39 replies to this topic

[Brother Grius]

I was debating the worthiness of our Crusader Squad in the current environment, and I don't want to carry that thread off-topic, so I'm bringing it here.

I don't feel that Crusader Squads make the cut for a number of reasons.
A ) No Sergeant options means fewer attacks than other similar squads.
B ) Lack of grenades included in their points cost.
C ) Points cost is too high. Most other Power Armoured units have more gear for 15 points.
D ) Too few special weapons. Most other units have 3 or more.
E ) Low leadership with a higher likelihood to require a test.
F ) Low durability. Most other troops have some way to buff their durability (FNP, Wolf Banner, TDA Sergeant, Stealth, etc..)

I feel that Neophytes are fairly priced and while they do benefit our squads considerably, I do not feel they make up for our drawbacks because they come with their own balancing factors.
A ) Scout armour. The cheap wounds may help when we are taking AP, but we have seen a considerable increase in high-AP guns with lots of shots. (i.e. Venoms, Tesla Carbines, etc.)
B ) Doesn't benefit from vow. While I don't feel this is a big drawback because they have a fair cost at 10 points, it is important to note that taking Neophytes takes away from your hitting power.

What do you guys feel makes a good troop? Do you disagree with my points? Help me see the light of the Emperor if I am wrong.

This is just friendly banter brothers, thanks for taking notice.

[Th!rdeye]

In my opinion you cannot compare them to 5th edition Troops.

Because they were made so far back in 4th edition, they suffer from old rules and perks of the time. They were made with 4th edition in mind. Not with 5th in mind like later codices... So of course everything is better than us. They have much more perks and flexability. We do hold our ground with the Vows and with us being so old in rules and yet be able to do some good damage, that should be good for our future Crusader Squads. They may just become top dog (codex creep or not)

Regular codex marines also had the ability to take a heavy and special with a 5man squad. Wasn't our "thing". Just a 4th edition marine thing.

I feel that is why we have been kept a 4th edition codex for so long and FAQ'd. Because of that fact we can hold up against newer codices a little better until it is our turn. But lets face it. Templar are popular but they are not Blood Angel popular or Space Wolf popular. So they got the treatment first and we just have to wait our turn. They are not in any hurry to update us. The FAQ was just to hold us over and boost our already good traits that are not even traits. Just old wargears and prices that are in someways better than what marines have now.

But comparing points, and wargear from us to current troops isn't as valid as other current comparisons.

Sure the FAQ helped us a bit, but honestly it didn't buff Crusader Squads at all. So they are just like 4th edition Codex marines with CCWs...


But your points are very valid and i agree completely... If this was a 5th edition troop..

[Brother Grius]

That's pretty much my point. Acebauer and I were discussing the Crusader Squads in another thread, and I said they are as bad as Fire Warriors. He said they are better than Guardians and Blood Angel Assault Squads. I disagree.

I'm not talking about our -ONE- vow (because you know the others don't stack up) or the saving graces of our old book with our missile spam or veteran skills or even our MSU ability. I didn't say the whole book loses. I'm drawing a comparison of what makes a good troop.

The bottom line is our troop does not stand on its own like the others can. If you took a close-combat list full of Crusader Squads to even a casual game, you would likely do terribly.

I can compare them and am. Good, cool troops make games fun and interesting and our troops are cool but not good. So I pose the question, if anyone honestly believes that there is a troop choice out there other than Fire Warriors that is actually worse then Crusader Squads, I want to know what they think it is.

[Danny Vegh]

I can compare them and am. Good, cool troops make games fun and interesting and our troops are cool but not good. So I pose the question, if anyone honestly believes that there is a troop choice out there other than Fire Warriors that is actually worse then Crusader Squads, I want to know what they think it is.

Grechins?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Actually, Gretchin are the most point-effective unit in the game.

But on your criticism:
A) While this is a worthy concern, the other leading Troops choice has a similar problem, i.e. Grey Hunters. Granted, they can get a Wolf Guard, but you can't have everything in life.
Understandable, although you probably won't be using either that much unless you're playing uber-assaulty Black Tide lists.
C) Grey Hunters are the only 15 point Marine Troops in the game. And you have access to BP/CCW, which is much better than a Tac Marine.
D) What units are these? You get two at five, which is much better than the Tac Squads. You have no idea how annoying it is to have to have ten to get more than one.
E) That's why you've still got Rites of Battle.
F) Most of the ones you name are Space Wolf, with the exception of Feel No Pain.

A+ They're still much cheaper than scouts, and so are very, very useful for ablative wounds.

While I'm not saying they're incredible and uber, I wouldn't say they're totally worthless. They're certainly better than Tactical Squads.

