90 replies to this topic

[Veteran Sergeant]

Except that is what McNeill is portraying it as, a rulebook, and hence my complaint.

you know im readng through alot of these posts, and if you dont like the way McNeill portray the ultras, then thats fine..
but id imagine the ultramarines are one of the hardest chapter to write about, i mean it seriously, whats thier selling point? a book needs more than bolter porn to sell, it needs the background stuff.

What is there to write about? I don't know, good characters, a well drafted conflict and resolution? You know, all the things that are part of writing any kind of novel? I mean, how hard is it to write license fiction? I understand a lot of effort goes into writing a novel, and my hat off to anyone who completes one. McNeill's characters aren't bad, and his writing style isn't bad, but there are a million ways to write stories about the Ultramarines without having to rely on these kinds of amateurish interpretations of the Codex. Heck, the Ultramarines should be the easiest chapter to write about. They are just big guys in big armor with big guns that have this big book of tactics and strategy that makes them amazing warfighters. No little cultural plot hooks (aside from the subtle Roman references) like the Space Wolves, no quirks of psychology or biology to explain, etc. There's a reason why GW uses the Ultramarines as their flagship chapter. All you have to do to write Ultramarines is describe really good warriors doing their thing. And that gives you a million ways to go with things. People have been writing military fiction for decades, if not centuries, and not needed anything more than that. Pick an enemy, imagine up a planet for them to be on, consider some basic thematic and narrative elements, mix together with Ultramarines.

What McNeill did was almost a cardinal sin as a writer. He attempted to write about something he didn't understand or know. At all. That was his choice, not something forced upon him. If you notice, most of the other stories about Space Marines just have vague references to the Codex Astartes, because nobody actually knows what's in it. It's a fictional book with only a basic description of its contents. However, the concepts that the fictional book would contain have very real and solid links to things that happen in the real world (generalship, strategy, logistics, chain of command, etc), that are easily researched. A similar example would be like me choosing to write a book about the Qur'an, without know what was in it or ever having read it. I mean, I understand the basic tenets of Islam and I've been to Islamic countries and interacted with their populaces (the equivalent of knowing the basic 40K lore). I should be able to write a whole novel explaining how and why Islamic militants think and act right? No.

[greatcrusade08]

i believe the mistake here is yours.. McNeill wrote about the codex almost exclusivelly, whether you agree or not, his vision of the codex is canon.
he has commited no sin, becuase there is no actual codex to reference, most of what we know about the codex bar recent HH novels comes from him.

to assume we know greater than the man who created the canon is rude, obnoxious and is the very reason many people hate ultramarines fans.
you guys need to lighten up, again show me your stories and ill judge whether your worthy to criticise McNeill

[Marshal2 Crusaders]

You don't have to have experience with something to write about it. Just imagination and plausibility.

A D-B has never been in combat. Or on a spaceship. Or hung someone from a ceiling and made a blood condor.


But I believe his Night Lords have.

[greatcrusade08]

thats the thing, most people i know enjoy the ultramarines books for what they are.. yet some people want to dissect every word and find fault.
some people even do it to A D-B and dan abnett, IMO you should enjoy a story for being a story
the ultramarines series is well written and has enjoyable characters (i prefer secondary figures myself and have told McNeill as much in person)..

[Ming]

Hmmm...reading all this made me want to go find a nice oatmeal raisin cookie and some hot spiced tea. So I did.

The interesting thing behind it all (for me) is NOT the strict adherence to the Codex Astartes by Ventris and Friends, instead it is the seemingly behind the scenes plot of Calgar and Tigurius developing Ventris as a Captain and their watchful gaze as they see Ventris strive to learn what the application of the codex actually means.

When Ventris breaks his chain of command to join the Deathwatch for the attack on the Norn Queen, Tigurius influences events so that Ventris (and Pasanaeus) go on their death quest - in the open, it serves the major purpose of communicating to the Chapter that breaking the chain of command will not be tolerated. In secret, Tigurius does not send them out for punishment - he sends them on a mission to accomplish something that needs to be accomplished above all other things. Ventris and Pasaneus are used for a secret purpose that Tigurius knows will be successful.

