28 replies to this topic

[Mr.Havoc]

As the title of this said, if you wrote a novel about the Ultramarines, how would you interperate the Codex into the story.

[calgar101]

A useful tool that the Ultramarines can refer to aid their own decisions. It is a very useful tool but not something that should be followed blindly. The notion that it can followed and allow you to come out on top of every situation is a bit silly in my opinion. It is not a 'insta win button'.

Edited by calgar101, 09 February 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[Something Wycked]

It would be like the principles of Sun Tzu mixed with the wisdom gained from After Action Reports of Codex Chapters.

Theoretical knowledge and examples of practical applications- where the principles worked, and where the principles didn't work because a stronger, different flow to the battle was in play that the commander involved didn't recognize.

EDIT: Or didn't have the local battlefield intelligence available to recognize.

Edited by Something Wycked, 09 February 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[Legatus]

If I were to include the Ultramarines in a story (and if I ever wrote a story in the first place), I would want to describe the Codex, but mainly to explain it and to make away with some of the misconceptions about what it includes and how it would be applied. On the other hand, perhaps a story about the Ultramarines shouldn't really mention the Codex at all. They use the Codex for ten thousand years, and it is completely second nature to them to fight according to its doctrines. You wouldn't get soldiers in a modern war movie go "and then we strike them in a pincer maneuver, just like the field manual describes" or "...just like clausewitz describes". They wouldn't explain their actions that way, since it would be completely redundant to point that out.

And for every "the enemy maneuver completely surprised the Ultramarines. No one had used such a maneuver in the history of warfare, ever!" you should get a thousand "suddenly a small detachment of enemy units appeared on the Ultramarines' flank. That was of course to be expected. Captain Examplus himself had seen that maneuver employed at least a hundred times during his three hundred years of service. He would have expected the enemy units to have waited a few moments longer, so that more of the Ultramarine forward units would have been tied up in firefights and their ability to react would have been a bit more restricted, but he understood that human commanders rarely had the experience of a Space Marine Captain, nor the overview over the battlefield to precisely time such a maneuver."

Edited by Legatus, 09 February 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Honestly, I think the Codex should be a story element, not a focus. We don't know what's in the Codex, so there's no point in trying to describe it. It's not a good thing to have as a story hook. We know the Codex makes the Ultramarines good warfighters. Don't bother trying to manufacture a reason why they won a specific battle by referring to the Codex. We can already assume that the Codex's teachings were what helped make that happen. Use it as something to colorize their actions. Have them occasionally (and more importantly relevantly) paraphrase Sun Tzu or Clauswitz or Patton or somebody if you want to reference the Codex. Don't have them sit around and argue what would or wouldn't be in it, because the Codex would emphasize flexibility and options based on a huge number of variables. The Codex Astartes has become a silly cliche for the Ultramarines. But at the same time it is part of who they are. And modern Space Marines aren't exactly the most deep and three dimensional of characters, so there's no harm, no foul in leaving it into their depiction.

[crossatron]

I would interpret it as a Mills & Boon esk romp. Featuring many rugged game keepers and swooning maidens...

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm. I believe there is an assumption each and every Chapter has to have a personality-crux to be interesting. The Blood Angels have to overcome a horrific curse, the Dark Angels have their secrets and are untrusted, the Imperial Fists for some reason are always sacrificing themselves and for some reason only fight World War 1 style siege, etc etc.

The Ultramarines have to overcome their debilitating Codex adherence to be interesting. Yadda yadda yadda.

Anyway, I think we can have an interesting story about Marines with plenty of personality amongst it's characters and NOT have to rely on any sort of portrayal of a supposed fault in need of over coming.

So having this opinion I would confirm I would prefer to see only the odd nod towards the Codex, but with perhaps a decent explanation once how it is intrinsic to everything do and show an example how they use Codex principles to overcome non-standard circumstances - to prove a point.

[The Emperor's Champion]

If you want a character commenting on the Codex and explaining it to someone, why not make it a Veteran Scout Sergeant training a Scout Squad?

It's retarded for anything beyond an Assault Marine to sit there actively discussing what it says in different bits of the Codex as if they didn't have it ingrained into their souls.

Edited by The Emperor's Champion, 11 February 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[Marshal2 Crusaders]

Holy TEC is alive.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I have returned to save you all!
TELL THE PEOPLE!

Edited by The Emperor's Champion, 10 February 2012 - 09:51 PM.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I have returned to save you all!
TELL THE PEOPLE!

So you're saying that if I buy 9 Codex Astarteses, I get the 10th one free as long as I mention TEC when enquiring?

Edited by Marshal Wilhelm, 10 February 2012 - 11:30 PM.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I have returned to save you all!
TELL THE PEOPLE!

So you're saying that if I buy 9 Codex Astarteses, I get the 10th one free as long as I mention TEC when enquiring?

And they'll throw in a case of blessed bolt gun ammunition too!

[Techmarine Data007]

I cannot say it any better than Legatus did. A character might wax poetic with it's passages, or perhaps mention what they might have read from it recently. However, it's not something that requires active reference, or quoting to be made use of. These things are already learned from, potentially decades or centuries ago, and have been put into action repeatedly over those years. It should be noted, however, that Mr. MacNeill actually did something useful regarding the Codex in Warriors of Ultramar. I think it was Learchus who pointed out during the siege preparations that the city itself had diverged from Codex teachings as to the layout of cities in such a fashion as to be easily defensible as well as allowing easy transit of material and manpower to the front lines.

[Vazzy]

If you want a character commenting on the Codex and explaining it to someone, why not make it a Veteran Scout Sergeant training a Squat Squad?

