38 replies to this topic

[shabbadoo]

This thread is for the development of the Dark Angels Chaplain/Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought. Put forth you opinions on stats/options/special rules here. If you think a Chaplin Dreadnought and an Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought should both be options, elaborate on both of them. If you think that only one of these should be an option, elaborate on just the one. A working consensus should eventually develop, one way or the other, and the final vote will decide things along with everything else.

Edited by shabbadoo, 03 December 2011 - 04:58 AM.

[Brother Landrain]

A Unforgiven Chaplain Dreadnought is an Elite Choice.
I know this is different than the ForgeWorld rules.
I think that 'Chaplain Dread' rules are worthless, and not well written.
I am not a big fan of the way that Chaplain is just kind of blah.
Its a Venerable Dread that rerolls hits on the charge. Whats the point?
We need a Chaplain Dread that actually works in a 'Chaplainy' way..

Boost Morale- At any time, the Chaplain may boost the morale of one UNFORGIVEN unit within 12". Until the end of that turn the targeted unit may reroll failed pinning or morale checks.
Fearful Pressence - Every wound that an Interogator Chaplain causes in Close combat counts as 2 for purposes of combat resolution.
Inspiring Presence - At any time, The Interogator Chaplain may use his inspiring presence upon one UNFORGIVEN unit within 12". Until the end of that turn the targeted unit gains Fearless and +1 Attack.
Dreadnought Rosarius - Grants a 4++ save

Two of the abilities, boost morale and inspiring pressence, give the chaplain a company/chapter standard type effect, which in my thinking go right allong with being a chaplain, to inspire the troops.
I also thought about adding perhaps buyable abilities to mirror sacred standard effects, and still like the idea, but we have not been able to nail down those effects yet.

I went the Dual DCCW armament mainly because Chaplains ARE CC oriented types of characters, while they can and do use ranged weapons, you dont buy them to be snipers
That is also why I set theprice a little lower than a Ven Dread, closer to the Furioso Dread cost.

UNFORGIVEN CHAPLAIN DREADNOUGHT...................................150 Points
.............................................................................┌ Armour ┐
.........................................................WS..BS...S.....F.....S.....R....I....A
Unforgiven Chaplain Dreadnought...........5....4.....6....12...12....10..4....2(3)
Unforgiven Int Chaplain Dreadnought......6....4.....6....13...13....10..4....3(4)

Unit Composition:
• 1 Unforgiven Chaplain Dreadnought

Unit Type:
• Vehicle (Walker)

Wargear:
• Dreadnought close combat weapon (with built-in storm bolter)
• Dreadnought close combat weapon (with built-in storm bolter)
• Dreadnought Rosarius
• Smoke launchers

Special Rules:
•Venerable
•Prefered Enemy
•Boost Morale

Options:
• Replace storm bolter with heavy flamer + 5 pts
• Replace storm bolter with Meltagun + 10 pts
• Replace storm bolter with Plasmagun + 10 pts

May be equipped with:
• Extra armour +15 pts

May be upgraded to an Interogator Chaplain for 50 pts and gain the following Special Abilities:
•Fearful Presence (Int Chaplain Only)
•Inspiring Presence (Int Chaplain Only)

Dedicated Transport:
• May select a Drop Pod

[MadDoc]

Isiah raised this very valid point over in the DW Dreadnought Development thread and I thought it germane to this thread as well.

I thopught the vote was against the inclusion of a largely cc-orientated Dread.

Isiah was completely in the right in asking that question, and would equally be right in asking it here. The vote was strongly against a close combat oriented Dread variant (12 for such a variant vs. 22 against), so why do we have this suggestion (and the Unforgiven Deathwing Dreadnought suggestion in the other thread) for a close combat oriented Dread? Did the vote mean nothing?

The vote gives a clear indication that whatever the Chaplain and DW Dreadnoughts might be, they should not be close combat Dreadnought variants, since the vote said NO to the inclusion of any close combat Dreadnought variants. Trying to end run the vote by proposing a cc Dread under the name of one of the variants that was voted in is just plain cheap.

[martink]

Chaplain Dreadnought: statistics as normal a dreadnought, but WS & BS: 5 and 5++ invul save

145pts: Elite or Heavy Support
Multi-melta, CCW weapon w/meltagun or Plasma Cannon, CCW w/plasmagun or Twin-linked Heavy Flamer, CCW w/heavy flamer...
Searchlight + Smoke Launchers
Preferred Enemy (for all friendly units within 12")
Dedicated Transport: Drop Pod

[Brother_Darius]

Isiah raised this very valid point over in the DW Dreadnought Development thread and I thought it germane to this thread as well.

