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The Black Eagles


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blackoption

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THE BLACK EAGLES


CHAPTER NAME: .............. THE BLACK EAGLES
FOUNDING: ..................3RD [M.32]
CHAPTER WORLD: .............BRAGG, SOLLEX PASSAGE SUBSECTOR
FORTRESS MONASTERY: ........NORTHERN WATCH
GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR): ...ULTRAMARINE [UNKNOWN, RECORDS INCOMPLETE]
KNOWN DESCENDANTS: .........UNKNOWN, RECORDS INCOMPLETE




"<<Quote, battle-cry, or whatever else you want to fill this space>>"

 

Index Astartes

Origins of the <<Chapter>>


"Brothers... in our arrogance we charged blindy. We shall not make the same mistake again. The darkness is not to be scorned, but respected. In our pride and rage, we forgot the fundamentals our genefather taught to us. Never again. Never shall we forget the lessons this campaign have taught  us."
-attributed to Warden Rythumus Kurtz, (Chapter Master the first Warden of the Black Eagles) after the Tisiphone Incursion, M32 (estimated)


Founded early in the Imperium's history, the Black Eagles were almost destroyed shortly after becoming a full chapter. Initally founded as a fleet based chapter, the Black Eagles served as mobile force along the edge of the Eye of Terror. On one of its earliest campaigns, the Black Eagles pursued a traitor warband (Emperor's Children according to Chapter legend) into the fringes of the Eye and right into a trap. As the traitor band turned to face the Black Eagles, Alpha Legion forces appeared from behind. Trapped between elements of two traitor legions and losses steadily mounting, the Black Eagles forced a breakout, but just barely. Out of the entire chapter, only one battle barge and little over 200 marines under Brother Captain Kurtz left the eye of terror. Broken and barely functioning, the survivors were hounded by traitor marines.


Fleeing from the failed incursion into the Tisiphone Reefs, Kurtz and his remaining brethren fought a desperate running battle against pursuing Alpha Legion forces. Out gunned and out of resources, the Black Eagles would have been destroyed as a chapter, had it not been for a chance encounter with the Raptors. A Raptor's battleforce had begun stalking the Alpha Legion ships and as the traitors attempted to eliminate Kurtz and his beleaguered forces, Raptor forces intervened. According to Black Eagle's lore, the Raptors were actually surprised upon discovering that these battered survivors were all that was left of a renowned Chapter.


The retreat from the Tisiphone Reefs left the Black Eagles painfully low on supplies, manpower, and material. Out of a full chapter, only one company could be considered still combat worthy: The fifth company still retained its standard. Along with the fifth, 30 veterans from the First company along with elements from the eighth, ninth, and tenth company were all that remained on the chapters sole remaining battle barge.


The Black Eagles and the Raptors continued their cooperation. Unable to fight on their own, the Black Eagles offered to join under the Raptors as they regained strength. This cooperation lasted for 150 years. At the point where The Black Eagles could fight on their own again, then Warden Kurtz swore oaths of honor to the Raptors. Over the millennia, the Raptor and Black Eagle chapters still maintain a strong friendship.



It would be almost two centuries before the Black Eagles would return to the Eye. Though still not at full strength, the Chapter felt honor bound to search for any other survivors. A portion of the survivors had initially refused to fall back. Led by a Chaplain (who's name has been lost to history), these marines believed that they could still relieve and extract the missing Black Eagle Chapter Master. The rest of the Chapter feared for the fate of these last heroes. Though still rebuilding, the Black Eagles sent four companies under Warden Kurtz to search for signs of their lost brothers. A few hulks from the Tisiphone incursion were found and searched but no survivors were recovered. The only measure of retribution in the campaign was the destruction of the traitor base that staged the ambush. Bitter from this second campaign into the Eye of Terror, the Black Eagles requested reassignment to a new sector of space. This request would eventually lead them to the Maelstrom.

 

*records still loading....***

 

Homeworld

At the time of the 3rd Founding, the Black Eagles were established to be a Fleet based chapter. After their reassignment from the Eye of Terror, they began to patrol large swathes of the Ultima, Obscurus, and Solar Segmentums at irregular intervals. The Black Eagles make it a point to never repeat the same patrol route or even return along the route that it started on. For much of the Imperium's history, the Black Eagles kept these seemingly random patrol route, only deviating (if that is even an appropriate term) for recruitment purposes.


It was shortly after the Nova Terra Interegnum that the Black Eagles established a Fortress Monastery on the Fortress World of Bragg. As part of the Interegnum, large portions of the Imperium's fight forces were relocated. The Black Eagles were amongst these forces moved by the High Lords of Terra. Bragg was (and still is) a Fortress World supporting the Imperium's efforts to contain threats from the Maelstrom. Located in the Sollex Passage Subsector, Bragg sits along a major supply and trade route used through Ultima Segmentum and is a common route used for Pilgrimages to the Ultramar Sector. Though lost to the Imperium for a brief period of time during the Scouring, Bragg was resettled as a 'right of conquest' reward for a Terran Imperial Guard Regiment (the 82nd Merican Fusiliers) and kept many of their Terran traditions. Between Bragg's ties to Holy Terra and its location along a prosperous trade route, the world could have petitioned itself as a subsector, or even sector, Capital world.

 

However, Bragg seems to be content with its current role in the Imperium as a fortress world. It was originally believed to be modeled as a "Cadia in the galactic west", more recent historical documents suggest that it may have been modeled on the Ancient War World of Armatura.  While not everyone born on the planet serves in the Imperium's defense, most work in related industries. As a fortress world, Bragg often serves as an anchorage for troop ships and offers resupply (and retraining if needed) for IG regiments passing through.  Bragg is also the location of a significant  Military Academy. This Academy, known locally as "Southern End", is known for the quality of Storm Troopers, Commissars, Arbites, and IG officers it produces. In large part due to the Chapter, the Southern End has followed the Ultramar model of military training and teaching its students.


Establishing their new Headquarters along the southern edge of the Northern Polar regions, Northern Watch was built around the archeological remains of an old Astartes staging area that may date back to the Great Crusade. This mountain fortification appears to modeled on the Fortress of Hera at Macragge, for much of the Architecture in the Black Eagle's fortess appears to be copied from their Primogenators Headquarters.

 

Recruitment

 

"Strength is not the core of the Astartes. Service, Duty, and Honor is. All warriors of the Imperium are bound by these ideals. These three hallowed words show the galaxy what you can be, what you shall be, what you will be. They are the foundation for you strength: to build when courage when if recedes from your allies; to stand firm when all else fall back; to hope even after hope itself is lost..."

- Commandant Arthor, D (The 35th Commandant of the Black Eagles)

As a fleet based chapter, The Black Eagles preferred to recruit from not from feral or death worlds in the Imperium, but from the troop ships and garrisons of the Imperial Guard. The children and orphans of IG heroes, veterans, and martyrs would be given an opportunity to join their ranks. It is viewed by the Black Eagles that service to the Imperium is the core ideal of the chapter. This trait is shared by not only them, but also the families who have served and sacrificed for the Imperium. The Black Eagles pride themselves in never forcing recruitment, for they accept only volunteers. If the candidate passes the trials, he is taken in to begin training and assessment to become a
Scout Initiate. This practice has continued into the present.


Since basing themselves at Bragg, the Black Eagles have incorporated the Southern End into their recruitment, modeling themselves on Ultramar and the Ultramarines recruitment practices. Select chapter serfs, and even the infrequent "semi-retired" Astartes, serve as instructors, advisors and assessors for over five thousand cadets yearly. Every four years, the Black Eagles select a batch of anywhere from twenty to one hundred of the top cadets (with the majority coming from the Storm Trooper program historically). The cadets are given the trials and challenges and up to half may be selected to join the chapter and be assessed as Scout Initiates.


Combat Doctrine

"Which is more important, the lesson or the wisdom behind it?"
-attributed to Scout Sergeant Mathis, Z (M33)



The Black Eagles strongly advocate and support use of the Codex Astartes. They view the flexibility of its teachings and approach to war as central to the chapter's success in war. However, they also view the codex as an incomplete document. The Black Eagle's believe that their Primarch still wished to refine and edit the codex, but was unable after the treasonous Fulgrim laid-low Guilliman. Also of note, the Black Eagles refuse to view the Codex Astartes as anything other then doctrine of how to employ Astartes. This has caused some consternation amongst a few of primogenitors, particularly the Genesis Chapter, whom have a more dogmatic approach to the codex.


With a flick of
his wrist, Lothus decapitated the guard with his power sword as he
brought his bolter to bear on his target. The mutant barely had time to
register his presence before four more members of the Nightwing emerged
from the shadows, butchering her security detail. Instinctively, the
mutant reached for her third eye before her head dissolved from the
impact of a hellfire round.


"Target secundus neutralized" Lothus announced over the vox


"Acknowledged... Proceed to primary objective" came a response.


Without its navigator and its astropath already dead, the Torchbearer
could neither flee nor call for aid. Crippled, the vessel was now
helpless as the Nightwing continued their mission

.


While fully versed and capable in the Codex, the Black Eagles have a historical preference for shock strikes that capitalize greatly on the element of surprise. They frequently send out advance strike units to sew discord and confusion amongst the enemies' ranks. Often hiding their presence from their Imperial allies, the Black Eagles tend to announce their arrival on the field of battle by striking and destroying critical enemy positions and logistical stations. After this initial strike, the Black Eagles continue their attack and focus on crippling, as opposed to outright killing, the enemy force. After inflicting as much damage as possible in the initial confusion, the Black Eagles quickly coordinate with Imperial forces and often provide significant intel on enemy compositions and dispositions.

As a rule, the Black Eagles have been known to pass credit for victories on to their allies, often Imperial Guard Regiments. While this is puzzling behavior for many Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, it has led the Black Eagles to have unusually strong ties to many Regiments of the Imperial Guard. It is possible that this venerable chapter no longer feels the need to prove its honor and ability with publicity and glory of war. However, critics of this chapter whisper rumors that the chapter must be hiding a secret if it does not what their glories to be known. Irregardless, this policy has led to many of the younger Astartes Chapters, particularly recently founded or glory hungry chapters, over the millennia to welcome Black Eagle's aid.

When the Black Eagles do venture solo campaigns, they are usually strike operations in regions lost to the Imperium. Drawing on lessons learned from the Chapter's early campaigns (and mistakes), the Black Eagles have become surprisingly proficient at these normally high risk operations. These campaigns can range from hunting Eldar corsairs in wilderness space and culling Ork words to keep Waaughs in check to systematically scouring chaos worlds of all life and resources. In these operations, the Black Eagles work to weed out small problems before they develop into issues that can threaten a sector. However, the Black Eagles prefer to limit their duration these lost regions as corruption is an ever present threat. The only other time the Black Eagles conduct prefer to conduct solo operations is when they are have volunteered to purge Chapters which have turned traitor. Though a grim task, the Black Eagle have volunteered three times to perform it.

 



Organization

"Remember the Chapter; Honor your Battalion, Rally to your Company; and Fight with your Squad. War is upon us brothers. How will you respond?"
-Brother Chaplain Dodson, J (Serial: K573-119-JL84B. Active. Note: Youngest Marines to be inducted into the Chaplaincy, see file AQI.384.1139K)



The Black Eagles are based on the standard Codex model, but have some variation to orthodox codex implementation.


