31 replies to this topic

[Kaldoth]

Well, I'm putting together a Raven Guard army focused on high mobility and close combat (obviously ) I was looking at the viability of landspeeders for tank hunting power. A squadron of three landspeeders with MMs seems like a highly mobile base of explosive firepower, but at the same time I wonder if they would bee to fragile to do any good. The Typhoon Launchers are also viable, but don't pack quite the punch needed to take out heavier targets. Are speeders any good for this role? And what build would you recommend if so? Or am I better off keeping them for troop killing?

Edit: and on the note of troop killing, how effective are AC toting speeders?

Cheers,
-Kal

Edited by Kaldoth, 12 December 2011 - 04:00 AM.

[greatcrusade08]

given that MM are most effective at under 12" theres a turn where they are at the mercy of enemies guns.. you could DS them i suppose.
typhoons are very popular choices, range helps.

for raven guard you should consider land speeder storms and scouts.
the melta torpedos are proving effective for many people at the moment

[Kaldoth]

I looked at the LSS but given you waste an entire FA slot on a single land speeder, and the list im making is for the 2000 pt bracket, im disinclined to take one, as it lacks firepower and I have no need for it given that my scouts can already infiltrate

Edited by Kaldoth, 12 December 2011 - 04:27 AM.

[Hellios]

I looked at the LSS but given you waste an entire FA slot on a single land speeder, and the list im making is for the 2000 pt bracket, im disinclined to take one, as it lacks firepower and I have no need for it given that my scouts can already infiltrate

Hmmm well the thing is the storm is good when thing go wrong...

For example you come against an army that uses it's own infiltrators or some other doo dad to stop you from infiltrating... at least anywhere useful...

It can also really mess up deep striking armies... One army has no choice but to deep strike... A number of builds often rely on deep strike... Deathwing and DoA lists. It can take a MM just like a MM speeder... It can scout... meaning if you go first you will be able to get into MM range and fire first turn... If you go second it can Out flank with 2/3 chance of coming on the side you want! It can then threaten with 2d6 armor pen up to 24 inches in... So half the board if you play on a 4 X 4.

The real advantage is the scouts it carries... The sgt can be given a combi-melta... you can add melta bombs... some people like to take a fist... Remember that scout move? Yeah that scout + being fast + open topped means you can get a first turn charge... Jump out and fire combi-melta... if the tank is still there you can assault it and melta bomb/power fist it... and being the first turn it hasn't moved so you auto hit. The land speeder can fire at the same target or a different one depending on what targets are available and what damage result you need. If you have immobilized that Land Raider that might be enough, if you need it to be at least immobilized and don't trust the scouts to do that in combat then fire the multi-melta as well.

Lacking high priority armored targets? That's ok! You want to focus on mobility? Then cripple the enemies transports... Thats one more squad sitting around in their deployment zone! You want to focus on close combat? You need to survive the shooting first! Maybe those scouts can assault the devastator squad! They might not win (Although a sgt with a power fist will even things out.) but they will likely hold them in combat for at least one round denying them shots in the all important first turn or two.

I do like typhoons... They have the range and speed to stay out of range of most threats... They have multiple shots... good strength and AP meaning they can pop marines and cause ID in a lot of cases... If you fight against a tide of orks or nids who might not even have tanks... you can frag them... You should have a way to deal with land raiders elsewhere...

I'm not saying you must take a storm but they are good when used properly. Have you ever seen a BA carpark list Razorbacks and predators all parked together at the start of the game? Ever seen what happens when that player loses 3 of his tanks to a squad of scouts and their transport in the first turn? They start to worry... They are already behind and worrying means they will likely make mistakes. You don't get first turn? Outflanking melta-death can also cause people to worry and little distractions can make a big difference... I have a lot of experience with this in the form of Wolf Scouts.

