136 replies to this topic

[Iron Lord]

I'll give Abnett credit for coming up with a plausible way for the Word Bearers to actually present a credible threat to the Ultramarines, but in doing so it feels like he essentially re-wrote the entire story for the Ultramarines, taking them from merely being "too late" to intervene in the Heresy as opposed to now where they are too badly damaged.

They've been moving away from "too late" for a while though- remember Calth was at the beginning of the Heresy, and it took Horus nearly seven years to reach Terra. The whole idea in the 5E Space Marines Codex:

"Their very success had carried them far from Earth and isolated them from the conquering armies of Warmaster Horus in the north-east. News of Horus's treachery did not reach the Ultramarines until the attack on Earth was underway."

just doesn't work with that chronology.

Maybe all those war exercises in Rules of Engagement are to help prepare the Ultramarines for the task ahead of them- fighting their way to Terra bit by bit, without overreaching themselves after the damage they suffered at Calth.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I'll give Abnett credit for coming up with a plausible way for the Word Bearers to actually present a credible threat to the Ultramarines, but in doing so it feels like he essentially re-wrote the entire story for the Ultramarines, taking them from merely being "too late" to intervene in the Heresy as opposed to now where they are too badly damaged.

They've been moving away from "too late" for a while though- remember Calth was at the beginning of the Heresy, and it took Horus nearly seven years to reach Terra.

I mean, I'm cool with the idea of expanded numbers and a more coherent timeline, I just think they could have done it without significant alterations to the fluff. One of my biggest sticking points is that Calth happens so long after Istvaan V, when it should have occured more or less simultaneously. Horus didn't need the Word Bearers to win at Istvaan V. But, at the same time, the fluff has established they were there. What should have been done was to make it a detachment of the Word Bearers (they were huge, after all) were present at Istvaan V, but the bulk of them went to Calth instead to ambush the Ultramarines. This way you have an explanation for why Lorgar isn't present for the Battle of Calth (seems kind silly for him to miss his own big revenge), and you don't have to hand-wave a reason for the Ultramarines to have had no knowledge of the betrayal (omg more warp storms!) and the mobilization of seven loyal legions to combat four traitor ones (seems like kind of a big deal that would have been passed around, lol). The Word Bearers were huge as far as legions go, so they had the numbers to make it work.

Plus, the other problem is that the Word Bearers crippling the Ultramarines conflicts with the idea of them ending up with almost 2/3rds of the numbers of the Space Marines. We've known for a while that Horus cleverly prevented the Ultramarines from being able to intervene at Terra (which is fine as it has essentially the same effect as the "too far away" concept), but we also know that subsequently the Ultramarines were supposed to be at the forefront of the Scouring because they were the only intact force left (which they can't really be if they've been mauled to 40% strength or so at Calth). Space Marines take approximately ten years to develop into Scouts. Now, the process may have been shorter during the Great Crusade/Heresy/Scouring since the recruitment, selection, implementation and indoctrination process hadn't been codified by the Codex Astartes yet, but with their numbers so drastically reduced, suddenly now you have to explain how the Ultramarines both rebuilt their numbers and expanded in such a short timespan. Either that, or you have to continue overhauling the whole storyline. And at the rate the Horus Heresy novels are progressing, this will leave gaping plot holes that will exist in the fiction for years as new fluff irreconcilably contradicts the old. Not just in this case with the Ultramarines, but all over the overall narrative. Plus, I kinda liked the old implication that the Ultramarines managed to react to and defeat the Word Bearer's ambush. Guilliman was supposed to be a brilliant strategist and tactician. Lorgar getting his comeuppance by vastly underestimating his brother seems like a far more thematically satisfying end to the Battle of Calth than

Spoiler

both sides grinding the other into oblivion like we got in KNF. Plus, then the story fits right into the existing fluff. Horus knew Guilliman was his greatest threat, so he sends his most expendable ally (let's face it, the Word Bearers were probably the weakest of the Legions despite their numbers) to tie them up until he had taken Terra and could deal with them later.

Some of that's just personal preference on details, but it's hard to argue that it doesn't create a better cohesion with both the existing and the new vision of the Horus Heresy plot line.


