47 replies to this topic

[1000heathens]

Oh, one more thing I just thought of...

A Sane Dreadnought....Do you hear me, GW?!?! Make it a purchasable option, whatever, just let me be able to make a Malcharion that won't snap and obliterate a squad!!!

[witchunter kraine]

Yeah I like the Night Haunter (corrupt) Night Lords too because it takes a bunch of insane psychopathic murders and makes them five hundred times worse. Especially since the "traitor but pure" thing is starting to get picked up by the Alpha Legion. Copycats.

Who said anything about pure? There's been two alpha legion centric (ish) novels in the horus heresy series and they simply give another reason why they may have turned. It has been 10,000 years, I think some of us may have skipped the "save the universe" memo

[Kol_Saresk]

Pure as in no taint and no true corruption. They use the pawns of Chaos as their own pawns but they do not participate in the actual service to Chaos. That's what I meant.

[Excessus]

If we are talking about the Alpha Legion then remember this. Even if they had secretly sided with the big E 10k years earlier, that is hardly the same thing as siding with the current IoM! If the big E would suddenly awake, he would most likely be appalled over what his imperium had become, and the AL are no different. If they somehow(although unlikely) sided with the goodguys back then, they would never EVER side with the current IoM, it's waaaay too far away from their ideals...

Corrupted, yes they are...but in spirit and purpose. They aren't living in the eye so they have few mutations, but who in their right mind would turn down such a nice "ace in the sleeve" as summoning daemons? Alpha Legion thrives on tactical diversity, they have been known to have DP:s and Possessed when it suits their needs...and cultists can summon daemons just fine...

[Kol_Saresk]

I know. That's why I said they use the pawns of Chaos, mortal and daemonic. But they don't worship Chaps. They're not zealots. Like the Night Lords.

[The.Latros.Sacrum]

A pair of Chaos players arguing who's Legion is the most pure.... Jeez, what the hell's wrong with us?!? No wonder we can't break Cadia...

too true.

Just to add to the debate, would you guys agree that our Legion is the most impure?
I think that the Alpha Legion are probably the most pure Legion. The Night Lords seem to have a "pure" geneseed, sure, but their numbers are comprised mostly of murderers, criminals and general underworld scum. Not exactly pure in my book! As for their ultimate quest, I dont believe that the Night Lords' purposes are "pure" either. They are the Midnight Clad terrorists which are summed up perfectly (in my opinion) by Alfred Pennyworth in Batman The Dark Knight - "Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

The.Latros.Sacrum

Edited by The.Latros.Sacrum, 05 February 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[Kol_Saresk]

That's what makes them awesome!

But if you want to go "pure" by the definition that I did not use, nowe are not. We're not fully corrupted by Chaos, but we're not pure of heart.

Edited by Kol_Saresk, 05 February 2012 - 12:14 PM.

[witchunter kraine]

But the night lords most likely do have more devotional elements within their ranks. Look at the brotherhood of darkness for an example. Dont make the mistake of assuming the group shown in the night lords novels represent the legion as a whole.

The bulk of alpha legion armies I have seen use daemon princes in their ranks. Effectiveness in game aside, that shows a certain amount of taint within the legion or at least a willingness amongst some of its members to accept the gifts of chaos. Being elevated to daemonhood is quite a different affair from summoning daemons as an operational tool. Besides, a cynic could argue that by using those methods, to whatever degree, youve opened yourself up to taint.

[The.Latros.Sacrum]

The bulk of alpha legion armies I have seen use daemon princes in their ranks. Effectiveness in game aside, that shows a certain amount of taint within the legion or at least a willingness amongst some of its members to accept the gifts of chaos. Being elevated to daemonhood is quite a different affair from summoning daemons as an operational tool. Besides, a cynic could argue that by using those methods, to whatever degree, youve opened yourself up to taint.

True, but the Night Lords can also have Daemon Princes and Possessed.

The.Latros.Sacrum

Edited by The.Latros.Sacrum, 05 February 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[witchunter kraine]

Exactly, they are just as susceptible to using those methods. Im of the opinion that each faction is equally corrupt, the word bearers ate simply open and accepting of the fact

[The.Latros.Sacrum]

Exactly, they are just as susceptible to using those methods. Im of the opinion that each faction is equally corrupt, the word bearers ate simply open and accepting of the fact

Point taken. I agree that all the Chaos Legions are currupt in some way, just more some than others.

Anyway getting back to the OP, I think that the Night Lords would/should get an ability to install terror on an enemy. For example a rule that could state that while the Night Lords force has 50% or more of their army on the tabletop, the opponent suffers -2 Ld on every model. Or something similar to that anyway.