When they come back - Ventris is brought to the mighty triumverate to face their questions - and besides having learned the overall lesson, Tigurius wants to make sure he understands what it all means. Pretty deep stuff. (of course our favorite chaplain turns everything int a must comply yes/no exercise, as expected...). Calgar says less but his intent is that free thinking command style is more important to him than robotic compliace to a book. Heady stuffy.

[Marshal2 Crusaders]

thats the thing, most people i know enjoy the ultramarines books for what they are.. yet some people want to dissect every word and find fault.
some people even do it to A D-B and dan abnett, IMO you should enjoy a story for being a story
the ultramarines series is well written and has enjoyable characters (i prefer secondary figures myself and have told McNeill as much in person)..

Sorry, I should've quoted. I was replying to Something Wicked.

I agree that we should appreciate good stories.

[Gree]

i believe the mistake here is yours.. McNeill wrote about the codex almost exclusivelly, whether you agree or not, his vision of the codex is canon.
he has commited no sin, becuase there is no actual codex to reference, most of what we know about the codex bar recent HH novels comes from him.

to assume we know greater than the man who created the canon is rude, obnoxious and is the very reason many people hate ultramarines fans.
you guys need to lighten up, again show me your stories and ill judge whether your worthy to criticise McNeill

His version is hardly canon. I can point out at least one aspect of his stories that directly contradicts the Space Marine Codex and other Black Library stories.

You don't have to have experience with something to write about it. Just imagination and plausibility.

A D-B has never been in combat. Or on a spaceship. Or hung someone from a ceiling and made a blood condor.


But I believe his Night Lords have.

I wonder if you would be saying that if Helsreach had featured a Black Templar chaplain who liked psykers and talked about how awesome the Codex Astartes was the entire book and how the Templars should follow it.

Research does help. Carefully studying the fluff and doing research on how real life treatises and combat manuals would help.

But A D-B has the tendency to make his Astartes awesome without making them go overboard. And even when his characters expresses an opinion he is clear that what he character thinks and might no eb necessarily true.

Hmmm...reading all this made me want to go find a nice oatmeal raisin cookie and some hot spiced tea. So I did.

The interesting thing behind it all (for me) is NOT the strict adherence to the Codex Astartes by Ventris and Friends, instead it is the seemingly behind the scenes plot of Calgar and Tigurius developing Ventris as a Captain and their watchful gaze as they see Ventris strive to learn what the application of the codex actually means.

When Ventris breaks his chain of command to join the Deathwatch for the attack on the Norn Queen, Tigurius influences events so that Ventris (and Pasanaeus) go on their death quest - in the open, it serves the major purpose of communicating to the Chapter that breaking the chain of command will not be tolerated. In secret, Tigurius does not send them out for punishment - he sends them on a mission to accomplish something that needs to be accomplished above all other things. Ventris and Pasaneus are used for a secret purpose that Tigurius knows will be successful.

When they come back - Ventris is brought to the mighty triumverate to face their questions - and besides having learned the overall lesson, Tigurius wants to make sure he understands what it all means. Pretty deep stuff. (of course our favorite chaplain turns everything int a must comply yes/no exercise, as expected...). Calgar says less but his intent is that free thinking command style is more important to him than robotic compliace to a book. Heady stuffy.

Except that’s not really what happens. Ventris is tried before a council of his peers, who make his crime very clear (His entire history of breaking with the Codex is cited as reason, the Deathwatch incident is not even mentioned aside from a brief comment) and after he has been thrown out Calgar stops him and basically says

‘’BTW, when you are on your death quest go destroy this faculty if you happen to come across it. But you are sent out to die.’’

But at the time of the writing Calgar wants him to die.

“A true judgement has been returned against you and the Codex Astartes has but one punishment for your crimes. Though you are warriors of courage and it pains me to lose such valiant fighters, I have no choice in my verdict. Just as we all are, I too am bound by the Codex and must obey its teachings in sentencing you to death.”
The grip on Uriel’s chiton tightened.
“There are many ways one can achieve death, many ways to meet your fate. To waste a life that may yet bring retribution to the enemies of the Emperor is a sin in and of itself. It is therefore my judgement that you be bound by a Death Oath, and take the light of the Emperor into that abominable region of space where many a true warrior has met his end—the Eye of Terror. I bind you to take your fire and steel into the dark places until such time as you meet your destiny.”