I know it's a difficult task to tie this all in together in such an ambitious project. So I feel like I should temper my criticism somewhat. These just seem like pretty simple continuity problems that could have been avoided with a better laid out overall vision. They've been working on it for at least six years now.

Edited by Veteran Sergeant, 07 February 2012 - 10:58 PM.

[Epistolary Exander]

I'll give Abnett credit for coming up with a plausible way for the Word Bearers to actually present a credible threat to the Ultramarines, but in doing so it feels like he essentially re-wrote the entire story for the Ultramarines, taking them from merely being "too late" to intervene in the Heresy as opposed to now where they are too badly damaged.

They've been moving away from "too late" for a while though- remember Calth was at the beginning of the Heresy, and it took Horus nearly seven years to reach Terra.

I mean, I'm cool with the idea of expanded numbers and a more coherent timeline, I just think they could have done it without significant alterations to the fluff. One of my biggest sticking points is that Calth happens so long after Istvaan V, when it should have occured more or less simultaneously. Horus didn't need the Word Bearers to win at Istvaan V. But, at the same time, the fluff has established they were there. What should have been done was to make it a detachment of the Word Bearers (they were huge, after all) were present at Istvaan V, but the bulk of them went to Calth instead to ambush the Ultramarines. This way you have an explanation for why Lorgar isn't present for the Battle of Calth (seems kind silly for him to miss his own big revenge), and you don't have to hand-wave a reason for the Ultramarines to have had no knowledge of the betrayal (omg more warp storms!) and the mobilization of seven loyal legions to combat four traitor ones (seems like kind of a big deal that would have been passed around, lol). The Word Bearers were huge as far as legions go, so they had the numbers to make it work.

Plus, the other problem is that the Word Bearers crippling the Ultramarines conflicts with the idea of them ending up with almost 2/3rds of the numbers of the Space Marines. We've known for a while that Horus cleverly prevented the Ultramarines from being able to intervene at Terra (which is fine as it has essentially the same effect as the "too far away" concept), but we also know that subsequently the Ultramarines were supposed to be at the forefront of the Scouring because they were the only intact force left (which they can't really be if they've been mauled to 40% strength or so at Calth). Space Marines take approximately ten years to develop into Scouts. Now, the process may have been shorter during the Great Crusade/Heresy/Scouring since the recruitment, selection, implementation and indoctrination process hadn't been codified by the Codex Astartes yet, but with their numbers so drastically reduced, suddenly now you have to explain how the Ultramarines both rebuilt their numbers and expanded in such a short timespan. Either that, or you have to continue overhauling the whole storyline. And at the rate the Horus Heresy novels are progressing, this will leave gaping plot holes that will exist in the fiction for years as new fluff irreconcilably contradicts the old. Not just in this case with the Ultramarines, but all over the overall narrative. Plus, I kinda liked the old implication that the Ultramarines managed to react to and defeat the Word Bearer's ambush. Guilliman was supposed to be a brilliant strategist and tactician. Lorgar getting his comeuppance by vastly underestimating his brother seems like a far more thematically satisfying end to the Battle of Calth than

Spoiler

both sides grinding the other into oblivion like we got in KNF. Plus, then the story fits right into the existing fluff. Horus knew Guilliman was his greatest threat, so he sends his most expendable ally (let's face it, the Word Bearers were probably the weakest of the Legions despite their numbers) to tie them up until he had taken Terra and could deal with them later.

Some of that's just personal preference on details, but it's hard to argue that it doesn't create a better cohesion with both the existing and the new vision of the Horus Heresy plot line.


I know it's a difficult task to tie this all in together in such an ambitious project. So I feel like I should temper my criticism somewhat. These just seem like pretty simple continuity problems that could have been avoided with a better laid out overall vision. They've been working on it for at least six years now.

40% of 250000 is 100000, which is still a lot of marines. So many in fact that the UM would still be the size of an standard legion after Calth & considering how the rest of the loyalist legions sizes were severely curtailed due to the heavy fighting of the Heresy and the early Scouring. The UM should still be largest loyalist legion by quite a distance, and so would likely be the pre - eminant legion in the wake of the Heresy as most of the fluff implies. Considering the war footing the UM are meant to have been on during the Scouring, it makes sense that the UM would have suffered around 70000 dead marines if they only split into 20+ chapters during the 2nd founding.

