16 replies to this topic

[D3athduo]

Hello, so im new to WH40k, been fiddling around with some minis and writing a DIT (got tired of it after I created it, so its now in the safe). And I was wondering if I could ask a noob question. I've never played a Codex Chapter...do I have to include the real characters from the real Ultramarines chapter army list (Calgar, Sicarius (Captain, 2nd Company), etc.)? Or am I allowed to choose randomly my units I want to use? How would this fit into the universe of 40k? Its a really wierd question and hard for even me to understand fully, but thanks.

[Kodanshi]

In terms of an actual game, you can choose randomly as long as you have a Headquarters unit, and at least 2 Troops choices. Other than that it is up to you within the points limit.

A lot of people, and I would assume Codex–strict Ultramarines especially, go for the more ‘fluffy’ builds.

[Legatus]

In earlier Editions and Codices, the Chapter Characters (or so called "Special Characters") were more clearly separated from the regular army list and unit, and were explicitely only allowed in games where both players had agreed beforehand that using Special Characters would be ok. But in the current Edition GW had decided to integrate them more into the army list, and drop the requirement to ask the opponent for permission to use them. Regrdless, they are still called "Special Characters" (see the 5th Edition Rulebook, page 49), and it is generally assumed that armies will use the basic HQ characters from the army list. I.e. i your Space Marines army you would use a regular Captain (Codex Space Marines, p. 132), Librarian (p. 133) or Chaplain (p. 133) (or, if you feel like it, a Chapter Master or Master of the Forge), no matter what Chapter from the Codex Space Marines you are playing. The Special Characters are just meant to giv your army a bit of extra flavour if you want (or some extra punch), but you don't have to have every Imperial Fists army being led by Captain Lysander of the First Company, or the Ultramarines being led by Captain Sicarius of the Second Company, etc.


If you want to play an Ultramarines army, you can pick the Company you want (matters for the colour of the models' shoulder trims, but nothing else, really). You don't have to play as a specific Company or use a specific Captain.
Generally, players are expected to play one of the four "Battle Companies" (Company 2 through 5). The 2nd Company has yellow trims, and is the most recognised for Ultramarines (unfortunately depicted with golden trims in newer publications instead, to my not ending dismay). The 3rd Company has red trims, the 4th has green, and the 5th black trims.

You can find a description of a Chapter's organisation on the pages 16 and 17 of the Codex Space Marines.


You could play units from other companies, and you will most likely at some point include some Veterans/Terminators who come from the 1st Company and Scouts who come from the 10th Company in your army. The reason why players play a Battle Company is that a Battle Company has a mix of different units (Tactical/Assault/Devastator) while the other Companies of a Chapter are focused of a particular type of squad (6th and 7th are all Tactical, 8th is all Assault, 9th is all Devastator).

For the army you play, you are allowed to use any selection of units from the army list. (Edit: As long as the choice of units is according to the Force Organisation Chart, see page 127 of the Codex Space Marines.) You are not limited dependant on Company choice or anything like that. Though, since all Veterans/Terminators come from 1st Company and all Scouts from 10th, they are expected to wear the appropriate colours. (Ultramarine Veterans have white trims and white helmets, Scouts have no Company colour) And a Battle Company only has two Assault and two Devastator squads (so 20 Assault and 20 Devastator Marines), so if you want to use more than that it would be appropriate of the extra Marines use the colours of one of the 6 through 9 Reserve Companies.
E.g. if you play the Fifth Battle Company, most of the units in your army would have black shoulder trims. But if you wanted to use three full Assault squads, only two of those squads would be from 5th Company and have the black trims, while the third unit would be taken from the 8th Reserve Company and have grey trims.

Edited by Legatus, 04 January 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[D3athduo]

Ok, I recently got my copy of the SM Codex and Rulebook and have had them since Christmas and been devouring everything in them. I know alot about how the SM organization works, and only VERY generally about combat rules (I've played half a game with my brother once that we never finished). So I've looked at all the Chapters, and I think the Ultramarines fits the best for my style (General infantry and vehicle support with minor specialization), although I dont like te notion that they're VERY commonly used, feels like jumping on a bandwagon :/ anyway...I plan on collecting my army soon and practicing w my brother (who plays Nids). Thanks for the help. One last question...if I was to create a Campaign/Scenario game, could I create my own Special Characters, or should I use the normal ones. Also, are the Special Characters in the Codex more, less, or equal in strength to the average troops? (As in comparing Sicarius to a normal Captain). Thanks again for the help.

[chaplainmeliadus]

Generally Special Characters have access to unique rules and/or equipment. Sicarius, for example, has a list of stuff as long as your leg. Some people (myself included) will regularly field such characters because of these unique benifits, though it is often debated as to whether the higher prices are worth it compared to a standerd version (yes, or so I reckon).

Don't let yourself get hung up on which chapter a model or set of rules 'belongs' to. In my Ultramarines armies I have a blue captain Lysander, blue Captain Shrike and a blue Pedro Cantor, though actually Lysander is the only one who ever sees any action. They're all in the same book, so it is fine to use any of them. I think the Blood Angel and Dark Angel Codexs (sp?) makes specific mention of using, say, a Mephiston counts-as in a Flesh Tearers army as being perfectly fine.