First off, there appear to be two chapter masters for the Black Eagles. Prior to basing out of Bragg, the Warden of the Black Eagles commanded all operations. While no longer the De Facto Chapter Master, the Warden is still responsible for all expeditionary campaigns and while the Regent now controls chapter operations from the Northern Watch.

Secondly, since basing on the world of Bragg, the Black Eagles returned to a more Legion Astartes structure of having two battalions within the chapter. The Black Eagles are still bound by ancient oaths to patrol vast areas of space. However, the Sollex passage is a vital trade route of the Imperium and is face increasing amount of raids from both Ork and Chaos vessels from the Maelstrom (even more so with the end of the Badab War). To accomplish both missions, the Black Eagles deploy one of these Battalions (each having four companies) while the other Battalion remains to guard the Sollex passage and its neighboring sectors.

The Battalions themselves are comprised of two Battle Companies (of standard codex design), one Assault Company (six Assault squads supported with two tactical and two devastators squads), and one Weapons Company (six devastator squads supported with two tactical and two assault). Thougn nominally commanded by the senior Brother Captain, referred to as Battle Captains, it is the Warden's or Regent's privilage to assume command of these formations. The 1st Battalion controls the 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th Companies while the 2nd Battalion commands the 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th Companies. Only the Veteran 1st Company and the 10th Company remain independent from the Battalions.

Following in the tradition laid down by First Captain Thayer at the refounding of the First Company, their are only ever 30 inducted members. Known as the Praetorians, these 30 marines serve both as instructors and combat leaders. In the dark days following the first Tisiphone campaign, the surviving veterans found them selves hard pressed to lead regular squads of marines. By intermixing seven senior battle brothers along side of three veterans, the "Praetorian" squads became the backbone of the rebuilding chapter. As the Black Eagles regained strength and the first company refounded, then Veteran Sergeant TykusThayer petitioned that the Praetorian history be incorporated into the First company's history. Upon Thayer's promotion, the Praetorian Decree mandated that the First Company became the place where the Chapter's future leadership would train, accepting only senior battle brothers who have proven themselves worthy for leadership. Thus, service within the first company under the stewardship of the Praetorian became a rite of passage for all those considered for the honors and responsibility of a Brother Sergeant


[rightsidebar=Since the creation of the Nightwing, there has been friction between it

and the inducted Praetorians. While both call the other brother, an

aggressive rivalry has developed that overshadows the competition

between the Sternguard and Vanguard found in most chapters. For

generations, the Praetorians handled both duties as the Elite Company

and the Chapter's Killteams. Yet after the Terrik Assault, it was

determined the Praetorians should no longer due both. The Praetorian

Decree mandates that the inducted members of 1st Company are to be the

instructors of Chapter's leadership. Yet there were missions were only

the most lethal of warriors, honed to the most deadly edge, could hope

to accomplish. In these circumstances, teaching became... a liability.

Regent Locutus, himself the former First Captain, began to turn more to

his Honor Guard for these 'special missions'. Thus the Nightwing was

born. With the creation of the Nightwing, the Praetorians were freed to

preform their obligated duty, but it was not a task they wished to be

rid of...][left]The Lectures Xavier Lanreth: Chapter Surf, Dean of Academic Doctrination, M39[/left][/rightsidebar]

 

Perhaps the greatest deviation from the codex is the Black Eagles'use of Terminator Armor.  Unlike most chapters, the Black Eagles allow Brothers outside of the 1st Company to wear it into battle.  Terminator armor is assigned at the Battalion level as well as the 1st Company. The bearers of the Tactical Dreadnaught Armor are still required to have earned the Crux Terminatus.  The Battalions and the 1st Company have about 30 of these hallowed suits each.

Below the Regent and Warden are the Senior Council; The First Company Captain, the Commandant of the 10th, and the Battle Captains of the Battalion as well as the Magister of the Librarium, Arch-Engineer of the Forge, and the Reclusiam of the Memorial.  The Battle Captains are the selected (though usually longest serving) from the Brother Captains of each Battalion.  It is the Senior Council whom determine who will succeed a fallen Brother Captain and one of the Senior Council who will take up the mantle of Warden OR Regent when a vacancy occurs.

The Chapter fleet has been rebuilt since the Tisiphone Incursion.  They presently Black Eagles maintain three Battle Barges, (the Eagle's Nest, the Guilliman's Charter, and Talons of Justice) along with half a dozen Strike Cruisers and various support craft.  Like the rest of the chapter, half the fleet goes out on patrol when a Battalion deploys. Only the Strike Cruiser of the First Company, the "Preemptive Strike", is permanently assigned to a single company.

 

 

Beliefs

"Forgive me, lord Astartes, but I find your lack of faith disturbing..."
"Lack of faith? Tell me bishop, what does your cult teach of the Great Crusade? What does the Ministorium say of the Emperor's dream for humanity? What did the Temple know of the honoring his memory? Stay here long enough, priest, and you will learn that we have kept faith with the original word of the Emperor. What do you know of the Imperial Truth?"
-recorded conversation between Archbishop Yesrup (Therrix Sector) and then Brother Chaplain Kearnes (current status: entombed in a Dreadnaught), M37



Ever since the near-destruction of the chapter followed by the successes they had when rescued by the Raptors Chapter, the Black Eagles have always sought to work with other forces of the Imperium when possible. The brash ways of their early years were replaced with the view that "an enemy is weakest when he doesn't know he is fighting." This has molded the Chapter's ways of war. Deception was a tool to be respected in war and not to be scorned.

As a Brother becomes more veteran, segments of his armor are repainted black, symbolizing his time hunting enemies even past the light of the Imperium. After service with the Praetorians, the Brother's should pads are painted black. It is only upon induction to the Praetorians or Nightwing, or selection as a Brother Captain does the chest piece become painted Black.

The Black Eagles refuse to the Emperor of Mankind a god. Gods are the realm of heresy and chaos. It is for preverse gods that traitor legions fell from the Emperor's truth. Thus they view the term as an insult to Master of Mankind. They venerate him as the Patriarch for Humanity and hold close to the ideals of Great Crusade: That Humanity must remain the dominate species in the Galaxy and all of Humanity should be under the banner of the Emperor. The Black Eagles believe that the duty of the Great Crusade is not over for it was never finished. Because of this belief, and their experience with warp infested areas, the Black Eagles regularly launch incursions into the Maelstrom, hunting and destroying traitor and xenos alike. Knowing they are only one chapter, they are careful not overextend themselves.

While of Guilliman's blood line, the Black Eagles also hold the loyalist primarchs in great respect. They still hold Guilliman as first amongst
equals, but each of the Loyalist Primarchs holds a statue in their great hall and a small shrine tended to by the Chapter surfs.


While the
Sororitas and the Astartes were instrumental in quelling the apostate
cardinal from the Northern reaches of the Debprem Mountains, a most
disturbing incident occurred that I must report. Shortly after the
Sisters of Battle had executed the fallen cardinal, the Black Eagles
turned their weapons on Sisters of Battle. Accusing the Sororitas of
violating the Degree Passive, the Black Eagle commander, for lack of a
better term, arrested the Canoness and her retinue. The sisters have
since been turned over to my custody and the Astartes promptly departed
this world soon after...

-excerpt from Proctor Carr's report regarding the termination of the Temple Tendency in the Pichnny System.



While strong supporters of cooperation between the Imperium's armies in pursuit of war, the Black Eagles have had some rocky relations with certain elements of the Imperium. They have an antagonistic relationship with elements of the Ecclesiarchy. The Black Eagles view the Ministorium as corrupt and power hungry. This includes the Militant orders of the Adeptus Sororitas. Ever since the Pinchny Incident, the Black Eagles and Sisters of Battle have never taken to the field of battle as allies. The Black Eagles have also been known to retire from Crusades when they become Wars of Faith. In turn, the Ministorium has pressured the Inquisition to censure the Black Eagles.

Thus far, the Black Eagles has strong relations with factions of the Inquisition. The Inquisition has found the Black Eagles reliable in dealing with issues in wilderness space and the Chapter's strong support of the Deathwatch has made it strong allies in the Ordos Xenos. The Chapter has also a good working relationship with the priesthood of Mars, particularly in recent centuries with the scouring of the twin space hulks "Brothers of Ruin".

 

Battle Honors:

Routing of Dark Apostle's Isran's Host, Columbia 5, Regolas Sector, M37 

AKA The Defacement of the Columbian Cathedral


 

In the early years of 600M37, Dark Apostle Isran's self styled "Infernal Campaign" came to a surprise ending upon the Shrine World of Columbia 5.  Despite protests from the Archcardinal of the Regolas, Sector command had decided to make its stand on the Forge world of Camerous (Columbia 4) while commiting token forces to defence of the Shrine world of Columbia 5.  In following with his meglomanic pattern of issuing outlandish and insane demands upon each world he invaded, Isran ordered the citizens of Columbia 5 to replace every statue of the Emperor with one of himself.

 

Volunteering his company to defend the Shrine World, Brother Captain Baus vowed to Cardinal Dias-Ingon that the traitors would be stopped "at the very foot of the Emperor" and would "Not defile or destroy (the Emperor's) works."   Upon hearing this proclaimation, fanatics and zealous defenders of the church volunteered in mass to help the Brother Captain fullfill his oath (much to his reported displeasure).  

 

Captain Baus took command of the defense of the major hive and established his HQ in the Columbian Cathedral.  Though a spirited defense was put up by the Fraternis Militia and PDF, Baus held his Astartes and IG forces around the Cathedral complex itself.  Seeking to tarnish Captain Baus's  word, Apostle Isran focused his efforts on seizing the Columbian Cathedral complex.  Fraternis Milita and Cultists alike slaughtered each other in the streets, but Baus refused to commit either his IG or Astartes.  Ultimately crushed under the weight of Cultists and Isran's Astartes, the militia and PDF could do little to stop the traitor march.

 

It would not be until the first traitor Astartes walked upon the steps of the Cathedral Entrance did Baus spring his trap.  Isran's hubris and desire to personally be the first to enter the Cathedral had left the bulk of his traitor Astartes in and around the Cathedral's Courtyard. Just as Isran opened the Cathedral door did the melta charges detonate. The resulting controlled demolition of the front face of the Cathedral, as well as two nearby towers, caused Isran's forces to be buried in rubble. The demolition also revealed the conceal ambush positions of his entire company task force and IG veteran support. Reeling from the losses caused by the collapsed structures on his forces and paralyzed as they attempted to dig themselves out,  The Word Bearers were cut down as the defenders assaulted the ruined courtyard. Apostle's Isran's was killed by Praetorian Sgt Armstron and the traitor's head was placed as a trophy at the base of the (still intact) Ivory statue of the Emperor Resplendant. Without the leadership of their Apostle and most of his Astartes dead, the remaining cultists were routed from the planet over the course of the next three weeks.

