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Index Astartes: Angels of Malediction


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#26
Hrvat

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I was more thinking about being descended from Angels of Absolution, the Inner Circle is aware of the Fallen and has a dedicated company/task force/strike force on a crusade to hunt down and slay/redeem the fallen while the rest of the Chapter is on a self imposed penance trying to live up to the Lion's ideal of bringing the light and slaying monsters that prey on mankind from the darkness between the stars. The Gates of Fire will be exchanged for the Hunt for the Fallen section or be part of it with main acters slightly shubled about.

#27
Hrvat

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I renamed this from Codicium Imperialis into a Index Astartes because of the fact that I was getting lost in my own thoughts as I was putting them to paper. What has been done till now has been saved for the future. I decided to realign my approach, because I bit more than I could chew by going straight for the big article, so now I will construct the frame work that will provide sufficient information that is Index Astartes and then upgrade it to Codicium Imperialis along the way.

To give you some insight in what was going on in my mind and what I have in store for these guys.

Follow Codex Astartes doctrines with an emphasis on "holding territory is irrelevant, all that matters is the enemy" "What good all the cities on the planet will do for the enemy if he has no more soldiers to hold them". They will have rapid redeployment and hit and run highlighted as some of their main traits. Organisation wise they are Codex, 10 companies of 100 marines but company disposition left to the preference of each individual Captain/Master. Each Company is an idividualy operating unit, when sufficiently powerful oponent is encountered several companies converege on the location. When mission completed return to the main fleet to rearm and resupply. Main fleet constantly on the move, companies operate within certain distance from the main fleet. First Company is a mix of Slayers(Deathwing) Hunters(Ravenwing + elite Scouts), each of the crusading companies has its own Veterans. Scouts are part of the 10th(reserve/recruit) company attached to the main fleet/Grand Masters household and than dispatched as needed to other companies. During the founding the Inner Circle of the "Legion" decided these new additions would have as their primary duty to carry on the Lion's/Great Crusade while the rest do their own stuff and focus on the fallen. That doesn't mean Knights Encarmine don't do their part in the Hunt. Since they switch between wilderness space and Imperium likelyhood of discovering information on the Fallen is relatively high therefore they maintain direct links to borther chapters.



Cheers

#28
Hrvat

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New stuff is in the first post :blush:

So after spending this evening reorganising my ideas here is the result of it. An IA article at 1 696 words without the sidebars. As far as I am concerned I think I have managed to put everything I wanted down to paper without complicating things to much or leaving them to bare and at the same time convey the idea to the reader. But in the end you my fellow brethren will be the judge of that.


The only part I have a problem with is Battlecry/Chapter Motto. If you have any ideas feel free to share.


Cheers

Edited by Hrvat, 07 December 2011 - 12:25 AM.


#29
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All right my fine gentlemen I have completed the Index Astartes article and can devote most of my time to painting the force in hand. Since I want this to be as best as possible feel free to comment on any aspect that you might find strange or improbable.


Cheers






P.S. Before the article is 100% visualy complete I would like to ask one of you kind souls with image-fu skills if you could onto my marines a white Maltese Cross on both shoulder pads for Crusader and black Maltese Cross on both shoulder pads for Veteran.

#30
NightrawenII

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Hello here, it looks like there is lot of new stuff, so I'm going to give it my thorough revision. As usual, don't take anything personally or too seriously, it's just a opinion of random guy on internet. :)

Origins
This new Chapter they decreed, after consulting the Emperor’s Tarot, would be known as the Knights Encarmine.
- This looks clunky, when it's in middle of sentence. Maybe; After consultation with Emperor's Tarot, it was decided that a new Chapter shall bear the name of Knights Encarmine. ???


The Kothar Directive
After days of research, fasting, prayer and consulting the Emperor’s Tarot they[techmarines] came to the conclusion
- Correct me, if I'm wrong, but isn't Emperor's Tarot reserved for psykers?

