Captain Idaho Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 No, they are techno-mages. I've never rated Missile Launchers unless used enmass, but armies full of Missile Launchers have invested lots of points into a weapon which is second rate against Necrons. You need a roll of a 6 just to penetrate and reduce that Quantum shielding, so you need to roll to hit with enough dice to score a penetrating hit and hope there isn't a cover save. I comprimise and use Typhoons for their awesome awesomeness and then fill my army with stronger weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I think this is the most welcome change, for everyone. Sure it makes our lives a bit harder as now we have to either win on objectives or kill all of them, but in the end it makes for a longer, more fun game IMO, and also encourages multiple builds, beforehand many people didn't feel safe without having 40 Necron Warriors and some Res Orbs to keep them going. Big time. This was the biggest whining issue for my Necron friend :D Followed closely by "Special weapons? WHAT special weapons!?" We couldn't fix his lack of upgrades, but we fixed the phase out by ignoring that rule entirely. Its about time GW followed suit B) It's a more doable proposition with open-topped vehicles. Its no more doable than if the vehicle wasn't open topped- your chances are still 1/6, regardless of what number is needed to roll it. Silencing the guns of Necron vehicles will not be easy. Wonder how much that will cost because, as I said, it's nothing the Necron general can rely on in his planning. It's on occasional saving grace, nothing more. I'm curious about this. The exact mechanics (how much the character costs, the range of the abilty, the process of activating it) will really determine the utility of the power and determine if we really need to fear it... or if its just a gimmick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I think we'll have a little fun with these Warriors, although we shouldn't forget their WBB save, 5+ I believe it was. Mathhammer time! A Necron Warrior is as tough against small arms fire (Bolters, etc.) as any other MEq. 1/2 failed saved, 2/3 failed 'WBB' = 2/6 or 1/3, just like power armour. As Warriors are cheaper than Marines, you'll be playing right into the Necron players hands by getting into a shoot out between Tacs and Warriors. Good to know before it happens ^_^ Missile launcher against AV 11 open topped. 2/3 to hit 1/6 to glance 1/6 to destroy = 2/108 + 2/3 to hit 3/6 to pen 3/6 to destroy = 18/108 = 20/108 or 18.5% Missile launcher against AV 13 open topped 2/3 to hit 1/6 to glance 1/6 to destroy = 2/108 + 2/3 to hit 1/6 to pen 3/6 to destroy = 6/108 = 8/108 or 7.4% Las cannon against AV 11 open topped 2/3 to hit 1/6 to glance 1/6 to destroy = 2/108 + 2/3 to hit 4/6 to pen 3/6 to destroy = 24/108 = 26/108 or 24.1% Las cannon against AV 13 open topped 2/3 to hit 1/6 to glance 1/6 to destroy = 2/108 + 2/3 to hit 2/6 to pen 3/6 to destroy = 12/108 = 14/108 or 12.9% As you can see, versus AV 13 open topped, the Missile launcher is only around 57% effective at downing it in the first place compared to the Las cannon. The sooner you can get them out of their AV and start dropping TFire, Whirlwind, Plasma cannon shots on them, the better. :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak-73 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Its no more doable than if the vehicle wasn't open topped- your chances are still 1/6, regardless of what number is needed to roll it. Silencing the guns of Necron vehicles will not be easy. No, the open topped means that need to roll 4+ on a glancing hit to achieve an effect and a 2+ on penetraing hit. Which means that with one penetrated hit chances are not bad that additional hits won't be required. So you Lascannons not only have a better chance of opening up the vehicle for hurt, they also have a better chance of achieving the desired effect straight away (in comparison to other non-open topped transports). Wonder how much that will cost because, as I said, it's nothing the Necron general can rely on in his planning. It's on occasional saving grace, nothing more. I'm curious about this. The exact mechanics (how much the character costs, the range of the abilty, the process of activating it) will really determine the utility of the power and determine if we really need to fear it... or if its just a gimmick. Even if it doesn't cost anything and it is game-wide, it's nothing that is going to impact the strategies implemented. Neither party can rely on a Gets Hot! result being rolled up. Nor will it be enough to put meltas or flamers out of fashion. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Its no more doable than if the vehicle wasn't open topped- your chances are still 1/6, regardless of what number is needed to roll it. Silencing the guns of Necron vehicles will not be easy. No, the open topped means that need to roll 4+ on a glancing hit to achieve an effect and a 2+ on penetraing hit. Which means that with one penetrated hit chances are not bad that additional hits won't be required. So you Lascannons not only have a better chance of opening up the vehicle for hurt, they also have a better chance of achieving the desired effect straight away (in comparison to other non-open topped transports). I believe he meant that there's the same odds of getting a weapon destroyed result, regardless of whether you've hit a vehicle with a pen or a glancing hit, or whether your gun has AP1 or they're open topped, the odds are still 1/6. The only results that change in odds are crew shaken and vehicle explodes, the rest or always 1/6 (although I suppose you can count vehicle destroyed actually, as although to get it it's 1/6, you can't get it with most glancing hits). However, you are quite right that to get an effect against a Necron vehicle it is indeed from a 4+ on a glancing hit or a 2+ on a