I thopught the vote was against the inclusion of a largely cc-orientated Dread.

Isiah was completely in the right in asking that question, and would equally be right in asking it here. The vote was strongly against a close combat oriented Dread variant (12 for such a variant vs. 22 against), so why do we have this suggestion (and the Unforgiven Deathwing Dreadnought suggestion in the other thread) for a close combat oriented Dread? Did the vote mean nothing?

The vote gives a clear indication that whatever the Chaplain and DW Dreadnoughts might be, they should not be close combat Dreadnought variants, since the vote said NO to the inclusion of any close combat Dreadnought variants. Trying to end run the vote by proposing a cc Dread under the name of one of the variants that was voted in is just plain cheap.

And as was also stated in that other thread, if you take the single most CC -oriented model we have (the Int Chap) and turn him into a dread, its going to have a CC --orientation to it. That vote just meant it was not to be exclusively CC, so you can't have the only weapons be DWCC. I think it would be pefectly valid though to have the dread with both long range and DWCC options.

[MadDoc]

And as was also stated in that other thread, if you take the single most CC -oriented model we have (the Int Chap) and turn him into a dread, its going to have a CC --orientation to it. That vote just meant it was not to be exclusively CC, so you can't have the only weapons be DWCC. I think it would be pefectly valid though to have the dread with both long range and DWCC options.

And yet Landrain's suggestion wasn't for a Dread with a leaning towards close combat, it was for a specialised close combat Dread. His suggestion has no actual ranged options to speak of and has practically no ranged capability whatsoever (it has short range infantry weapons mounted on its dual DCCW). Its the definition of a specialised close combat Dreanought.

Nothing you've said there, does anything to address the points raised by both Isiah and myself. Since the vote said NO to any specialised close combat Dreadnoughts, why do we have these two suggestions that are nothing more than specialised close combat Dreadnoughts with some extra shiney rules? The vote gives us the design mandate, we should at least try to work within what it says.

It makes me laugh how the Chaplain part (with all the talk of Chaplainy rules and making something unique (not just a CC Dread with some bells and whistles) that went on in the earlier thread) now seems set to be disregarded in favour of focusing on a single aspect, I-C are our "single most CC -oriented model" (which is debatable anyway) and so in Dread form they have to be CC- oriented too, which blithely ignores the fact that by making them a CC -oriented Dread we'd be going completely against, not only the spirit, but also the letter of the vote results.

Edited by MadDoc, 02 December 2011 - 12:23 AM.

[Brother_Darius]

Cool so drop one DWCC and put on a Firestorm Plasma Blaster and all is good

[shabbadoo]

Everyone can get a Chaplain Dreadnought, which is why I think this should ONLY be an Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought. These guys are somewhat more lofty heroes among the DA than a mere Chaplain is. A big crozius sounds more and more hokey to me- too "giant robot"/Dreadknight. Instead, give it a Dreadnought class Blades of Reason(something very unique to the DA). For the other arm, some sort of shooty weapons. Maye a regular DCCW option too. Not sure on that.

[Brother_Darius]

First I would argue for just the Interrogator-Chaplain dreadnought and not one Chaplain and one I.C.

Only the most revered of hero's get to become a Dreadnought. Our basic chaplains are just that basic. It's only after they have shown superior skills, do they become Int-Chap. Someone who has not demonstrated the abilities to be promoted to an Int-Chap would be granted the honor of being a Dreadnought. Besides our Int-Chap's are iconic, and have come to be a symbol of the DA. Not so the basic Chaplains.


For the actual Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought I would propose this.





INTERROGATOR-CHAPLAIN DREADNOUGHT............................
...........................................................................┌ Armour ┐
.......................................................WS..BS...S.....F.....S.....R....I.....A
Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought.......5....5.....6....12...12....10...4....2(3)


Unit Composition:
• 1 Unforgiven Chaplain Dreadnought

Unit Type:
• Vehicle (Walker)

Wargear:
Dreadnought Crozius Arcanum weapon (with built-in storm bolter) - trying to decide if this should grant anything
Firestorm Plasma Blaster (This is 2 Twin Linked Plasma Guns)



Left Arm Wargear:
• ... Replace storm bolter with heavy flamer + x pts
• ... Replace storm bolter with Meltagun + x pts
• ... Replace storm bolter with Plasmagun + x pts


Right Arm Wargear
• Replace F.P.B. with:
...- twin-linked heavy bolter + x pts
...- twin-linked autocannons +x pts
...- plasma cannon or assault cannon + x pts
...- Multi Melta + x pts
...- twin-linked Lascannons +x pts
• May also swap F.P.B for a DCCW (with built-in storm bolter)
...- may replace storm bolter as above.