The storm isn't ideal for a brute list... but it is good for a smart list... If you are taking scouts and going to rely on fragile units and close combat (Things marines are not famous for.) you need to play smart... Like I say you don't need one but don't just think of it in terms of unit X will kill XXX because by that definition rhinos are pointless, think about the additional bonuses it can give... Need a last turn objective grab after having your squad wiped out? The storm might be able to help... Want to mess around with the enemies plan so he no longer knows what to do? Yeah that might save a few of your guys lives.

[maturin]

Short answer: speeders are good anti tank.


Long answer: The kind you want will depend on the rest of your armylist and the kinds of tanks you want them to go after. You've already identified the potential flaws of the various types, so here's my quick analysis.


LS + MM: Great at taking down AV13/14, but fragile and may be shot down before getting in range. Best used on terrain-heavy tables or coming in from reserve/outflanking. Expect them to die after melta-ing something. You'll probably want some more durable anti-tank firepower in the rest of your list.

LS + Typhoon: Good if the speeders are your primary anti-tank in the list, as they are more survivable. Best shooting at AV10-12. Secondary anti-horde capability. You'll need mobile melta elsewhere in your armylist.

LS + AC: Combines the so-so antitank of the Typhoon with the range drawback of the MM - I haven't seen one fielded in 5th ed. Getting within small arms range is very bad for a speeder. If you want anti-infantry capability as a backup, then a HF on any speeder as a 2nd weapon is popular and effective.

LSS is a bit of a different beast - if you want to alpha strike early on or seize objectives later on, then the LSS offers something your other speeders cannot. But for pure tank hunting, the other choices will be more reliable.


Knowing what else you're considering in your list will help us narrow the possibilities.

Edited by maturin, 12 December 2011 - 06:21 AM.

[spartan249]

Speeders definitely fill this role quite well. I don't think the Assault Cannon is a good weapon choice because of two reasons: It's expensive, and it doesn't ignore cover. I think the most efficient use of speeders in a close quarters army is with Multi-melta/Heavy Flamer. This gives you the option of going after vehicular targets or going after entrenched infantry, and all this capability is provided for a modest cost on your part.

If you want lighter anti-vehicle firepower with anti-infantry capabilities as well, HBolter/TML speeders are your #1 choice for both weapon range, weapon mobility, and diversity of potential targets. Like any other speeder, you have to be very aware of cover and virtual target isolation, but with the long range, you have a much easier time achieving the soft defenses for your Typhoons then for your MM/HF speeders.

I won't lie, they are fragile, but if you bring the right units in the rest of your list and keep your speeders hugging cover, you'll find them more then resilient enough to do their job.

[Kaldoth]

Well, my list is nowhere near complete as of right now. Currently my other choices are Shrike in the HQ slot, a five man vanguard squad with packs/pws as his retinue to take up one FA slot, two packless assault squads with pods and a ten man scout sniper team with a counts as Telion as troops. I was thinking of a devastator squad as a HS support choice and the speeders for one more FA slot, possibly two squadrons of cheap speeders to fill all three FA slots.

-Kal

[maturin]

Unfortunately I believe packless assault squads are still FA choices with Shrike as an HQ. I think you need Shadow Captain Korvydae to make assault squads troops (but don't have codex on hand to double check).

It looks like you're assembling a fluffy force, so I'd recommend exchanging the vanguard for a command squad with jump packs. You get pretty much the same damage output, increased survivability, and you retain your valuable FA slots. Then you can take one squadron of typhoons, one squadron of MM/HF, and a third of whatever you feel your playstyle will benefit from.

Devastators would be a good complement to the speeders as you can "reach out and touch someone". If you load up with ML devs then I'd say you should go with two squadrons of MM/HF or MM/MM speeders to maximize your mobile melta.

[Kaldoth]

Unfortunately I believe packless assault squads are still FA choices with Shrike as an HQ. I think you need Shadow Captain Korvydae to make assault squads troops (but don't have codex on hand to double check).

Not true! Its in their standard codex entry, actually

it looks like you're assembling a fluffy force, so I'd recommend exchanging the vanguard for a command squad with jump packs. You get pretty much the same damage output, increased survivability, and you retain your valuable FA slots. Then you can take one squadron of typhoons, one squadron of MM/HF, and a third of whatever you feel your playstyle will benefit from.