The.Latros.Sacrum

Edited by The.Latros.Sacrum, 05 February 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[Kol_Saresk]

I actually like a lot of the ideas coming up. But both Legions are supposed to be heavily fractured so all in all it doesn't matter what the "Legion" at large does, but what the individual warbands. Like Heathens made some fluff for an Alpha Legion warband that has nothing to do with Chaos. Noctis Cornix made a corrupt Night Lords warband. So it's fallen down to personal reference.

I know I'm not contributing to the ideas very much but I've never played the game. I can't even afford the rulebook between bills.

[Excessus]

Though they would still use the same MO, corrupted or not! Millennia of training and experience isn't just wiped out...

AL would still sneak around and attack from all possible angles, some warbands would use daemons to do it, and some don't...

[Kol_Saresk]

Exactly. Until you get the one random radical who throws it all out the window.

[forte]

Higher chance of night rules applying and with acute senses when fighting at night.

Disrupted communications so higher chance to get the choice to go first or second.

Broken Morale in enemy troops.-1Ld to everything outside HQ and Elite.

I like the idea of Stealth too but that's more Alpha than sadistic killers who like to scare the hell out of the enemy.

[Kristoff]

Actually, I see Night Lords using Stealth more and Alpha using Infiltrate more. They are both sneaky, but Alpha use it to get into position, while you're never quite sure where the batmen are.

Crazy idea, but what if Fearless units lose that rule when in close combat with Night Lords... Yeah, too overpowered, but we can dream.

[Hellios]

Actually, I see Night Lords using Stealth more and Alpha using Infiltrate more. They are both sneaky, but Alpha use it to get into position, while you're never quite sure where the batmen are.

Crazy idea, but what if Fearless units lose that rule when in close combat with Night Lords... Yeah, too overpowered, but we can dream.

It isn't that overpowered unless the Night Lords can easily break units. If they had a rule that stated they ignore the enemies fearless, ATSKNF and stubborn rules while in combat for example... They still need to beat the Khorne Berzerkers or whatever in combat. It would be something that could make a huge difference in a game but that might not come into play that often.

[Fortnight]

Nah, Stealth and infiltrate are more Alpha Legion goodies. Night lords need to have the blood angels deathmasks. Call em terror markings. Drop in Night Vision, and there you go.

If you want them to have a FOC changeup. Let them take beefed up chosen as troops. I see them as overwhelmingly brutal. They won't attack without an edge, and they use fear as a weapon. If we concentrate on those two things, the two that haven't changed since 2nd edition, it makes tons of sense.

The Black Legion is the generic all comers army, Alpha Legion is the sneaky army. Iron Warriors are the siege breakers. Night Lords are the elite, scary army. They're the Crimson Fists of chaos. It's true they have an affinity for raptors and assault per the 3.5 codex, but raptors are a cult unit, they form their own organizations, and look to their cult champion as their leader. Raptors are related to Night lords the way Obliterators are related to Iron Warriors. You don't see IW players wanting to take Obliterators as troops.

[Kraull the Rampager]

I think you guys are looking at things a little wrong...

Personally. I see as the Alpha Legion as the greatest tacticians in existance. It was almost like they were the guys who would out-think an enemy with stratagems and tactics.. The Alpha Legion is your intelligence. Your FBI/CIA/Intelligence Agencies (sorry to use American examples), they'll weaken you as much as possible before crushing you in a short, brutal fight. The Night Lords are your stealth/terror shock troops. Your secret police that remove cancer's. Now turned into mass killing machines via stealth. Their commanders also plan things to the enth degree, in order to take as few casualties as possible. Hence the stealth comes in. Ambushes/assassination and intimidation all break opponents morale.

Anyhow, in regards to a new codex? I'd like to see Raptor's as troops. Marks usable. A negative modifier to leadership and acute sensors. I'd be happy to play raptors as FA however.

If we need a draw-back? Make us suffer in the long range/vehicle department. We can use it. Yes. But havoc squads are limited. Or only a single land raider. No vindicators? Something that's not a CRITICAL loss to the NL's themselves.

This is Night Lords specific however. I'd be sorely disappointed if Vindi's were taken away from the Legions in general.

[Muskie]

Night Lords are an easy legion to write rules for. Of course ripping off Joseph Conrad and Bob Kane isn't exactly something I'd want to hang my hat on... ;-) The big question is how much will 6th edition change the game, the 'leaked' rules were sufficiently complicated that I call bull:cuss. But WFB changed a lot in the newest edition so change is coming. I think the trend in the codices themselves are more special characters because they charge a premium for special character models, even more of a premium than GW charges for their average models plus more bigger kits.

