43 replies to this topic

[Marshal Angman]

So I'm assembling a land speeder for my white scars, and I'm wondering, where in a company (brotherhood) / Chapter do the crew come from? now looking at the box and markings etc they have fast attack (well assault squad) markings on them. So basically what I'm asking is do they either

a ) come from the companies (brotherhoods) assault squads
b ) come from the assault (8th Company) company
c ) the armoury

Any help would be appreciated as it affect how they're painted.

Cheers in advance

Edited by Marshal Angman, 15 December 2011 - 06:03 PM.

[Olisredan]

I think, judging by recent discussions I've seen, this would be similar to the tank crew debate. Iirc the crews come form the reserve companies.

(I could be wrong - I'm sure if I am someone shall quickly point it out.)

[frostclaw222]

I always assumed (perhaps foolishly) that since the accessories sprue came with mechanicus shoulder pads that they were junior techmarines in training, and therefore seconded to the forge. Thoughts?

[Elric the Silvercoat]

I always assumed (perhaps foolishly) that since the accessories sprue came with mechanicus shoulder pads that they were junior techmarines in training, and therefore seconded to the forge. Thoughts?

I think this is most likly the right answer really. I don't see a Chapter using the Reserve companies as pilots or drivers and in almost every book I have read that talks about the pilots or drivers they seem to be picked or ask to join that path in the Space Marines and most of the bigger vehicles like Land Raiders and Thunderhawks have Techmarine pilots or drivers too.

[Seahawk]

It's actually the Assault Squads of each company that crew the landspeeders and bikes, thus they'll have the same markings as their unit. Sources for that include older Codexes, Index Astartes, and Insignium Astartes.

Edited by Seahawk, 15 December 2011 - 06:36 PM.

[madscuzzy]

The earlier codices and stuff did allude the speeder crew to the assault company, although these days, it is the tacticals that handle the speeders. The 7th company (tacticals) specialises in speeders, with 6th for bikes. How they function within a battle company is not clear, so one may just still refer back to the assault sections handling them, but running them with tacs may not be wrong either.

[Marshal Angman]

I'd go along with the from the Companies assault squads answer. It's makes most sense to me, especially as I've always viewed bikers as assault marines that have swapped out their jump packs for bikes. This may also help explain why WS scars have three assault squads in their brotherhoods as to the usual two in other chapters companies

[Grotsmasha]

I can see White Scar mounted companies operating similarly to the Ravenwing (without the secret mission), it would make sense for them to come from within the company.

Cheers,
Jono

[bannus]

According to the fluff, the Speeder crews will come from one of two sources (as mentioned in the posts above):

Speeders that are an integral part of the Company's armory will be crewed by Assault Marines of that Company.

Speeders attached to the Company will be crewed by Tactical Marines of the 7th Company.

Either (or both) could apply in any formation.

[Techmarine Data007]

Isn't the Ravenwing formed from the entire Second Company, though? I personally paint my speeder crew and bikers as Company members, representing they are crewed by the assault squads. If I collect enough to go beyond that 20 man limit, I'll vary the shoulder pads to represent that they are from other Companies. Now I have to read my codex again to decide as to what the proper Company should be.

[Vodunius]

The earlier codices and stuff did allude the speeder crew to the assault company, although these days, it is the tacticals that handle the speeders. The 7th company (tacticals) specialises in speeders, with 6th for bikes.

There was no 'allusion'. Codex: Ultramarines explicitly stated that Battle Company and 8th Company Assault squads could be deployed as Land Speeder or Bike Squadrons AND that 6th and 7th Company Tactical squads could be deployed as Bike and Speeder squadrons respectively. All of these facts were supported by the Ultramarines organisation chart in the 3rd edition codex and explicitly confirmed in Insignium Astartes. Things got a bit screwy with 4th edition when they decided to combine 6th & 7th companies into "Bikes & Speeders" on the organisation chart ~ only they flubbed it and pasted Land Raider everywhere Speeder should have been, resulting in the chapter having no Land Speeders at all, however the 4th edition Codex and How to Paint Space Marines still showed Land Speeders and Bikes from the Battle Company Assault squads. The 5th edition Codex does mention the 6th companies specialty in bikes but in the exact same sentance as saying all of the chapters assault marines do as well, the Land Speeder entry doesn't actually mention tacticals at all only assault squads. To my knowledge no source has ever listed Speeders under the armoury.