…..
“Uriel, Pasanius,” said Lord Calgar.
The two Space Marines stopped and bowed to their former master.
“The Emperor go with you. Die well.”

He is sent out to die. Not on some super secret mission that is really is part of the Chapter. Uriel spends much of the next book lamenting he is no longer part of the Chapter. I'm not sure why the Ultramarines accepted him back, but he was sent out to die.

Calgar may be sympathetic, as does Agemman, but the central theme of Consequences is the noble rebel being put on trial by petty conservative officers for daring to innovate. Those petty conservative officers that make up the bulk of the chapter I might add.

Edited by Gree, 02 February 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Graham writes a mighty fine novel and interestingly both hits and misses the mark with the Ultramarines.
After reading the blog linked earlier I find that I can articulate it by using bits of the blog as examples.

"The Ultramarines remember that they were created to keep the galaxy safe for the human race; that their entire raison d’etre was to conquer the galaxy and defend the frontiers of human space against all-comers. They illustrate the millennia of honourable service to the Emperor and humanity. They are arch-conservatives, putting tradition and history before adaptation and evolution. The Chapter’s history links the present with the great deeds and glories of the past. They illustrate the ideal of a Space Marine Chapter and the importance of discipline and organisation. The Ultramarines, and Uriel Ventris in particular, know that they exist to serve humanity, not the other way round."

I feel this is more or less spot on, at least for me. It is fine to portray them as hide bound in a cultural, stodgy sort of way. They do after all have elements of "Romans/Greeks in SPPPPAAACCCCEEE" and have a potent legacy stretching back to the Great Crusade. Given their penchant to carry lessons from the past into the present, to keep reaching back to tradition is very in character.

But to carry this on to their military procedures seems a bit strange.
"A Chapter that bases its entire organization on a ten thousand year old book, but which lives in an ever-changing galaxy. How would they deal with that, and what would be the consequences of choosing to do things in a different way?"

Given the point of the codex is flexibility, this seems a mite jarring. Though I may be misremembering, I recall at least one quote the describes the codex as a "living", one that has been added to by military leaders over the millennial as new enemies arise.
The biggest gripe I could have with McNeil's writing is actually how "EPPPICCCCC!!!" he likes to write it. I acknowledge that 40K is all about cranking it up to 11, but McNeil seems to go to 12 sometimes.

My favorite example of this is the siege scenes in Dead Sky, Black Sun. An intercine conflict between Chaos forces that results in the more or less total destruction of two/three Grand Companies. This is bordering on the ridiculous to me, mainly because the Unfleshed then seemed like a plot device/justification simply to explain how there would be ANY Chaos marines left to sally forth out of the Eye of Terror.

OF course, this penchant for "EPPPICCCC!!!" makes me generally love his Horus Heresy writing. I can live with that.

[Tranc]

to assume we know greater than the man who created the canon is rude, obnoxious and is the very reason many people hate ultramarines fans.
you guys need to lighten up, again show me your stories and ill judge whether your worthy to criticise McNeill

But we can complain that McNeil took canon in a direction that we don't like, or that his canon is inconsistent with other canon, or that it sounds implausible given our experiences with... reality. (I do satellite work and cringe every time I read about 40k orbital mechanics, or lack there of.)

But that's beside the point, you don't have to be an automobile maker to know you hate a car.

I know it's hard to hear criticism of McNeil's work when you apparently like the man personally. Cheer up brother, everyone is entitled to his opinion here, and you can discount ours as being nit-picky. But know that the opinion exists.

Edited by Tranc, 02 February 2012 - 07:12 PM.

[Something Wycked]

I hope this only sheds light on the discussion, instead of fuel on the fire, but... Well, here:

How hard is it, as authors, reigning in artistic licence when bringing to life something that has been rigidly laid down in Warhammer 40,000 lore since its inception?

Graham McNeill: "Part of the fun is that it’s not that rigid."

Source.

Granted, its a question referring to the Horus Heresy and not his work with Ultramarines in particular, but I think it shows a little bit about how he thinks.

