and the implication behind the commentary from Pech about "managing and maintaining the flaws of man on an on-going basis" tells me that the Legion has a somewhat Darwinian attitude about humanity. When the Cabal tells them that a civil war is coming, they decide to test the theory and, if true, want to be on the rebel side for one reason -- to manage and maintain the flaws of man of an on-going basis. The Alphas didn't turn for the glory of Chaos or to see Horus win; they turned because it put them in a position to prey upon the Imperium and, through their attacks on it, teach the Imperium where its shortfalls are. After all, you learn more from losing than you do from winning, yes? The Alphas may be trying to help the Imperium by cutting away those pieces of it that they see as being too weak, too corrupted, or too ineffective to be of any real use to mankind as a whole.

As for why they killed Namatjira and his entire expedition. . . well, when they went to Horus as fellow rebels, they would have needed a tribute, so thing they could point to and say, "Check it out, we're on your side." Nothing says "rebel" like annihilating an enemy army from within its own ranks, not to mention the fact that Namatjira was mentioned earlier on in the book about being an extremely important commander within the Imperial Army and a one-time-councillor of the Emperor. Getting rid of a high-ranking general like that in and of itself would have been seen as a good thing by Horus.

Edited by Deus Ex Ferrum, 22 August 2011 - 12:49 PM.

[Saa]

In regards to the whole "Did they believe the Cabal? If not, why did they turn?" issue, this is how I think of it.

Their rejection of the Emperor's utopian ideal and the implication behind the commentary from Pech about "managing and maintaining the flaws of man on an on-going basis" tells me that the Legion has a somewhat Darwinian attitude about humanity. When the Cabal tells them that a civil war is coming, they decide to test the theory and, if true, want to be on the rebel side for one reason -- to manage and maintain the flaws of man of an on-going basis. The Alphas didn't turn for the glory of Chaos or to see Horus win; they turned because it put them in a position to prey upon the Imperium and, through their attacks on it, teach the Imperium where its shortfalls are. After all, you learn more from losing than you do from winning, yes? The Alphas may be trying to help the Imperium by cutting away those pieces of it that they see as being too weak, too corrupted, or too ineffective to be of any real use to mankind as a whole.

Hmmm, I can't decide if you're a genius or a sadist.....or a subtle blend

[Yogi]

In regards to the whole "Did they believe the Cabal? If not, why did they turn?" issue, this is how I think of it.

Their rejection of the Emperor's utopian ideal and the implication behind the commentary from Pech about "managing and maintaining the flaws of man on an on-going basis" tells me that the Legion has a somewhat Darwinian attitude about humanity. When the Cabal tells them that a civil war is coming, they decide to test the theory and, if true, want to be on the rebel side for one reason -- to manage and maintain the flaws of man of an on-going basis. The Alphas didn't turn for the glory of Chaos or to see Horus win; they turned because it put them in a position to prey upon the Imperium and, through their attacks on it, teach the Imperium where its shortfalls are. After all, you learn more from losing than you do from winning, yes? The Alphas may be trying to help the Imperium by cutting away those pieces of it that they see as being too weak, too corrupted, or too ineffective to be of any real use to mankind as a whole.

As for why they killed Namatjira and his entire expedition. . . well, when they went to Horus as fellow rebels, they would have needed a tribute, so thing they could point to and say, "Check it out, we're on your side." Nothing says "rebel" like annihilating an enemy army from within its own ranks, not to mention the fact that Namatjira was mentioned earlier on in the book about being an extremely important commander within the Imperial Army and a one-time-councillor of the Emperor. Getting rid of a high-ranking general like that in and of itself would have been seen as a good thing by Horus.

This makes sense, I like it. Similar to the Istvaan radical inquisitor faction. This thread was real enlightening.

Edited by Yogi, 23 August 2011 - 10:24 AM.

[Excessus]

I just keep fantasizing about the moment Horus officially declared himself going against the big E, and I keep imagining an Alpha Legionnaire that comes out of the shadows just after his proclamation and says: "we're in" to him...

