230 replies to this topic

[EPK]

Agree to disagree, I guess.

In the first two novels, Loken qualifies that the threat of the denizens of the Warp is no real secret. He cites previous battles with them (three or four occasions, actually). It's possession that freaks him out.

Spoiler

And in "Know No Fear", Samus is just as unphased by the Ultramarines' weaponry as the creatures Corswain fights aboard the Invincible Reason are. But for some reason, in every other instance in the Horus Heresy series, each and every Legion's warriors are able to overcome initial shock and horror and fight against all odds. Given this, Corswain's flight was disappointing.

It's been soooo long since I read those first books. I'll admit I do not recall that info specifically. Maybe I got it wrong - does he think they are of some alien species or does he actually realize they are made from the nightmares of people's thoughts? And again, was Loken referring to battling these warp denizens in the material world where they obviously have a shelf life or actually in the warp itself where they are eternal? I think that would make the biggest difference.

Would it be safe to say that 1) Some Legionaries may have more experience and understanding than others and 2) Though they may have encountered warp beasts they aren't aware of the chaos god's themselves. They do not realize there is a greater sentience to the warp.

No matter what, contradictions seem to be inevitable in GW/Black Library writing.

On the spoiler tagged text - I'll agree with you there, regardless of any rationalization I try to give it.

Edited by EPK, 14 February 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[Stobz]

Spoiler

And in "Know No Fear", Samus is just as unphased by the Ultramarines' weaponry as the creatures Corswain fights aboard the Invincible Reason are. But for some reason, in every other instance in the Horus Heresy series, each and every Legion's warriors are able to overcome initial shock and horror and fight against all odds. Given this, Corswain's flight was disappointing.

THIS, the story would have been far more exciting if the decisions made and subsequent events

Spoiler

(mutiny, killing, librarians poweres etc etc..)

by the Lion were made in the heat of combat and whilst losing a running battle. I did like the story but it could have been MUCH better.

[EPK]

Spoiler

And in "Know No Fear", Samus is just as unphased by the Ultramarines' weaponry as the creatures Corswain fights aboard the Invincible Reason are. But for some reason, in every other instance in the Horus Heresy series, each and every Legion's warriors are able to overcome initial shock and horror and fight against all odds. Given this, Corswain's flight was disappointing.

THIS, the story would have been far more exciting if the decisions made and subsequent events

Spoiler

(mutiny, killing, librarians poweres etc etc..)

by the Lion were made in the heat of combat and whilst losing a running battle. I did like the story but it could have been MUCH better.

I agree there as well. To be fair though, we have only had 1/3 of it, lets give it a chance. Future events might make up for some less interesting ones.

On side note -

Spoiler

Why do you think the command deck is completely left alone? Thorpe specifically emphasizes that. Is it because of the Lion?

[Stobz]

True, I'll give a fair chance.

As to your query, I think there target priority was bang on, stay away from the DA strength and cripple them to even the mobility issue the NL were having.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Spoiler

Maybe Corswain reacted frightfully on account of Calibanite superstitions over the nephilla? Not being able to defeat them by regular means and believing them to be a creature of nightmare even in Caliban may have overwhelmed his judgement. Or maybe it was just a somewhat hamfisted way to build up tension.

[Captain Semper]

Spoiler

Why do people care about Coswain so much? It's like Savage Weapons... The Lion got his bottom handed to him by Curze but Coswain was very heroic. And? So? The Lion still got beat up. Am I supposed to feel better about it because Coswain was very brave indeed? I'd rather have the Lion win and Coswain being an embarassement to the Legion. I could live with that. Now it's all how Coswain should have reacted against deamons and what is the implied power level of a Flamer of Tzeentch vs. a hound of Khorne vs. a Space Marine in quasi-warp conditions.., I mean really... Here we have the Lion being a terrible Angel of Death, focusing only on victory (this is actually a recurring theme in the Astelan sub-plots in both the Angels of Darkness and the Call of the Lion), making amazing spaceship manouvres that are very well described, finising up with the "little brother" nonsense and decapitating the mutineer on the spot! This is pure awesomeness. And before people say that he temporarily lost it - he didn't. It was an informed decision. The guy smiled after that! He was not trembling nor shaking. He was very composed and in control. The raising of the voice was his method of re-asserting control and silencing Nemiel immedietly.