Special Rules:
• Rosarius Conversion Field - (5+ Invul) One of the symbol's of the I.C.'s station (the rosarius) still accompanies him in death. The rosarius has been encompassed into the Dreadnoughts powerfield. While it does not provide the degree of protection that it did while he is in life, it does offer the dread improved protection

• Dread Liturgies of Battle rule - Using an improved vox system and the Dreadnoughts extensive sensory system the I.C. Dread can still direct battles as once did, similar to when he was alive. Once per turn the I.C Dread may designate one squad within 12" and line of sigt. If that squad assaults this turn, they may re-roll failed rolls to hit.

• Fearful Pressence - Every wound that an Interogator Chaplain Dread causes in Close combat counts as 2 for purposes of combat resolution.


May be equipped with:
• Extra armour
• Searchlight
• Smoke launchers


Dedicated Transport:
• May select a Drop Pod

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Just a quick note while glancing at this: I would keep the Crozius as a DCCW, otherwise there would be no point in taking the second DCCW.

[Brother_Darius]

Just a quick note while glancing at this: I would keep the Crozius as a DCCW, otherwise there would be no point in taking the second DCCW.

yeah pretty much. Just trying to decide if it should offer something in addition to that, like a reroll to wound or something.

[Brother_Darius]

With no further suggestions is this thread ready for it's vote?

[shabbadoo]

A list of voting options needs to be put together and agreed upon. Doing that should end up generating further, defining, discussion.

[Azoriel]

Dunno if it's too late to be throwing in new ideas, or if this idea was already voted on, but has anyone thought of making the Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought a variant of the Dreadnought Contemptor? After all, the Contemptor already carries a force field device by default. (I don't mean to negate Brother_Darius' hard work, merely to throw in a suggestion which may fuel the generation of more options.)

[Isiah]

Nope nothing wrong with throwing in new ideas Azoriel. perhaps you'd like to flesh it out a bit more.

[Brother_Darius]

Dunno if it's too late to be throwing in new ideas, or if this idea was already voted on, but has anyone thought of making the Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought a variant of the Dreadnought Contemptor? After all, the Contemptor already carries a force field device by default. (I don't mean to negate Brother_Darius' hard work, merely to throw in a suggestion which may fuel the generation of more options.)

Would love to see you flesh out the idea

[Dudds]

Everyone can get a Chaplain Dreadnought, which is why I think this should ONLY be an Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought. These guys are somewhat more lofty heroes among the DA than a mere Chaplain is. A big crozius sounds more and more hokey to me- too "giant robot"/Dreadknight. Instead, give it a Dreadnought class Blades of Reason(something very unique to the DA). For the other arm, some sort of shooty weapons. Maye a regular DCCW option too. Not sure on that.

I don't want to come across negative but the idea of a Dreadnought interrogating the Fallen seems far fetched, and if they’re not interrogating then they’re just a Chaplain Dreadnought. Interogator Chaplain is a title of Office not Honour. In Deathwing and Ravenwing armies a Chaplain Dreadnought will have limited use, be more expensive than a standard Dreadnought with the same weapon options and more than likely be less useful than Independent Character versions of both Interrogator-Chaplain and Chaplain

It seems too much like creating unique dreadnought for the sake of having one. Maybe a Deathwing dread that had some form of drop-pod DWA would fit, but for me the idea of a Chaplain Dreadnought of either variety seems unnecessary. If we go down the route of an Chaplain Dreadnought then I don't think we can call it an Intergator-Chaplain and it needs to have some form of utility.

Edited by Dudds, 30 December 2011 - 02:43 PM.

[Captain Semper]

I don't want to come across negative but the idea of a Dreadnought interrogating the Fallen seems far fetched, and if they’re not interrogating then they’re just a Chaplain Dreadnought. Interogator Chaplain is a title of Office not Honour.