They had prior knowledge after all, plenty of time to make plans and setup things...

Edited by Excessus, 23 August 2011 - 01:10 PM.

[alphariusomegon20]

oh were around, you just have to know where to look

Agreed, We're around if you know where to look.

[RapatoR]

Alpharius has been killed. An inqusitor said it.

And Alpha Legion has been wiped out. Lords of Terra said it. At least three times.

How you can bee so sure? Its Alpha Legion. Only right answer to any question concerning AL is: Who knows?

Edit: Spelling

Edited by RapatoR, 24 August 2011 - 11:22 PM.

[Telanicus]

In fact, not only did they know about the Horus Heresy happening, they planned it! They are so good at what they do, they made it look like the Word Bearers planned it, but really it was all an elaborate ploy

[Saa]

In fact, not only did they know about the Horus Heresy happening, they planned it! They are so good at what they do, they made it look like the Word Bearers planned it, but really it was all an elaborate ploy

*cough* Lorgar would like a word with you......

[Menkeroth]

So is the story of the Heresy the first chaotician in the ranks of the Space Marines was Phosis T'Kar, but the Heretic - Kor Phaeron and then Lorgar. And so on. But yes, Alpha is so Alpha...

[Saa]

the first chaotician in the ranks of the Space Marines was Phosis T'Kar

What's your source on that little piece of heresy against my beloved Erebus?

Saa

[Menkeroth]

Erebus was the third chaotician in the Legion and the forth - if with Phosis Tzeentch is always first! And only He is the only true answer!

[Prot]

Interesting conversation.

On the allegiance of the Legion:

I am split on the loyalties of Alpha Legion. I think that's the way Dan Abnett planned it. But on the gaming side, I was very hot and ready to go full Alpha Legion. I bought Forgeworld pieces, shoulder pads, Forgeworld Dreadnoughts... you name it.

Then I read Legion, scratched my head, and wondered what is my motivation now? Are they good? Are they bad?

Notice I didn't ask 'Are they Chaos?' I really don't think they are dedicated to Chaos. Just a hunch. I do believe they would leverage the dark powers for the pure purpose of warfare advantages, and that's it.

I saw the final scene in the book as a very difficult truth for the Alpha Legion.

[Menkeroth]

In WH as in our world there's no bad or good. No. There're only rival factions fighting each other for their own reasons.

What's about AL - in the Heresy they could turn traitor in order to help but now they're fully chaoticians (and do remember that Chaos neendn't to be worshipped). For example read the "Hunt for Voldorius".

Now they certainly fight for Chaos.

[Clewz]

In WH as in our world there's no bad or good. No. There're only rival factions fighting each other for their own reasons.

What's about AL - in the Heresy they could turn traitor in order to help but now they're fully chaoticians (and do remember that Chaos neendn't to be worshipped). For example read the "Hunt for Voldorius".

Now they certainly fight for Chaos.

I think most of us like to forget that book was ever written

[Yogi]

@menkeroth. There is no single answer of what modern day Alpha legionaries are, as all legions are fractured into warbands.

[Lay]

@menkeroth. There is no single answer of what modern day Alpha legionaries are, as all legions are fractured into warbands.

Pursuing a single goal despite being split into independent warbands was pretty much the core definition of the post-Heresy AL in 2nd and 3rd edition.

[Legatus]

I am split on the loyalties of Alpha Legion. I think that's the way Dan Abnett planned it. But on the gaming side, I was very hot and ready to go full Alpha Legion. I bought Forgeworld pieces, shoulder pads, Forgeworld Dreadnoughts... you name it.

Then I read Legion, scratched my head, and wondered what is my motivation now? Are they good? Are they bad?

The allegiance of the Alpha Legion in the 41st millennium is not really in question. They have been featured in four Chaos Codices for a reason. They promote Chaos cults throughout the Imperium, and have been the antagonists in a few video games. The Alpha Legion are Chaos Marines through and through, even if like the Night Lords or the Iron Warriors they pursue their own goals instead of worshiping the dark gods directly.
Edit: What the HH novels changed was how they got to turn to the dark side, and perhaps make some peple wonder if they really were intending to betray the Emperor and mankind. But the novels do not mean that the Alpha Legion spreading chaos cults and raiding human worlds suddenly has some kind of noble motive.