Unfortunately, the option for a command squad to take packs isn't available, else trust me I would. I hate to waste an FA slot on a vanguard unit, but it seems I must.

-Kal

Edited by Kaldoth, 12 December 2011 - 07:19 AM.

[Brother Valerius]

Unfortunately I believe packless assault squads are still FA choices with Shrike as an HQ. I think you need Shadow Captain Korvydae to make assault squads troops (but don't have codex on hand to double check).

Not true! Its in their standard codex entry, actually

Like Maturin, I don't have my codex on hand to double check, but packless assault squads are most definitely still FA choices. And as far as I can remember, Shrike doesn't make assault squads troops or anything like that, so Shrike doesn't matter in that regard.

[greatcrusade08]

are you using C:SM for this army? (i presume so given your using shrike)
becuase packless assault marines are definately still fast attack choices, tactical marines and scouts are the only troops choices, bikes can be made troops with a biker captain but thats the lot.

edit: ninja'd by picard Valerius

I too think its a shame command squads cant have jump packs, EmWard really missed that one.
i like vanguard but only on foot, they are 25 points already (which is expensive) but +10pts per pack and then all PWs, makes them crazy expensive.
personally id run ten assault marrines dual flamer and fist/hammer for about 250pts.. cant go wrong with that little lot (if you want to splurge a chaplain could be a nice addition

edit 2: shrike grants fleet, koryvadae makes assault marines troops, but hes an IA character and as such not allowed in any 'formal' games.
what i fidn weird is that Korvy is the tenth co captain.. aka master of recruits, yet makes assault marines count as troops....
anyone else puzzled, bemused and otherwise confused by that?

Edited by greatcrusade08, 12 December 2011 - 07:39 AM.

[Kaldoth]

Unfortunately I believe packless assault squads are still FA choices with Shrike as an HQ. I think you need Shadow Captain Korvydae to make assault squads troops (but don't have codex on hand to double check).

Not true! Its in their standard codex entry, actually

Like Maturin, I don't have my codex on hand to double check, but packless assault squads are most definitely still FA choices. And as far as I can remember, Shrike doesn't make assault squads troops or anything like that, so Shrike doesn't matter in that regard.

The Squad may remove its jump packs to count as Infantry. It may then have a Drop Pod or Rhino for free.

Edited by Kaldoth, 12 December 2011 - 07:38 AM.

[Brother Valerius]

Unfortunately I believe packless assault squads are still FA choices with Shrike as an HQ. I think you need Shadow Captain Korvydae to make assault squads troops (but don't have codex on hand to double check).

Not true! Its in their standard codex entry, actually

Like Maturin, I don't have my codex on hand to double check, but packless assault squads are most definitely still FA choices. And as far as I can remember, Shrike doesn't make assault squads troops or anything like that, so Shrike doesn't matter in that regard.

The Squad may remove its jump packs to count as Infantry. It may then have a Drop Pod or Rhino for free.

You just proved our point. They become Infantry (the unit type), not Troops (the force org slot). Those are two very different things.

[greatcrusade08]

infantry isnt a FOC qualifier its a unit type as per the BRB.. it gives them certain restrictions for movement embarking vehciles and whatnot..

infantry does not mean troops choice im afraid

edit: dammit, ninja'd again, does that man not blink???

Edited by greatcrusade08, 12 December 2011 - 07:42 AM.

[Chengar Qordath]

MM/HF is pretty much the ultimate close-in Landspeeder. Not having a lot of range can be an issue, but the flat-out cover save does provide a very nice boost to their survivability while closing in, especially since with 24" of skimmer movement you can usually find somewhere on the board that gives you a measure of terrain blocking enemy shooting.

Just checked my codex, and nothing in the assault squad entry says that dropping packs makes them Troops. Shrike also doesn't change the Force Org chart in any way. (ninja'd by half a dozen people. Ouch)

Anyway, seconding GC08: Infantry is a unit type, not a force org slot.