Combat Doctrine
While many Chapters of the Unforgiven are known for their stubborn nature and apparent inability to give ground, even when such an option is preferable, Knights Encarmine due to their crusading nature have adopted a different behaviour.
- That's Imperial Fists. The Unforgiven. Never. Surrender. - It looks like the same thing, but it's not. :)

In recent years assaults launched via Lightninghawk gunships, smaller cousins of the Thunderhawks, have gained in popularity.
- Just curious. Is this proxy for Stormraven? If so, I wouldn't bother. It's just matter of time before everyone receive them, like LR Crusaders...

Organisation
On the surface their organisation matches that of more Codex adherent Chapters such as the Aurora or Genesis Chapter.
- On the surface...?

Gene-seed
Though contact with the Adeptus Mechanicus is virtually nonexistent the Chapter’s gene-seed tithe is regularly delivered through one of the other Unforgiven Chapters acting as intermediaries.
- The KE have to send their Techmarines to Mars(or rather to the nearest ForgeWorld) for training per the ancient pacts with Adeptus Mechanicus.



Overall: I would like to quote a Octaguide in this instance:

Reasonable innovation is key
It has been said that there is nothing new under the sun. While this is true, this does not mean you should embrace being derivative. When writing an IA, it is important to separate your chapter from the herd while still keeping them a normal chapter. Everything that came from somewhere else, try to present it in a new way. The more places you have seen it, the harder you should try to make it a little unique and integrate it well into the IA. If you've seen it too many other places, consider leaving the idea out. Reduce your chapter to quirk form, and then think of a few other famous chapters - is your chapter too similar? How about your chapter's story, or the plot devices in it? Although IAs are often created using very old parts, it is important to clean the parts first. Otherwise the IA chokes, dies, and has to be sold for scrap at pennies on the dollar. File the serial numbers off, paint them another color, and maybe use parts from several different sources, and you'll be retired in a tropical country before you know it.



Now re-read your article... Do you see, what I see?

Another thing is, the Knights Encarmine doesn't suffer from any shortfalls, so to speak. The IA keeps on talking how adaptable they are, but it seems like everything works for them just fine without much problems.
For example, without homeworld to call their own and next to no contact with Admech, they would have difficulties to keep themselves supplied with materials.


Cheers, NightrawenII.

It may seem counterintuitive but in ancient warfare, fleeing from battle was usually a good way to get oneself killed.
~ Jeffrey R. Cox - Cascading Failure: The Roman Disaster at Adrianople AD 378

 

Give the peasants neither life nor death.

~ Tokugawa Ieyasu

 

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

~ Blaise Pascal


#31
Dosjetka

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Organisation
On the surface their organisation matches that of more Codex adherent Chapters such as the Aurora or Genesis Chapter.
- On the surface...?

I think he meant something along the lines of "if you look at the Chapter without going too much in-depth" :)

I'll read your IA sometime soon Hrvat and give you a bit of C&C too.

Ludovic

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#32
NightrawenII

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Organisation
On the surface their organisation matches that of more Codex adherent Chapters such as the Aurora or Genesis Chapter.
- On the surface...?

I think he meant something along the lines of "if you look at the Chapter without going too much in-depth" :)

Indeed, but the article doesn't go too much in depth, so it's odd remark.

It may seem counterintuitive but in ancient warfare, fleeing from battle was usually a good way to get oneself killed.
~ Jeffrey R. Cox - Cascading Failure: The Roman Disaster at Adrianople AD 378

 

Give the peasants neither life nor death.

~ Tokugawa Ieyasu

 

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

~ Blaise Pascal


#33
Dosjetka

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Indeed, but the article doesn't go too much in depth, so it's odd remark.

Not so odd to me.

If I would say that when he said "on the surface", he meant "through the eyes of someone who only knows the basics of the Codex Astartes organisational guidelines", would it still be an odd remark?

Though maybe I'm not getting the "odd remark" part :)

Ludovic

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#34
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Thanks for reading :rolleyes:

Without comments from the outside it is sometimes difficult to see that might be apparent at a first glance to an outsider.



Origins
This new Chapter they decreed, after consulting the Emperor’s Tarot, would be known as the Knights Encarmine.
- This looks clunky, when it's in middle of sentence. Maybe; After consultation with Emperor's Tarot, it was decided that a new Chapter shall bear the name of Knights Encarmine. ???


