Codex: Star Shields

[chaplain belisarius]

that sounds interesting! you should playtest that idea and tell us how it goes! :cuss

 

I3 all round would definitely hinder your chapters assault ability-which is what you want anyway, right?

[thade]

haha whooooa nonono, holy crap. From slight buff to ZOMGBUFF. :cuss We want to weaken them in melee...not make their power fists FASTER than everybody else's.

 

Keep the S8 or better melee attacks at I1, for sure. How about this for a guide line: for each +1 to S, -1 to I. Cap the S increases at 6 for Captain stat line, and 5 for Vet stat line. I do think that initiative nerfs are a reasonable balance for increased strength...it's the whole reason PFs strike last, effectively. :cuss

[chaplain belisarius]

good point thade! stick with I3, S5...

[SnakeoilSage]

haha whooooa nonono, holy crap. From slight buff to ZOMGBUFF. :blink: We want to weaken them in melee...not make their power fists FASTER than everybody else's.

 

Keep the S8 or better melee attacks at I1, for sure. How about this for a guide line: for each +1 to S, -1 to I. Cap the S increases at 6 for Captain stat line, and 5 for Vet stat line. I do think that initiative nerfs are a reasonable balance for increased strength...it's the whole reason PFs strike last, effectively. :P

 

*Chuckle* Alright, how about this?

 

All units get +1 Strength (max 6) in the first round of assault. Regular units and Elites have S4 I4 like regular Space Marines, but all HQ units get S5 and Initiative 3 as their bodies have essentially become brick walls with legs.

 

I can put more restrictions on Assault units (Maybe a straight 0-3 limit on Fast Attack forces, and if you want Vanguard you need at least one other unit of Fast Attack; basically saying if you want Assault Terminators, you need to fill up to other Fast Attack Slots.) That could also balance out the Devastator Squads being Troop Choices.

 

Maybe I can take it a step further and introduce a signature CC weapon for the Chapter, a two-handed type of chainsword that grants Rending, but gives a -1 WS, -1 Initiative penalty, so even the standard Assault units will have a limited Initiative and fewer Attacks (since they can't benefit from having a second weapon). The weapon can have rules so that models with a base Strength of 5 don't lose Initiative (since they already have the penalty as standard).

[rpnightsend]

I'd say raise everything's strength by one, and lower everyone's initiative by one. so captains would be I4, regular marines I3. etc.

Also, does the fire and fury rule allow you to fire rapid fire weaponry as if you didnt move? I think it should

[SnakeoilSage]

I'd say raise everything's strength by one, and lower everyone's initiative by one. so captains would be I4, regular marines I3. etc.

Also, does the fire and fury rule allow you to fire rapid fire weaponry as if you didnt move? I think it should

 

I do like that idea, though S5 regular Marines? I guess if they're not a melee-strong army that could make some sense.

[rpnightsend]

I'd say its mor balanced than rending, and the lower initiative is a bigger punch in the gut than most people would thing.

And you didn't answer my question about the fire and fury rule.

[SnakeoilSage]

Yes, Focus and Fury applies to Rapid Fire weapons too. I'll make the correction on that.

[chaplain belisarius]

id definitely leave it as S5, I3-its nice and simple that way! (you dont need rending-its not an assault army, after all!)

 

hope this helped...i feel that rending would be a bit too much...

[thade]

Provided those two handed chainswords also prevent them from getting an offhand attack from their pistols (which they can have for pre-charge shooting otherwise) then I think that's not such a bad idea. I'd drop Rending, it's too good for basic assault troops. Give it to, like, the Vanguard Vet sergeant (on top of the Vet stat line S5 I3 thing) and nobody else. So...

 

Assault Troops S4 I4 2H Chainsword for +1S -1I and 1 Attack (2 on the charge)

Assault Serg as Vanguard Vet

Vanguard Troops the same as assault, but they get the bonus attack from Vet stat line...so 2 Attacks (3 on the charge)

Vanguard Serg S4 I4 +1S -2I, Rending with special sword. 2 Attacks (3 on the charge). You can up him to Power Fist (S8 I1) for like 15 points.

 

Different, slightly better in some ways, obvious weaknesses. Makes the most sense to me as otherwise your chapter can move and fire heavy weapons, allowing them to shot the CRAP out of anybody before they get close enough for assault.

 

On the other hand ,if you did want entire units of Vanguard or even Assault marines to Rend, I'd say ditch this idea, do a custom World Eaters 'dex, and drop all weapons that exceed 12" of range. Like, except for storm bolters on Rhinos. Really.

[chaplain belisarius]

but wouldnt making them fight in melee differently take away the focus on them being a heavy firepower oriented chapter? i reckon you should leave rending alone-unless you want them to be an assault army?

 

Just my thoughts on the matter...no offence intended :)

[thade]

Having the Vanguard Vet Rend with a 2H chainsword instead of his usual Power Sword (ignores armor, single-handed for offhand bonus) is a trade-off in favor of the normal VV, in my opinion. I think it's a change for the better. The only better change I can think of beyond that would be to drop Vanguard as an option entirely and focus on Sternguard (unmodified, perhaps BA-pricing scheme given their ability to move, fire heavies, and still have vet stat lines).

[chaplain belisarius]

now that you mention that-they should only be allowed to run sternguard (further cementing the fact that they are shooty and lack assault specialists)

 

good idea? (im enjoying flinging ideas back and forth, arent you thade?)

