136 replies to this topic

[Mr.Havoc]

As long as the Khan and the White Scars get some loving somewhere, everyone else has been touched, and in the progress of being touched except for the Khan and his Scars

[calgar101]

I'm looking forwards to a White Scars novel, both them and The Khan have been described pretty much as bad asses every time they are mentioned.. I'm a little confused of Guillimans view, I always imagined them to be quite close. Out of Guilliman's dauntless few I don't quite understand why Ferrus is there..

[Apothecary Vaddon]

As long as the Khan and the White Scars get some loving somewhere, everyone else has been touched, and in the progress of being touched except for the Khan and his Scars

Even if it's just a short, yes. Need more Khan.

[greatcrusade08]

There have been a few lore changes already in the HH series, that is the nature of the beast. KNF sheds new light on the Battle for Calth and now we have a plausible reason for the Ultramarines being unable to aid the loyalist on Terra.

Which is awesome, as it will hopefully stop the "Guilliman did nothing and is the true traitor" arguments, which has been bugging the Ultras since God knows when.

Definitely glad to see that one go.

The Ultramarines have some pretty thrilling heroics ahead of them, even if they don't reach Terra. Count on it.

And some other defeats, too. Nature of the game, and all that.

which is great news.
a part of me hopes to see them post heresy, during the scouring.. i think that will show thier character

[calgar101]

What are we discussing now? This has seemingly gone quite off topic.

One bit that I liked from Know No Fear was the political and military power Guilliman wields. Some of these are based on characters own perceptions but Guillimans mastery of strategy and logistics is hinted and pointed out a few times (well it has been pointed out a few times during the series). Ultramar to me seems the new frontier (some one else described it like that), a place to go have a better life. I liked the fact that the Ultramarines have invented a new suit of power armour too.

[JamesI]

Due to inappropriate posts, this thread is going to be temporarily closed pending investigation.

[JamesI]

This topic is now open again.

Any inappropriate or off topic posting will be dealt with with warnings and the thread closing made permanent.

Edited by JamesI, 13 February 2012 - 12:44 AM.

[Legatus]

IIRC it was A D-B who had suggested a while ago that the big advantage of the Ultramarines was that "Guilliman was there but Lorga wasn't", but really the situation was the same for the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers. Primarch directing the fleet...

It was definitely one of the big advantages. There's every chance it would've gone differently had Lorgar been there. Calth was a huge gamble for the Word Bearers, overall.

I am curious, since in the Collected Visions description Lorgar had been there, was there any particular reason why Dan Abnett or the Horus Heresy team decided to write him out of the battle?

[A D-B]

IIRC it was A D-B who had suggested a while ago that the big advantage of the Ultramarines was that "Guilliman was there but Lorga wasn't", but really the situation was the same for the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers. Primarch directing the fleet...

It was definitely one of the big advantages. There's every chance it would've gone differently had Lorgar been there. Calth was a huge gamble for the Word Bearers, overall.

I am curious, since in the Collected Visions description Lorgar had been there, was there any particular reason why Dan Abnett or the Horus Heresy team decided to write him out of the battle?

Even in the IA article, it's kinda vague; there's stuff about Lorgar being in the system, or in Ultramar in general - which in turn is balanced by the equally vague stuff in Collected Visions, and so on. We made a list of where all the primarchs were at what times, across various sources, and basically chose which versions to go with. It took a while. There's very little changed, as Lorgar is still in Ultramar, as noted. He's still leading his Legion's overall attack in Ultramar, as well.

One of the main aims of the Heresy series in the future is to show the Signus Primes and Calths that no one has ever seen before. As someone with a lot of love for the lore, there are still times when you have to step back and see how some of it was written by game designers with no real sense of all this jazz needing to form a narrative, or a need to make stuff link up and make sense within a larger scheme. The Ultramarines' defining battle happening in the first year of a 7-year war, f'rex, is something that's just not going to play out, I'm almost certain of it. They've got a lot more stuff to do yet.

[Nachocuban]

I just finished this book, and I honestly think its one of the best books I've read in the past few years, and I read a lot of books. The way the whole book is portrayed, as third person, even from inside someones head, was just great.

[Legatus]

Even in the IA article, it's kinda vague; there's stuff about Lorgar being in the system, or in Ultramar in general - which in turn is balanced by the equally vague stuff in Collected Visions, and so on. We made a list of where all the primarchs were at what times, across various sources, and basically chose which versions to go with. It took a while. There's very little changed, as Lorgar is still in Ultramar, as noted. He's still leading his Legion's overall attack in Ultramar, as well.

Ah, ok then. From some of the posts in this thread I got the impression that Lorgar wasn't there at all.