Edited by Epistolary Exander, 08 February 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[calgar101]

In an interview regarding KNF Abnett says that the UM's exceed the 250,000 mark, 250,000 combat active legionnaires. In KNF 50,000 of those are spread throughout Ultramar, the UM's lose around 2/3rds of their strength at Calth, I make that to be around the 150,000 mark. Im not brilliant at maths. So 50,000 survive Calth and 50,000 were never there. Even after the mauling they take at Calth the UM's are the biggest legion. They have 500 or so worlds to draw recruitments and equipment from and I'd wager that Ultramar's military machine went into over drive in the wake of Calth.

I see no problems regarding their numbers at all..

[Epistolary Exander]

In an interview regarding KNF Abnett says that the UM's exceed the 250,000 mark, 250,000 combat active legionnaires. In KNF 50,000 of those are spread throughout Ultramar, the UM's lose around 2/3rds of their strength at Calth, I make that to be around the 150,000 mark. Im not brilliant at maths. So 50,000 survive Calth and 50,000 were never there. Even after the mauling they take at Calth the UM's are the biggest legion. They have 500 or so worlds to draw recruitments and equipment from and I'd wager that Ultramar's military machine went into over drive in the wake of Calth.

I see no problems regarding their numbers at all..

Using the above figures, the UM after Calth would weigh in around 117000 +/- 20000 (Im guessing the error to relatively large) that would still comfortably make the UM largest of 2nd largest legion depending on how badly the Word Beareres are mauled over the course of the Heresy. When you consider the mauling the SofH, 1K Sons, DG, WE & EC have taken in the opening battles of the Heresy the UM would pose a severe threat to Horus if they could ever face his legions in battle.

[Gree]

200,000 Ultramarines are deployed at Calth. At one point a techpriest manages to establish contact late in the battle and she mentions she can contact less than 30,000 Astartes IIRC. Leaving the implication that at least 170,000 Ultramarines died during the battle.

Using the above figures, the UM after Calth would weigh in around 117000 +/- 20000 (Im guessing the error to relatively large) that would still comfortably make the UM largest of 2nd largest legion depending on how badly the Word Beareres are mauled over the course of the Heresy. When you consider the mauling the SofH, 1K Sons, DG, WE & EC have taken in the opening battles of the Heresy the UM would pose a severe threat to Horus if they could ever face his legions in battle.

If he had a full 80,000 Astartes to deploy then yes, however the 500 worlds require 50,000 Astartes to garrison, leaving Guilliman with less than 30,000 Astartes to attack Horus.

Erebus basically flat out said at the end of the book that the Ultramarines were no longer a threat to Horus.

Edited by Gree, 08 February 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[calgar101]

Is that contact less than 30,000 Ultramarines because there is 30,000 or less left or because communications are not the best? Even so Guilliman still has a legion left and the infrastructure in place to replenish losses faster than any legion. Even if the Ultramarines have taken a harder hit in the new (and official) version of the Battle for Calth it isn't a bad thing, it gives more of a reason as to why Guillman couldn't exactly just head straight for Terra.

Reasons he couldn't get to Terra

1- Biggest warp storm seen since the Age of Strife engulfs the galaxy.
2- The Ultramarines fleet and the fleets of any Imperial Navy or Mechanicus is devastated at Calth.
3- Even though he still has a good sized legion left (compared to those of his brothers) Guilliman cannot spare them, Ultramar and the Eastern Fringe need to be defended against the rebellion and other threats.

Guilliman is caught between a rock and a hard place.

[Ethrion]

Erebus basically flat out said at the end of the book that the Ultramarines were no longer a threat to Horus.

Yes, but that can also be viewed as Erebus' own arrogance in thinking that the job was finished and the Ultramarines were done. As we know, enough Ultramarines end up on the way to Terra (along with other legions) to force Horus' hand.

From other sources as well we are told that Ultramarine reinforcements arrive at Calth from Macragge and route the Word Bearers. So there must be more than just the survivors left down on the planet after the ground war.