I'm not so sure about that... I'd say it's both. According to current fluff any Chaplain that makes it to the Inner Circle is referred to as Interrogator. Becoming a Dreadnought is not a demotion, if anything it is a huge honor! So I say that the title remains in tact and the Dreadnought is indeed referred too as Interrogator, although it will probably not conduct interrogations personally.

Now how is this going to be reflected in the rules or if there is even a point for including such an option, I'm not the best person to say...

[Brother_Darius]

Just look at the stat differences between a chaplain and an Int Chap. Clearly the difference is more than just a title it also denotes someone who has obtained a certain level of experience and skill. They are near on par with company masters, and I think it is only someone that has demonstarted that high level of skill and experience that would even warrent being considered to be placed in a dreadnought.

The Int Chaps as much as anything else are iconic of the DA. Develope both the DW and IntChap dreads. Let Games Workshop decide if either are worthy of future inclusion.

[shabbadoo]

I don't want to come across negative but the idea of a Dreadnought interrogating the Fallen seems far fetched, and if they’re not interrogating then they’re just a Chaplain Dreadnought. Interrogator-Chaplain is a title of Office not Honour.

Indeed it is, and if an Interrogator-Chaplain gets mauled by a power klaw and only survives due to being interred in a Dreadnought, he doesn't then suddenly cease to have ever been an Interrogator-Chaplain, just as a Company Master who was blasted to meat chunks by a Defiler, and only survives due to being interred in a Dreadnought will never cease to be a "Master", even though he no longer lead a Company. Of course these are not "honorary titles". In the DA, these titles only come from service and proving oneself capable and worthy of those titles(just as it is with any other Chapter), but it is also more than that. Upon being interred in a Dreadnought, such worthies are not less worthy of their ranks all of sudden, nor have they somehow forgotten what it is that sets apart these ranks in the DA to a great degree- the purpose of hunting the Fallen. And, a Dreadnought not interrogating the Fallen? Dreadnoughts can have different arm attachments. Perhaps specialized torture device arms. A DCCW that has been modified into a literal "pain glove". The possibilities are limitless. Not that these would have a battlefield application, but such devices go to performing an Interrogator-Chaplain's duties. This fits perfectly well into the twisted morbidity of the whole 40K "grim-dark" thing, and one can practically imagine the crazy John Blanche concept art that goes over-the-top and then some on the subject.

And, not to mention that a rather more impersonal Giant Machine of Death might, just might, be ever so slightly more intimidating than a mere marine in black power armor with a skull mask? Like, a giant machine that can crush you with the smallest effort, and do so as slowly as it wishes? Chaplains are revered as it is. Dreadnoughts are icons of the Chapters. Now, combine them both into one, and then add in the extra meaning of the rank addition of "Interrogator-" to the mix. Rest assured, a Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought of the Dark Angels would also look a heck of a lot creepier than THIS, especially if it were outfitted for interrogation- a Dreadnought arm is large enough to have a whole bunch of smaller devices built into it. There are many ways that such a thing as an Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought would be made use of by the Chapter, and it would be a whole heck of a lot more intimidating than a mere power armored Interrogator-Chaplain. I can envision it very clearly.

In Deathwing and Ravenwing armies a Chaplain Dreadnought will have limited use, be more expensive than a standard Dreadnought with the same weapon options and more than likely be less useful than Independent Character versions of both Interrogator-Chaplain and Chaplain.

There is no way to make a Dreadnought work well in a Ravenwing force that is worse in Assault than a Tactical Squad? I very much disagree. If you don't mean with regard to the game, but just operationally(i.e. fluff reasons), as in Dreadnoughts don't move as fast as bikes/land speeders, well, that is kind of stating the obvious. In a combined force, any lesser mobile units fielded in support of the Ravenwing might be held in Reserve and Drop Podded in on their position(s), or just be deployed to hold a position. Mentioning an army build/usage which very purposely doesn't work all that well together isn't much of an argument against a unit, when the unit in question works quite well with nearly every other army build that exists.

As to a Deathwing Army, a standard Dreadnought will have lower WS, BS, not have better armor and/or an invulnerable save perhaps, and not be Venerable, let alone also likely have some other Special Rules(combined this is a HUGE benefit), so the more expensive Interrogator-Dreadnought actually is more efficient and harder to kill. And yes, you gotta pay for that, but you don't have to if you don't want to. A player can always go for "cheaper and more". The existence of such a unit as an Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought doesn't prevent anyone from doing that. It is just an added unit that plays upon the uniqueness of the Dark Angels background, which is what a variant codex should make a decent effort of doing in the first place. Not that an Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought dovetails perfectly with the purpose of the Deathwing either.