[Ryld]

Give them grenades and the ability to take up to 3 storm shields on Initiates. I'd pay 16 points per Initiate for that.

[Brother Grius]

Just for the sake of debate, this is where I disagree.

A) While this is a worthy concern, the other leading Troops choice has a similar problem, i.e. Grey Hunters. Granted, they can get a Wolf Guard, but you can't have everything in life.

Yes, but consider the minimum number of attacks with Mark of the Wulfen is 3 on the charge. 83% of the time that model is as good as or better than a Sergeant.

Understandable, although you probably won't be using either that much unless you're playing uber-assaulty Black Tide lists.

I believe those are way more fluffy than Cyclone Launcher and Typhoon spam. They deserve to be more capable than they are now.

C) Grey Hunters are the only 15 point Marine Troops in the game. And you have access to BP/CCW, which is much better than a Tac Marine.

Chaos Marines are as well, and yes their lack of ATSKNF makes them a poor choice, consider that after their 35 point transport discount Blood Angels still get three special weapons and cost 15 points per model effectively.

D) What units are these? You get two at five, which is much better than the Tac Squads. You have no idea how annoying it is to have to have ten to get more than one.

Tactical Squad gets Heavy, Special, Combi Weapon and Power Weapon
Grey Hunters get MoTW, 2 Specials, Plasma Pistol, and Power Weapon
BA Assault gets 2 Specials, Combi and Power
DE Wyches and Kabalites get 3 Special weapons in a unit of 10
Eldar Storm Guardians get 2 Specials and a Warlock
The list goes on, and I have plenty of idea about Tactical Squads. I much prefer my Tactical Squads to min-maxed Initiates.

E) That's why you've still got Rites of Battle.

Fair. Having to dump even more points into an IC doesn't make our troops good though.

F) Most of the ones you name are Space Wolf, with the exception of Feel No Pain.

DE, GK, BA, SW, IG, SoB, Necrons and Orks all have ways to make their troops more durable.

They're certainly better than Tactical Squads.

I simply don't agree with that in any way. Especially since Ultrasmurfs get bolters and pistols they can actually shoot and charge if they need to. If we take bolters we can't even fight as well as smurfs.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

A) While this is a worthy concern, the other leading Troops choice has a similar problem, i.e. Grey Hunters. Granted, they can get a Wolf Guard, but you can't have everything in life.

Yes, but consider the minimum number of attacks with Mark of the Wulfen is 3 on the charge. 83% of the time that model is as good as or better than a Sergeant.

Yes, that is true. But then you're paying 15 extra points.

Understandable, although you probably won't be using either that much unless you're playing uber-assaulty Black Tide lists.

I believe those are way more fluffy than Cyclone Launcher and Typhoon spam. They deserve to be more capable than they are now.

Well, yes, but unfortunately foot-slogging doesn't really work in any marine codices. Actually, Templars do foot-slogging best in my opinion.

C) Grey Hunters are the only 15 point Marine Troops in the game. And you have access to BP/CCW, which is much better than a Tac Marine.

Chaos Marines are as well, and yes their lack of ATSKNF makes them a poor choice, consider that after their 35 point transport discount Blood Angels still get three special weapons and cost 15 points per model effectively.

I honestly hadn't considered Chaos. I'm willing to concede the point, although I'd say they're better than Tacs for the price.

D) What units are these? You get two at five, which is much better than the Tac Squads. You have no idea how annoying it is to have to have ten to get more than one.

Tactical Squad gets Heavy, Special, Combi Weapon and Power Weapon
Grey Hunters get MoTW, 2 Specials, Plasma Pistol, and Power Weapon
BA Assault gets 2 Specials, Combi and Power
DE Wyches and Kabalites get 3 Special weapons in a unit of 10
Eldar Storm Guardians get 2 Specials and a Warlock
The list goes on, and I have plenty of idea about Tactical Squads. I much prefer my Tactical Squads to min-maxed Initiates.

Note that all of those, with the exception of the Eldar, require units of ten. And the Eldar Storm Guardians have some pretty serious issues, in addition to being overpriced.

E) That's why you've still got Rites of Battle.

Fair. Having to dump even more points into an IC doesn't make our troops good though.

Yeah, I'll give you that, although I would dearly love to have Rites still.

F) Most of the ones you name are Space Wolf, with the exception of Feel No Pain.

DE, GK, BA, SW, IG, SoB, Necrons and Orks all have ways to make their troops more durable.

I was more talking just Marines, as they have the closest playstyle so it's easier to compare unit by unit. How do IG and GK make their Troops more durable, out of curiosity?

They're certainly better than Tactical Squads.