Oh, and I really liked how the mark of censure becomes the mark of squad sergeants, that was very cool! IMO the best HH book yet. The initial trilogy still being up there obviously.

Spoiler

the mark's still running

Edited by Ethrion, 08 February 2012 - 10:05 PM.

[Veteran Sergeant]

The problem is, and I addressed this in my earlier place, that the new fluff makes a lot of the old fluff impossible. But, it also leaves giant question marks. We no longer know if the Ultramarines even head to Earth. And from Graham McNeill's (terrible) short story Rules of Engagement, the implication is that may not.

[DarkChaplain]

I mean, I'm cool with the idea of expanded numbers and a more coherent timeline, I just think they could have done it without significant alterations to the fluff. One of my biggest sticking points is that Calth happens so long after Istvaan V, when it should have occured more or less simultaneously. Horus didn't need the Word Bearers to win at Istvaan V. But, at the same time, the fluff has established they were there. What should have been done was to make it a detachment of the Word Bearers (they were huge, after all) were present at Istvaan V, but the bulk of them went to Calth instead to ambush the Ultramarines. This way you have an explanation for why Lorgar isn't present for the Battle of Calth (seems kind silly for him to miss his own big revenge), and you don't have to hand-wave a reason for the Ultramarines to have had no knowledge of the betrayal (omg more warp storms!) and the mobilization of seven loyal legions to combat four traitor ones (seems like kind of a big deal that would have been passed around, lol). The Word Bearers were huge as far as legions go, so they had the numbers to make it work.

Read Aurelian and The First Heretic.
Lorgar was told a few things in Aurelian, including that

Spoiler

he could either travel to Calth and KILL Guilliman, have his personal revenge and triumph, but that would have resulted in his absence at Terra, which would have led to the defeat of the Traitor Legions. Instead he could let some of his sons, led by Kor Phaeron, go to Calth and damage the Ultramarines, but make sure the rest of his Legion, Cultists and so on would be available when needed

.
Also, he and the World Eaters seem to have something going on, which will hopefully be expanded on in Butcher's Nails and Betrayer.

Horus knew Guilliman was his greatest threat, so he sends his most expendable ally (let's face it, the Word Bearers were probably the weakest of the Legions despite their numbers) to tie them up until he had taken Terra and could deal with them later. Some of that's just personal preference on details, but it's hard to argue that it doesn't create a better cohesion with both the existing and the new vision of the Horus Heresy plot line.

Again, read TFH and Aurelian. Lorgar and the Word Bearers have grown much stronger since around Isstvan, to the point where Lorgar gets extremely pissed at Horus' council, shocking even the Warmaster himself. Magnus, who only used psychic means to attend felt how strong Lorgar had become and how he finally got a grip. Lorgar and the Word Bearers might still be considered weak by the other Legions, but they are not.

[Liquidice]

Yes by the time Aurelian ends, Lorgar does not resemble his former doubtful self. He is strong and confident with chaos on his side.

As for the number debate,

Spoiler

It was stated that many of the battlebarges themselves did not get destroyed because the Word Bearers needed to bolster their fleet, I believe a good bit of the legion was on the battlebarges with the rest hiding (or already hiding) to prevent harmful radiation form the dead sun

As for why it took him so long to get to terra:

Spoiler

The first targets of the word bearers were the troop transports and supply vessels, the UM's had to have made time to resupply and rearm/repair themselves

[b1soul]

Leaving the implication that at least 170,000 Ultramarines died during the battle.

That seems a tad bit high...I'm going to go with faulty communications

[Veteran Sergeant]

I mean, I'm cool with the idea of expanded numbers and a more coherent timeline, I just think they could have done it without significant alterations to the fluff. One of my biggest sticking points is that Calth happens so long after Istvaan V, when it should have occured more or less simultaneously. Horus didn't need the Word Bearers to win at Istvaan V. But, at the same time, the fluff has established they were there. What should have been done was to make it a detachment of the Word Bearers (they were huge, after all) were present at Istvaan V, but the bulk of them went to Calth instead to ambush the Ultramarines. This way you have an explanation for why Lorgar isn't present for the Battle of Calth (seems kind silly for him to miss his own big revenge), and you don't have to hand-wave a reason for the Ultramarines to have had no knowledge of the betrayal (omg more warp storms!) and the mobilization of seven loyal legions to combat four traitor ones (seems like kind of a big deal that would have been passed around, lol). The Word Bearers were huge as far as legions go, so they had the numbers to make it work.