When you put it like that I will write down several possible ways how to reword that and see what rolls best down the tounge.


The Kothar Directive
After days of research, fasting, prayer and consulting the Emperor’s Tarot they[techmarines] came to the conclusion
- Correct me, if I'm wrong, but isn't Emperor's Tarot reserved for psykers?


No material I have with me tells me that it is needed to be one, though it is useful to have one to help you interpret it. Also the IA: Predator tells us Adeptus Mechanicus and Techmarines use it to determine the name of each tank.

Combat Doctrine
While many Chapters of the Unforgiven are known for their stubborn nature and apparent inability to give ground, even when such an option is preferable, Knights Encarmine due to their crusading nature have adopted a different behaviour.
- That's Imperial Fists. The Unforgiven. Never. Surrender. - It looks like the same thing, but it's not.


IA: Dark Angels contradict your statement. I allways thought it odd that both Dark Angels and Imperial Firsts have the same trait.

"With the exception of the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, the Dark Angels follow standard Space Marine combat doctrine and their dogged resistance against owerwhelming odds is legendary. In situations where even other Space Marines would fall back, the Dark Angels will fight to the bitter end rather than give ground to their foes. This is also reflected in their stubborn refusal to move in the face of the enemy, even in situations where it would sometimes be tactically beneficial for them to do so."



In recent years assaults launched via Lightninghawk gunships, smaller cousins of the Thunderhawks, have gained in popularity.
- Just curious. Is this proxy for Stormraven? If so, I wouldn't bother. It's just matter of time before everyone receive them, like LR Crusaders...

Yes and a No. As it currently stands I will be using the Stormraven model and rules to represent the Lightninghawk, when and if it becomes available to all Chapters I will just add it to the armoury. The original Lightninghawk is a set of rules I devised back when the Vehicle Design Rules came out in order to use two SF plastic toys (I am hoping that in future I will have time, money and most importantly skill to convert a pair of those based on GW SM vehicle design). It is 12/11/10 Skimmer with 10 model carrying capacity with a pair of heavy bolters and a missile launcher all for 135pts.


Organisation
On the surface their organisation matches that of more Codex adherent Chapters such as the Aurora or Genesis Chapter.
- On the surface...?

If I would say that when he said "on the surface", he meant "through the eyes of someone who only knows the basics of the Codex Astartes organisational guidelines", would it still be an odd remark?


This is what I ment. I was inspired by a sentance from IA:DA and C:DA and then reworded it

"To an ousider, the organisation of the Dark Angels is much the same as other Codex Chapters, ten Companies each of a hundred men"

"...an outside observer would find it difficult to spot any difference between the Dark Angels and a Chapter rigidly organised according to the Codex, such as the Ultramarines."


As far as I am aware the "on the surface" can be understood as "what can be discerend at first glance". I will see if others have difficulty understaing the meaning and if happens I will change it accordingly.

Gene-seed
Though contact with the Adeptus Mechanicus is virtually nonexistent the Chapter’s gene-seed tithe is regularly delivered through one of the other Unforgiven Chapters acting as intermediaries.
- The KE have to send their Techmarines to Mars(or rather to the nearest ForgeWorld) for training per the ancient pacts with Adeptus Mechanicus.


That remained from an earlier draft where there was a bit in one of the sidebars that no Techmarine has come to Mars in over 50 years and that some were starting the raise questions. I will have to insert that somewhere. I am not sure they have to sent, only that it is just hugely beneficial. Consecrators and Space Sharks are examples of Chapters that quite probably don't send their Techies to Mars or any other Forge World because they would have otherwise known to the Imperium when they re-entered the stage. My guys are just so far away and probably don't see it as eficient to send their guys to the Adeptus Mechanicus and not to mention they might have concerns of being accused of Technoheresy.


Now re-read your article... Do you see, what I see?

I had to go an check the Octaguide to see wether italics was what you were trying to suggest or was it part of the "original" article just be sure if I understood you correctly.