[thade]

I can see merit to that as well, but I can see the desire for a Vanguard unit choice for the sake of list diversity within the codex, you could drop them and have your command team HQ choice fit that roll.

 

So long as he doesn't have I2 Power Fists and the entire Vanguard Rend, I think we're doing better than before. :)

 

(I haven't left yet!)

[chaplain belisarius]

maybe lower things like assault termies and vanguard to 0-1? not sure about hammernators-they kind of fit the theme in my mind?

 

Good idea?

[thade]

Hammernators? I dunno. Um...

 

S5 (doubled to S10) is SCARY...that's five guys doing S10 on the charge. They'll vaporize things that will make even normal Hammernators pause. It's broken and needs to be addressed. Options...

 

Drop Hammernators entirely; in fact, drop Assault Terminators entirely. Normal Terminators come with power swords and are not allowed to take power fists or chain fists. In trade, they can take two CMLs per five and additionally two per five may select one of the following: storm shield, assault cannon, heavy flamer. Again...this army has lance weapons. It doesn't need anything in melee that can open up a Land Raider. I'd actually allow Terminators to take those 2H Rending Chainswords (that the Vanguard Vet Serg gets) and also get Storm Bolters or heavy weapon upgrades. So how about they can choose freely to swap 2H Rending Chainsword (S5 I3 with the modified vet stat line we've been using) or Power Sword (S5 I3 ignores armor). Any points for that trade off would be less than five, so I'm kind of eschewing it in my mind.

[chaplain belisarius]

owww! thats a great point there thade! didnt even think of that...ouch! no hammernators then...:cuss

[thade]

That will mean - at the end of the day - his melee-kitted Captains will be swinging at S10 with Power Fists. Since they're not allowed anywhere else, I'd make Chainfists available on Captains, very expensive (like 35 points) and give them some cool rule, like...

 

Captain can take Chainsword and Chainfist. If he uses Chainfist, he gets his base attacks only at I1, S10, 2d6 armor pen. If he uses the chainsword, he gets an offhand attack from the Chainfist, so 4 attacks at I4 (he's a Captain, so +1I), S5. Alternatively he can also take the 2H chainsword, never get the offhand bonus, but still choose if he wants to go at I3 (and Rend) or I1 (and get 2x S).

 

Given that Captains can potentially go to S10 with a fist, I'd both make the fist more expensive than normal (30-35 points instead of the normal 25) and the Captain himself a bit more (110 instead of 100) to account for the fact he's base S5 swinging at I4 otherwise.

 

Finally, if the Captain takes only a Chainsword in Terminator Armor, he should be allowed to take an Assault Cannon (also very expensive...think 40 points...because he's BS5), and otherwise any heavy weapon option he'd like (again +10 points per weapon since he's BS5). So, Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher, Lascannon, Heavy Bolter...whatever.

 

Just my two cents. (A lotta two cents, admittedly.)

 

...finally, I really think Thunder Hammers should not be allowed in this dex at all. <3

[SnakeoilSage]

*Laugh* I step out to do some model painting last night and look what happens?

 

I might have to write a ground-up Codex just so players don't get confused. Lots of ranged Elites and Heavy Support, minimal Fast Attack.

 

What do you think, should I go for it? I could probably get something done by the end of the week. (Yes, I have that much free time right now.)

[chaplain belisarius]

I think maybe that could be interesting-maybe limit terminators to the captains command squad? maybe allow them to take all sorts of upgrades (kind of like chaos terminators? pw and combi weapons perhaps?)

 

good idea?

[SnakeoilSage]

I think maybe that could be interesting-maybe limit terminators to the captains command squad? maybe allow them to take all sorts of upgrades (kind of like chaos terminators? pw and combi weapons perhaps?)

 

good idea?

 

I do like that idea. Maybe I could take out the Terminator forces, rewrite the High Guard and set them up as the only Terminator squad in the Chapter.

 

How about instead of extra CC weapons, I introduce a buckler-style shield that allow for armour re-rolls for any roll of a 1? They wouldn't get an extra attack but they would be more defensible which kind of fits their Chapter theme. Being Star Shields and all.

[chaplain belisarius]

or maybe give them storm shields? good idea?

[SnakeoilSage]

or maybe give them storm shields? good idea?

 

For the Terminators, and maybe basic Sergeants? Yeah, I can see that. Not for the regular troops, though.

[thade]

I mean, a rerollable 2+ armor save is good, but not as good as the 3++ Storm Shields I suggested. :cuss Def go with one or the other though. Not both.

 

I can totally get behind dropping Termies as Elite choices entirely in favor of having Command Squads be Terminators. Consider very strongly what I said about forbidding Terminators from taking strength-doubling weapons. The only infantry models in your army that should be able to go S10 are the Captains...if anybody.

 

You could make the +1S -1I an army wide rule and impose the restriction that "This rule is lost if the owner puts on a Power Fist." But honestly I like the first option better. It would make your Captains stand out and give you the "something cool in melee" thing I get the sense you'd like.

[chaplain belisarius]

thats a great idea thade! maybe only let captains take powerfists, no one else. And keep terminators as the captains command squad (but armed more like chaos terminators-powerweapon and combi weapons?). Give them storm shields too (it fits that the high elite of the star shields carry, well, shields!)

 

good idea?