In WH as in our world there's no bad or good. No. There're only rival factions fighting each other for their own reasons.

I think if you are in league with dark space gods of death who thrive on causing as much suffering and terror to living beings as possible, then you qualify as "bad".

Edited by Legatus, 25 August 2011 - 09:32 PM.

[Ageis]

The allegiance of the Alpha Legion in the 41st millennium is not really in question. They have been featured in four Chaos Codices for a reason. They promote Chaos cults throughout the Imperium, and have been the antagonists in a few video games. The Alpha Legion are Chaos Marines through and through, even if like the Night Lords or the Iron Warriors they pursue their own goals instead of worshiping the dark gods directly.
Edit: What the HH novels changed was how they got to turn to the dark side, and perhaps make some peple wonder if they really were intending to betray the Emperor and mankind. But the novels do not mean that the Alpha Legion spreading chaos cults and raiding human worlds suddenly has some kind of noble motive.

see now i have to disagree there.

the HH has made the loyaltys of the AL so unclear that you just cant say for sure why they do what they do. i think its fine if somones says "my AL are dirty nasty chaos marines who want to destroy the imperium" and equally as plausable if someone says " my alpha legion are working to bing down chaos from the inside"

personally my alphas are playing both sides of the fence, keeping the universe in a constant state of war so that nieher of the cabals visions comes to pass.

now you show me in any official fluff where it says for sure that is not the case.

[Saa]

I think if you are in league with dark space gods of death *snip*

lol Dark space gods of death. I'm so stealing that for my LFGS

Saa

[Legatus]

personally my alphas are playing both sides of the fence, keeping the universe in a constant state of war so that nieher of the cabals visions comes to pass.

now you show me in any official fluff where it says for sure that is not the case.

Their motive as described in various Chaos Codices seems pretty straight forward.

"Even after the Heresy failed the Alpha Legion continued to fight a covert war against the Imperium. Small units of Alpha Warriors set up hidden bases in asteroid fields, space hulks and barren systems scattered throughout the galaxy while the bulk of the Legion withdrew to the Eye of Terror. Raiding parties sally out from these secret bases to catch the defenders of humanity unaware - sabotaging bases, attacking shipping, terrorising settlements and destroying small outposts with deadly efficiency.
Far more insidious and dangerous are their connections with Chaos Cultists on the settled worlds of the Imperium. The Alpha Legion coordinates and directs the activities of Cultists across entire sectors to instigate massive insurrections against Imperial Rule. These revolts are often used as a cover for a series of shattering Chaos Space Marine raids or as a percursor to a full scale invasion from the Eye of Terror. The Inquisition holds a special loathing for the Alpha Legion for their part in spreading these iniquitous daemon cults and fanning the embers of heresy into the raging fires of outright rebellion."
2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 15

"it is thought that the majority of the Legion did not flee into the Eye of Terror with the other rebels and instead remained within the Imperium. Numerous secret bases were already in existence, and the Legion fragmented in order to hide itself in the midst of its enemies. Small forces kept up frequent attacks on military targets, especially those weakened by the carnage of the Heres, and became a major problem for those trying to rebuild the shattered Imperium. (...)
It is known that the Legion recruits, supplies, and organizes hundreds of cultist cells on Imperial worlds. These groups are not all crazed devotees of the Chaos Gods and insane Daemon-worshipers (although there are plenty of those)."
3rd Edition Index Astartes Alpha Legion