I simply don't agree with that in any way. Especially since Ultrasmurfs get bolters and pistols they can actually shoot and charge if they need to. If we take bolters we can't even fight as well as smurfs.

You can shoot your pistols and charge too. And you can take multiple special weapons at five men. I don't really see why you would take bolters.

Once again, I very much agree that the Crusader squads aren't incredibly good.

[Solid Havoc]

IG have orders

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Which don't directly raise durability. Although they can have Guard squads reform after going to ground, though anyone can go to ground.

[Brother Grius]

Sergeants are an extra 10 points. If Tactical Marines are 16, or Assault Marines are 18, why else would their squads come out to 170 and 190 respectively? We don't need a Sergeant, but 15 for bonus attacks and Rending is pretty fair.

IG get a force multiplier in their Orders. They have a built in ability to Go to Ground and then get back up to keep fighting. Some of their squads can get medics, but I confess I am not intimately familiar with which ones.

Grey Knights can take Warding Staves in basic Strike Squads. That's pretty awesome durability. I don't think Templars need a 2+ Invuln, lol, but I am of the opinion that troops should be able to hold their own.

Also, BT only get bolters. If they trade for pistol and ccw, they get a pistol, but Tacs have bolter and pistol. They can shoot once and charge if they find themselves in a tight spot. They just have much better flexibility.

Thanks for sharing your points. I was kinda hoping someone would change my mind.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Sergeants are an extra 10 points. If Tactical Marines are 16, or Assault Marines are 18, why else would their squads come out to 170 and 190 respectively? We don't need a Sergeant, but 15 for bonus attacks and Rending is pretty fair.

IG get a force multiplier in their Orders. They have a built in ability to Go to Ground and then get back up to keep fighting. Some of their squads can get medics, but I confess I am not intimately familiar with which ones.

Grey Knights can take Warding Staves in basic Strike Squads. That's pretty awesome durability. I don't think Templars need a 2+ Invuln, lol, but I am of the opinion that troops should be able to hold their own.

Also, BT only get bolters. If they trade for pistol and ccw, they get a pistol, but Tacs have bolter and pistol. They can shoot once and charge if they find themselves in a tight spot. They just have much better flexibility.

Thanks for sharing your points. I was kinda hoping someone would change my mind.

Once again, IG aren't really comparable, since they aren't MEQs. And you can only take medics in Command Squads, sadly.

Warding Staves only apply in close combat, and are very expensive.

But Tacs only have 2 attacks on the charge, and 1 normally. I'd rather have the Bolt Pistol and Chainsword than a bolter and bolt pistol.

And thank you. It's quite nice to have a calm debate.

[Brother Vader]

I'm not talking about our -ONE- vow (because you know the others don't stack up)

This is also an error. 'Abhor' is just fine if most of your points are in vehicles and CML termies or other shooty stuff.

My usual crusader squad set-up is this:
5 Initiates, 4 Neophytes, BP/CCW, Power Fist, Meltagun. 145 points.

They will either be in a Rhino or LR Phobos, which is why there's only 9 of them. The EC and Chappy have to go somewhere.
This squad does not do the heavy lifting, it is there to be a cheap scoring unit in a transport with as many bodies as possible
for the least number of points, plus the option to melta a tank or punch something with a fist if the opportunity presents itself.

There are 4 'groups' for wound allocation, making it surprisingly resilient (especially if objective camping and it goes to ground
in cover, the neos are saving on a 3++ making a 10 point model as resilient as the Initiates). The Meltagun and Fist allow the
squad to have a go at high value targets and it can throw out enough S4 attacks in CC to trouble shooty troops like tac squads.
It takes a bit more effort to kill than a MSU squad but is still cheap. Man for man it's cheaper than MSU if you max out on
neophytes, (2x5 Initiates = 160 points, 5 Ini + 5 Neo = 130 points) but you do lose flexibility and target saturation. More bodies
on the table for less points is always a good thing though.

Comparing this unit to Grey Hunters, BA assault squads etc is a futile exercise as it's not designed to take those units on or
even to act like them.

[Acebaur]

My problem with your comparison is that everything that you've listed that we don't get, all costs points, and sometimes a lot of points. Guardians are pretty terrible for their points. They have the same cost as our neophytes and yet have -1 S, T, and Armor save. Which means they die to bolters and flamers with no save. Plus compared to our Initiates they are -1 WS and BS as well. I'd say they have no place being compared to Space Marines.

Tac Marines get a Sgt who has 2 base attacks. Ok well with AAC, which lets face it, is the most common and useful vow, you get re-rolls to hit. That difference is this.
Crusader with PF on the charge: 2 attacks = 1.25 dead MEQ's
Crusader with PF after: 1 attack = .625 dead
Tac Sgt with PF on the charge: 3 attacks = 1.25 dead
Tac Sgt with PF after: 2 attacks = .833

Not much of a difference.