pen, thanks to them being open topped. Of course, it depends on what the result is for the situation, against the Ghost Ark I'd be a bit miffed with weapon destroyed, immobilized and destroyed would be miles better. Likewise against the Doomsday Ark an immobilized result wouldn't be too great. The best thing is that on a pen we've got a good chance of knocking them out the sky, and even with a glancing hit we can do something. And even if you don't do great on your first pen the next pens will come by a lot quicker. I'm really looking forward to playing against these guys, that's all I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 It looks like it'll be a good idea to spread your tank busting around your units too. E.G. Instead of having two Lascannons in one Combat squaded sternguard, have one in each. Then if one unit Pens but fails to do much, the other gun will have a much better chance of taking it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak-73 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 It looks like it'll be a good idea to spread your tank busting around your units too. E.G. Instead of having two Lascannons in one Combat squaded sternguard, have one in each. Then if one unit Pens but fails to do much, the other gun will have a much better chance of taking it down. No, you have Rifleman Dreads and Dakka Preds to do the rest. Spreading Lascannons means more units do nothing if your Lascannon doesn't hit or doesn't roll a 5 or 6 for penetration. Maybe you need to mix a Lascannon sponsons pred under your Dakkas. Add 2xLC Sternguards and 1 or 2 LCs in your Tac squad and you have a spread of units that can act as can openers. If all else fails, Typhoons. However the order of attacks will be from hi S to low S, at least initially. Or you have lots of melta (Vulkan?). Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I didn't mean Sternguard specifically, i just used them as an example (A poor one, probably. :cuss ). I just meant that focusing all your long range anti tank in a few units may well lead to less Pens overall against Necrons, since a second unit can take advantage of the lowered AV if a previous unit scores a Pen. Not a big deal, but something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I comprimise and use Typhoons for their awesome awesomeness and then fill my army with stronger weapons. Typhoons and Honor Guard? Your army sounds like my dream army. Necron vehicles will be expensive, right? So is it safe to say more often than not they'll have a smaller mechanized army than the general marine army? The same amount of guns vs less targets sounds good to me. Combi-preds, yessir. EDIT: Actually, based on Marshal Wilhelm's mathhammer, wouldn't missile launchers still be effective based on cost? I'm not very good at mathhammer, but what happens to the final result against AV 13 when one factors in 2 missiles shots? The percentage is additive due to multiple shots, right? I'm sure marines can easily field more missile shots than lascannons. Though, the AP 1 aspect of the lascannon is deadly against open-topped... Just throwing out ideas, but perhaps a devastator squad will be a bit more useful now despite their cost. With the signum you get a nice BS5 lascannon shot. Or perhaps an all lascannon predator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Only orbital bombardment, melta, and longest conversion beam bracket have AP1 in C:SM, in regard to vehicles, lascannons only have +1S on missile launchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Only orbital bombardment, melta, and longest conversion beam bracket have AP1 in C:SM, in regard to vehicles, lascannons only have +1S on missile launchers. Yup, you're right. Silly me. What I said before stands though, are lascannons really worth the +1 strength over more missile shots? Perhaps a good mix of both is best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Yup, you're right. Silly me. What I said before stands though, are lascannons really worth the +1 strength over more missile shots? Perhaps a good mix of both is best. When going up against AV13 they definitely are, it's very hard to punch through AV13 with MLs, normally I'd settle for glancing at most. However, you are right, it's best to take both, reason being that you can field more MLs than lascannons, and when you strip down their AV13 to AV11 the mass ML shots will perform better than single lascannons. Use the lascannons to take down their army, and then the kraks to finish them off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak-73 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Right. But you are raising a very good point: MotF and conversion beamer is going to be dangerous to Necrons. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Right. But you are raising a very good point: MotF and conversion beamer is going to be dangerous to Necrons. Alex I feel like a complete tool right now. I love MOTFs and converted up two different beamer-toting MOTFs, and I didn't even think about using one! Sticking him into a Dev squad with a pair of lascannons and a pair of plasma cannons gives you the best of both worlds for cutting down both Arks and Warriors.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak-73 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Yeah but another use is to put him with Stealth sniper scouts into bolstered ruin. Buy Sniper Scouts with ML and camo cloaks (or maybe better yet Telion) and a TFC. Voila! 2+ cover save for your leader in a ruin. Another 5 man Scout squad with c-melta & melta bombs (&krak grenades) infiltrating to threaten/interdict enemy vehicle movement in that direction. Then fill up Elite and Heavy slots with Dreads. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 ill not be surprised to find people using minimum units of warriors, probably mechanised with those new ark thingies.. if thats the case w shouldnt be mathhammering odds vs warriors and worry about the other units out there, immortals and deathstrieks and lychguard. as ive said before an all rounder force with a good mix of high S anti tank and close combat ability should do ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak-73 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 No, as I understand it WBB or Reanimation or whatever it is called does not work if a unit is wiped out. 1 Dakka Pred kills about 5 Warriors per round of shooting. You simply can't afford the enemy eliminating your unit completely. If the rumour I heard about it is true, Reanimation goes against the spirit of MSU. If he minimizes scoring troops, the cron player will immediately lose initiative against a competitive SM army because they can threaten to explode his transports and wipe out his few troops entirely. Therefore his units with a punch will be forced to take out the biggest threats immediately; it takes away choices from the cron player. They can only react, even if they have first turn. I doesn't seem like a good idea. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 i think you misunderstand what i meant, i never said MSU i said minimum units, i.e only two units to cover the FOC. those transports look as though they carry ten models and are open topped so will be mobile shooting platforms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Immortals are now Troop choices, though. The website said it, lemme see if I can find the reference.... http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/...p?aId=18500113a Underneath the video box, the text between the picture of the six Warriors and the Monolith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Great, crons go from only one AV14 impenetrable to AV 13+living metal spam. ;) is C:SM going to do to stop it? Gunline? Tri-lass preds? Hope GW crippling prices will kill any likeliness that a properly equipped army will ever see my venue? $50 for a cap. 10 transport? Ah ha ha ha!!! Upon reflection... PA bodies with krak grenades and I:4 will be the greatest weapons to combat Matt Wards third installment of Codex: Power Creep. I guess I need to start working on getting a land speeder storm. Assault phase is were C:SM will beat crons/IG/Tau. All our bikes have krak grenades right? *goes home to check codex* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 tbh the necron dex worries me less than the GK one did.. why? becuase of initiative values Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Hope GW crippling prices will kill any likeliness that a properly equipped army will ever see my venue? $50 for a cap. 10 transport? Ah ha ha ha!!! That is what Australians are paying for Rhinos. AU $55.00. Which is currently: US $57.00 GBP £35.7 Just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Hope GW crippling prices will kill any likeliness that a properly equipped army will ever see my venue? $50 for a cap. 10 transport? Ah ha ha ha!!! That is what Australians are paying for Rhinos. AU $55.00. Which is currently: US $57.00 GBP £35.7 Just sayin' Man that's rough. Would you say real world prices influence what units are seen on the WYSIWYG battlefield? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I'd field a very different army if I had the cash to create it...as it is my only means of transport are now 1 Rhino, 1 Razorback and 1 Landraider and its taken me some time to get those together...not a lot of work for vehicle busters to do to ground the majority of my foot soldiers.... Necrons are debiliatingly slow, which will mean that they'll be struggling to win too many fights in melee without taking some punishment first. A 2 squads in tandem approach (one to shoot the other to assault..or just shoot and assault if you're inclined) should reduce them nicely and prevent any reanimations.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Hope GW crippling prices will kill any likeliness that a properly equipped army will ever see my venue? $50 for a cap. 10 transport? Ah ha ha ha!!! That is what Australians are paying for Rhinos. AU $55.00. Which is currently: US $57.00 GBP £35.7 Just sayin' Man that's rough. Would you say real world prices influence what units are seen on the WYSIWYG battlefield? Yes. Even if dudes see a fault with their army, they are reluctant to buy new things, as they already have spent a fair wad of cash in the first place, and then to address the issue, have to fork out even more. This is why, when Jonny Newb asks about units, and Bob Fluffy tells him how cool a unit is, I get cross. Jonny Newb is generally asking about on table effectiveness, but has not filter for what information he gets told. So Jonny Newb buys the unit, and wonders why it doesn't make it happen on table. Bob Fluffy rarely caveats his statements with 'I play what is cool' or 'I try to replicate the fluff on table' or 'Winning isn't my priority'. Whilst such bad advice might be addressed more easily in the UK or USA, here, the problem is a pain in the neck to fix. But dudes still shouldn't be getting such advice even in the UK or USA. If Jonny Newb didn't care about on table performance, he would not ask about the unit in the first place, and just buy whatever he thought was cool & fluffy. Right? This was why Aussies were so frustrated by the Wayland embargo thing. If I do not 'waste' my local GW's time and space by not using their gaming tables, etc. and so leave these resources free for the conversion/shmoozing of new hobbyists, I don't see why I am paying premium dollars for a service I don't use. We get Wayland stuff for 50% of Oz GW prices, including postage. B) This is why I have branched out into PP's Warmachine. Even if the minis are not quite as handsome, imo, as long as PP doesn't build this ivory tower that GW has, I'll be a happy gamer B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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