The Inquisition holds a special loathing for the Chaos Space Marines of the Alpha Legion for their part in spreading these iniquitous daemon cults and fanning the embers of heresy into raging fires of bloody rebellion.
After the Horus Heresy ended, the Alpha Legion continued to fight the Imperium by the most covert means. Small units of Alpha Legion warriors set up hidden bases in asteroid fields, space hulks and barrem systems throughout the galaxy, each an autonomous warband. Raiding parties still sally forth from these secret bases to catch the defenders of Mankind unawares - sabotaging outposts, attacking ships, terrorising settlements and destroying garrisons with deadly efficiency.
From these hiding places, the Alpha Legion warbands coordinate and direct the activities of magisters and covens from one end of teh galaxy to the other, instigating massive insurrections and subverting governments to tehir cause. These revolts are usually nothing more than diversions and shields for the Alpha Legion's other activities, misdirecting the forces of the Emperor, leading them away from the Imperial worlds the Alpha Legion wants to attack.
4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 20

If there is one thing known about the Alpha Legion, then it is that they have been fighting against the Imperium and spreading Chaos cults all over the galaxy for the past ten thousand years. Also, there is a distinct lack of background describing how the Alpha Legion attacks other Chaos forces (other than partaking in the typical rivalries between Legions and Warbands).

[Prot]

The allegiance of the Alpha Legion in the 41st millennium is not really in question. They have been featured in four Chaos Codices for a reason. They promote Chaos cults throughout the Imperium, and have been the antagonists in a few video games.
Edit: What the HH novels changed was how they got to turn to the dark side, and perhaps make some peple wonder if they really were intending to betray the Emperor and mankind. But the novels do not mean that the Alpha Legion spreading chaos cults and raiding human worlds suddenly has some kind of noble motive.

It IS in question. I question it... therefore, it is in question.

Seriously though... in all honesty they are changing the history as we speak. To make claims based on anything previous to the Horus novels would be an error in my opinion, unless you choose to ignore the modernized version of the story.

You also mention a point that cannot be ignored.

The Alpha Legion are Chaos Marines through and through, even if like the Night Lords or the Iron Warriors they pursue their own goals instead of worshiping the dark gods directly.

The allegiance isn't quite what I'm questioning as much as "are they Chaos?" Of the Legions you just mentioned, I -sort- of feel the same way about Iron Warriors which I played for over 10 years, and read anything I could get my Obliteratin', lovin' hands on.

Alpha Legion, even in old school terms never really hung out with their Brothers in the Warp. They choose to stay out of the purple eye of goofiness. There's also evidence in pre-heresy (Legion) that they always DID use local resources, and assets, and certain 'talents' that were considered.... non-standard. What's to say that the incredibly resourceful Alpha Legion are not simply leveraging an easy to use resource in 'cultists' and the like to serve their needs?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Alpha Legion are 'good'. There is also hints that the legion becomes divided. How far do they go with chaos? Where and when does this split occur? I could not prove Alpha to be PURE Chaos any easier than I could prove them to be PURE Imperium. In fact, I will say I am open to the idea that there is an _in between_ . Or an area they decided to reside in that uses the 'features' of Chaos, but isn't really on the side of chaos. However, they could be serving their own agenda with no real 'side'.

So this is why I stumbled on the army. Can I use daemons? Would they be real Alpha? Are they truly using gifts of Chaos? It's too bad they aren't properly represented anymore, because in 3.5, Alpha Legion was FUN! And full of flavour. Now you have to go through the motions, and make the rest up. I didn't really care for that.

[Menkeroth]

I think if you are in league with dark space gods of death who thrive on causing as much suffering and terror to living beings as possible, then you qualify as "bad".

That's not the truth. Dark Gods want only to have more followers as they're their source of power. No adepts = no power and force, and than they can't influence the materium. They were created by mortals and so can't survive without them. Codex: Daemons tells us about the Dark Gods.
In WH there's no good or bad as all kill and destroy every and everything.

And what's about AL - Legatus is right, i agree with him. Codexes're more important than books and in them AL is described as Chaos Legion.

[DuskRaider]

The one thing I think people need to completely forget is the DoW games and books. Those books & games are so far out of left field fluff wise it's sickening. I'd also say that you cannot ignore the BL books, they're canon, whether you like it or not. I wouldn't call Alpha Legion dead on Chaos worshippers (maybe some warbands, like The Faithless), but they are known to start civil unrest and uprising on Imperial planets.