[Gree]

I hope this only sheds light on the discussion, instead of fuel on the fire, but... Well, here:

How hard is it, as authors, reigning in artistic licence when bringing to life something that has been rigidly laid down in Warhammer 40,000 lore since its inception?

Graham McNeill: "Part of the fun is that it’s not that rigid."

Source.

Granted, its a question referring to the Horus Heresy and not his work with Ultramarines in particular, but I think it shows a little bit about how he thinks.

That doesn’t really change the fact that McNeill portrays the majority of the Ultramarines as petty and conservative in the context of his own novels, and then vindicates his main character by having Guilliman himself essentially state that the Ultramarines are doing it wrong.

Earlier I posted an example with the Black Templars, of a theoretical short story in which Dorn admits to Guilliman that he is wrong, psykers are awesome and that the Black Templars should totally adopt Rob’s Codex Astartes.

If you where a Black Templar player, I imagine you might be rather peeved. It’s kinda how I feel with Rules of Engagement.

The Ultramarines have got it wrong for ten thousand years and now Ventris is here to show them the right way. For some reason that leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Edited by Gree, 02 February 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[Ming]

[/quote]
He is sent out to die. Not on some super secret mission that is really is part of the Chapter. Uriel spends much of the next book lamenting he is no longer part of the Chapter. I'm not sure why the Ultramarines accepted him back, but he was sent out to die.

Calgar may be sympathetic, as does Agemman, but the central theme of Consequences is the noble rebel being put on trial by petty conservative officers for daring to innovate. Those petty conservative officers that make up the bulk of the chapter I might add.
[/quote]

In many of the books in this series there is always some pre-discussion or shadowed visitor in or around the space where Ventris gets his instruction and mission assignment. He is clearly being groomed and his future manipulated, both Calgar and Tigurius are involved in that. I'll have to go back and re-read the conversation he has after the quest with Tigurius in particular, and in following books. Overall in this type of long term plot development, there is something more than meets the eye in terms of who knows what and what is really going on. Tigurius knew the quest would be acomplished before Ventris and Pasaneus were sent out on it. He knew they would come back.

I love how the books all dance around what is in the Codex Astartes without going into much for detail. On the other hand I'm glad it is not in print as a hobby product. Could you imagine if we had an actual tome to follow as UM players and we would be cast out if our own battle reports found us in violation with it? Crazy. I'd probably be chucked out first for using Kantor as Ardias, LOL.

[Gree]

In many of the books in this series there is always some pre-discussion or shadowed visitor in or around the space where Ventris gets his instruction and mission assignment. He is clearly being groomed and his future manipulated, both Calgar and Tigurius are involved in that. I'll have to go back and re-read the conversation he has after the quest with Tigurius in particular, and in following books. Overall in this type of long term plot development, there is something more than meets the eye in terms of who knows what and what is really going on. Tigurius knew the quest would be acomplished before Ventris and Pasaneus were sent out on it. He knew they would come back.

But that’s not what the short story actually says. Do you have quotes that Tigurius knew Ventris would come back? I have provided quotes to support my position.

EDIT: Upon re-reading Courage and Honor, there is no mention of Uriel being expected back at all. Zero. They have a conversation about Tigurius, but it’s not about Tigurius knowing Uriel would return but what the Codex was and how it defined them from Chaos Marines.

Edited by Gree, 02 February 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[Veteran Sergeant]

You don't have to have experience with something to write about it. Just imagination and plausibility.

And you have uncovered McNeill's failure. Congratulations. It's your first big step.

But no, good writers do research. Anybody can be a writer. Try it out. Put some words on paper (or electronic document if you so prefer).

McNeill wrote about the codex almost exclusivelly, whether you agree or not, his vision of the codex is canon.
he has commited no sin, becuase there is no actual codex to reference, most of what we know about the codex bar recent HH novels comes from him.

A novel concept, but no. McNeill may have written more recently about the Codex, but there is a lot of other authors who have written about the Codex Astartes, and in ways that contradict what McNeill writes about it. Most of what "we" (and I use this to apparently present a demographic that does not you since you have delineated a an entirely different "we" that does not contain more well read and experienced 40K fans such as myself) have learned comes from a multitude of other authors, dating back to Rick Preistley, one of, if not the man who came up with the idea for the Codex Astartes in the first place.

to assume we know greater than the man who created the canon is rude, obnoxious and is the very reason many people hate ultramarines fans.