 

Addendum: The Ministorium lodged a complaint to the Sector Governor in the aftermath of this campaign, citing extensive damage to the face and support buildings of the Columbia Cathedral. While the main building was still structurally intact, and all its internal assets in good condition (minus being caked in dust), the Archcardinal was incensed about the "Blantant defacement of His Most Holiness of houses. Captain's Baus's reportedly dismissed the Archcardinal's complaint as "irrelevant"

**Records still loading**


Geneseed

Following in the example of the Ultramarines, The Black Eagles Gene-seed remains pure with no mutations or abnormalities.


Battle Cry

The Black Eagles do not appear to have a set battle cry. Each Battalion has its own greeting and each Company has its own motto instead.

Related Articles

 

First Venerable Brother Tykus Thayer


Edited by blackoption, 24 March 2013 - 05:13 PM.


#2
recon0321

recon0321

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first off brother i did 3 tours in Iraq so i know all about how it feels to be deployed...keep your head up...i was in the Corps from 02-06 need anything let me know...now onto things 40k related

first off great IA for a start love the cooperation with the raptors...love the heavy military influence...like the idea of battalions never thought of that before...i searched but couldn't find anything on there colors...

i am currently working on a IA for my DIY chapter the War Eagles mind if i incorporate yours in my IA?? maybe they can be support each other in a battle??

i only wish i had known about 40k when i was deployed

keep your head down...
Profile photo courteous of Flint13

#3
voi shet magir

voi shet magir

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This is the best thread active right now on the whole forum. I'm just going to fix the syntax and usage, and maybe you'll care.

#4
blackoption

blackoption

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first off brother i did 3 tours in Iraq so i know all about how it feels to be deployed...keep your head up...i was in the Corps from 02-06 need anything let me know...now onto things 40k related

first off great IA for a start love the cooperation with the raptors...love the heavy military influence...like the idea of battalions never thought of that before...i searched but couldn't find anything on there colors...

i am currently working on a IA for my DIY chapter the War Eagles mind if i incorporate yours in my IA?? maybe they can be support each other in a battle??

i only wish i had known about 40k when i was deployed

keep your head down...


Thank you for the encouragement. I had the scheme ready on the Space Marine painter, but I was having issues with the coding of it.

I am open to collaboration. PM me with what you have in mind.

#5
NightrawenII

NightrawenII

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Hello and welcome in the Liber. I hope you will enjoy your stay. :jaw:

I have read this article and I think it's good and believable Chapter. By the by, it seems like your profession is not painfully obvious in your writing. That's good, very good. *little applause*

But, I have some other *problems* with your article. - Mind you, the following are my personnal opinions not the problems per se. Therefore please tell me clearly, what do you want to do further with your Chapter.

It's too wordy and long for what it says. - Basically, after everything has been said and done, the Black Eagles are coming out as vanilla Chapter. Either the divergences are just "cosmetic", like the organisation, or not significant enough to be called a major theme of the Chapter, the Alpha Legion incident early in the history.

I do understand that not everyone sought out *Bang!* Chapter, nor I'm saying that your Chapter is boring. It's just... featureless.

Oh, I almost forgot:
I am still editing the pictures. I haven't figured out how to put the actual chapter badge on them.
- Look, here.


Cheers, NightrawenII.

It may seem counterintuitive but in ancient warfare, fleeing from battle was usually a good way to get oneself killed.
~ Jeffrey R. Cox - Cascading Failure: The Roman Disaster at Adrianople AD 378

 

Give the peasants neither life nor death.

~ Tokugawa Ieyasu

 

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

~ Blaise Pascal


#6
blackoption

blackoption

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Hello and welcome in the Liber. I hope you will enjoy your stay. :angry:

I intend to.

I have read this article and I think it's good and believable Chapter. By the by, it seems like your profession is not painfully obvious in your writing. That's good, very good. *little applause*

But, I have some other *problems* with your article. - Mind you, the following are my personnal opinions not the problems per se. Therefore please tell me clearly, what do you want to do further with your Chapter.


some feedback is better then no feed back. I was hoping I might attract your attention or Octavug or any number of the "premiere level" IA authors.

It's too wordy and long for what it says. - Basically, after everything has been said and done, the Black Eagles are coming out as vanilla Chapter. Either the divergences are just "cosmetic", like the organisation, or not significant enough to be called a major theme of the Chapter, the Alpha Legion incident early in the history.

I do understand that not everyone sought out *Bang!* Chapter, nor I'm saying that your Chapter is boring. It's just... featureless.


Understandable. However, this is a blending of my two favorite chapters. As I add and refine it, I am hoping it will have a clear and respectable personality. I am not looking to create a Mary Sue chapter, but potentially an interesting one. My view is that the devil is in the details. Too many clouds the main point. Not enough detail and the whole article might as well be "These guys are a hybrid of the Raven Guard and Ultramarines", which is no fun. It is in the details and how they are presented that makes a good story. Paying attention to such details often is its own reward.

But... I do see your point. My goals for the chapter are as follows:
-a balance between covert and conventional operations. (i.e. balanced between sneaky and shooty)
-a Chapter that is known for taking offensive actions against the enemies of the Imperium. (Striking inside the Maelstrom, EOT, Warp storm regions, ect). Now, this second point will be developed as I edit and add to the IA.
- Create a believable chapter with its own distinct history that is both original AND fits well within the current cannon of 40K. Hence why I brought it to the Liber. I've heard you all are quite good at this last part. :lol:

Oh, I almost forgot:
I am still editing the pictures. I haven't figured out how to put the actual chapter badge on them.
- Look, here.


Cheers, NightrawenII.


Thanks, but unfortunately the computers I am relgated to using do not have photoshop. I won't be able to edit pictures until I redeploy and go back to the States.

Respectfully,
Blackoption

#7
Bismarxist

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Hi there, your chapter seems plausible enough and is certainly a good read. I just have a couple questions. When you say that you want your chapter to be somewhat "sneaky" is that supposed to be Raven Guardesque the orks won't know what hit them or Dark Angels deniability no mister inquisitor third company has been on patrol over there and had nothing to do with that planet blowing up? your second goal seems to lend itself more to the latter since the inquisition would probably not approve of a chapter just striking off into maelstrom/EoT whenever it felt like.

Still your chapter is, at least in my opinion, plausible enough to work.
"Did Rogal Dorn not say 'Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops' yes he did. Yet if victory requires the annihilation of an entire hive what is a mere hundred space marines? Even clad in tactical dreadnought armor they are nothing. But a thousand guardsmen can man a hundred basilisks, against whose might no hive can stand. So does the marine, the guardsman, the arbiter, the inquisitor and the mecanicus stand shoulder to shoulder. Each united in service to He on Terra, each useless without the rest."
Otto Von Ferrorin, Chapter Master of The 169th Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes

#8
blackoption

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Hi there, your chapter seems plausible enough and is certainly a good read. I just have a couple questions. When you say that you want your chapter to be somewhat "sneaky" is that supposed to be Raven Guardesque the orks won't know what hit them or Dark Angels deniability no mister inquisitor third company has been on patrol over there and had nothing to do with that planet blowing up? your second goal seems to lend itself more to the latter since the inquisition would probably not approve of a chapter just striking off into maelstrom/EoT whenever it felt like.

Still your chapter is, at least in my opinion, plausible enough to work.


More the Raven Guard then the Dark Angels. Early in their history (M32), the Raptors influenced the Black Eagles to being more stealthy.

As for striking off into the maelstrom or the EoT, I will get into the details of that in my next post or two. It is less of a whim, more of a carefully measured operation. They don't explore that space. They hunt for a specific target, do what damage they can, then get out of the region. Almost raiding chaos... but with less pillaging and more razing.

Edited by blackoption, 25 October 2011 - 02:05 PM.


#9
PyronusSouria

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Beliefs
"Forgive me, lord Astartes, but I find your lack of faith disturbing..."
-Archbishop Yesrup (Therrix Sector) M37

You're the master of nothing but evil Lord Vader.

#10
blackoption

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What is a little pop culture reference among friends? :D

Besides, evil is realitive. Particularly in the 40K universe. Everyone has their dark secrets, failures, and issues. The Black Eagles will be no exception.

And after must frustration, the update will have to wait until I find a better computer with internet access. This one is being difficult for reasons i cannot explain.

*edit*

Information added about the chapter's fleet. I still plan on adding more, but time is not on my side right now.

Edited by blackoption, 27 October 2011 - 06:26 PM.


#11
recon0321

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@blackoption

just re reading your IA i have to barrow your battalion idea brother that's such a badass idea...hopes that's ok...
Profile photo courteous of Flint13

#12
Shinzaren

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First off, I love this chapter. I don't normally read the articles I comment on before I quote and critique them, but I started reading this one and finished the whole thing. Nice work :ph34r:


"Brothers... in our arrogance we charged blindy. We shall not make the same mistake again. The darkness is not to be scorned, but respected. In our pride and rage, we forgot the fundamentals our genefather taught to us. Never again. Never shall we forget the lessons this campaign have taught us."
-attributed to Warden Rythumus Kurtz, (Chapter Master the first Warden of the Black Eagles) after the Tisiphone Incursion, M32 (estimated)

This is good, but a bit long. Not only that, but it gives away everything that the reader is about to find out.

The Black Eagles and the Raptors continued their cooperation. Initially, the Raptors left a training cadre and a few techmarines to help as the Black Eagles rebuilt and retrain their forces.


The pride of the Astartes is legendary. I would think that being retrained by the Raptors would be looked on as a sign of dishonor to their first cadre and their forebearers. Perhaps mention how the defeat broke their pride and made them accept any and all aid offered?

Once the Black Eagles could resume fighting wars for the Imperium, the Raptors detacted a company to support them. This cooperation lasted for 150 years. The Black Eagles swore oaths of honor to the Raptors. Over the millennia, the Raptor and Black Eagle chapters still maintain a strong friendship.

A company of marines is a significant investment on the part of the Raptors, especially for such a long time. What motivates the Raptors to go to such lengths to help a chapter of incompetent newbies? No offense intended, as I think that was the goal. They were new and foolish, and with the Raptors's help they became awesome.

At the time of the 3rd Founding, the Black Eagles were established to be a Fleet Based chapter that would patrol large swathes of the Ultima, Obscurus, and Solar Segmentums at irregular intervals. The Black Eagles make it a point to never repeat the same patrol route or even return along the route that it started on. For much of the Imperium's history, the Black Eagles kept these seemingly random patrol route, only deviating (if that is even an appropriate term) for recruitment purposes.

That is a LOT of galaxy you are covering, like, a lot. It would take millennia to patrol even one segmentum and you are patrolling three? Perhaps just have them focus in one area, they are only 1000 marines after all.

It was shortly after the Nova Terra Interegnum that the Black Eagles established a Fortress Monastery on the Bragg. Bragg was (and still is) a garrison world supporting the Imperium's efforts to contain threats from the Maelstrom. Located in the Sollex Passage Subsector, Bragg sits along a major supply and trade route used through Ultima Segmentum and is a common route used for Pilgrimages to the Ultramar Sector. Though lost to the Imperium for a brief period of time during the Scouring, Bragg was resettled as a 'right of conquest' reward for a Terran Imperial Guard Regiment (the 82nd Merican Fusiliers) and kept many of their Terran traditions. Between Bragg's ties to Holy Terra and its location along a prosperous trade route, the world could have petitioned itself as a subsector, or even sector, Capital world.

I like this world, it's a unique homeworld concept, differing a lot from the traditional feral/death worlds that you normally see. Well done.