So, we're done with him trusting other Primarchs (and realising trusting Perturabo was silly and ultimately preventable), we're done with Nemiel, we're done with his delusions of grandeur and we're done with "Fallen Angels" as far as I'm concerned. I like all that.

EDIT: Hi Phoebus - it's been some time!

Edited by Captain Semper, 14 February 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

We're interested about Corswain because he fell in our laps out of nowhere. From my part at least. Seriously, where did he come from? How did he become the Lion's new BFF all of a sudden?

Besides, we all know how awesome the Lion is, so we take his awesomeness for granted.

I do disagree that he had intended an execution and wasn't simply trying to chastise Nemiel (we're in page 3 and I'm tired of spoiler tags -.-), but in his anger forgot his strength. He evidently did not take pleasure in the consequences of his deeds. Quoting:

Spoiler

"The Lion seemed to realise what he had done and his face twisted with pain as he knelt beside the remains of the Brother-Redemptor."

I don't think this was the outcome he had in mind, regardless of whether Nemiel's execution was in order.

[EPK]

We're interested about Corswain because he fell in our laps out of nowhere. From my part at least. Seriously, where did he come from? How did he become the Lion's new BFF all of a sudden?

Besides, we all know how awesome the Lion is, so we take his awesomeness for granted.

I do disagree that he had intended an execution and wasn't simply trying to chastise Nemiel (we're in page 3 and I'm tired of spoiler tags -.-), but in his anger forgot his strength. He evidently did not take pleasure in the consequences of his deeds. Quoting:

Spoiler

"The Lion seemed to realise what he had done and his face twisted with pain as he knelt beside the remains of the Brother-Redemptor."

I don't think this was the outcome he had in mind, regardless of whether Nemiel's execution was in order.

That might have very well been the case,

Spoiler

he simply backhanded him for his insolence, forgetting his own strength. Yet in stark contrast, we also are told he had smiled just as it happened.

We are simply going to have to see were Thorpe takes us in the next two installments.

Also, yea, can we just agree that anything from this point on could be a spoiler and forgo the tags?

[Candleshoes]

Corswain is interesting in his role as a proven Champion and Senchal. As much of the heart of the Legion as any of his peers, Calabanite or Terran. Even more interesting, is the fact that former Captain Alajos names him the greatest swordsman in the Legion.

In a Legion of swordmasters, he is the one whose life guards the Lion's honour. He is the bearer of the Champion's Mantle. That is pretty cool. It specifically says that not even the Terran Astelan matched him.

I think the comparison is alot like other Legions and their "pre-eminent" characters, be it champions, librarians, or first company captains. We have NEVER had a loyalist hero named from the Horus Heresy, ever. No loyalist was named among our records, so the way I look at it, is that this is our chance. This is our time for fluff expansion before everything goes to hell in a handbasket. Everyone else has heroes that the whole of the galaxy knows, and moreover, that their peers in the astartes respect. Abaddon, Erebus, Sevetar, Sigismund, Raldoran, Ahriman, Kharn, Gabriel Santor, Jubal Khan, Typhus, Agapito, Ingo Pech, Vespasian etc. I think Corswain is the closest representation of that honour roll.

Edited by Candleshoes, 14 February 2012 - 10:27 PM.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

He better start doing some really awesome deeds fast then. Getting his sword stuck in a Primarch's spine after having murderers getting the drop on him and tactically retreating before Warp spawn aren't exactly deeds becoming of a Champion.

The author who came up with his concept is at fault, no doubt. He should expand on this most interesting character at the first chance he gets *nudge nudge*.

Edited by WatchCaptainAzrael, 14 February 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[Candleshoes]

There is resonance in the thought that no other marine has struck a Primarch out of anger and lived. That is something no other mortal soul could claim at that point.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I actually loved it when he stabbed Curze, that, too me, was pretty awesome. I mean, Primarchs have only been slain by other Primarchs/The Emperor. No mere Astartes can hope to face a Primarch and live, and heres Corswain who just shoves his sword into Curze's back and then lives to tell the tale.

I am really looking forward to seeing an expansion on Corswains role in the Legion throughout this novel, hope he comes back and beats up some NL in the next two installments.

[Cactus]

There is resonance in the thought that no other marine has struck a Primarch out of anger and lived. That is something no other mortal soul could claim at that point.

Heck yeah! The one thing I came away with from Savage Weapons was "That Corswain, he's a real badass."

Your previous post, Candleshoes, had me thinking Corswain becomes Cypher, taking the Lion's sword and questing to redeem his liege lord's honour.

