SnakeoilSage Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 Salamander is a good pick :D everone knows you are inflexible ;) Personnaly that's why I favor being vague in the Combat doctrine part. As we know war is an art and not an exact science :P even the Ultramarines have bend the codex when they formed the Tyranic war veterans I think so too! Yeah, but I'm right. lol True that. The only constant is bloodshed. Aye. I don't think Roboute would mind either, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Also... The timeline really didn't "do" anything for me... It was... Meh... I'd pick, like Two really important battles, use them, build them up in-depth, and tell us how they affected the mentality of the Chapter... We already Know Space Marines fight... They fight Alot... THAT is what they do... We don't Need the honor roll... It's their job... However, there are battles that can, and have, fundamentally changed a Chapter's ideologies... THOSE are the cool ones... Also... I'm also abit skeptical about the 'siege warfare' thing... That being said... 'Siege Making', no... You lack th enumbers... And that is the job of the Imperial Guard... They grind-down... Whiddle-away... etcetera... Now 'Siege Breaking', I can see... Space Marines are 'active', they rip, tear, shatter, break, pierce, destroy... They don't sit in foxholes... That is what the millions of bodies of the Guard do, as they wait for the big guns to move up... To tie-in with the battles... Pick a cool fight, and incoprorate an "extremely foolish stubbornnes", ala the Imperial Guard, into it... Highlighting their extreme inflexability in defense... Use another (maybe) to highlight, and excentuate, their methodical cracking abilities... Ultimately, don't forget... AT MOST, you only have 1,000 Marines... Usually, only a few Hundred are on hand at any given battle... It'd be impossbile to surround a fortress of Chaos with a few Hundred Marines... Heck, even the Warsmiths of the Iron Warriors use copious amounts of slave labor, and cheap "cannon fodder" slaves so they can inch closer to a battlement... I would bet that ANY Warsmith worth his salt would Never waste his Warriors in useless artillery duels or digging moats... Also... This IS a fluff forum... There'll be TONS of critiqueing in regards to how well they mesh in "the ooniverse", not how they mesh with a rulebook on a plywood table covered in fake trees and mountains... And sometimes fake lakes... "I'm sorry... Tactical Squad Telenicus has drowned..."... "Seriously!?"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeoilSage Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 Also... The timeline really didn't "do" anything for me... It was... Meh... I'd pick, like Two really important battles, use them, build them up in-depth, and tell us how they affected the mentality of the Chapter... We already Know Space Marines fight... They fight Alot... THAT is what they do... We don't Need the honor roll... It's their job... However, there are battles that can, and have, fundamentally changed a Chapter's ideologies... THOSE are the cool ones... Also... I'm also abit skeptical about the 'siege warfare' thing... That being said... 'Siege Making', no... You lack th enumbers... And that is the job of the Imperial Guard... They grind-down... Whiddle-away... etcetera... Now 'Siege Breaking', I can see... Space Marines are 'active', they rip, tear, shatter, break, pierce, destroy... They don't sit in foxholes... That is what the millions of bodies of the Guard do, as they wait for the big guns to move up... To tie-in with the battles... Pick a cool fight, and incoprorate an "extremely foolish stubbornnes", ala the Imperial Guard, into it... Highlighting their extreme inflexability in defense... Use another (maybe) to highlight, and excentuate, their methodical cracking abilities... Ultimately, don't forget... AT MOST, you only have 1,000 Marines... Usually, only a few Hundred are on hand at any given battle... It'd be impossbile to surround a fortress of Chaos with a few Hundred Marines... Heck, even the Warsmiths of the Iron Warriors use copious amounts of slave labor, and cheap "cannon fodder" slaves so they can inch closer to a battlement... I would bet that ANY Warsmith worth his salt would Never waste his Warriors in useless artillery duels or digging moats... Also... This IS a fluff forum... There'll be TONS of critiqueing in regards to how well they mesh in "the ooniverse", not how they mesh with a rulebook on a plywood table covered in fake trees and mountains... And sometimes fake lakes... "I'm sorry... Tactical Squad Telenicus has drowned..."... "Seriously!?"... You know you used about 42 ellipsis in that statement. I'll keep the condensed battle timelines in mind, but where Fluff and Rules clash, I'm sticking with Rules. Sorry if you don't like that, but fluff is incredibly ambiguous, especially in modern Warhammer books, and what's set in stone one edition will be a flimsy footnoote in the next. What right do I have to spit in the face of this tradition? They're MY MODELS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 The fluff and the rules do not gel. We've been arguing that fact for days and it's giving me rampant bouts of hysterical pregnancy. I pick rules over fluff, because the rules decide what my army is capable in any given game edition, and the fluff is more what you might call guidelines than actual rules (welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner). If W40K 6th Edition is released tomorrow and the new Space Marine Codex forces me to build an army that cannot exist without the mobility you speak of, then the Star Shields will change. Indeed, the the rules and fluff don't gel. However the rules change, the fluff stays the same. You have fallen in the same pitfall like 100+ DIYers before you. You are so obsessed with rules that you let it to dictates the fluff, a bad thing. I will continue bellow, so you can see foolishness of your ways. I like my defensive Space Marines. I've won battles against Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Orks, Sisters of Battle and Tyranids by holding my table edge and using nothing but Drop Pods of Space Marines, Dreadnoughts, and Terminators to attack his forces. That for me is enough justification for their fighting style, because the rules (and my victories) tell me I'm doing it right. Lol, you are missing the point. The one game of 40k is insignificant when it comes to determination of right or wrong combat