Establishing their new Headquarters along the southern edge of the Northern Polar regions, Northern Watch was built around the archeological remains of an old Astartes staging area that may date back to the Great Crusade. This mountain fortification appears to modeled on the Fortress of Hera at Macragge, for much of the Architecture appears to be copied from their Primogenators Headquarters.

Well, as I dislike the Ultramarines, I can't say I approve of you basing your fortress after theirs, but that is purely personal (dis)taste. Aside from that, the homeworld looks good, and as I said earlier, I really like the idea.

Recruitment
"Strength is not the core of the Astartes. Service, Duty, and Honor is. All warriors of the Imperium are bound by these ideals. These three three hallowed words show the galaxy what you can be, what you shall be, what you will be. They are the foundation for you strength: to build when courage when if recedes from your allies; to stand firm when all else fall back; to hope even after hope itself is lost..."
- Commandant Arthor, D (The 35th Commandant of the Black Eagles)

This is a bit messy as a quote, with words out of place or misused. That said, I like the general message.

As a fleet based chapter, The Black Eagles preferred to recruit from not from feral or death worlds in the Imperium, but from the troop ships and garrisons of the Imperial Guard. The children and orphans of IG heroes, veterans, and martyrs would be given an opportunity to join their ranks. It is viewed by the Black Eagles that service to the Imperium is the core ideal of the chapter. This trait is shared by not only them, but also the families who have served and sacrificed for the Imperium. The Black Eagles pride themselves in never forcing recruitment, for they accept only volunteers. If the candidate passes the trials, he is taken in to begin training and assessment to become a Scout Initiate.

Ah, I love this idea. Again, a very unique concept for recruitment. My only questions is how many recruits can you realistically take from one planet's orphans and IG children? Or do they recruit from across the galaxy, not just Bragg?

Since basing themselves at Bragg, the Black Eagles have incorporated the Southern End into their recruitment, modeling themselves on Ultramar and the Ultramarines recruitment practices. Select chapter serfs, and even the infrequent "semi-retired" Astartes, serve as instructors, advisors and assessors for over five thousand cadets yearly. Every four years, the Black Eagles select a batch of anywhere from twenty to one hundred of the top cadets (with the majority coming from the Storm Trooper program historically). The cadets are given the trials and challenges and up to half may be selected to join the chapter and be assessed as Scout Initiates.

In 4 years you have taken 100 recruits. The compatibility rate with geneseed is less than 1%, meaning you have maybe 1 recruit that can become a scout every 4 years. I would change the time to every year, and multiple the number taken by 5-10. That would be 50-100 acceptable recruits each year, and you can figure maybe half of them will survive the implantation and training to become actual scouts. These numbers are much more reasonable for a fleet based, crusading chapter that will require a high influx of new recruits. Especially since you are talking about raids into the Maelstrom and dangerous solo missions.

The Black Eagles strongly advocate and support use of the Codex Astartes. They view the flexibility of its teachings and approach to war as central to the chapter's success in war. However, they also view the codex as an incomplete document. The Black Eagle's believe that their Primarch still wished to refine and edit the codex, but was unable after the treasonous Fulgrim laid-low Guilliman. Also of note, the Black Eagles refuse to view the Codex Astartes as anything other then doctrine of how to employ Astartes. This has caused some consternation amongst a few of primogenitors, particularly the Genesis Chapter, whom have a more dogmatic approach to the codex.

I guess I am confused. How do other chapters view the Codex, if not like this? Unless they view it with religious significance, which some do, I would think this would be the norm. I like the idea of them seeing it is incomplete and in need of additions and updates, but I would drop/change the last two sentences, since they don't really make sense.

As a rule, the Black Eagles prefer to pass credit for victories on to their allies, usually Imperial Guard Regiments. While this is puzzling behavior for many Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, it has led the Black Eagles to have unusually strong ties to many Regiments of the Imperial Guard. It is possible that this venerable chapter no longer feels the need to prove its honor and ability with publicity and glory of war. However, critics of this chapter whisper rumors that the chapter must be hiding a secret if it does not what their glories to be known. Irregardless, this policy has led to many of the younger Astartes Chapters, particularly recently founded or glory hungry chapters, over the millennia to welcome Black Eagle's aid.

I like this idea, perhaps with a sidebar or some hints as to why they pass credit? Was there an event in their past, or a historical figure/engagement that made them this way? Inquiring minds want to know!

When the Black Eagles do venture solo campaigns, they are usually strike operations in regions lost to the Imperium. Drawing on lessons learned from the Chapter's early campaigns (and mistakes), the Black Eagles have become surprisingly proficient at these normally high risk operations. These campaigns can range from hunting Eldar corsairs in wilderness space and culling Ork words to keep Waaughs in check to systematically scouring chaos worlds of all life and resources. In these operations, the Black Eagles work to weed out small problems before they develop into issues that can threaten a sector. However, the Black Eagles prefer to limit their duration these lost regions as corruption is an ever present threat. The only other time the Black Eagles conduct prefer to conduct solo operations is when they are have volunteered to purge Chapters which have turned traitor. Though a grim task, the Black Eagle have volunteered three times to perform it.

This is not a solo task. Sending one chapter to destroy another one will only result in two dead chapters. The losses incurred by two equal forces of Astartes fighting will be near 1:1. Even if you won all three times, you would win by such a small margin as to render you incapable to recovering. The destruction of a Chapter of Astartes deemed excommunicate traitorous is undertaken by the Inquisition, in conjunction with other Imperial organizations. If they ask you for help, or you volunteer, you will be fighting alongside a taskforce made up of the Inquisitor's personal forces, Guard Regiments, Adeptus Soritas, and most like Grey Knights. If the Imperium is going to take down one of their own chapters, they will want to make sure the job is done. Sending one chapter to fight one chapter is not a guarantee.

Secondly, since basing on the world of Bragg, the Black Eagles have organized two "battalions" within the chapter...
**snip**
...Only the Veteran 1st Company and the 10th Company remain independent from the Battalions.

I like this idea, the battalions are another unique approach.

Below the Regent and Warden are the Senior Council; The First Company Captain, the Commandant of the 10th, and the Battle Captains of the Battalion as well as the Magister of the Librarium, Arch-Engineer of the Forge, and the Reclusiam of the Memorial. The Battle Captains are the elected (though usually longest serving) from the Brother Captains. It is the Senior Council whom determine who will succeed a fallen Brother Captain and one of the Senior Council who will take up the mantle of Warden OR Regent when a vacancy occurs.

What is the difference between a brother captain and a battle captain?

The Black Eagles refuse to the Emperor of Mankind a god. Gods are the realm of heresy and chaos. It is for preverse gods that traitor legions fell from the Emperor's truth. Thus they view the term as an insult to Master of Mankind. They venerate him as the best example for humanity and hold close to the ideals of Great Crusade.

This is good. Its a new spin on the idea of not believing he is a god. Not only do they not believe that, but they actively despise people who do. Nice.


All in all, this was really good. If I didn't comment on stuff, its because I thought it was fine, or could be addressed later. Aside from some grammatical and structuring errors throughout, this is a very solid start. I really like the chapter as a whole, and I look forward to seeing more on them.

Edited by Shinzaren, 09 November 2011 - 04:10 AM.


#13
blackoption

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@recon:
By all means, go ahead. I'd imagine the Black Eagle successor chapters might still use that approach. While I am not planning on making any successor chapters, I'll let others use them as their ancestors


First off, I love this chapter. I don't normally read the articles I comment on before I quote and critique them, but I started reading this one and finished the whole thing. Nice work :)
This is good, but a bit long. Not only that, but it gives away everything that the reader is about to find out.



True, but I do intend to add more when I get the chance. However, real life concerns have kept me away from the computer. Deployments have their ways of squashing recreational time.

Still, this is high praise coming from you.

The pride of the Astartes is legendary. I would think that being retrained by the Raptors would be looked on as a sign of dishonor to their first cadre and their forebearers. Perhaps mention how the defeat broke their pride and made them accept any and all aid offered?


I would have thought near destruction at the hands of two traitor warbands would be enough to swallow such pride. I will relook at this point

A company of marines is a significant investment on the part of the Raptors, especially for such a long time. What motivates the Raptors to go to such lengths to help a chapter of incompetent newbies? No offense intended, as I think that was the goal. They were new and foolish, and with the Raptors's help they became awesome.


No offense taken. That was actually my point. As a younger chapter, they were brash, reckless, and prideful. The Tisiphone campaign broke them of that. I chose the Raptors for they A. have elements of the fighting style I am looking for (Ranged spec ops types) and B. I believe the Raptors to be one of more "good guy" chapters that are out there. To me, the Raptors appear to be honorable and just. As a soldier, we are taught not to leave our battle buddies behind. This extends to beyond just our immediate unit. My vision is that the Raptors recongized a chapter in need and offered aid. In turn, the Black Eagles now owe a debt of honor to the Raptors. The Executors had a similiar event in their history with the Astral Claws, hence why the Executioners came to the Aid of Huron.

That is a LOT of galaxy you are covering, like, a lot. It would take millennia to patrol even one segmentum and you are patrolling three? Perhaps just have them focus in one area, they are only 1000 marines after all.


You have a point. But the Black Eagles do not patrol the entirity of each segmentum. They are principly based out of the malestrom and from there I can see the limits of their operational range being in each of those segmentums. The Ultramarines and Blood Angels both have wide areas they are known to operate in. Plus, the resources I have suggest that crossing a segmentum takes a year warp time (roughly adjusted. yes I know time in the warp is about as effective as water colors for blind people) which comes out to 2 or 3 yearish in normal space. I would quote the paragraph and page from my Rogue Trader core rule book, but that is packed away for this deployment.

I like this world, it's a unique homeworld concept, differing a lot from the traditional feral/death worlds that you normally see. Well done.


It is based somewhat in my own upbringing.

Well, as I dislike the Ultramarines, I can't say I approve of you basing your fortress after theirs, but that is purely personal (dis)taste. Aside from that, the homeworld looks good, and as I said earlier, I really like the idea.


Appreciated. I have some more I want to add to it, but it seemed to detract from the rest of the article. I don't want to turn this IA into a tourism brochure.

This is a bit messy as a quote, with words out of place or misused. That said, I like the general message.


That quote is based on a real life speech. I will not be changing it. Perhaps the recording can also be used as an example how High Gothic has chanced over the millenia.

Ah, I love this idea. Again, a very unique concept for recruitment. My only questions is how many recruits can you realistically take from one planet's orphans and IG children? Or do they recruit from across the galaxy, not just Bragg?


I should probably still add that the Black Eagles still offer recruitment from IG regiments when they encounter them. As for how many... that answer would be "as many as meet the standard". I'll add more on that when I discuss your next point.

In 4 years you have taken 100 recruits. The compatibility rate with geneseed is less than 1%, meaning you have maybe 1 recruit that can become a scout every 4 years. I would change the time to every year, and multiple the number taken by 5-10. That would be 50-100 acceptable recruits each year, and you can figure maybe half of them will survive the implantation and training to become actual scouts. These numbers are much more reasonable for a fleet based, crusading chapter that will require a high influx of new recruits. Especially since you are talking about raids into the Maelstrom and dangerous solo missions.