So, If I have to choose between a Chaplain Dreadnought that anybody can already take(including the Dark Angels) and an Interrogator-Chaplain Dreadnought that only the Dark Angels could take, the choice for me is an obvious one.

Edited by shabbadoo, 31 December 2011 - 12:42 AM.

[Brother Degas]

aggghhhhhh big post!!!

[Brother Landrain]

The Chaplain Dreadnought from the Forgeworld rules is... underwhelming to say the least...

I think that is more because it is older rules, made today I think they would definately enhance it some.
The Rosarius Save, Preferred Enemy, some kind of leadership bubble effect.

An Interogator-Chaplain Themed Dread has so much potential for interesting rules.

And it should be costly, but we also need to be wary against making it cost too much.

I made my suggestion on page one,

and sorry to say, but any type of Chaplain/Int Chaplain Dread SHOULD be Close Combat Oriented.

Thats what chaplains DO.

CLOSE COMBAT...

I do not see very many Chaplains hanging out with the Devastator Squads, they just do not roll like that.

[shabbadoo]

aggghhhhhh big post!!!

Hehe. Sorry about that.

and sorry to say, but any type of Chaplain/Int Chaplain Dread SHOULD be Close Combat Oriented.

Thats what chaplains DO.

I don't think anybody can disagree with that, but it is about the extent of the orientation. I don't think there should be a twin-shooty arms option at all. One arm, the left, should only be close combat oriented(likely where any specialty DCCW would be), with the right arm having options for shooty weapons and maybe a second close combat weapon. I think we need more ideas for specialty close combat weapons in particular. DCCW all around is just kind of boring, but we don't need to go all Blood Angels with them either. Just one specialty DCCW type weapon would be good enough I think.

I think the Liturgies of Battle rule can be tweaked to not be a bubble, nor be something that designates a unit each turn either. How about this?
• Dread Liturgies of Battle rule- As in its normal life as a marine, an I-C Dread continues to be an inspiring presence upon the battlefield. As such, it is still able to influence the fervor of nearby units similar to how it once did. On any turn in which the I-C Dread charges into close combat, it and any Dark Angels units that also charge into the same close combat may re-roll failed "to hit" rolls in the first turn.
That keeps things from just being plain cheesy(and therefore more expensive), but still makes the I-C Dread influential based on proximity. Thoughts?

Edited by shabbadoo, 31 December 2011 - 03:59 AM.

[MadDoc]

and sorry to say, but any type of Chaplain/Int Chaplain Dread SHOULD be Close Combat Oriented.

Its a pity that goes directly against the will of the vote then isn't it? (Nor does it hold true for GW's own Chaplain Dreadnought.)

Or is it ok to ignore the bits of the votes we don't like now?

Edited by MadDoc, 31 December 2011 - 08:44 AM.

[Brother Landrain]

and sorry to say, but any type of Chaplain/Int Chaplain Dread SHOULD be Close Combat Oriented.
Thats what chaplains DO.

I don't think anybody can disagree with that

Yeah... you would THINK so... but then again..
Such Fluffy Chaplain support for those Devastator Squads...

I think the Liturgies of Battle rule can be tweaked to not be a bubble, nor be something that designates a unit each turn either. How about this?
• Dread Liturgies of Battle rule- As in its normal life as a marine, an I-C Dread continues to be an inspiring presence upon the battlefield. As such, it is still able to influence the fervor of nearby units similar to how it once did. On any turn in which the I-C Dread charges into close combat, it and any Dark Angels units that also charge into the same close combat may re-roll failed "to hit" rolls in the first turn.
That keeps things from just being plain cheesy(and therefore more expensive), but still makes the I-C Dread influential based on proximity. Thoughts?

You mean something like...

• Boost Morale- At any time, the Chaplain may boost the morale of one UNFORGIVEN unit within 12". Until the end of that turn the targeted unit may reroll failed pinning or morale checks.
• Inspiring Presence - At any time, The Interogator Chaplain may use his inspiring presence upon one UNFORGIVEN unit within 12". Until the end of that turn the targeted unit gains Fearless and +1 Attack.