I am a fan of 40K, not specifically the Ultramarines. I'm also a fan of good literature and writing. What you decide to do by segregating yourself from Ultramarines and revealing your own petty biases is done at your own discretion. But McNeill did not create "the canon", he only gave birth to a deformed and mentally disabled offspring of the canon that you can choose to accept, or you can analyze for its faults against the greater and more expansive canon on the subject. Though, with such poor fact checking and continuity editing over at the Black Library, there is little way to effectively discuss "canon" in the 40K universe. You can only critically analyze the produced fiction. My analysis of Graham McNeill's fiction reveals an author who did no, or poor, research on military strategy, the command of military units, etc. For some, this is not a problem. If your consumption of license fiction does not involve any critical analysis, there is nothing that makes you a lesser person. However, it does make you look foolish when you attempt to engage others in discussion who have done so.

Edited by Veteran Sergeant, 02 February 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[Marshal2 Crusaders]

Red Badge of Courage is one of the finest books on combat ever written. The author had never been in combat. Starship Troopers is one of the finest cmentaries on service ever written. He online served on a PT boat.

I seriously doubt A D-B or Dan have spent much time studying FMs or strategy outside of a few read throughs and I doubt they have considerable interest in pracap.

My point is as long as it feels right, it helps the plot. It's only because you, having served, know the difference that it breaks your suspension of disbelief. You are a minority in the people who play 40K, though. How many sweaty neck beards have interest in ranger school or SOI? How many prefer call of duty to patrols and details?

[Gree]

Red Badge of Courage is one of the finest books on combat ever written. The author had never been in combat. Starship Troopers is one of the finest cmentaries on service ever written. He online served on a PT boat.

Heinlein did his research. I know that much.

I seriously doubt A D-B or Dan have spent much time studying FMs or strategy outside of a few read throughs and I doubt they have considerable interest in pracap.

My point is as long as it feels right, it helps the plot. It's only because you, having served, know the difference that it breaks your suspension of disbelief. You are a minority in the people who play 40K, though. How many sweaty neck beards have interest in ranger school or SOI? How many prefer call of duty to patrols and details?

There is a difference between writing cool battle scenes and having the Codex give clearly detrimental advice in contrived and frankly insane conditions. For example, the Codex will tell you to attack an enemy, even if it might endanger the campaign.

And in some situations the Codex will not cover anything, but McNeill has us believe it would not cover something as seemingly basic as improvised explosives or what to do if a company is understrength. And the Ultramarines can’t make original situations. There are several times in the first new novels where Uriel regards the idea of inventing a new situation something new and unfamiliar.

Uriel was puzzled. Idaeus was a man he trusted implicitly, they had fought and bled together for over fifty years, forming a bond of friendship that Uriel found all too rarely. Yet he could never claim to truly understand Idaeus. The captain relied on instinct and feelings more than the holy Codex Astartes, that great work of military thinking penned ten thousand years ago by their own Primarch, Roboute Guilliman.
The Codex formed the basis of virtually every Space Marine Chapter’s tactical doctrine and laid the foundations for the military might of the entire Imperium. Its words were sanctified by the Emperor himself and the Ultramarines had not deviated from its teachings since it had been written following the dark days of the Horus Heresy.
But Idaeus tended to regard the wisdom of the Codex as advice rather than holy instruction and this was a constant source of amazement to Uriel. He had been Idaeus’s second-in-command for nearly thirty years and, despite the captain’s successes, Uriel still found it hard to accept his methods.

His mind was filled with contradictions and doubt as he pondered the ramifications of what had happened at Chordelis. In following the plan of Admiral Tiberius, they had exercised initiative and reacted to the developing situation with an original idea.
They had not referred to the Codex Astartes and, much as he hated to admit it, the Mortifactors were closer to the correct procedure as laid down in that holy tome. What then did that tell him?

And then you have the entire short story of Consequences.

I think these quotes show what McNeill thinks Codex adherent means. If it’s not in the Codex then don’t use it. Don’t invent a new situation if the Codex does not cover it. If the Ultramarines run into a new situation then they will be in trouble. They can’t innovate or adapt. Uriel is criticized in doing that.