From everything I read, the highest point of attrition in the whole recruitment process for Astartes is the initial cut. Do these mere mortals have what it takes. Thousands apply, few are chosen. From there, while steep, the attrition rate decreases. The candidates are screened for deficencies; physical, mental, moral, spiritual, ect. Once those are weeded out, then training begins. During training, more are weeded out. By the time implantation occurs, the vast majority of failed applicants are done and over with. Thus, only those recruits who meet the standard of the chapter actually get implanted and have a chance of surviving. I am using Sons of Dorn, the Space Wolf Saga, and Ultramarine recruitment stories from the Black Library as my main reference. I agree with this, for if implantation success was as low as 1%, then how can their still be marines 100 generations after the first when each marine only produces 2 protozoid glands (spelling) in their entire life?

I guess I am confused. How do other chapters view the Codex, if not like this? Unless they view it with religious significance, which some do, I would think this would be the norm. I like the idea of them seeing it is incomplete and in need of additions and updates, but I would drop/change the last two sentences, since they don't really make sense.


I'll edit it. The intent was that this chapter tends to "rock the boat" and challenge established norms when it comes to the codex. As an member of the Ultramarine bloodline, this might get them shunned by some of the chapters, particularly Genesis (whom are known to be dogmantic it codex applications)

I like this idea, perhaps with a sidebar or some hints as to why they pass credit? Was there an event in their past, or a historical figure/engagement that made them this way? Inquiring minds want to know!


Good. I planned on doing dropping some hints. But those inquiring minds are going have to come up with their own theories. ;-) I am interested to see what the community comes up with.

This is not a solo task. Sending one chapter to destroy another one will only result in two dead chapters. The losses incurred by two equal forces of Astartes fighting will be near 1:1. Even if you won all three times, you would win by such a small margin as to render you incapable to recovering. The destruction of a Chapter of Astartes deemed excommunicate traitorous is undertaken by the Inquisition, in conjunction with other Imperial organizations. If they ask you for help, or you volunteer, you will be fighting alongside a taskforce made up of the Inquisitor's personal forces, Guard Regiments, Adeptus Soritas, and most like Grey Knights. If the Imperium is goi ng to take down one of their own chapters, they will want to make sure the job is done. Sending one chapter to fight one chapter is not a guarantee.


valid point, but you are looking at an atrition warfare based model. We can discuss this through PM's if you would like. Military papers have been writing both ways of this subject and it would not be appropriate to post here.

I like this idea, the battalions are another unique approach.


Appreciated.

What is the difference between a brother captain and a battle captain?


point made, I should probably explain the difference. I will edit it in a future post.

This is good. Its a new spin on the idea of not believing he is a god. Not only do they not believe that, but they actively despise people who do. Nice.


All in all, this was really good. If I didn't comment on stuff, its because I thought it was fine, or could be addressed later. Aside from some grammatical and structuring errors throughout, this is a very solid start. I really like the chapter as a whole, and I look forward to seeing more on them.


Thank you for the feedback. When I have a longer moment, I will try to edit and add to. However, it might be a while before I can.

#14
blackoption

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As my deployment is ending, I am hoping to have an update for you all around this weekend.

#15
blackoption

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Though it took a little longer then expected, I have added to the original post for thoughts and review.

On a side note, it is good to be back home.

#16
Bjorn Firewalker

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Welcome home, brother. Just out of curiousity, were you a member of the 82nd Airborne Brigade? (I served a year in the 18th Airborne Corps, as a helicopter mechanic.)

Overall, the IA looks good, but you should tone down the atheism- Imperial Guard regiments are full of chaplains and commissars, each one encouraging the guardsmen to be devout in their worship of the "God-Emperor," and the guardsmen are likely to pressure their children to be equally pious. Considering the "God" part of "God-Emperor" an insult, is forcing a new Marine to question his faith and his beliefs- NOT a welcome thing in the Imperium of Man.

Also:

Shortly after the Sisters of Battle had executed the fallen cardinal, the Black Eagles turned their weapons on Sisters of Battle. Accusing the Sororitas of violating the Degree Passive, the Black Eagle commander, for lack of a better term, arrested the Canoness and her retinue. The sisters have since been turned over to my custody and the Astartes promptly departed this world soon after...

What the :cuss ?! The Black Eagles fight alongside the Sororitas to punish a traitor, and once the Sisters have outlived their usefulness, turn against a former ally? Do you realize how this sounds? This is like the US launching an invasion of Great Britain, immediately after the fall of Bagdad.

Again, TONE DOWN THE ATHEISM. The Imperium of Man is NOT the United States in the 21st century, where you can declare yourself an "atheist" and "free-thinker" WITHOUT encouraging a religious fanatic to imprison/torture/execute you on general principles.

Edited by Bjorn Firewalker, 04 January 2012 - 02:08 AM.

Wolf Scout- Catachan barking toad eggs+ Thousand Sons Marine= Fun! (Wolves of Catachan)
Sisters of Battle+ Fenrisian Beer- Inhibitions- Sanity= Trouble! (Order of the Blazing Heart Rocket Punch Pimp Magnet She-Wolf)

 

Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

 

Reasons to use the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think the Librarian Dreadnought needs Furious Charge AND It Will Not Die to beat down a Chaos-worshiping punk and his Defiler, while a Stormraven needs a Vanquisher cannon to beat down this punk's Heldrake.


#17
NightrawenII

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Welcome back. I will go with my usual bowling-ball style, so don't be discouraged. ;)

Origins
Trapped between elements of two traitor legions and losses steadily mounting, the Black Eagles forced a breakout, but just barely.
- There lies a little problem, though. Both 'legions', especially the Alpha Legion, aren't exactly known for operations in large numbers. The Emperor's Children have broken into warbands and Alpha's presence is often no larger than kill-team. Yes, they are in superior position, but entire Chapter of Emperor's Finest is still hard nut to crack.

Out of the entire chapter, only one battle barge and little over 200 marines under Brother Captain Kurtz left the eye of terror. Broken and barely functioning, the Black Eagles were hounded by traitor marines.
- Too similar to Konrad Curze, the Primarch of Night Lords.

Initially, the Raptors left a training cadre and a few techmarines to help as the Black Eagles rebuilt and retrain their forces.
- Why Techmarines in particular?

A few hulks from the Tisiphone incursion were found and searched but no survivors were recovered.
- The name is coming out of nowhere.

Home World
It was shortly after the Nova Terra Interegnum that the Black Eagles established a Fortress Monastery on the Bragg.
- This action practically invalidates everything what has been said in previous paragraph.
- Why would a Chapter like the Black Eagles go out of their way?

However, Bragg seems to be content with its current role in the Imperium as a garrison world.
- The correct term is Fortress World.

Bragg is also the location of a Schola Progenium under sponsorship of the Adminstratium.
- Administratum and Schola Progenium is run by Ministorum (or Ecclesiarchy if you want).

Recruitment
The Black Eagles preferred to recruit from not from feral or death worlds in the Imperium, but from the troop ships and garrisons of the Imperial Guard. The children and orphans of IG heroes, veterans, and martyrs would be given an opportunity to join their ranks.
- The second part of sentence is misleading and due to next sentence, superfluous.

The Black Eagles pride themselves in never forcing recruitment, for they accept only volunteers.
- All Chapters recruit volunteers, some of them just don't know how to fill a application form. ;)

Since basing themselves at Bragg, *snip* The cadets are given the trials and challenges and up to half may be selected to join the chapter and be assessed as Scout Initiates.
- No, fair and simple. The relationship between your Chapter and sponsor of the Schola is too bad. Besides, the Ministorum is part of Adeptus Terra.

Combat Doctrine
The only other time the Black Eagles conduct prefer to conduct solo operations is when they are have volunteered to purge Chapters which have turned traitor. Though a grim task, the Black Eagle have volunteered three times to perform it.
- You don't volunteer for something, which is your very duty, meaning there will be no volunteers nor asking for permission in the first place. ;)

Organization
However, the Sollex passage is a vital trade route of the Imperium and is face increasing amount of raids from both Ork and Chaos vessels from the Maelstrom (even more so with the end of the Badab War).
- Unfortunately, that's duty of Imperial Navy, not Adeptus Astartes. In addition, the ships of Space Marines are specifically forbbiden to carry ship-to-ship weaponry and are restricted to support of the planetary invasion(s).

Secondly, since basing on the world of Bragg, the Black Eagles have organized two "battalions" within the chapter. The Black Eagles are still bound by ancient oaths to patrol vast areas of space. To accomplish both missions, the Black Eagles deploy one of these Battalions (each having four companies) while the other Battalion remains to guard the Sollex passage and its neighboring sectors.
- Logical fallacy. Dividing your force into two, equally strong, halves (which is strategically unsound, btw) occurs in the case, when the commander face a threats at two locations of equal significance. Considering that's not the case of Black Eagles (~would patrol large swathes of the Ultima, Obscurus, and Solar Segmentae... ~bound by ancient oaths to patrol vast areas of space...) the changes introduced to organisation are largely unfounded.

Beliefs
It is only upon induction to the Praetorians or Nightwing, or selection as a Brother Captain does the chest piece become painted black.
- Who are Praetorians and what is Nightwing?

They have an antagonistic relationship with elements of the Ecclesiarchy.
- Go get yourself in the line... ;)

Thus far, the Black Eagles has strong relations with factions of the Inquisition.
- Impossible, because the Inquisition doesn't exist. There is merely a bunch of Inquisitors. :P

Accusing the Sororitas of violating the Degree Passive, the Black Eagle commander, for lack of a better term, arrested the Canoness and her retinue.
- He is crying at the wrong grave. Adepta Sororitas is different organisation than Adeptus Ministorum.


Have a nice day, NightrawenII.

It may seem counterintuitive but in ancient warfare, fleeing from battle was usually a good way to get oneself killed.
~ Jeffrey R. Cox - Cascading Failure: The Roman Disaster at Adrianople AD 378

 

Give the peasants neither life nor death.

~ Tokugawa Ieyasu

 

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

~ Blaise Pascal


#18
blackoption

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Bjorn: The chapter more has issue with the way the Ministorium operates then an overall rejection of the divinity of the Emperor. Although, Astartes not acknowledging (and even in some cases refuting) the divinity of the Emperor is not an uncommon thing. It is a tension point between the Ministorium and the Astartes, but its one that the clerics have trouble dealing with as they are also "closer" to the emperor then the mere mortals. The Primarchs were the Emperor's sons, the Astartes are the sons of the Primarchs... therefore its kinda hard to call out Astartes on matters of the Emperor.

While I am agnostic, I'll review what I wrote and see if I can leave it more implied.

But I digress, This chapter views the Ministorium as corrupt. The little blurb is to show how relations have deteriorated. However, no bloodshed has occurred between the two factions, yet.

Nightrawen: Off too our little dance...

"Trapped between elements of two traitor legions and losses steadily mounting, the Black Eagles forced a breakout, but just barely.
- There lies a little problem, though. Both 'legions', especially the Alpha Legion, aren't exactly known for operations in large numbers. The Emperor's Children have broken into warbands and Alpha's presence is often no larger than kill-team. Yes, they are in superior position, but entire Chapter of Emperor's Finest is still hard nut to crack."