Edited by Chengar Qordath, 12 December 2011 - 07:44 AM.

[Brother Valerius]

infantry isnt a FOC qualifier its a unit type as per the BRB.. it gives them certain restrictions for movement embarking vehciles and whatnot..

infantry does not mean troops choice im afraid

Post faster, GC08!

[greatcrusade08]

Post faster, GC08!

im posting as fast as a mortal can.. must mean your some kind of sensai or warp entity..
we must cleanse and purge valerius

[Kaldoth]

Bawwwwwwww, well don't I feel like an idiot xD ah well, crush my hopes and dreams B&C, crush then into a fine, sugary powder.

[greatcrusade08]

we aim to please

seriously though we all make mistakes, but you know tac squads in drop pods are quite fluffy for raven guard, go with flamer, combi-flamer on the sergeant and youve got a nice anti infantry unit

[Brother Valerius]

Bawwwwwwww, well don't I feel like an idiot xD ah well, crush my hopes and dreams B&C, crush then into a fine, sugary powder.

It's not our fault that the powder of your crushed dreams is so delicious.

[Kaldoth]

It sure is

Now, to get back on topic (and to draw attention away from my blatant misreading of the assault marines entry ), the mm/hf combo seems quite nice for antitank purposes. In the event they survive attacking whatever horrible beasty/gigantic warmachine they are sent after, they can still wreak a little havoc on troops before they get cut to shreds. I like it

So, for short range a squadron of mm/hf speeders, and for light/mid armored targets a squadron of two tml speeders? Or should I just max it out at three?

-Kal

Edited by Kaldoth, 12 December 2011 - 08:31 AM.

[Sons of the Forge]

I normally take a Storm so it can scout ahead just that little bit further. Packer with scouts you normally get one MM, one combi-melta and melta bomb. An yes your storm/scouts will die soon after but 250pts Land Raider for only the lose of 155 is a fair trade IMO.

[spartan249]

After a year of testing speeder configurations, I'm pretty settled on 4 speeders as a decent number to pack in an army list. Any less, and I'm losing all my speeders by the end of the game, which I'm not too keen on as they serve as objective contesting extraordinares for me. Any more, and there are just too many points being spent that really don't add much more in terms of killing power, only in hard survivability.

I'm currently running the Typhoons together and the Melta speeders either in a squadron or in singlets, depending on what other FA units are in my list. Keep Melta speeders and Typhoon speeders seperate, as the two operate in vastly different range bands, and keeping them together becomes very inefficient in terms of application of force each turn.

[DarkGuard]

After a year of testing speeder configurations, I'm pretty settled on 4 speeders as a decent number to pack in an army list. Any less, and I'm losing all my speeders by the end of the game, which I'm not too keen on as they serve as objective contesting extraordinares for me. Any more, and there are just too many points being spent that really don't add much more in terms of killing power, only in hard survivability.

I'm currently running the Typhoons together and the Melta speeders either in a squadron or in singlets, depending on what other FA units are in my list. Keep Melta speeders and Typhoon speeders seperate, as the two operate in vastly different range bands, and keeping them together becomes very inefficient in terms of application of force each turn.

This IMO and experience, is one of the best ways to run your Fast Attack. Had tremendous success with this, only sad thing at the moment is that I can't actually get the points for MM/HF Speeders at the minute as my list so packed with units, so it's just a squadron of two MM ABs at the moment for me.

[raganrkob]

I also agree with spartan249

If you need something to threaten AV 13-14 MM/HF are the way to go. If you need long range support take Typhoons instead. One the advantages that the Typhoons have over the MM/HF ones is that agains infantry they can fire both weapons after moving 12'' (when firing the small blast version of the missiles).

For running 4 speeders I'd suggest to run the typhoons alone and group the Tornados together. 4 missiles agains a single target is usually overkill so it's better to spread them out to treathen more targets from turn 1. But it's viable to do it the other way around as well.