Read Aurelian and The First Heretic.
Lorgar was told a few things in Aurelian, including that

Spoiler

he could either travel to Calth and KILL Guilliman, have his personal revenge and triumph, but that would have resulted in his absence at Terra, which would have led to the defeat of the Traitor Legions. Instead he could let some of his sons, led by Kor Phaeron, go to Calth and damage the Ultramarines, but make sure the rest of his Legion, Cultists and so on would be available when needed

.
Also, he and the World Eaters seem to have something going on, which will hopefully be expanded on in Butcher's Nails and Betrayer.

Horus knew Guilliman was his greatest threat, so he sends his most expendable ally (let's face it, the Word Bearers were probably the weakest of the Legions despite their numbers) to tie them up until he had taken Terra and could deal with them later. Some of that's just personal preference on details, but it's hard to argue that it doesn't create a better cohesion with both the existing and the new vision of the Horus Heresy plot line.

Again, read TFH and Aurelian. Lorgar and the Word Bearers have grown much stronger since around Isstvan, to the point where Lorgar gets extremely pissed at Horus' council, shocking even the Warmaster himself. Magnus, who only used psychic means to attend felt how strong Lorgar had become and how he finally got a grip. Lorgar and the Word Bearers might still be considered weak by the other Legions, but they are not.

I read both books. The thing is this: Lorgar got more powerful. His Legion did not. You can't just replace decades of lost experience in a couple years. While the Word Bearers were taking their time on worlds raising up their religion, the other legions were out actually fighting and winning wars. They would still have been the least experienced of the Legions, and in the very books you mentioned, Lorgar himself says he'd never be as good of a general as Guilliman or Lion El' Johnson. Chaos may have opened up Lorgar to his powers, but it wasn't going to make the Word Bearers suddenly the battle hardened veterans the other Legions would have become. And Lorgar wasn't even present at Calth, so his own individual powers are somewhat irrelevant. And it showed. Despite having complete surprise and legions of demons, and eventual numerical equity (possibly superiority), the Word Bearers were routed and annihilated at Calth.

And actually, in Aurelian, Lorgar was also told that one of the stories he was told was a lie. So it's just as likely that they convinced him not to go to Calth because they knew that he'd be killed with the rest of the Word Bearers who went there when Guilliman inevitably defeated them. Because remember, he was told that if he went to Calth, he would get to slay Guilliman, but that he would also lose the war. So he chose to go to Terra instead, and Chaos still lost the war. However, the Battle of Terra managed to "slay" the Emperor and stop humanity's expansion, which was part of what they wanted (a win for Chaos, a loss for Lorgar). The Chaos gods were playing with Lorgar as much as they did the rest of the traitor primarchs. Simply manipulating him to do what they wanted. Lorgar lost either way he went, so it's hard to take everything he was told at face value. It's most likely they chose to lie to him about his chances at Calth in order to convince him to lend the weight of his powers to Terra. Lorgar was an angry emo kid. He just wanted to be accepted and respected... by somebody. The Emperor didn't give it to him, so he went to Chaos instead, and they were willing to stroke his ego.

[A D-B]

The thing is this: Lorgar got more powerful. His Legion did not. You can't just replace decades of lost experience in a couple years. While the Word Bearers were taking their time on worlds raising up their religion, the other legions were out actually fighting and winning wars.

A gross and massively incorrect generalisation, with a hefty dose of assumption.

Chaos may have opened up Lorgar to his powers, but it wasn't going to make the Word Bearers suddenly the battle hardened veterans the other Legions would have become.

Likewise.

And Lorgar wasn't even present at Calth, so his own individual powers are somewhat irrelevant. And it showed. Despite having complete surprise and legions of demons, and eventual numerical equity (possibly superiority), the Word Bearers were routed and annihilated at Calth.