While they have broken up into warbands, the size of the warband can vary immensely. For example, A Word Bearer host can range from less then a company to larger then a chapter (I think one Dark Apostle had a host that was near 3,000 marines in the Word Bearer series)

There is No reason to think that the Alpha Legion AND the Emperor's Children couldn't function in this matter.
But there is alot of unknown regarding the Tisiphone incident.

"Out of the entire chapter, only one battle barge and little over 200 marines under Brother Captain Kurtz left the eye of terror. Broken and barely functioning, the Black Eagles were hounded by traitor marines.
- Too similar to Konrad Curze, the Primarch of Night Lords."

I fail to see your point? As in similiar name? If so... I still don't see your point. Names are recycled throughout history and have tremendous variation. IN THIS CASE, the character is inspired by a grizzled Sergeant who trained me.

I don't see how it is similiar in plot to Curze...

"Initially, the Raptors left a training cadre and a few techmarines to help as the Black Eagles rebuilt and retrain their forces.
- Why Techmarines in particular?

A few hulks from the Tisiphone incursion were found and searched but no survivors were recovered.
- The name is coming out of nowhere."

Techmarines are vital in reestablishing an infrastructure. A chapter can fight without Librarians, Chaplains, or even Apothcaries (abit it would be painful to do so), not so without your logistical support. Fact of life.

"It was shortly after the Nova Terra Interegnum that the Black Eagles established a Fortress Monastery on the Bragg.
- This action practically invalidates everything what has been said in previous paragraph.
- Why would a Chapter like the Black Eagles go out of their way?"

Chapter's change over time... but I kinda see your first point. Perhaps I should mention that they were assigned to this region of space by the High Lords of terra.

"However, Bragg seems to be content with its current role in the Imperium as a garrison world.
- The correct term is Fortress World."

Semantics....

"Bragg is also the location of a Schola Progenium under sponsorship of the Adminstratium.
- Administratum and Schola Progenium is run by Ministorum (or Ecclesiarchy if you want)."

to quote a favored American show... "FALSE"

The Administratum and the Ministorum are two seperate branches of the Imperium. At one point, they were practically merged (i.e. Vandire Gogh)... but the resulting civil war proved that it was too much power in one office.

"The Black Eagles preferred to recruit from not from feral or death worlds in the Imperium, but from the troop ships and garrisons of the Imperial Guard. The children and orphans of IG heroes, veterans, and martyrs would be given an opportunity to join their ranks.
- The second part of sentence is misleading and due to next sentence, superfluous."

Thats more of a grammar and editing mistake that I over looked. But it states the point that there are chapters out there that don't look for death words, feudal worlds, or other low tech regions to make their marines. The original inspiration came from the Ultramarine recruiting process, from which they recruit from various Barracks and training schools throughout Ultramar.

"Since basing themselves at Bragg, *snip* The cadets are given the trials and challenges and up to half may be selected to join the chapter and be assessed as Scout Initiates.
- No, fair and simple. The relationship between your Chapter and sponsor of the Schola is too bad. Besides, the Ministorum is part of Adeptus Terra."

??? I already clarified this issue above... but to restate it. The inspiration is from Ultramar. Now, those schools are not Schola's per say... but they still perform the same function... produce leaders that will go out and improve the Imperium.

"Combat Doctrine
The only other time the Black Eagles conduct prefer to conduct solo operations is when they are have volunteered to purge Chapters which have turned traitor. Though a grim task, the Black Eagle have volunteered three times to perform it.
- You don't volunteer for something, which is your very duty, meaning there will be no volunteers nor asking for permission in the first place. rolleyes.gif "

... *scratches head* I'm guessing you've never worked in a field where death is a part of the business, for that is the only reason I can think of that would explain the previous comment.... but to explain:

Even though Soldiers are trained to fight and destroy, there are moments where a commander maybe hesitant to give an order. Often, (though not always) lower leadership may volunteer for a specific task (in this case a high risk one). Just because you have a duty doesn't mean you can't volunteer for the tougher jobs...

"However, the Sollex passage is a vital trade route of the Imperium and is face increasing amount of raids from both Ork and Chaos vessels from the Maelstrom (even more so with the end of the Badab War).
- Unfortunately, that's duty of Imperial Navy, not Adeptus Astartes. In addition, the ships of Space Marines are specifically forbbiden to carry ship-to-ship weaponry and are restricted to support of the planetary invasion(s).

Secondly, since basing on the world of Bragg, the Black Eagles have organized two "battalions" within the chapter. The Black Eagles are still bound by ancient oaths to patrol vast areas of space. To accomplish both missions, the Black Eagles deploy one of these Battalions (each having four companies) while the other Battalion remains to guard the Sollex passage and its neighboring sectors.
- Logical fallacy. Dividing your force into two, equally strong, halves (which is strategically unsound, btw) occurs in the case, when the commander face a threats at two locations of equal significance. Considering that's not the case of Black Eagles (~would patrol large swathes of the Ultima, Obscurus, and Solar Segmentae... ~bound by ancient oaths to patrol vast areas of space...) the changes introduced to organisation are largely unfounded."

First Item... I don't recall stating anything about NAVAL obligations. Orks bring raid and bring war to loyal worlds... so does Chaos... The Black Eagles respond to said raids and wars.... I don't see the issue here.

Second item: Administrative divisions can happen when a unit has to cover two area of operations that are not adjacent to each other. This happens all the time. My sister brigade has half its forces in afghanistan while the other half are assigned to security details back in the states.

This is also has precedence in the 40K lore. The Clans of the Iron Hands. The Independent Companies of the Raven Guard...

"It is only upon induction to the Praetorians or Nightwing, or selection as a Brother Captain does the chest piece become painted black.
- Who are Praetorians and what is Nightwing?"

Ah... Forgot to add them into the Organization and I should have added more blurbs about them. In Short... the Praetorians are the 1st company and the Nightwing is the Chapter Honor guard which doubles over for Chapter kill team missions.

"They have an antagonistic relationship with elements of the Ecclesiarchy.
- Go get yourself in the line... sleep.gif

"Thus far, the Black Eagles has strong relations with factions of the Inquisition.
- Impossible, because the Inquisition doesn't exist. There is merely a bunch of Inquisitors. tongue.gif"

again... semantics.

"Accusing the Sororitas of violating the Degree Passive, the Black Eagle commander, for lack of a better term, arrested the Canoness and her retinue.
- He is crying at the wrong grave. Adepta Sororitas is different organisation than Adeptus Ministorum."

... *scratches head* have you even read the Witch Hunters Codex? It pretty much states the above. Thor kept the brides of the emperor (renamed them) to be the Chamber Militant of the Ministorium. Hence Military arm. It also states that TECHINICALLY, this is a violation of the Decree Passive. But they use the loop hole that they are women and not men-at-arms. The Black Eagles just called them out on it. No Blood shed occurred, but its kinda at the heart of the issue."


Work has been heavier then expected. I hope to update, revise, and edit soon. The more feedback the better.

#19
Brother Parradin

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Very nice IA, I enjoyed it very much. Congrats on getting back in one peice, and keep the writing coming!

#20
NightrawenII

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Well...

But I digress, This chapter views the Ministorium as corrupt. The little blurb is to show how relations have deteriorated. However, no bloodshed has occurred between the two factions, yet.

I think VSM summarized this pretty well:

Seriously, we know the Ecclesiarchy is corrupt and marines don't work with mortals as much as they could. They are written specifically to make the setting dysfunctional. You're on the wrong side of the difference between a piece of good news and a good piece of news.


... and you are talking about Imperium here, violence is common (and encouraged) practise for solving problems.

While they have broken up into warbands, the size of the warband can vary immensely. For example, A Word Bearer host can range from less then a company to larger then a chapter (I think one Dark Apostle had a host that was near 3,000 marines in the Word Bearer series)

There is No reason to think that the Alpha Legion AND the Emperor's Children couldn't function in this matter.
But there is alot of unknown regarding the Tisiphone incident.

Word Bearers are one of the legions, who largely maintains their legion structure, the same apply for Black Legion or Iron Warriors. On the other hand, in the case of World Eaters, Emperor's Children and Alpha Legion there is no resemblace of legion organisation.

Like I said, these legions are the most unlikely ones to form a significant force to pose a threat to Chapter.

"Out of the entire chapter, only one battle barge and little over 200 marines under Brother Captain Kurtz left the eye of terror. Broken and barely functioning, the Black Eagles were hounded by traitor marines.
- Too similar to Konrad Curze, the Primarch of Night Lords."

I fail to see your point? As in similiar name? If so... I still don't see your point. Names are recycled throughout history and have tremendous variation. IN THIS CASE, the character is inspired by a grizzled Sergeant who trained me.

I don't see how it is similiar in plot to Curze...

Yes, it is too similar name.
History and Wordcraft are two different things, in later case has author the option of choice. Case in point, the Night Haunter is modeled after colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse Now movie, which doesn't help either.

"Initially, the Raptors left a training cadre and a few techmarines to help as the Black Eagles rebuilt and retrain their forces.
- Why Techmarines in particular?
Techmarines are vital in reestablishing an infrastructure. A chapter can fight without Librarians, Chaplains, or even Apothcaries (abit it would be painful to do so), not so without your logistical support. Fact of life.

*smirk*
Apothecaries or any medical staff, are part of logistic. And if the Chapter doesn't have Apothecarion staff... Who handles the gene-seed - storage; surgery and monitoring of new recruits; recovery of progenoids?

Chapter cannot exists without Apothecaries, Chaplains and Techmarines. Fact of life.

"Bragg is also the location of a Schola Progenium under sponsorship of the Adminstratium.
- Administratum and Schola Progenium is run by Ministorum (or Ecclesiarchy if you want)."

to quote a favored American show... "FALSE"

The Administratum and the Ministorum are two seperate branches of the Imperium. At one point, they were practically merged (i.e. Vandire Gogh)... but the resulting civil war proved that it was too much power in one office.

Eh...

"Bragg is also the location of a Schola Progenium under sponsorship of the Adminstratium.
- Administratum, not Adminstratium.
- Schola Progenium is run by Ministorum (or Ecclesiarchy if you want)."

Better?

"Since basing themselves at Bragg, *snip* The cadets are given the trials and challenges and up to half may be selected to join the chapter and be assessed as Scout Initiates.
- No, fair and simple. The relationship between your Chapter and sponsor of the Schola is too bad. Besides, the Ministorum is part of Adeptus Terra."

??? I already clarified this issue above... but to restate it. The inspiration is from Ultramar. Now, those schools are not Schola's per say... but they still perform the same function... produce leaders that will go out and improve the Imperium.

Schola Progenium is Schola Progenium, West Point is West Point and Oxford is Oxford. It's matter of incorrect terminology, a common thing in your article.

"Combat Doctrine
The only other time the Black Eagles conduct prefer to conduct solo operations is when they are have volunteered to purge Chapters which have turned traitor. Though a grim task, the Black Eagle have volunteered three times to perform it.
- You don't volunteer for something, which is your very duty, meaning there will be no volunteers nor asking for permission in the first place. rolleyes.gif "

... *scratches head* I'm guessing you've never worked in a field where death is a part of the business, for that is the only reason I can think of that would explain the previous comment.... but to explain:

Even though Soldiers are trained to fight and destroy, there are moments where a commander maybe hesitant to give an order. Often, (though not always) lower leadership may volunteer for a specific task (in this case a high risk one). Just because you have a duty doesn't mean you can't volunteer for the tougher jobs...