(Also, while the Index Astartes of the Word Bearers does not mention Lorgar's involvement, neither does it mention Guilliman's. The Collected Visions describes Guilliman's actions, and it also points out that Lorgar was commanding the Word Bearers fleet. It was still Kor Phaeron vs. Captain Ventanus on the surface of Calth.)

[Lord Ragnarok]

Finished this book yesterday. I was dismayed half way through the book because it was so good I just knew it was going to have a terrible, weird, or incomplete ending. I'm glad my misgivings were miss-placed .

I think the build up to the action was some of the best in this series. I was on nail biting edge. And I especially loved the interaction between Tchure and Luciel, and being in the mind of Telemechrus.


Good stuff!

[Wrath of Terra]

Most of the big things I liked in this book have already been mentioned so one of the smaller things I really loved was the contrast in how Guilliman and the Ultras dealt with the shock of having the Word Bearers turn on them.

Most Ultras, while shocked, reacted as they'd been trained and tried to approach it as they would any other conflict.

Roboute on the other hand goes a small bit berserk - it is his brother turning on him after all - and even says at one point something to the effect that just this once he was going to let his emotion drive him, not his head. I liked that he was human enough to do that and not some sort of robot and I liked the fact that while he was doing that his Ultras responded to the crisis in a manner that they knew he would want them to.

I also loved the fact that Ollanius Pious has been retconned into the lore again! An utter master-stroke from Dan and one I, as a long-term Ollanius fan, got giddy over when Grammaticus called Oll too pius and I dared to hope...

Bravo!

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Probably gonna get some flame here but I have to be honest.

The battle scenes where awesome, the human characters well written and Dan is yet again, unafraid to kill characters off which gives realism to a work.

However I don't think Dan Abnett writes astartes very well. At times the Ultramarines come across as Imperial Guard troopers, they are too Human and I don't think the author has a full appreciation of the transhuman mindset that others do.

I don't mean to be negatative, Dan Abnett is one of my all time fave authors, but I read Know no fear and found the characters wanting a little.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Probably gonna get some flame here but I have to be honest.

The battle scenes where awesome, the human characters well written and Dan is yet again, unafraid to kill characters off which gives realism to a work.

However I don't think Dan Abnett writes astartes very well. At times the Ultramarines come across as Imperial Guard troopers, they are too Human and I don't think the author has a full appreciation of the transhuman mindset that others do.

I don't mean to be negatative, Dan Abnett is one of my all time fave authors, but I read Know no fear and found the characters wanting a little.

He does seem to have trouble writing about Space Marines. It's why he adds more normal humans in his stories probably. That said, It is very hard to motivate the reader to like Space Marines if they are too inhuman.

For me I prefer them multifaceted, and not so emotionless. Makes a better read.

Edited by Lord Ragnarok, 14 February 2012 - 12:28 AM.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

You know, one of the biggest revelations for me was actually that Dreadnoughts don't fear the pain - they fear the sleep. Dunno if that's been in some other fluff somewhere. Also, falling from orbit and surviving is AWESOME. Makes for some real good material on Star Wars vs. 40k and Star Trek vs. 40k debates, hahaha.

[Wolf Lord Kieran]

You know, one of the biggest revelations for me was actually that Dreadnoughts don't fear the pain - they fear the sleep. Dunno if that's been in some other fluff somewhere. Also, falling from orbit and surviving is AWESOME. Makes for some real good material on Star Wars vs. 40k and Star Trek vs. 40k debates, hahaha.

The same idea is mentioned in Prospero Burns...when Hawser is first in the "darkness" a dreadnought named Cormek said something to the effect of "nobody likes it in the darkness, now be quiet because your bothering me"

WLK

[DarKnight]

People like regurgitating the whole, "Abnett can't write Space Marines" argument. What exactly am I missing? What, in his depiction of Astartes is he doing wrong that other BL authors do to that much of a better degree? I require illumination brothers. Secondly, I enjoyed the repartee between Guilliman & Lorgar in the holo-chamber, and I can understand Lorgar wanting to rub his brother's face in it a little bit since he chose to not travel to Ultramar. But is it tactically sound to even tell the XIII Legion what's occurring in the rest of the galaxy? They would have found out eventually, but it is a piece of information that your enemy would otherwise not have.

Edited by DarKnight, 14 February 2012 - 04:14 AM.

[Billuriye]

He probably writes them less autistic compared to Grimaldus, Talos etc. I was fine with the potrayals of Ultras personally. Loken however i can admit he was too humane. Maybe that was his gist.

Edited by Billuriye, 14 February 2012 - 06:26 AM.