doctrine. Why? Well, first. Like was said above the fluff=/=rules and vice versa, the rules are very abstract representation of fluff (and vice versa) + this very game lacks most of the elements of Strategy and Operational Art. Both these things are the very very important for deployment of your force. As for your victories, their value in the theater of war is also unimportant. Why? Because the game is balanced out (or rather it's meant to be). IF we were about to represent a "realistic battle settings", your 2.500 points Space Marine force will be facing 50.000 points worth Imperial Guard force on table top the size of football stadion and there is still the problem of abstract rules and game mechanics. Do you see, what I see? :) I don't care if one paragraph in the book states I'm doing it wrong. A Space Marine Chapter isn't following the Codex Astartes? Oh My Roboute Guilliman! Even the non-codex Chapters like Black Templars and Space Wolves are still shock troopers. The mobility and rapid redeployment is true to all Chapters regardless of adherence to Codex. :P In an interesting example of juxtaposition, however, the fluctuating gravity of Nocturne makes training with certain units such as Land Speeders and Bikes difficult, therefore the chapter makes little use of them, in favour of Devastator squads and Terminator Squads (the chapter has 120 veterans as opposed to the typical 100). Indeed, it is fitting that Salamanders be lacking in the way of Fast Attack, as for some inexplicable reason, they naturally have slightly slower reflexes than most Space Marines. It should be noted though, that their reflexes are still significantly faster than those of a normal human. Trained never to give up or retreat, Salamanders are capable of going on when their entire squad is dead, holding positions for months on end. This is one of the more significant effects of Promethean doctrines upon the Chapter's collective psyche. There. You can almost replace "Salamanders" with "Star Shields," they're so similar. In fact I'm kicking myself for not digging this up sooner because if I had known I would have made Salamanders their progenitor right from the get go, and we would have known this whole debate was pointless right from the get-go. The problem with this Lexicanum entry is that it's personnal take on the Salamanders. Read B&C article and you will not find any such theoretising. +++++ Off-topic: And we all know how 300 ended, but the phalanx combat style remained effective and to this day is one of the most noteworthy tactics of that era. Spoiler alert: Greece won. The Persians didn't conquer Sparta after the movie ended. Phalanx style is actually quite useless and inflexible battle formation. Just saying. B) As for the movie spoiler. The Persians conquered Athens and ravaged Greece, until forced to withdrawn after battle of Salamis. The battle of Themopylae was strategical defeat, only the naval victory saved the Greece from the ruins. Cheers, NightrawenII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiny sam Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 what about a uses of Scout for rapid stike missions. they do not yet have the slow reflex that came "over time" and scoute are generaly hot blooded, unlike the Cool headed initiate the Star Shield look like they dislike the close combat seeing this as ineffective and barbaric. (why uselessly risking your life in close combat when you can simply over kill it at distance). If Close combat is necessary send the novice, after all they are faster than the initiate and are not "real" Star Shield yet. and the fact that the Star Shield use scout for CC mission don't force you to field them (have I ever field a Land speeder Tronado yet...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeoilSage Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 @NightrawenII: I'm done arguing. I dictate how my Chapter fights; they're my models. This bible-thumping is getting tiresome. @tiny sam: Scouts are used the way any Space Marine force uses them; to gather intel. The Star Shelds love them some good intel. :) The Chapter doesn't hate close combat, it would be illogical to forsake it out of hand, but the recognize they're at a disadvantage up close and so it's their goal to kill as many attackers as possible from as good a range as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiny sam Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 @NightrawenII: I'm done arguing. I dictate how my Chapter fights; they're my models. This bible-thumping is getting tiresome. @tiny sam: Scouts are used the way any Space Marine force uses them; to gather intel. The Star Shelds love them some good intel. ;) The Chapter doesn't hate close combat, it would be illogical to forsake it out of hand, but the recognize they're at a disadvantage up close and so it's their goal to kill as many attackers as possible from as good a range as possible. might want to wrap this up in the combat doctrine section. you could also include their view of the Codex Astartes (their reason to exist as a distinguished entity...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeoilSage Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 Yeah. Honestly though I've exhausted myself writing and re-writing and arguing my position on it. I'm happy with what I've got for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 hey! dont get down in the dumps man...your chapter is looking good! <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeoilSage Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share Posted October 1, 2011 I agree Belisarius. I'm just tired of changing what I feel doesn't need changing. *Chuckle* And I needed some time away from 40,000 to write some Ogre Kingdoms stuff for The Bellower fan-zine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 good! my work here (as a chaplain) is done! moral crisis averted! thought for the day-to question is to doubt! ;) (any more painted star shields?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeoilSage Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 Haven't done any painting lately. Trying to assemble my Ogre Kingdoms army right now, but my friend (who helped me make the Star Shields) is getting a Roan Drake model painted, built from a combination of Grey Knight, Black Templar Emperor's Champion, and a Jump Pack. If he finishes I'll get a picture. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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