Are you trying to tell me that what I have writen is to similar to something (DA or BT?) or are you telling me my guys aren't normal?


Another thing is, the Knights Encarmine doesn't suffer from any shortfalls, so to speak. The IA keeps on talking how adaptable they are, but it seems like everything works for them just fine without much problems.
For example, without homeworld to call their own and next to no contact with Admech, they would have difficulties to keep themselves supplied with materials.


I guess I didn't do a good enough job as I thought. I wasn't trying to show them as adaptable and therefore superior but as being inferior and thus forced to be adaptable in order to try and be on an average footing with the rest. If you look at the organisation Chart that concept is quite nicely seen (at least I thought it was).

About Chapters having difficulties to function without contact with the Admech. I have been posponing the writing of an article for far to long that provides quotes from the Rulebook, Codex and Imperial Armour showing that each Chapter is completely independent from the Admech if they choose to be. Their forges are capable of producing everything they need (though in smaller quantities than those churned out by Forge Worlds) apart from space crafs and even then some Chapters like Ultramarines and Dark Angels even have those capabilities.

I envisioned the Knights Encarmine to have a locust like behaviour. Once they conquer/liberate a world they will hang a bit to gather supplies in water, air, fresh soil as well mineral wealth. Two forge ships as well as expanded forge on the main Battle Barge should keep most thing running fine. For the rarest materials as well as ship production they would turn to the Inner Circle.


Cheers <_<

#35
NightrawenII

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Combat Doctrine
While many Chapters of the Unforgiven are known for their stubborn nature and apparent inability to give ground, even when such an option is preferable, Knights Encarmine due to their crusading nature have adopted a different behaviour.
- That's Imperial Fists. The Unforgiven. Never. Surrender. - It looks like the same thing, but it's not.


IA: Dark Angels contradict your statement. I allways thought it odd that both Dark Angels and Imperial Firsts have the same trait.

"With the exception of the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, the Dark Angels follow standard Space Marine combat doctrine and their dogged resistance against owerwhelming odds is legendary. In situations where even other Space Marines would fall back, the Dark Angels will fight to the bitter end rather than give ground to their foes. This is also reflected in their stubborn refusal to move in the face of the enemy, even in situations where it would sometimes be tactically beneficial for them to do so."

*Facepalm*

I was looking just into Codex 4th edition. :rolleyes: Anyway, I think the last codex somewhat shifted the stubborn nature of Dark Angels:

pg. 19
In every case, the Dark Angels have fought with righteous fervour and a stubborn refusal to accept defeat, whatever the odds, and whoever enemy.

pg. 28
Their[Deathwing Terminators] resolve is without question and they have never been known to falter, no matter how fearsome the enemy, preffering to give their lives than take a single step backwards in the face of enemy.


Organisation
On the surface their organisation matches that of more Codex adherent Chapters such as the Aurora or Genesis Chapter.
- On the surface...?

If I would say that when he said "on the surface", he meant "through the eyes of someone who only knows the basics of the Codex Astartes organisational guidelines", would it still be an odd remark?


This is what I ment. I was inspired by a sentance from IA:DA and C:DA and then reworded it

"To an ousider, the organisation of the Dark Angels is much the same as other Codex Chapters, ten Companies each of a hundred men"

"...an outside observer would find it difficult to spot any difference between the Dark Angels and a Chapter rigidly organised according to the Codex, such as the Ultramarines."


As far as I am aware the "on the surface" can be understood as "what can be discerend at first glance". I will see if others have difficulty understaing the meaning and if happens I will change it accordingly.

The problem lies in the nuances. ;) In my mind, the codex-adherent Chapter refers to Chapter more or less organised according to tenets of Codex. Observe:


The Chapters that rigidly follow the recommendations of the Codex Astartes are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters. These Space Marines adhere to the Codex as the model for their organisation, identification markings and tactical doctrine.
~
Most Chapters, however, do not stick so rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down either for organisation, tactical roles or other processes. Many Chapters are largely organised according to the Codex but are further shaped by their home world and the personality of their Primarch. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels are prime examples of this.
~
A small number of Chapters are vastly different from the Codex, and owe nothing at all to it.