Sort of. The Word Bearers had no primarch, and half their Legion, against an Ultramarines force that had a primarch, was on its home turf, and was four or five times their size. The Word Bearers may have had the advantage of surprise, as well as daemons and cultists, but let's not pretend the Ultramarines were in bad shape. It's just as easy to say the Word Bearers would've struggled against those odds, and just as true.

Lorgar was an angry emo kid.

If people talk that stupidly about Guilliman, are you one of the Ultramarine fans that points it out and gets annoyed, or...? It's just that you seem to massively simplify things in favour of an interpretation that benefits the faction you like. It looks pretty unbalanced.

Edited by A D-B, 09 February 2012 - 04:28 PM.

[A D-B]

IIRC it was A D-B who had suggested a while ago that the big advantage of the Ultramarines was that "Guilliman was there but Lorga wasn't", but really the situation was the same for the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers. Primarch directing the fleet...

It was definitely one of the big advantages. There's every chance it would've gone differently had Lorgar been there. Calth was a huge gamble for the Word Bearers, overall.

Edited by A D-B, 09 February 2012 - 04:39 PM.

[greatcrusade08]

Lorgar was an angry emo kid.

If people talk that stupidly about Guilliman, are you one of the Ultramarine fans that points it out and gets annoyed, or...? It's just that you seem to massively simplify things in favour of an interpretation that benefits the faction you like. It looks pretty unbalanced.

veteran sergeant doesnt speak for the ultramarines sub-forum.. infact i would go as far to say hes damaging to us

i wonder if lorgar knew clath would fail, we know he had the choice, destory guilliman and fail or leave him be and suceed.. but i wonder if he knew the gambit would fail? (which is why only half the legion went under kor phaeron)

edit: you have to hand it to them though, going up against a greater force on thier home ground.. attacking by surprise was a little cowardly, but tactically savvy

Edited by greatcrusade08, 09 February 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[calgar101]

Lorgar wasn't an 'emo' kid he was a misunderstood super being who was struggling to find his place in the order of things. I agree with Veteran Sergeant in that Lorgar grew stronger however though since their humbling on Monarchia the Word Bearers did through themselves into the thick of the fighting. It wouldn't be fair to say that the legionnaires of the Ultramarines out classed the Word Bearers or vice versa. What really tipped Calth in their favour was the fact that they had the element of surprise. For example their fleet was battle ready whilst the Ultramarines/Army fleet was powered down and docked in the 'safety' of their ports.

If the Ultramarines knew Calth was coming well the Word Bearers would have lost. With or without Lorgar.

[Mr.Havoc]

The Word Bearers are still Space Marines, they are just as deadly and well trained as there brother Marines, experience gained by the other Legions was against Xenos, and human empires, war between the Space Marines was never even thought of

Spoiler

and was a punishable offence for even thinking of methods and tactics to take down a Space Marine, as by Thiel's experience

. The only ones who could claim they have experience in those matters were the Wolves but even then, that is to be taken as face value.

Too be honest I find the Word Bearers to be the most dangerous of all Legions, the reason for this is there faith, and devotion to a higher power they will stop at nothing to appease, regardless of the cost to themselves,

Spoiler

as with the Word Bearer commander who goaded the Ultras to kill him, which was in fact a well placed trap so he could unleash the power of Samus who was hitching a ride in his meat suit. And also to the countless cultists who strapped bombs to their chests who charged at fortifications

. They may not have the tactical know how like the other Legions, but they more than make up for it with their devotion and belief in thier actions.

[A D-B]

I'll give Abnett credit for coming up with a plausible way for the Word Bearers to actually present a credible threat to the Ultramarines, but in doing so it feels like he essentially re-wrote the entire story for the Ultramarines, taking them from merely being "too late" to intervene in the Heresy as opposed to now where they are too badly damaged. Some of us had been reading the fluff for almost twenty years or so now. It seems like these stories can be written without complete re-imaginings while still leaving the authors creative room for their own interpretations.

That's actually a very good point. The problem, though, is basically this:

IP: The war really lasted seven years.

HH TEAM: That hasn't been presented all that well in the past...

IP: Nope. But make it convincing. It needs to last 7 years. Update things to make sense.