[D3athduo]

Ok. So it doesn't matter if I field either types. I'm just gonna stick with the standard then, and now I gotta write up my army list...gonna take a while.

[Gornall]

I also wouldn't worry about Smurfs being a commonly-played army. I've played in multiple stores in a number of states and can count the number of Ultramarine armies I have encountered on one hand. I think the idea of Ultramarines being overly common is WAY overblown.

[Purge]

The 2nd Company has yellow trims, and is the most recognised for Ultramarines (unfortunately depicted with golden trims in newer publications instead, to my not ending dismay).

I have to agree. I'm finally finishing up the battle force(I got last xmas) and I did the yellow for the troops and I slapped together a command squad and used the gold to distinguish them from standard troops. I think the yellow pops much more then the gold does. no, pics because they are not worth the time to show. I enjoy the painting, but I'm not very good.
As for HQ choices, I struggle between wanting a Sicarius figure just for looks and the points he is worth. I prefer a captian with power fist and combi melta. At 135 he is a better choice than 200 for Sicarius or 250 for Calgar

[Gornall]

As for HQ choices, I struggle between wanting a Sicarius figure just for looks and the points he is worth. I prefer a captian with power fist and combi melta. At 135 he is a better choice than 200 for Sicarius or 250 for Calgar

/derail
Relic Blade and Combi-Melta IMO... don't waste I5 on a Powerfist.

/ontopic
I am one of the newbies that actually prefers the gold trim... but I have always had problems with painting a good yellow.

[D3athduo]

Ok, I have another question that I think I know the answer to. Are there limits on points costs (I know you have to decide beforehand), but isn't there like, a percentage of the points that have to be allocated to each area so you cant spens nilly-willy? My grandpa used to play and told me that you had to spend 50% of points on HQ and 50% on everything else when he played, is it still the same? Has it been altered? Thanks.

[Jimmy Carmine]

Ok, I have another question that I think I know the answer to. Are there limits on points costs (I know you have to decide beforehand), but isn't there like, a percentage of the points that have to be allocated to each area so you cant spens nilly-willy? My grandpa used to play and told me that you had to spend 50% of points on HQ and 50% on everything else when he played, is it still the same? Has it been altered? Thanks.

The percentage of points per section is from the 2nd edition of the game back in the 1990s, but in the current edition so long as you meet the force organisation chart requirements for the mission (typically 1 HQ and 2 Troops minimum) you are free to spend your points where you wish.

[Legatus]

Yep, in 2nd Edition, the percentage system was used so that players would play somewhat decent armies, and not just take a bunch of Captains, or only Tanks, but instead use at least some amount of basic units. In 3rd Edition that system was replaced with the "Force Organisation Chart" system, where now an army has to first include one HQ choice and two Troops choices, and can then get additional choices from the army list.

[D3athduo]

Ok yeah I thought so, thanks.

[Seahawk]

, although I dont like te notion that they're VERY commonly used, feels like jumping on a bandwagon :/

It's actually quite the opposite . Very few players actually play Ultramarines; the "bandwagon crew" are those that jump from new codex to new codex every other month.

[Gaius Atticus]

I also wouldn't worry about Smurfs being a commonly-played army. I've played in multiple stores in a number of states and can count the number of Ultramarine armies I have encountered on one hand. I think the idea of Ultramarines being overly common is WAY overblown.

I agree. Blood Angels and Wolves are probably more common with Dark Angels coming in behind UM in the common charts. I've noticed a huge surge in White Scars (I blame Fat Bloke), Vulkans and Imperial Fists (better yellow paint perhaps?) since the two summer campaigns in 2003 and 2005 (iirc).

[Kreon]

, although I dont like te notion that they're VERY commonly used, feels like jumping on a bandwagon :/

It's actually quite the opposite . Very few players actually play Ultramarines; the "bandwagon crew" are those that jump from new codex to new codex every other month.

In the 3 stores I play at, I know of 1 other Ultramarines player. He's been playing since 2nd Edition. Where a lot of this crap comes from is that often when a younger player starts the hobby, they pick up Space Marines first and often paint up some Ultramarines to begin with. At this point they receive verbal abuse from other players and the internet, because they have decided to play the vanilla, boring, crappy, poster-boy, mary-sue, goody 2-shoes chapter that GW LOVES SO MUCH. At this point they go play a cool (read as cheese) marine chapter and become an unbearable beard player within a year.

In closing, I don't know where this notion of GW love comes from. GW coiled out a pretty big turd on the Ultramarines so far as I'm concerned. Where are our special chapter icons? Where is the codex represented in our rules beyond a flexible force org (and the insanity that is Marneus "Papa Smurf" Calgar)? Throwing a bunch of special characters at us was okay, except you will never have that many of them on board at once. At best, you will have 1 of the command units, and maybe Telion. And then they made that movie...

[Jaigo]

For HQ´s in the codex I use a liking figure. Rename the HQ and explain before play that it is using an particulair special character template.
This way I avoid having an actualual non Ultramarine character, but still have acces to the types in the codex.

As for choices... I was very suprised on how good chaplain Cassius is