So, if you follow this characterization, the sentence is: "At the first glance, their organisation matches the Chapters, that are largely organised according to the Codex, such as the Aurora or Genesis Chapter." - The joke here is that your Chapter matches the category of Codex adherent Chapter even at second, third.... hundredth glance. :lol:

The 'rigid adherence' and/or 'Codex Chapter' is the key. I know that this is just semantics and I'm annoyingly pedantic... but that's just me. :P

That remained from an earlier draft where there was a bit in one of the sidebars that no Techmarine has come to Mars in over 50 years and that some were starting the raise questions. I will have to insert that somewhere. I am not sure they have to sent, only that it is just hugely beneficial. Consecrators and Space Sharks are examples of Chapters that quite probably don't send their Techies to Mars or any other Forge World because they would have otherwise known to the Imperium when they re-entered the stage. My guys are just so far away and probably don't see it as eficient to send their guys to the Adeptus Mechanicus and not to mention they might have concerns of being accused of Technoheresy.

True.

Now re-read your article... Do you see, what I see?

I had to go an check the Octaguide to see wether italics was what you were trying to suggest or was it part of the "original" article just be sure if I understood you correctly.

Are you trying to tell me that what I have writen is to similar to something (DA or BT?) or are you telling me my guys aren't normal?

I'm saying that your guys are too similar to Dark Angels... and the fact that you are reusing sentences from their lore supports my argument in rather hilarious way. :D

For example, without homeworld to call their own and next to no contact with Admech, they would have difficulties to keep themselves supplied with materials.

About Chapters having difficulties to function without contact with the Admech. I have been posponing the writing of an article for far to long that provides quotes from the Rulebook, Codex and Imperial Armour showing that each Chapter is completely independent from the Admech if they choose to be. Their forges are capable of producing everything they need (though in smaller quantities than those churned out by Forge Worlds) apart from space crafs and even then some Chapters like Ultramarines and Dark Angels even have those capabilities.

I envisioned the Knights Encarmine to have a locust like behaviour. Once they conquer/liberate a world they will hang a bit to gather supplies in water, air, fresh soil as well mineral wealth. Two forge ships as well as expanded forge on the main Battle Barge should keep most thing running fine. For the rarest materials as well as ship production they would turn to the Inner Circle.

I knew, I had to develop that idea. <_<

Yes, Adeptus Astartes have the capacities to produce everything they want/need (and I can see that topic, you sneaky ninja! :ph34r: ^_^ ). I was pondering this question for some time, that's why I said "with materials" specifically. Bear in mind that vast majority of Chapter either has homeworld, pact with ForgeWorld or is crusading within borders of Imperium, therefore it's relatively easy for such Chapter to obtain all materials and resources it needs.

However, Crusading Chapter, which ventures beyond Imperium's border is immediately in pinch. - It has no pool of resources and it is beset by the enemies. To make the things worse, the very resources they need/want are most likely in the hands of enemy. For Space Marine Chapter, this is even more lose-lose situation, because the Chapter has very limited resources in the beginning and any war of attrition will bleed it to death.

What I'm trying to say is that your should approach this situation like with the Renegade Chapter; Enemies wherever you look, allies nowhere to be found.


Cheers, NightrawenII.

Edited by NightrawenII, 12 December 2011 - 11:06 AM.

It may seem counterintuitive but in ancient warfare, fleeing from battle was usually a good way to get oneself killed.
~ Jeffrey R. Cox - Cascading Failure: The Roman Disaster at Adrianople AD 378

 

Give the peasants neither life nor death.