Edited by Gree, 02 February 2012 - 11:11 PM.

[Marshal2 Crusaders]

Red Badge of Courage is one of the finest books on combat ever written. The author had never been in combat. Starship Troopers is one of the finest cmentaries on service ever written. He online served on a PT boat.

Heinlein did his research. I know that much.

I know he did. He wrote a damn good story, too. My point is research=/=experience. You and I have spent countless hours arguing over the past however many years about tactics and such, but has either one of us ever sat in a TOC? No. But we still have decent knowledge about the subject. Graham wasn't writing books about the Codex or strategy. He wasn't attempting to define what it was, he was using codex adherence as an antagonistic factor that caused conflict and allowed for the story to develop. It wasnt his intent to have what he wrote about the codex scrutinized so harshly. In the end it wasn't, because its still one of the best selling 40K novel series. Young teenagers and sweaty fa/tg/uys everywhere liked them, bought them, and kept buying them. He is a successful author, even if what he wrote doesn't mesh with our fairly restrictive view of 40K or real world knowledge.

Did you dislike Saving Private Ryan because it was a story about 8 guys who walked through German occupied France talking loudly and joking around? Or the fact that Cpt. Steele didnt run the Mogidishu Mile, but he did in the movie?

I did, but it didnt stop me from liking the movies.

I seriously doubt A D-B or Dan have spent much time studying FMs or strategy outside of a few read throughs and I doubt they have considerable interest in pracap.

My point is as long as it feels right, it helps the plot. It's only because you, having served, know the difference that it breaks your suspension of disbelief. You are a minority in the people who play 40K, though. How many sweaty neck beards have interest in ranger school or SOI? How many prefer call of duty to patrols and details?

There is a difference between writing cool battle scenes and having the Codex give clearly detrimental advice in contrived and frankly insane conditions. For example, the Codex will tell you to attack an enemy, even if it might endanger the campaign.

And in some situations the Codex will not cover anything, but McNeill has us believe it would not cover something as seemingly basic as improvised explosives or what to do if a company is understrength. And the Ultramarines can’t make original situations. There are several times in the first new novels where Uriel regards the idea of inventing a new situation something new and unfamiliar.

Most field manuals dont cover the 'how' to make improvised explosives, that comes from training. It just tells you 'when'.

I think these quotes show what McNeill thinks Codex adherent means. If it’s not in the Codex then don’t use it. Don’t invent a new situation if the Codex does not cover it. If the Ultramarines run into a new situation then they will be in trouble. They can’t innovate or adapt. Uriel is criticized in doing that.

I think those quotes show the conflict McNeill was trying to create so Uriel could resolve it. It was about the story, not the substance.

[Veteran Sergeant]

You're still missing the point. Allow me to help you out. Stephen Crane, in writing The Red Badge of Courage, wrote the story of a single private. It is a story of a human, not of a war. You need to realize that. And, he also did a lot of research. Also, Graham McNeill is not Stephen Crane, lol. Have you actually read Starship Troopers? It's a socio-political commentary, not a war novel. The battle scenes are short and abbreviated, mostly telling what happens, not how or why it happens. Again, these are the kinds of tools that good writers use when they know that they cannot believably write more detailed accounts.