The status of most thunderhawk and tank crews is contradictory and muddied, the status of speeder and bike crews is most definitely not.. with the exception of Dark Angels: sources by Jervis don't have any mention of them outside of the Ravenwing - most notably the Armies of the Imperium where the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels & Space Wolves current chapter structures first appeared, whilst sources by Gav Thorpe do.

Minor addendum: Insignium Astartes has squads retain their markings irrespective of mounts: so 6th & 7th companies retain their tactical markings when on bikes & speeders.

Edited by Vodunius, 15 December 2011 - 09:03 PM.

[Marshal Angman]

Can I just clarify how the White Scars do bikes (as this has been stated) Pretty much every single White scar has access to a bike, in one engagement the first two tactical squads are specified to be bike mounted (And a power lance, but that's another issue). In hunt for voldorius the White Scars have thunderhawks that have been modified to carry entire bike mounted squads. And in one passage the entire 3rd company mounts up on bikes and enacts effectively a cavalry charge with the afore mentioned power lances. But Land Speeders weren't mentioned, hence why I asked

[Race Bannon]

Maybe because the entire 3rd company had to be delivered from outer space to planetside via Thunderhawk?

[TennisBall]

Aren't thunderhawks capable of carrying land speeders though? I don't believe they are capable of space flight so how else do they get to a planet's surface?

[NightrawenII]

Aren't thunderhawks capable of carrying land speeders though? I don't believe they are capable of space flight so how else do they get to a planet's surface?

Presumably? Yes, but unfortunately the rules does not reflect that.

[Techmarine Data007]

Probably Strike Cruiser in (very) low orbit, if not from the forward bay of a Thunderhawk.

[frostclaw222]

I always thought Landspeeder Deepstrike was some sort of speeder-sized pod of ablative heat shielding that popped off after they hit atmo, and the deepstrike was the antigravs finally counteracting terminal velocity upon arrival in theater.

It solves the problem of power armor needing to survive reentry, and allows for speeder delivery from orbit. Just sort of made sense that way to me.

[Nym468]

I've got to bring up another point regarding the landspeeder debate. As previously mentioned marines crewing a landspeeder retain their squad markings and as tactical marines have spent their required time in an assault squad, couldn't tactical squads of UM 2nd Company mount up on either bikes or speeders and the vehicles would retain their fast attack iconography while the marines retain their yellow/gold trim and tactical squad markings. I'm asking in the practical sense, I'm not a player just a hobbyist and am putting together as complete an Ultramarines 2nd Company as I can while remaining true to the correct organizational structure.

[Legatus]

As previously mentioned marines crewing a landspeeder retain their squad markings and as tactical marines have spent their required time in an assault squad, couldn't tactical squads of UM 2nd Company mount up on either bikes or speeders and the vehicles would retain their fast attack iconography while the marines retain their yellow/gold trim and tactical squad markings.

Generally speaking, no. The Battle Company's own Bikes and Speeders are crewed by members of the Assault squads, not members of the Tactical squads. Presumably so that the Company retains its ratio of tactical and mobile elements, and does not start to lean towards mobile elements.

[Nym468]

okay that makes a lot more sense, I didn't think about the importance of the ratio of tacticals vs. mobile elements.

[voi shet magir]

It can be understood that battle company tactical marines are sometimes mounted on bikes. That is contingent on most or all of the company being mounted, so that they are not used as auxiliary supporting units, and are used instead as fast tactical units engaging the main battle line. This is extremely codex behavior, if ever rhinos are for some reason less appropriate.

[Cactus]

Maybe because the entire 3rd company had to be delivered from outer space to planetside via Thunderhawk?

I think Marshal Angman's point was that the entire company got on their bikes.