Except, you are missing the point here.
One of the responsibilities of Chapters is to keep an eye on their brother-Chapters; intervene, when they are led astray and, in extreme case, purge them without mercy.
It's not your duty as soldier, but duty as member of organisation called Adeptus Astartes. Plain and simple.

Second, while the inter Chapter feuds, grudges and conflicts aren't regular occurence, they are far from uncommon.

"However, the Sollex passage is a vital trade route of the Imperium and is face increasing amount of raids from both Ork and Chaos vessels from the Maelstrom (even more so with the end of the Badab War).
- Unfortunately, that's duty of Imperial Navy, not Adeptus Astartes. In addition, the ships of Space Marines are specifically forbbiden to carry ship-to-ship weaponry and are restricted to support of the planetary invasion(s).

First Item... I don't recall stating anything about NAVAL obligations. Orks bring raid and bring war to loyal worlds... so does Chaos... The Black Eagles respond to said raids and wars.... I don't see the issue here.

^_^
The text mentions only 'vital trade route" and 'Ork and Chaos vessels', it doesn't say anything about attacks on planets and thus indicates naval operations.

Secondly, since basing on the world of Bragg, the Black Eagles have organized two "battalions" within the chapter. The Black Eagles are still bound by ancient oaths to patrol vast areas of space. To accomplish both missions, the Black Eagles deploy one of these Battalions (each having four companies) while the other Battalion remains to guard the Sollex passage and its neighboring sectors.
- Logical fallacy. Dividing your force into two, equally strong, halves (which is strategically unsound, btw) occurs in the case, when the commander face a threats at two locations of equal significance. Considering that's not the case of Black Eagles (~would patrol large swathes of the Ultima, Obscurus, and Solar Segmentae... ~bound by ancient oaths to patrol vast areas of space...) the changes introduced to organisation are largely unfounded."

Second item: Administrative divisions can happen when a unit has to cover two areas of operations that are not adjacent to each other. This happens all the time. My sister brigade has half its forces in afghanistan while the other half are assigned to security details back in the states.

This also has precedence in the 40K lore. The Clans of the Iron Hands. The Independent Companies of the Raven Guard...

Emphasis of mine.
That's the point, there are not just two areas of operations, furthermore it's unlikely for more than one Battle Co. to operate in the same theatre of war. Therefore the battalion level is pointless and dysfunctional addition.

"Accusing the Sororitas of violating the Degree Passive, the Black Eagle commander, for lack of a better term, arrested the Canoness and her retinue.
- He is crying at the wrong grave. Adepta Sororitas is different organisation than Adeptus Ministorum."

... *scratches head* have you even read the Witch Hunters Codex? It pretty much states the above. Thor kept the brides of the emperor (renamed them) to be the Chamber Militant of the Ministorum. Hence Military arm. It also states that TECHINICALLY, this is a violation of the Decree Passive. But they use the loop hole that they are women and not men-at-arms. The Black Eagles just called them out on it. No Blood shed occurred, but its kinda at the heart of the issue."

Heh.
Adepta Sororitas are organisation under control of Adeptus Ministorum and Ordo Hereticus, in both cases the Battle Sisters act as Chamber Militant. What Decree Passive prohibits is the existence of men-at-arms under control of Ecclesiarchy, NOT the existence of Adepta Sororitas per se.

Like I said, he has wrong target for his accusations. ^_^


~NightrawenII.

It may seem counterintuitive but in ancient warfare, fleeing from battle was usually a good way to get oneself killed.
~ Jeffrey R. Cox - Cascading Failure: The Roman Disaster at Adrianople AD 378

 

Give the peasants neither life nor death.

~ Tokugawa Ieyasu

 

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

~ Blaise Pascal


#21
Ioldanach

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This is an interesting take on a chapter, and some of the feedback has been of value. Much of the feedback has not, however. I'll just ignore any feedback that I don't see as having any value (especially that feedback which is really nothing more than a distraction) and focus on the important stuff, as well as making my own suggestions.

If you've already made the Black Eagles as different as you want them to be, I suggest just ignoring any external push. You might provide a bit more explanation of those areas where they are different and you may not have provided enough clarity, but don't feel compelled to add things unless that is what you want to do. Sometimes differences are just cosmetic, and sometimes you have an idea that you don't want to fully articulate, but which you'd rather express through hints and clues.

On the aid of the Raptors, I tend to agree that what you've presented seems a bit much. My suggestion is to change it up a bit by having the Raptors intervening in the breakout to help defend the Black Eagles from pursuing traitor legion forces. The intervention of the Raptors fends off the enemy ships, though the Black Eagles have suffered badly. And perhaps this intervention involved some joint operations in which the Black Eagles see firsthand how the Raptors' way of doing things might be of more value than just charging blindly in to combat (which, if I read things correctly, is what the Black Eagles did in the first place - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in that interpretation). The Raptors perhaps accompany the surviving Black Eagles ships to safety and provide assistance in seeing the Black Eagles in their initial recovery. The Black Eagles might feel honor-bound to return the debt someday, and you might have further influence from the Raptors come when the Black Eagles repay that debt (which would probably happen sooner rather than later if you want it to be of seminal value to the Black Eagles). Perhaps in this the Raptors need assistance in some operation and the Black Eagles answer the call. Whatever happens there, the end result is that the Black Eagles take sneakiness to heart and incorporate it into their doctrine.

Ultimately, I think that leaving a full company behind for a lengthy period of time just doesn't seem right, so my suggestion above is intended to achieve the same end result in a manner that I think might be more realistic.

The whole idea of passing credit for their victories on to their allies just doesn't sit well with me. By and large, the Adeptus Astartes are a proud bunch. The warrior ethos practically demands that one's achievements in battle be noted. I think that the concept of having a certain level of humility works and that they might recognize the achievements of their allies, but I don't see passing total credit for victories on to others as being realistic. I think you can achieve the same result by merely describing how the Black Eagles often work alongside other forces of the Imperium and cooperate a whole lot more than other Space Marine chapters, even going so far as to consulting with the commanders of other forces and integrating into their battle plans. And once the battle/campaign/operation is over, they freely acknowledge the worthiness and achievements of their allies (while still accepting whatever accolades might come their way).

The whole turning on the Sisters of Battle thing does seem a bit much. I could see the relationship between the two being strained based on the Black Eagles' views of the Imperial Cult and their interpretation of the Decree Passive. I would leave it at an exchange of heated words or a warning between the leaders of the two forces, with the Black Eagles grudgingly working alongside the Sisters only because it was tactically appropriate, but then letting them know that they hold them in contempt and leaving on very bad terms. Or perhaps the Black Eagles gave the Sisters the silent treatment, speaking "to" them through Inquisitorial intermediaries only when necessary.

The whole debate about traitor legions is a big waste of time since you've indicated that it was "elements" of the traitor legions and not the full legions. The sizes of warbands varies and, as the various black crusades demonstrate, sometimes the various Chaos Space Marines will cooperate in large enough numbers to achieve some effective results.

The whole point about names is similarly a waste of time. The same names might appear multiple times concurrently in a chapter (i.e., it's entirely possible that there's another Ultramarine named "Marneus" or "Sicarius" or "Telion"), and this is extremely likely to have happened if we look at any organization with a closed recruiting population over time (i.e., there have probably been multiple Ultramarines named "Calgar" or "Cassius" or "Antilochus" over the thousands of years of the Ultramarines' existence). Similarly, it's highly likely that variants of names have occured, with there being a "Calgar" here, a "Calger" there, and a "Kalgor" somewhere else. The fact that there was a primarch named "Curze" doesn't in any way mean that there shouldn't have been another Space Marine named "Kurtz" somewhere else. If you want it, keep it, and ignore the white noise.

I agree that the naming of the Tisiphone Incursion is "coming out of nowhere." Perhaps a slightly expanded explanation of that event is in order.

Yes, the term "fortress world" has been used. The term "garrison world" might be a completely suitable equivalent, however, especially since the Imperial Guard is a vast organization with various names for the same things used all over the place (as Codex: Imperial Guard clearly says. Don't feel compelled to change to "fortress world."

I have to agree with the correction on the sponsorship of the scholas progenium, however. The official sources indicate that these scholas are run by the Ministorum, which is distinct from the Administratum. This provides you with an opportunity to explain the Black Eagles' issues with the Ministorum, however, as they have to undo the Emperor-loving brainwashing inculcated in those schools in order to impose their own form of brainwashing on prospective Black Eagles Space Marines.

Official materials clearly describe how Space Marine forces have often been involved in ship-to-ship battles, whether against pirates, orks, space hulks, or whatever. This was pointed out in both Badab War books and numerous times over the last twenty-plus years. Yes, the capabilities of Space Marine ships are limited and are much more suited to planetstrike type operations, but they are noted as being fearsome prospects in boarding actions.

Oddly, Space Marine chapters divide their forces all the time. I'm not sure where that critique is coming from. I suggest just ignoring it.

Yes, I'd like to see more details about the Praetorians and Nightwing (am I the only one that has a mental picture of older Robin after seeing "Nightwing"?).

I think that your point about being able to fight without Librarians, Chaplains, or even Apothecaries might be a bit off. Chaplains are probably the only ones that a chapter might do without, but Librarians provide communications, screen for psychic potential, record histories, etc.; while Apothecaries are essential in creating new Space Marines and fixing the ones a chapter has. Techmarines are every bit as essential as these. My recommendation here is to focus on the reason for Techmarines being left behind (perhaps the remaining ship(s) suffered extensive damage and the remaining Techmarines of the Black Eagles weren't enough to perform the necessary repairs.

Overall, it's a very interesting and distinctive take on a chapter. There are a few minor things that might need adjusting, but most of it is really good. :)
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Anhrathe (Eldar Corsairs): KT faction rules

#22
NightrawenII

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The whole point about names is similarly a waste of time. The same names might appear multiple times concurrently in a chapter (i.e., it's entirely possible that there's another Ultramarine named "Marneus" or "Sicarius" or "Telion"), and this is extremely likely to have happened if we look at any organization with a closed recruiting population over time (i.e., there have probably been multiple Ultramarines named "Calgar" or "Cassius" or "Antilochus" over the thousands of years of the Ultramarines' existence). Similarly, it's highly likely that variants of names have occured, with there being a "Calgar" here, a "Calger" there, and a "Kalgor" somewhere else. The fact that there was a primarch named "Curze" doesn't in any way mean that there shouldn't have been another Space Marine named "Kurtz" somewhere else. If you want it, keep it, and ignore the white noise.

Yes, these names might appear in the Chapter, but no author worth his name would do that. Why...? Because it creates confusion and misunderstandings. You don't name your Chapter Master Kalgor, when you don't want draw association with the MAC. In the same way, he should avoid any pointers to Night Haunter, because that's not his intention.

Official materials clearly describe how Space Marine forces have often been involved in ship-to-ship battles, whether against pirates, orks, space hulks, or whatever. This was pointed out in both Badab War books and numerous times over the last twenty-plus years. Yes, the capabilities of Space Marine ships are limited and are much more suited to planetstrike type operations, but they are noted as being fearsome prospects in boarding actions.