McNeill could have easily written the Ultramarines stories to be about a single Ultramarines captain and his daring subordinates who go about their business of being big guys in big armor with big guns, smashing the assorted bad guys of the 40K universe. An effective writer can depict the basic known truths of armed combat relatively well (people shoot, people get shot, people die, then the battle ends, typically with one side winning and the other losing). There are good and bad levels of this (Ben Counter's hilariously bad Battle of the Abyss is a perfect example of combat scenes written without a single thought given to the greater staging of the battlespace), but nobody would ever mention the limitations of Graham McNeill's knowledge as a writer of military fiction except that he very specifically departed from the stage of the basic truths of combat and tried to delve deeper into military theory and application. The problem with tackling the subject of the Codex Astartes is that it is the work of a military genius without peer, and yet Graham McNeill writes about it with a level of knowledge that suggests he hasn't even read the Wikipedia entry for Sun Tzu's Art of War. If the Codex Astartes has been described, as far back as the 2nd Edition of 40K, to be the greatest treatise on warfare ever written, something that the vast majority of Space Marine chapters hold dear and is the major factor in their continuing success, and the Ultramarines are "the greatest" amongst these chapters, then it is fundamentally impossible for the Codex Astartes to also be their greatest weakness, not to mention fundamentally impossible to be anything like what Graham McNeill chose to describe it as. I can tell you, if I were going to write a novel about Space Marines that dealt specifically with the Codex Astartes, I'd probably start my research for that book by reading Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, etc so it would sound like I knew what I was walking about. I rather don't like looking like an idiot. Just as if I were to write a novel about the Alpha Legion, perhaps one of the modern small wars manuals that have been published by the Marine Corps or US Special Forces. On the other hand, if I'm just going to write a shoot-em up about the BGiBAwBGs, then I can probably just draw on my memories of war movies, action novels, and knowledge of the 40K universe and I'd be good to go.

I understand that some people won't care that the depiction of the Codex Astartes in McNeill's Ultramarines series of novels is absurtardedly bad and hopelessly impossible to be believable or plausible. They don't know anything about the subject either. That's fine. Like I said before, there's nothing about that that makes somebody a bad person.

But, again, you can't use that ignorance as a method of argument against people who who are more well versed in such. You use ADB's presumed ignorance as well, however, when you read his novels, he utilizes the technique I described above that Heinlein did. In his battles, events happen because he writes them that way. He doesn't presume to try and expound on the greater strategy involved in the waging of battle because it isn't as important as what happens. I am going to assume this is because Mr. Bowden recognizes his own limitations as an author and avoids writing to his weaknesses. We all have them. Ernest Hemingway wrote terrible female characters, and he is considered amongst the best of the modern authors and many of his books are established classics.

[Veteran Sergeant]

And, in the interest of fairness, I don't think Graham McNeill is a terrible writer. His style and language are rather good. I actually rather enjoyed A Thousand Sons. His Remembrancer characters were memorable and likable (until he forgot about them at the end or they were edited out, and left them without any satisfying resolution, lol), and I liked the Thousand Sons themselves. The story itself was engaging, the plot didn't seem forced and manufactured, etc. It's a good example of writing closer to his strengths. So it is important to note I'm only attacking the Ultramarines novels themselves for their poor and amateurish depiction of the Codex Astartes.

[Marshal2 Crusaders]

I had a less antagonistic post but the Internet ate it.

Don't get mad, but veterans who are 40k fans are such a small minority that ultimately it doesn't matter if you don't believe it.

I used to get so pissed when the novels wernt realistic I'd vent my anger here for hours but now I'm all about peace and realizing GW doesn't give a about what we want.

Edited by Marshal2 Crusaders, 03 February 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[Gree]

I had a less antagonistic post but the Internet ate it.

Don't get mad, but veterans who are 40k fans are such a small minority that ultimately it doesn't matter if you don't believe it.

I used to get so pissed when the novels wernt realistic I'd vent my anger here for hours but now I'm all about peace and realizing GW doesn't give a about what we want.

I am not so concerned with realism as much as having the Ultramarines and the Codex Astartes portrayed in a good light. But McNeill does not do that.

Edited by Gree, 03 February 2012 - 12:28 AM.

[Legatus]

I have not served. But when a supposed military genius writes doctrines in a manner so that they would make strict suggestions even in situations where the conditions might be completely different, then that is just not plausible to me. If the Chapter strictly adhering to such a restrictive set of rules can be one of the most successfull Chapters for ten thousand years, then that is just nor plausible to me. McNeill's Codex Astartes is not just bad because it conflicts with other descriptions of the Codex and it's value, it is bad because the concept he describes is not the least bit plausible. That mission parameters might change and then need a different approach is basic stuff.