[Arikel]

Page 16 of the current codex pretty much spells it out. Landspeeders are generally crewed by the company's assault squads, if more speeders are needed for the mission(or the assault squads are otherwise occupied) than additional landspeeders and crews will be requisitioned from either the 7th or 8th reserve companies (additional bikers would come from the 6th or 8th companies). In a pinch, pretty much any tactical marine could be driving a speeder(or a bike), as they all did basic training on them when they were in assault squads before being assigned to a tac squad, but this would be exception to standard procedures (as per the current scout to dev to assault to tactical marine progression fluff).

If you are talking dark angels, they may not follow the same progression, but aside from their 1rst and 2nd companies, they seem codex enough that they generally would.

Edited by Arikel, 11 January 2012 - 05:52 AM.

[Legatus]

In some older sources, the Dark Angels' 6th and 7th Company were described as not being able to field Bikes or Land Speeders. Sort of as a tradeoff for having the 2nd Company dedicated to Bike and Land Speeder units.

[voi shet magir]

All of a battle company’s marines may have been in the 8th and 6/7th companies. There is every reason to expect that the battle companies would take only marines who have been through the full course of reserve duties. The marines may then be used in the squads they are best suited to, but should always be able to fill any duty.

It’s not necessary to say that they were previously in “assault squads.” They were in a company that only deploys assault squads, and then in a further company that often uses bike or speeder squads. The progression is from scout to devastator to assault to tactical company. Transfer between companies does not mean that there are types of marine to be transferred between. They are all battle brothers, they are not usually called assault-brothers or devastator-brothers. Mat Ward may use more specific language, but the effect of going from ninth to eighth company is sufficient, there is no reason to specify that they go between different types of marine or squad.

Angels of Death is identical to Ultramarines on the topic of reserve bikers and speeders. Since the Ravenwing probably operates as a whole to search areas comprehensively, they do not provide the same services as normal companies’ bikes. The remaining battle and reserve companies may be reduced in materiel, especially in antigrav, but there is no reason to expect they wouldn’t be nominally capable of fulfilling their codex roles.

Ravenwing are reconnaissance bikers. Assault squads use bikes squads as responsive or auxiliary fast attack units. Tactical squads use bikes as massed or confrontational tactical units. They are all used in different contexts, and don’t have to be the same just because they have similar equipment. As long as a squad is the seventh or eighth of a battle company, its role is to reinforce, flank, or press, and as long as long as a squad is one of the first through sixth, its role is to contest space. The roles will be the same regardless of equipment, and this is why there are only assault squads instead of distinct bike, speeder, unmounted close combat, mechanized close combat, and jump pack squads. Tactical squads don't have to be on foot or mechanized, they are just the main squads.

Devastators carry heavy weapons for dealing with specialized targets. If they contested space or otherwise exposed themselves to attack, they would need to defend themselves and engage in small scale, "tactical" action, and would not be able to provide concentrated support against specific targets as they are meant to. Their jobs have fewer complications than other squads' jobs. Assault squads present themselves directly to the enemy, but they do it selectively. They are meant to be free of engagement, so that when there is an opportunity to exploit weakness, they can take it. This is the difference between a assault and tactical bikers. Tactical bike squads and tactical mechanized squads constantly engage in pressing the enemy and drawing their fire so that devastator and assault squads can make focused actions. Even in a battle company deployed as tactical bikers and assault bikers, the two groups will be distinct.

It would be ridiculous to have a list entry that says an assault squad may exchange its jump packs and one weapon each for a bikes, and if so are limited to eight models but may have an attack bike &c &c, and then another entry that says a tactical squad may exchange its bolters for bikes, but may not take a heavy weapon and may take &c &c &c. It would be even worse to do the same with "may replace all models in the squad with half as many land speeders." Land speeder squads would still have a sergeant somewhere, and a flamer guy. It's just convenient this way. This is an issue of being fooled by third edition again. It's like saying that Librarians have the authority of captains and scout squads are more common than devastators.

When the distinction was still between squads, characters, and support, there was no need to specify that a bike squad was one thing or another. The bike squad entry was just the way to get marines who rode bikes, and it was as possible to have an army of them as much as an army of jump packers or veterans. Tactical squads can be and are used all the time as tactical bikers, just like assault squads are used all the time as assault bikers.

Edited by voi shet magir, 12 January 2012 - 04:19 AM.