On topic, I was very impressed with part one of The Lion. I went into it thinking 'I hope it has a good cliffhanger at the end of parts 1 and 2' and Gav did not disappoint! I like the development of the Lion's mistrust now that we're seeing things from his perspective rather than that of the people he gives the cold shoulder to. I hope that drives more plot, either here or in later books, as it's the aspect of his personality that's easiest to get a handle on and believe in the character.

Now I know it's part of the upcoming anthology I'm a) stoked that the Lion is one of the four primarchs featured and ii) ambivalent about buying the next two issues Hammer and Bolter.

[Vazzy]

I really like Corswain, to be honest. I liked him enough to make a model


Photo_272DE4F1-2AC9-3769-0577-C3C797BFC43D by vazzy2012, on Flickr

Your previous post, Candleshoes, had me thinking Corswain becomes Cypher, taking the Lion's sword and questing to redeem his liege lord's honour.

Yes!!! i could totally see this... or maybe he's our first Legion, uh, chapter master?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

thats a really nice model, cant wait to see him painted!

[EPK]

ambivalent about buying the next two issues Hammer and Bolter.

Yea, I think I will just old out for the anthology to read the rest. When is it due out? I'm a cheap old man (at least in heart), so I'd rather pay $9 for one book rather than $12 for a 3-part short story and still pay another $9 to read the rest of the anthology anyway... of course I've already paid the $4 for the Hammer and Bolter (the only other issues I own of it are the ones that were free in the beginning). I'm going to use this first part as just a sneak peak and wait for the full book.

Sorry Semper, I agree with the rest. Luther, Astelan and Zahariel have been side-lined for now and we either know or can assume their fate anyway. Corswain will persumably be the Lion's right hand for the rest of the Heresy and we want more. Candleshoes put it well.

And I agree. Corswain sticking the Night Haunter is what made that skirmish a moral victory for the Dark Angels.

Edited by EPK, 15 February 2012 - 04:55 PM.

[Candleshoes]

From the Black Library website, an extract from Part 2:

Lashing out withan armoured boot, the Lion sent the hound-like beast tumbling down the corridor. Taking half a dozen strides, the primarch brought both of his swords down across its back as it tried to right itself, carving it into three pieces that spattered into gore across the decking.

He stopped for a moment to assess the situation. The flight of stairs down to the main core chamber was only fifty metres ahead, and the passageway was free of enemies. He could hear his company fighting behind him, the retort of bolters echoing up from the stairwell he had just left. Though he knew his little brothers were in a dire situation, he had to focus on his objective: regaining control of the core so that the warp engines and Geller field could be engaged.

The comm buzzed as he stepped forwards, and he heard Corswain’s voice. The seneschal sounded strained, as if speaking through gritted teeth.

‘My liege, the way is clear to the warp core. You must come at once. There is something else here, something we cannot destroy.’ The comm-link hissed for a few seconds. ‘It… It wants to speak with you.’

Edited by Candleshoes, 15 February 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[EPK]

Damnit you, now I will not be able to wait...

It wants to speak with you.

Yet that answers a question, reason #1 for leaving the command deck alone - the fury of a Primarch can unravel even warp beasts within their own element. It also implies that the marines have found a way to destroy some of the warp beasts (help from the Librarians and Navigators I suppose).

Edited by EPK, 15 February 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[Stobz]

Mmmmmmmm, bolter porn. love it. Stop your teasing

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

that was an awesome extract, I am looking forward to part 2. If the rest of the novel is The Lion with TWO swords dealing death and destruction, like a Primarch should, I will be happy

[Captain Semper]

Sorry Semper, I agree with the rest. Luther, Astelan and Zahariel have been side-lined for now and we either know or can assume their fate anyway. Corswain will persumably be the Lion's right hand for the rest of the Heresy and we want more.

Disagreeing is what the forums are for!

Well undoubtedly Corswain is the one to watch. He is the new kid on the block and I wouldn’t be surprised if Vazzy’s guess, that Corswain ultimately becomes the first SGM, turns out to be true.

But DAs are not about Corswain – they are about the Lion! He is the one that defines the faction. Corswain may be brave (he was) or a coward (some hint to that in the way he handles the daemon situation) but in the end he is just one marine in a 100,000 strong Legion (give or take). The Lion is what matters. It’s like in Savage Weapons. The main thing of this short story was that the Lion lost to Curze in a straight fight. Curze had no advantage to speak of either – if anything he was surprised by the Lion’s unexpected first attack. Am I supposed to feel compensated by Corswain’s bravery? I am not. As a reader, I do not identify with the champion, I identify with the big man himself.