Virtually all of his examples where the Codex fails are terribly contrived. The Codex does not permit the use of improvised explosives to take out a vital target. The Codex does not permit evacuating personell unless all equipment is accounted for. The Codex Astartes does not permit going to battle with anything but a fully loaded and equipped ship, or with anything other than a full battle company. If your ship or your company happens to be underequipped, tough luck. The Codex does not permit joint operations between Chapters, specifically the Captain of one Chapter taking temporary command over a suddenly leaderless unit of a different Chapter. The Codex demands that the enemy is attacked at every opportunity, even if that would give away an infiltrated unit. The Codex later somehow also demands that infiltrating units do not reveal their position, even if that would desparately neccessary to contact the rest of the force and save the campaign.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Hemingway's females weren't 'terrible', just incredibly biased

McNeill has improved ALOT since Nightbringer which was a good book! You say that Grimaldus was acting like a Templar in Helsreach?! PFWHAT!? He was not acting very Templarish at all until he matured/had realization/eureka!/o ya moment and from henceforth was Chaplain Smashface with Mace. Ventris had to change and struggle as a character and McNeill chose the Codex as that device. He could have gone to the RT fluff (or Goto) and had a Ultramarine-Space Elf love child, or Calgar bro'fisting the Avatar instead of setting his Pimp Hand to Slay. McNeill likely chose it because it was a non-fleshed out item that defined a Chapter (and an Era) and would likely be uncontroversial to talk about as someone so ably said earlier, it does not exist. We can theorize what it looks like, page smells, tastes, the ink used but...

Honsou talking about the Codex parallels the scene in Patton where George C Scott is kicking German butt in Africa screaming about how handsome Rommel is, complimenting his mother and saying he read his treatise on warfare. Honsou by knowing the operational patterns and procedures can set up situations where the Codex adherents will likely be predictable.

[Marshal2 Crusaders]

Maybe what Ventris is adhering to so strictly is SOPs, those are hard lined and can be fairly restrictive.

It could be Codex SOP for the Ultramarines to do something one way, and thats what Uriel keeps violating, without actually ruining the Philosophy part.

[Gree]

Hemingway's females weren't 'terrible', just incredibly biased

McNeill has improved ALOT since Nightbringer which was a good book! You say that Grimaldus was acting like a Templar in Helsreach?! PFWHAT!? He was not acting very Templarish at all until he matured/had realization/eureka!/o ya moment and from henceforth was Chaplain Smashface with Mace.

He was kinda depressed, but he was hardly going against his Chapter’s combat doctrine or core belief system.

Ventris had to change and struggle as a character and McNeill chose the Codex as that device. He could have gone to the RT fluff (or Goto) and had a Ultramarine-Space Elf love child, or Calgar bro'fisting the Avatar instead of setting his Pimp Hand to Slay. McNeill likely chose it because it was a non-fleshed out item that defined a Chapter (and an Era) and would likely be uncontroversial to talk about as someone so ably said earlier, it does not exist. We can theorize what it looks like, page smells, tastes, the ink used but...

The problem is that somebody like Ventris would not make a Sergant in the Ultramarines Chapter, let alone a Captain. Learchus is a much better example of an Ultramarine. (Although to be fair Ventris seemed ot be Codex adherent until he got promoted. Then he started deviating)

Honsou talking about the Codex parallels the scene in Patton where George C Scott is kicking German butt in Africa screaming about how handsome Rommel is, complimenting his mother and saying he read his treatise on warfare. Honsou by knowing the operational patterns and procedures can set up situations where the Codex adherents will likely be predictable.

I have already addressed this twice, but I’ll do so again if you somehow missed my prior posts.
Honsou would have to know how many ships Calgar has, how well trained those crews are, what military intellgience Calgar who, who is commanding and what their objectives are.

All of those will affect what decision Calgar would take.

Honsou may be able to use the broader tactical advice and may have a slight advantage against a Codex Chapter, but he would have to know everything about an enemy force and their military intelligence in order to predict them.

Maybe what Ventris is adhering to so strictly is SOPs, those are hard lined and can be fairly restrictive.

It could be Codex SOP for the Ultramarines to do something one way, and thats what Uriel keeps violating, without actually ruining the Philosophy part.

At several points in the Ventris books Ventris goes against the Codex Astartes because it offers explictly bad advice. At other times it simply offers no precedent and Ventris invents a new situation. But as I have established, McNeill says innovation is something the Ultramarines don't like, even if the Codex simply contains no precedent.

Edited by Gree, 03 February 2012 - 01:00 AM.