I expect a flyer/skimmer probably similar to the DE or IG with one model that can be used as a fighter or a bomber or maybe as a transport or a fighter. Night Vision makes sense assuming they give unique traits to the Legions and traits makes it into 6th edition. I'd wager more money that Chaos gets a flyer and supposedly people have already seen new bike and plastic dread models. Our dreads suck compared to the siege and Forgeworld special loyalist dreads and the model dates back to 2nd edition so it being replaced makes sense. I have some bikes that were given to me, they are the second plastic chaos space marine bikes I believe and I think that also makes them current though I've owned them for years, never assembling or painting them.

I'd like to see some non-power armored options and the return of the lieutenant. I'd also like to see the return of the retinue and I think you'll see the special characters that makes Raptors and the special character that makes Chosen (Termies) troops. Unfortunately I just don't have a lot of time and certainly no money to devote to the hobby. I shouldn't even be on this forum just now, but I keep waiting for some real meat, perhaps in another month or two the speculation can end.

[Hellios]

Night Lords are an easy legion to write rules for. Of course ripping off Joseph Conrad and Bob Kane isn't exactly something I'd want to hang my hat on... ;-) The big question is how much will 6th edition change the game, the 'leaked' rules were sufficiently complicated that I call bull:cuss. But WFB changed a lot in the newest edition so change is coming. I think the trend in the codices themselves are more special characters because they charge a premium for special character models, even more of a premium than GW charges for their average models plus more bigger kits.

I don't know if it is true but I have a friend who has worked in important areas for GW (Aka not a store manager.) and he said that Special characters are amongst their least profitable miniatures (maybe this will change now that they have started using fine cast...) and apparently one of the best examples of this is Sameal or whatever he is called on the Jetbike. It is a big model so it took more resources to scult and produce the casts in the first place and obviously a bit more material when producing models for sale. It is also from an unpopular dex and even then it isn't a must have unit (I prefer to take him in a Landspeeder although the jetbike model looks great. In theory I am only going to sell him to Dark Angels players (I know people buy to paint as well) but even then not to all of them but only those who want to play Ravenwing. Compare this to my Generic HQ model that might have less detail and be smaller but that some players want might to take 2 of them and they be almost mandatory at smaller point levels.

I do think we will see more special characters however but not for the reason you gave. In the end they will sell enough to make a profit and when you get the players who buy everything a codex with 12 special characters gives you 6 more fairly expensive models to sell over a codex with 6 special characters. Also older players may have more than one generic HQ especially if they played in a period with lots of options such as the 3.5 codex and they may be very happy with what they have got and not that interested in the new 'generic lord' model. Chaos Special character models on the other hand tend to be old and even those who like the sculpts will often complain that the models are too static and lack stature. So if I can sell 12 new characters or significantly updated models that nets me £100-200...

[Muskie]

Your friend is right in terms of volume, tactical marines or rhinos or assault marines probably sell the most. A long, long, long time ago GW used to justify the prices of models based on how much they weighed and how intricate the sculpt was. This allowed them to charge more for special characters. Now supposedly how effect the the model is in the game is a factor in dollar value at retail. It is true some of the plastic kits take a lot of effort to fit in all the bits, but when you recoup the initial labor costs, the fancier plastic models sell for more than the plainer models. They both have very low COGS. Plastic is cheap.

None gamers also buy the fancy models to paint, they also win the golden deamons, they are important from a marketing stand point beyond sales volume. Now the big plastic models are something that only GW can really afford to do, think Gargant and Stormhammer. I don't really want to paint one, but I'd like to buy one before they go out of print...

There will definitely be new special characters they sell. Look at the Blood Angels, every army is lead by Dante it seems. You saw a lot of the Salamanders special character at tournaments. Now certain special character models for the Grey Knights seem very common at tournaments.

I haven't fielded a special character since 2nd edition, but even I realize you need them to do some of the cool army concepts 'legally'. I may still end up doing some sort of conversion and counts as, if there is a really cool new special characters. I like the underdog special characters, the non-generals, like Nork Dreaddog or however he is spelled. That is a cool idea. I used to use a Beast of Nurgle as a bodyguard when they were wargear cards.

Most everything GW does is designed to sell more models.

[Fortnight]

I originally wrote quite a long diatribe about raptors, and how they relate to M41(aka, current) Night Lords. But, in the spirit of harmony, I'll politely summarize. Per all publications and codex's(the coveted 3.5 especially, pg. 42) I have seen, the Night Lords have never been a legion of raptors. Please show us where raptors have been depicted as troops, in any chaos codex, or any official Night Lords fluff. I have never seen it, but if it is there, I'd love to. The greater point was that it's more than fairly impolite to say that we are thinking "wrong" in our wishlisting. Your hobby is your hobby, I might respectfully disagree, but I'll never say you are full of wrong think. If anybody said your interpretation was wrong, I'd back you up just the same.