But back to the novella at hand, I really do not care a single bit how Corswain behaves when confronted with lesser daemons for the first time in a warp saturated environment… The quality of the novella will actually be judged on how the Lion is depicted. It is called “The Lion” after all. And the minute he decapitated Nemiel was an air-punching moment for me! I was like: “Yeeeeeeeeessssssssss! shut up you self-righteous little nobody! Now the Lion speaks! All we need now is for Luther to kill Zachariel and we’re done. In fact, as supporting characters go, Corswain in a short story has managed to be a gazillion times more interesting than two full novels of Nemiels and Zachariels…

And I agree. Corswain sticking the Night Haunter is what made that skirmish a moral victory for the Dark Angels.

Agreed. This is what put Corswain on the map.

And talking about how the Lion is depicted, the BL passage above is just marvellous! TWO SWORDS! Yessss! *looks at his avatar, in self satisfaction* Carving up daemons in a warp environment! Yessss! “It wants to speak with you”? I bet the Lion wants to have a word with IT too!

In short I see this novella, so far, as giving the Lion a Primarch awesomeness quality from which he was consistently deprived in the “Decent” and “Fallen Angels”.

Edited by Captain Semper, 16 February 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Cpt Semper, the Lion is a Primarch his awesomeness had to come to the surface sooner or later.

On the subject.. I'll have to wait for the anthology or hit amazon/e-bay/whatever, but it sure seems a worthy read.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Captain Semper: I do not think the Lion 'lost' the fight. Neither Primarch 'won' per se, a battle between Primarchs is a fight between equals. During the first stage of the fight, The Lion beat up Curze, then, when tackled he began to lose as Curze's experience in that form of dirty fighting asserted itself. I, personally, thought that the Lion did well, I was disappointed he didnt beat up Curze, but I dont think he lost. It was a draw at the end of it

[Captain Semper]

Captain Semper: I do not think the Lion 'lost' the fight. Neither Primarch 'won' per se, a battle between Primarchs is a fight between equals. During the first stage of the fight, The Lion beat up Curze, then, when tackled he began to lose as Curze's experience in that form of dirty fighting asserted itself. I, personally, thought that the Lion did well, I was disappointed he didnt beat up Curze, but I dont think he lost. It was a draw at the end of it

It only matters what happens in the end. It was not a draw. It took Corswain's intervention to save the Lion's bottom. It speaks well for Corswain (and DAs in general), not so much for the Lion personally. I actually wish the whole combat was the other way around. Curze hits first, in a sneaky and underhand manner, then the Lion turns the battle around and Curze was saved the last minute by Sevatar - maybe getting killed by the Lion in the process (I am not all that well versed in the NL background, maybe Sevatar dies in some other place). That would have been great and the character of both Primarchs would be preserved...

*Sneaky attack by Curze? check! I don't think any NL player would have a problem with that.
*The Lion a master swordsman? check! Well established part of his background and something we all expect to see... Not in mass battle but in 1-1 combat.
*No Primarch dies in the end? check? We all know the story does not end here.
*Is it a draw? ermmm no? because if it weren't for third party intervention things would turn ugly.

Unfortunately this was not the way ADB chose to tell his story. No matter. Good story regardless.

But "The Lion" seems very promising to me...

Edited by Captain Semper, 16 February 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[Candleshoes]

I always found it interesting, that as the two primarchs strike their first blows and disapear during their duel surronded by dust, that is when Corswain chose to run to his Primarch and intervene. He didn't start running when the Lion was getting throttled, he was moving to the primarch shortly after the first blows were struck, leaving a brother to knowingly die, even before the first blows were struck amongst the astartes bodyguard. His actions were in motion long before the Lion was in trouble, I can't think of a single other Legion coming into mind that has this kind of pre-emptive aid/support shown to their Primarch.

This mindset is intersting in itself, as it is a reflection of the gene father I think, and does speak to the character of the Dark Angels, perhaps there is a strength there in the blood that really does lend credence to the idea of a Legion whole, even 10,000 years later. Loyalty for a greater cause, even when the loss is high.

Edited by Candleshoes, 16 February 2012 - 05:06 PM.