It's retarded for anything beyond an Assault Marine to sit there actively discussing what it says in different bits of the Codex as if they didn't have it ingrained into their souls.

Sooo, the Ultramarines train Squats now? I am confused

[karden00]

techmarinedata007.....
I adore that sig. Should I be asking you or TEC for permission to use it?

[Techmarine Data007]

Probably tEC, since it`s his quote. He`ll probably be okay with it though.

[The Emperor's Champion]

If you want a character commenting on the Codex and explaining it to someone, why not make it a Veteran Scout Sergeant training a Squat Squad?

It's retarded for anything beyond an Assault Marine to sit there actively discussing what it says in different bits of the Codex as if they didn't have it ingrained into their souls.

Sooo, the Ultramarines train Squats now? I am confused

Woops

techmarinedata007.....
I adore that sig. Should I be asking you or TEC for permission to use it?

Probably tEC, since it`s his quote. He`ll probably be okay with it though.

Go for it!

[Brother-Captain Alecto]

I would interpret it as a Mills & Boon esk romp. Featuring many rugged game keepers and swooning maidens...

HERESY! But also the best joke I've read on the BnC for a while.

[greatcrusade08]

personally i think its a cross between TEC and crossatrons ideas.

[Tarvik]

If I were to include the Ultramarines in a story (and if I ever wrote a story in the first place), I would want to describe the Codex, but mainly to explain it and to make away with some of the misconceptions about what it includes and how it would be applied. On the other hand, perhaps a story about the Ultramarines shouldn't really mention the Codex at all. They use the Codex for ten thousand years, and it is completely second nature to them to fight according to its doctrines. You wouldn't get soldiers in a modern war movie go "and then we strike them in a pincer maneuver, just like the field manual describes" or "...just like clausewitz describes". They wouldn't explain their actions that way, since it would be completely redundant to point that out.

And for every "the enemy maneuver completely surprised the Ultramarines. No one had used such a maneuver in the history of warfare, ever!" you should get a thousand "suddenly a small detachment of enemy units appeared on the Ultramarines' flank. That was of course to be expected. Captain Examplus himself had seen that maneuver employed at least a hundred times during his three hundred years of service. He would have expected the enemy units to have waited a few moments longer, so that more of the Ultramarine forward units would have been tied up in firefights and their ability to react would have been a bit more restricted, but he understood that human commanders rarely had the experience of a Space Marine Captain, nor the overview over the battlefield to precisely time such a maneuver."

Oh Legatus, everything you say makes me want to clone you.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

My interpretation of how the Ultramarines follow the Codex is an instinctive one. These are Astartes, they have photographic memory and have been fighting for decades, centuries in the case of the officers.

They wouldn't go into a situation and say "Codex indicates x situation and we must utilise y solution". In my, most humble opinion, an Ultramarine would instatntly recognise a situation and adapt to it accordingly. Rather than coming across as a bookworm, an Ultramarine captain would come across as a tactical genius, instantly and immediately knowing the correct solution to a tactical problem. His mind has already processed the available facts, cross referenced with what the codex suggests and selected the desired course of action.

[NightrawenII]

Hmm. I believe there is an assumption each and every Chapter has to have a personality-crux to be interesting. The Blood Angels have to overcome a horrific curse, the Dark Angels have their secrets and are untrusted, the Imperial Fists for some reason are always sacrificing themselves and for some reason only fight World War 1 style siege, etc etc.

Sometimes I wonder if the people actually know what they are talking about. Just in case;

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.
~Index Astartes, Imperial Fists

The Ultramarines have to overcome their debilitating Codex adherence to be interesting. Yadda yadda yadda.

Or the writer could adopt opposite approach, the Ultramarine fails the heritage of Guilliman.

If you want a character commenting on the Codex and explaining it to someone, why not make it a Veteran Scout Sergeant training a Scout Squad?

It's retarded for anything beyond an Assault Marine to sit there actively discussing what it says in different bits of the Codex as if they didn't have it ingrained into their souls.

Agree to degree.
It depends on settings and characters involved. If the two (or more) commanders are discussing battle strategy, then it's possible for them to quote the bits of Codex or present their own interpretation(s). The later scenario is very feasible with commanders from different Chapters, even with successors of Ultramarines.


~NightrawenII.

[Captain Idaho]

Quoting one reference to the character of a Chapter, Legion or any other facet of 40k doesn't mean that is the be all and end all of their depiction.

Going from your example, I was actually referring to fiction which is written describing the Imperial Fists as over the top, self sacrificing siege specialists.

Yes I know there is more to the Imperial Fists than that, which was my argument; Chapters are lazily portrayed as the extremes of their character and it is boring and shallow to read in literature.

[NightrawenII]

Quoting one reference to the character of a Chapter, Legion or any other facet of 40k doesn't mean that is the be all and end all of their depiction.

Going from your example, I was actually referring to fiction which is written describing the Imperial Fists as over the top, self sacrificing siege specialists.

Yes I know there is more to the Imperial Fists than that, which was my argument; Chapters are lazily portrayed as the extremes of their character and it is boring and shallow to read in literature.

Oh, I see.
My post was aimed at these fools, who think that Imperial Fists are "self sacrificing siege specialists" and nothing else - I wasn't talking to you in particular.


~NightrawenII.

[Captain Idaho]

That's cool, thought that might be the case which is why I kept as much emotion as possible out of my reply. In reality I cried and cried and cried!

I think we are in agreement though; there is more to such Chapters than a single, all encompassing feature that defines them.