Tac marines do get the bolter and bolt pistol, but they only have 1 attack in CC. We have 2, and we can choose to take a bolter instead. On top of that we can take 2 special weapons at the start. Tac's have to have 10 to even take 1.

I'll have more later, I can't get my thoughts all together at the moment

[civsmitty]

Seriously? Another one of these threads? Look, we have an out-of-date codex and it will get updated. May as well save the complaints until then.

[Eliath]

+1

[Acebaur]

Seriously? Another one of these threads? Look, we have an out-of-date codex and it will get updated. May as well save the complaints until then.

Who's complaining? We are having a discussion on the effectiveness of our Crusader squads compared to other troop choices from other armies. Personally I don't think our codex is that out of date. The FAQ did great things for us and enabled us to continue to compete in a tough environment of a lot of new codices.

[DasPanzerIstUber]

I personally find it offensive that anyone could put Crusader Squads on the same level as Tau troops. Those things are awful...my brother has resorted to keeping them off the board as long as possible to protect them, otherwise they get wiped out too fast! Nothing in power armour can ever be that bad.

Honestly they work fine for me but here's my recipe:
- Meltagun & Powerfist to give them a chance against any opponent
- Accept Any Challenge vow for obvious reasons
- Stuff them inside a Rhino for protection and speed

Solid. No complaints EXCEPT I can't seem to pass morale checks so I fall back often. Double 6 every time...

Unless the point of the thread was to point out how new codices have better units?

[Trignama]

I personally don't believe you can directly compare our Crusaders to say, a squad of Blood Angels model for model or point for point, because honestly when do you ever see their squads deployed that way?

I mean at least in my area if there isn't is a Sang Priest within 6" of every infantry model within a BA army, then you as the Templar have had a good shooting phase lol.

Just throw in an IC into whatever Crusader Squad you have meant for combat, and generally keep them at 2 squads max (Chaplain in One, Champ in Other) (and I don't mean ONLY take 2 crusader squads, fill out the rest of your troop choices with shooty squads, I personally prefer 10 man drop squads) if you are gonna take a Marshal give him a command squad (I know not the point of discussion).

Mathhammer and all that is great and all, but you have to look at it realisticly as well, what are you actually most likely to face and when everything is said and done, well our Crusader squads if built right can do quite well. Just don't charge them into a 10 man squad of purifiers and think you are gonna come out on top .

Edited by Trignama, 15 November 2011 - 11:58 AM.

[Sn4k30r]

I sorry guys i disagree. i believe our crusader its ok. ok old codex no grenages but u all write down all negatives of the squad.

Now the positives :

AAC= makes them more killy than space marines? regular i win all fights vs BA,GK with a IC in squad.

FEARLESS!!!?? I love it!!!

we can build a lower cost 10 man unit initiates-neophytes?

Taking LRC-LR as dedicated transport? its perfect when used in Dawn of war.

[Acebaur]

Taking LRC-LR as dedicated transport? its perfect when used in Dawn of war.

You can't take a LR, only a LRC.

[Candleflame]

I sorry guys i disagree. i believe our crusader its ok. ok old codex no grenages but u all write down all negatives of the squad.

Now the positives :

AAC= makes them more killy than space marines? regular i win all fights vs BA,GK with a IC in squad.

FEARLESS!!!?? I love it!!!

we can build a lower cost 10 man unit initiates-neophytes?

Taking LRC-LR as dedicated transport? its perfect when used in Dawn of war.

you dont kill more space marines by rerolling ur normal combat attacks, things like more powerfist attacks, 1 extra attack with counter charge etc. are far more valuable.
Against things with very bad armour save AAC is very good indeed. And BTs are only fearless in close combat which in 5th ed is more of a drawback for spacemarines. If space marines loose combat they dont need to be afraid of getting cought. fearless wounds are really annoying and unecessary...

Edited by Candleflame, 15 November 2011 - 09:43 PM.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Rerolling all your attacks compared to getting one extra, as long as we're talking about the charge, is mathematically better if I remember correctly. It may even be better than a power fist, but I'd need to do the math on that.

[Sn4k30r]

The Crusader squad is to hit easy enemy units or small, or just hold others or objective holders for all others we have terminators i think.

I never had a problem with me CS only mb vs chaos zerkers too many attacks.

[Candleflame]

2 attacks with AAC against same Ws will cause 1.125 wounds
3 attacks against same ws without AAC will also cause 1.125 wounds but with the potential to cause more wounds...

Edited by Candleflame, 15 November 2011 - 11:36 PM.