[Legatus]

People like regurgitating the whole, "Abnett can't write Space Marines" argument. What exactly am I missing? What, in his depiction of Astartes is he doing wrong that other BL authors do to that much of a better degree?

Well, when people say that "Dan Abnett can't write Space Marines" (I personally have not read his Space Marine books yet), they don't mean that everyone else can, rather they mean that he cannot do so either. Because virtually no one can. A D-B's Night Lord noves have been the best effort so far (almost perfect except for a few lapses), but then Traitors would be slightly different than loyalists. My personal opinion, of course. everyone might have a different idea of how Space Marines behave.

[Greyall]

He probably writes them less autistic compared to Grimaldus, Talos etc. I was fine with the potrayals of Ultras personally. Loken however i can admit he was too humane. Maybe that was his gist.

My view is that the surgical mind-tampering works more on the fearlessness of a Space Marine than on their loyalty and other aspects. Things like being inquisitive, rational or impulse pretty much remain with each individual.

Grimaldus has all the traits of a true knight, with his search and near obsession with honour, something easily found in real-world human cultures of old (look at the Japanese in WWII and their custom of committing suicide in the face of defeat), so he seems a bit "narrow-minded", perhaps, but he definitely thinks things through and is lost in his mind, and that's not something a programmed being does.

Talos, I don't see how he's autistic, the man's an overthinker - although he isn't lacking on the action side of things.

Back on Know no Fear, and while we're speaking of displays of humanity by Space Marines, what do you guys think on Guilliman's tone when he's at the holo room with Lorgar and the Word Bearer Captains - it's the second excerpt? It's a different Ultramarines Primarch, this one, compared to the one who razed Monarchia. In here, Guilliman is almost apologetic and much more concerned with his brotherhood with Lorgar. Is Guilliman that different when on duty?

Having not read Know no Fear, I can't say what he's like during the rest of the engagement: the living statue of The First Heretic or a more down-to-earth guy?

[Billuriye]

Back on Know no Fear, and while we're speaking of displays of humanity by Space Marines, what do you guys think on Guilliman's tone when he's at the holo room with Lorgar and the Word Bearer Captains - it's the second excerpt? It's a different Ultramarines Primarch, this one, compared to the one who razed Monarchia. In here, Guilliman is almost apologetic and much more concerned with his brotherhood with Lorgar. Is Guilliman that different when on duty?

Having not read Know no Fear, I can't say what he's like during the rest of the engagement: the living statue of The First Heretic or a more down-to-earth guy?

Spoiler

He didn't strike me as different. He says if Lorgar wasn't his brother, he would be a political embarassment and he would know how to deal with him. I think he's just frustrated than apologetic. He's certainly not a down-to-earth guy but not a overblown pompous git either.

[A D-B]

Back on Know no Fear, and while we're speaking of displays of humanity by Space Marines, what do you guys think on Guilliman's tone when he's at the holo room with Lorgar and the Word Bearer Captains - it's the second excerpt? It's a different Ultramarines Primarch, this one, compared to the one who razed Monarchia. In here, Guilliman is almost apologetic and much more concerned with his brotherhood with Lorgar. Is Guilliman that different when on duty?

Having not read Know no Fear, I can't say what he's like during the rest of the engagement: the living statue of The First Heretic or a more down-to-earth guy?

Spoiler

He didn't strike me as different. He says if Lorgar wasn't his brother, he would be a political embarassment and he would know how to deal with him. I think he's just frustrated than apologetic. He's certainly not a down-to-earth guy but not a overblown pompous git either.

I like that a lot, because of the symmetry it has with what's coming next. Guilliman is essentially angry with the man he thinks is his brother. He's furious at Lorgar, as if Lorgar was still the same guy he'd been 50 years before (which, to Guilliman, with no evidence to the contrary, Lorgar most certainly is). It ignores the successes of the Word Bearers Legion after Monarchia, and it ignores the changes Lorgar has gone through over the decades in secret. That's all good. But, most importantly, it ignores the changes Lorgar has gone through in the year since Isstvan. (Again, obviously - as Guilliman has no way of knowing about them.)

Meanwhile, Lorgar and Angron are actually Elsewhere, doing Other Things in Ultramar. And Lorgar now is a vastly different being to the one who perhaps deserved those accusations by his brother.

I love the poetry of that moment, and I see several memorable payoffs coming from it down the line.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Meanwhile, Lorgar and Angron are actually Elsewhere, doing Other Things in Ultramar.

(blinks) Huh, what???

[Wrath of Terra]

Meanwhile, Lorgar and Angron are actually Elsewhere, doing Other Things in Ultramar. And Lorgar now is a vastly different being to the one who perhaps deserved those accusations by his brother.

All the Ultras bases are belong to Angron and Lorgar!