When you have space ships, then some naval combat is bound to happen, but it's not the primary concern, nor resposibility of Space Marines. In fact, during the Third War of Armageddon, the Chapters were reluctant to use their ships for anything but planetstrikes.

Oddly, Space Marine chapters divide their forces all the time. I'm not sure where that critique is coming from. I suggest just ignoring it.

Dividing forces is not my problem here, the battalion-level organisation is. I can't see any advantage in estabilishment of such organisation, because such formation is unlikely to fight as one, united force and if the battle companies fight like normal, then there is no point in these battalions.

Edit:
Btw, this is discussion forum. I'm always open to debate, so if anyone wants to disagree with me or present another point of view, go ahead. I'm not going to kill you, in fact I would welcome witty philippic. :jaw: Hovewer, throwing underhanded remarks and badly disguised insults is just shabby and dastardly.


~NightrawenII.

Edited by NightrawenII, 16 January 2012 - 01:48 PM.

It may seem counterintuitive but in ancient warfare, fleeing from battle was usually a good way to get oneself killed.
~ Jeffrey R. Cox - Cascading Failure: The Roman Disaster at Adrianople AD 378

 

Give the peasants neither life nor death.

~ Tokugawa Ieyasu

 

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

~ Blaise Pascal


#23
Ioldanach

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Yes, these names might appear in the Chapter, but no author worth his name would do that. Why...? Because it creates confusion and misunderstandings. You don't name your Chapter Master Kalgor, when you don't want draw association with the MAC. In the same way, he should avoid any pointers to Night Haunter, because that's not his intention.

This is your opinion, and it's noted. However, it doesn't marry up to the reality of names across the galaxy and the OP has already indicated why he has chosen the name.

When you have space ships, then some naval combat is bound to happen, but it's not the primary concern, nor resposibility of Space Marines. In fact, during the Third War of Armageddon, the Chapters were reluctant to use their ships for anything but planetstrikes.

Except for the Black Templars, who led the fleet actions, and the Exorcists, and all of the others whose ships fought in the space battles. Your facts are way off base with this one.

Dividing forces is not my problem here, the battalion-level organisation is. I can't see any advantage in estabilishment of such organisation, because such formation is unlikely to fight as one, united force and if the battle companies fight like normal, then there is no point in these battalions.

This is another area where your facts are off base. Look at how the United States Navy and United States Marine Corps operate. And if there are numerous examples of Chapters sending multi-company detachments to operations (the Armageddon campaign you mentioned, as well as the Eye of Terror and the Badab War), the battalion-level organization provides a framework for doing this on a regular basis. The great thing about this game is that our imagination can be set free. The limitations of your imagination shouldn't limit other players from doing the things that they can imagine.
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Anhrathe (Eldar Corsairs): KT faction rules

#24
NightrawenII

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When you have space ships, then some naval combat is bound to happen, but it's not the primary concern, nor resposibility of Space Marines. In fact, during the Third War of Armageddon, the Chapters were reluctant to use their ships for anything but planetstrikes.

Except for the Black Templars, who led the fleet actions, and the Exorcists, and all of the others whose ships. Your facts are way off base with this one.

How so...?

Likewise, the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes excelled in swift and bloody fleet actions designed to hammer a way through to contested planets where their particular penchant for planetary assaults would lend them the upper hand. Armageddon, however, proved to be something quite different.
~
Unusually, the majority of the Imperial fleet was made up of Space Marine vessels, and their role in this mixed campaign was initially unclear. Commitments on the ground led to an undermanned Space Marine fleet, and one further stymied by the need to remain close to their attendant ground forces should the need for sudden movements arise. Any determined attempt to muster a Space Marine fleet for deep space combat invariably compromised other areas of the campaign.
~
After several horrifying defeats in the early part of the war, the Space Marines quickly came to realise, however, that the almost unstoppable numbers in which the Orks were arriving on Armageddon itself was only being exacerbated by their failure to deal with the threat effectively in space. Angry at his counterpart’s arrogant dismissal of the Imperial Navy, High Marshall Helbrecht of the Black Templars restructured firstly his own men, then gradually all Imperial forces, to better fight the war system wide.
~
Helbrecht also overcame the initial reluctance of his fellow commanders to withdraw a greater proportion of their men from the ground to place them aboard the fleet with the insistence that the extra mobility such increased manpower would lend the fleet would make those same Space Marines infinitely better able to return speedily to the surface should the need present itself.
~
Even with such masterfully crafted reforms, the initial Ork assault had already pummelled large parts of Armageddon into a bleeding, smoking mass of rubble and corpses. That battle, Helbrecht and Parol agreed, was already lost. Instead, both the Marine and Navy vessels withdrew from the immediate space around Armageddon to concentrate instead on a blockade of the system to prevent Ork reinforcements. From this strategy born of earlier failure, an unexpected boon was gained by the Imperium.
~
Amongst the fleet, members of the Black Templars and Black Dragons Chapters, already experienced naval chapters, excelled beyond all others, and in their absolute supremacy acted as a fine example to the rest of the fleet of how the war must henceforth be fought.

You are correct about Black Templars, but this in no way disapprove my point.

Dividing forces is not my problem here, the battalion-level organisation is. I can't see any advantage in estabilishment of such organisation, because such formation is unlikely to fight as one, united force and if the battle companies fight like normal, then there is no point in these battalions.

This is another area where your facts are off base. Look at how the United States Navy and United States Marine Corps operate.

Adeptus Astartes are not US navy, nor US marines. You can draw a similarities, but that's all.

And if there are numerous examples of Chapters sending multi-company detachments to operations (the Armageddon campaign you mentioned, as well as the Eye of Terror and the Badab War), the battalion-level organization provides a framework for doing this on a regular basis.

Moot point.
Sending a task-force is standard method of operation for Codex-Chapter, yet the Ultramarines don't have battalions. All the operations, you have mentioned, are exception in the scale of forces involved.


~NightrawenII.

Edited by NightrawenII, 16 January 2012 - 02:33 PM.

It may seem counterintuitive but in ancient warfare, fleeing from battle was usually a good way to get oneself killed.
~ Jeffrey R. Cox - Cascading Failure: The Roman Disaster at Adrianople AD 378

 

Give the peasants neither life nor death.

~ Tokugawa Ieyasu

 

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

~ Blaise Pascal


#25
Ioldanach

Ioldanach

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The problem is that you've interpreted the OP's words to mean something, though he has already indicated that your interpretation was incorrect - he's not talking about the types of operations that you object to (yet you continue to object :) ). Space Marines don't normally conduct fleet operations since their fleets aren't normally capable of those types of actions, that being the province of the Imperial Navy. However, they most definitely conduct space-borne operations, patrolling, raiding, counter-attacking, counter-pirate actions, etc. Battlefleet Gothic rules and background make it very clear that the Space Marines are a fearsome prospect in boarding actions and I've already identified a number of examples where the canon describes Space Marines in space. Based on how knowledgeable you claim to be, I shouldn't have to post any quotes to more clearly illustrate the examples (though I'd be happy to if necessary).

As for the battalion-level organization, or more properly speaking, the division of the chapter into major sub-organizations, that's not really a problem at all. Precedent can be found in the pre-Heresy organization of the Legions, the multi-company forces that I already mentioned, as well as the larger Crusades of the Black Templars (those that far exceed the normal Codex company size). The similarities I drew with modern forces are absolutely applicable, illustrating forces specifically assigned to certain areas of operation. Yes, this concept will work differently with Space Marines whose areas of operation are orders of magnitude larger than modern military forces, but the core elements of the concept are simple enough to grasp. The entire battalions don't necessarily need to be operating concurrently for this to work, either. The battle captains (which I assume are the ones in charge of the battalions) have overall responsibility for their particular areas of operation. Portions of their battalions will be conducting operations within those areas. Other portions will be recovering from recently completed operations and/or preparing for future operations. The whole thing could be a cycle where one portion is forward conducting operations and one or two portions are back recovering and preparing. Having established areas of operations allows for more continuity and a level of familiarity and competence to grow, both on an individual and collective level. This institutionalized focus wouldn't necessarily be limiting, however, as individuals might be reassigned to the other battalion in order to allow for a broader range of knowledge and experience. Such a practice would likely be conducted on a semi-scheduled basis or with thresholds so that a battle-brother is only transferred after reaching a requisite level of expertise. And the delineation between established areas of operation wouldn't preclude operations elsewhere as the Space Marines have a degree of autonomy and free will.

The Imperial Fists are all over the place. The Dark Angels are all over the place. The Ultramarines are all over the place (even having established the Honor Company near the Eye of Terror, far from the regions of the space that the Ultramarines are normally found in). This chapter has focused on just two (admittedly large) areas. In and of itself, that is neither unrealistic nor objectionable. Perhaps the question we should really be asking is "why has the chapter chosen those two areas?" We may or may not get an answer to that question - I get the feeling that there are certain things that the OP is deliberately withholding in order to preserve a sense of mystery (anyone familiar with my own efforts knows that I'm fine with mysteries ;) ).

There are numerous examples of chapters determining to protect certain areas, though, with the relative sizes of those areas varying from chapter to chapter. There is actually quite a bit of logic in a chapter choosing to optimize its organization based on its chosen patterns of operation. In fact, the organization of this chapter might be nothing more than a formalization of something that other chapters might do to varying degrees, whether temporary or permanent, or on larger/smaller scales.

This chapter is merely an example of a chapter choosing to do something exceptional, and practically speaking, not even revolutionary or radical, but really only minor. Surely that's not unacceptable. :P

There might be minor adjustments that can be made to the chapter to ratchet things down a bit if they are unrealistic, but the core elements the OP has presented are valid. There are certainly things that have been done with this chapter that I wouldn't do for my own, but I recognize that those are subjective and remain within the realm of the possible. For the most part, there are only a few things that might be "fixed" and most of those have to do with providing better clarity rather than making real changes. Too often, "problems" with DIY chapters aren't that they "won't" work. Rather, they might require us to use more critical thinking in figuring out how they "would" work. This might require some amount of revision, but few ideas are as completely "wrong" as much of the feedback portrays.

Perhaps instead of rolling in here with a bowling ball of condescension, misinterpretation, opinion, and naysaying, we would better serve the community by going the extra mile and asking for clarification where things are unclear and providing suggestions for improvement. "This is bad" is crappy feedback compared to "perhaps you might consider trying this" or "the canon material doesn't really allow for X, but it does allow for {variation of X}." You and I have both found things about this chapter that we might do differently, and we agree on some things and disagree on others. Ultimately it's the OP's chapter, however. Once we've put forth a suggestion, our only recourse if the OP decides to do otherwise is to shrug our shoulders and accept his choice. After all, we don't suffer one iota from anything we might find "wrong" with this chapter, whereas the creator suffers if he is badgered into compromising to something that he really doesn't agree to. So you've made your points (and you and I disagree on some of those). Once he makes his decision, you should just roll with it (or ignore the chapter if you just can't bring yourself to accepting it with what you consider to be faults).
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Anhrathe (Eldar Corsairs): KT faction rules




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