HH TEAM: Okay...

[greatcrusade08]

No offense, because you seem like a good guy, but you're a writer of war stories, and I am a Marine, maker of them.

hmm i wonder who id rather write war stories
im sorry but in a fictional setting about super heroes how deos your resume matter, impressive as it is?

No, in a handful of years the Word Bearers aren't going to become the equal of the other legions who have been fighting constantly for decades, if not centuries. Every single one of the Ultramarines sergeants would have had more cumulative battle experience than most of the Word Bearers' captains. How do we know what the Word Bearers were doing? Well, the Emperor did say it in your novel, lol. But, also we have almost twenty years of Word Bearers fluff too that's pretty consistent with that idea.

it might be true tactically, they werent as well drilled, but a marine is a marine is a marine.. and then you have a marine with a point to prove and whos starting to be affected by the warp.
theres nothing more dangerous than a warrior whos willing to die for his cause. Of course the ultramarines were fighting for thier home, which is somewhat of a pyschological equaliser

You have the emo kid, who already hates the Ultramarines.

Emo signifies 'fake' personality, someone who pretends to be depressed because chicks dig depressed guys.. Lorgar was angry sure, but always true to himself, even if it caused confusion.. he needed to find his purpose which is why he never joined the attack on calth.
no lorgar wasnt emo, far from it

His legion is inexperienced, not really good at anything except proselytizing, but there are a lot of them and they have a bunch of disorganized, unreliable, rambling lunatics with them that are probably not very useful next to your battle hardened Imperial Army regiments.

his legion may not be as experienced as the ultras/IF/raven whatever, but that doesnt mean they were green troops.. a 20 year vet can be just as dangerous as a 40 year vet

When Guilliman inevitably destroys them, you haven't lost much, and they have the numbers to hopefully do enough damage to the Ultramarines to temporarily remove them from the equation.

it seems a weird argument.. the WBs were weak and unimportant ye they were capable of besting ultramarines in ultramar

And can we really call Calth home turf?

uhh yes.. england is my home turf, even if i havent been to every town.. if someone attacks engalnd i defend it with my life

Calling Lorgar the angry emo kid isn't an insult so much as a succinct way to describe him.

see above.. your wrong

[calgar101]

There have been a few lore changes already in the HH series, that is the nature of the beast. KNF sheds new light on the Battle for Calth and now we have a plausible reason for the Ultramarines being unable to aid the loyalist on Terra.

[Mr.Havoc]

There have been a few lore changes already in the HH series, that is the nature of the beast. KNF sheds new light on the Battle for Calth and now we have a plausible reason for the Ultramarines being unable to aid the loyalist on Terra.

Which is awesome, as it will hopefully stop the "Guilliman did nothing and is the true traitor" arguments, which has been bugging the Ultras since God knows when.

[calgar101]

Exactly Havoc. Ever since the HH was introduced we've been told that the Ultramarines were prevented from reaching Terra because of warp storms and Terra's distance, Horus ordering them to the Eastern Fringe and the Word Bearers trap. Now all those reasons have been used and brought together in one book, with the Ultramarines now having suffered a great deal more than we thought at the hands of the traitors. This 'latest' addition is not bad at all, it strengthens their reason for being out of action for some time.

[A D-B]

There have been a few lore changes already in the HH series, that is the nature of the beast. KNF sheds new light on the Battle for Calth and now we have a plausible reason for the Ultramarines being unable to aid the loyalist on Terra.

Which is awesome, as it will hopefully stop the "Guilliman did nothing and is the true traitor" arguments, which has been bugging the Ultras since God knows when.

Definitely glad to see that one go.

The Ultramarines have some pretty thrilling heroics ahead of them, even if they don't reach Terra. Count on it.

And some other defeats, too. Nature of the game, and all that.

[calgar101]

Of course, I wouldn't like to read a book where one side is wiping the floor with the enemy. This is why you're a great author (no intended boot licking here) you seem to 'get' the 40k universe and the main protagonists in your stories never seem to win hands down. I expect the Ultramarines to suffer more losses since we know that when they do eventually head for Terra they get involved in a lot of fighting on the way.