~ Tokugawa Ieyasu

 

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

~ Blaise Pascal


#36
Hrvat

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So, if you follow this characterization, the sentence is: "At the first glance, their organisation matches the Chapters, that are largely organised according to the Codex, such as the Aurora or Genesis Chapter." - The joke here is that your Chapter matches the category of Codex adherent Chapter even at second, third.... hundredth glance. :lol:

The 'rigid adherence' and/or 'Codex Chapter' is the key. I know that this is just semantics and I'm annoyingly pedantic... but that's just me. :P


I don't think I get it. :D

An informed outsider which is aware of the Codex Astartes (lets say an Inquisitor or another Space Marine) looking at my Chapter would see Headquarters with honour guard, Librarius, Forge, Reclusiam, Armour, 10 companies divided into 1 Vet, 4 Battle, 4 reserve and 1 scout, each of these companies made out of 100 marines and squads divided into tactical, assault and devastator duties and would probably find nothing odd except maybe markings. What such a person would not know is that a Chapter has an Inner Circle a structure within a structure and that those companies are actually made out of just one type of squad that adopts wargear based on the needs of the mission and the preferance of the marines within the company. If he looks he might notice that a company has 8 squads armed like tacticals and only one squad each with devastator and assault set up (this is just an example). That is what I am trying to say.

Do you have any suggestion for a potential rephrasing of the sentance should enough people find it odd?


I'm saying that your guys are too similar to Dark Angels... and the fact that you are reusing sentences from their lore supports my argument in rather hilarious way. :lol:


This statement is probably the best thing you could have said :lol:
That is actually what I am trying to make. Knights Encarmine are a young member of the Unforgiven and have not yet had time to develop great many of their own traditions but in a way they are trying to stick as much as possible to the Unforgiven role model which are the Dark Angels. The only difference between them and other Unforgiven (at least official ones) is that they do the "let's carry on where the Great Crusade stopped" thing.


However, Crusading Chapter, which ventures beyond Imperium's border is immediately in pinch. - It has no pool of resources and it is beset by the enemies. To make the things worse, the very resources they need/want are most likely in the hands of enemy. For Space Marine Chapter, this is even more lose-lose situation, because the Chapter has very limited resources in the beginning and any war of attrition will bleed it to death.

What I'm trying to say is that your should approach this situation like with the Renegade Chapter; Enemies wherever you look, allies nowhere to be found.


I see that I need to provide the "locust" syndrome in the Homeworld section. I think it shouldn't be more than 100-150 words.

The only resource that they might have a problem with is manpower because you actually need worlds inhabited by humans though when I envisioned it those strike forces sent into the Imperium are part of the recruitment process. They to the task set to them and on their way back they pick up recruits - thats why I wrote "wherever and whenever". I find it curious that all the resources would have to fought for. The number of inhabited worlds in the galaxy is miniscule. There is nothing stoping a Crusading Chapter pull up by an uninhabited world and gather materials or to extract stuff from passing comets or within asteroid belts.

Also these guys aren't pressed by haste or anything. They persecute their wars at the pace that gives best return between the speed, resource investment and risk involved. I think I might need to add a sentance or two about scouting vessels and squads (probably the veteran kind) sent ahead of the main force to look what lies ahead.



Things to do list:
- add the bit about no Marine sent to training due to being far away and concern over accusations of Techno Heresy
- add resource gathering and what they do with human worlds once they are "united" with the Imperium



Cheers

Edited by Hrvat, 12 December 2011 - 12:46 PM.


#37
Hrvat

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After rereading the Angels of Darkeness and Savage Weapons yesterday at work (it was a slow day at the musem) I was compeled to rewrite parts of the article, primarely the origins. Other sections carry the same idea as they did before but have somewhat been reworded to read more nicely. Also I have decided to reuse a name I came upon a few years ago when trying to write about a Dark Angel successor. The new name a think fits the character of the chapter better.

The entire article has 3 770 words which would put him in the upper middle or lower upper class of lenght and I am satisfied with that. I am aware that "Origins" is a bit on the long side taking nearly a third of the article but that is how it was envisioned with as I tried to match the IA articles of First Founding legions, giving a back story behind the founder and some of his defining traits that got carried to the chapter.


Ok guys, let it rip ;)

#38
Hrvat

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I think I got rid of the typos, added pictures and the chapter organisation graph. Now I am off to paint my World Eater Lord(story to follow in the future) as I wait for the components to continue building the Angels of Malediction.


Cheers




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