Xiongshen Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 New to the site, but I'm loving what I'm seeing so far. Anyway, I am working on a modern, Loyalist army of Luna Wolves. Basic back story is that they are descended from a Battle Company that was believed lost in the Warp before the start of the Heresy and spent a little over 9,000 years in the Warp before reverting to realspace. Given the time anomalies that all of the literature describes, to these marines it seemed as if only a year had passed. They immediately headed to Terra and were detained by the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, and subjected to purity testing for 500 years before the Emperor intervened and cleared them for service. All Marines paint their armour black as a mark of shame for the actions of their primarch, and none display the legion symbol. Only the Chapter Master may wear any white on his armour and is also the only Marine who can use lightning claws (due to the Talon of Horus being such a recognizable symbol of their primarch). My Luna Wolves now fight to restore honour to their Chapter's name and to punish those who turned from the Emperor's light. They await the day when the Emperor forgives them for the sins of their gene-father and allows them to reclaim the livery of their ancient legion. I have done my standard Terminators in black as well, but I am thinking of painting the rest of my veterans grey to show that they have brought some honour back to their Chapter and to their primarch, but I'm unsure as to how this will look. Any thoughts that you all have on my concept, as well as any information you have on pre-Heresy LW would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 The "lost in the warp" is a plausible (if cliched) plot device. A few issues remain, however: They immediately headed to Terra and were detained by the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, and subjected to purity testing for 500 years That means they died during the procedure. Space Marines have a natural life expectancy of a couple of hundred years. Logan Grimnar at 700 years is seen as quite the exception. Blood Angels have increased life span due to their genetic flaw, and can easily reach a thousand years of age. The oldest currently serving Ultramarine is 400 years old, and Marines start to show signs of advanced aging at about 300 years. My Luna Wolves now fight to restore honour to their Chapter's name and to punish those who turned from the Emperor's light. They await the day when the Emperor forgives them for the sins of their gene-father and allows them to reclaim the livery of their ancient legion. That is never going to happen. Horus' Legion will never be reinstated in any way, shape or form. That ship has sailed. It is conceivable that Marines of the traitor Legions that can somehow prove their loyalty beyond doubt are allowed to continue to figt. But it would simply be fighting until their end. They would not be allowed to continue the gene line, they would not be allowed to create any further Marines from their gene-seed, and they would certainly never hope to be allowed to wear the Traitor Legion's heraldry and symbols. If they believe that by continuing to fight they might one day be forgiven, that might be possible (if quite delusional), but the Imperium would never offer that as a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I was under the impression that left alone without the will/need to kill, SM can technically live forever. Edit: pretty sure Gravius in the Salamanders book only died because he sat in one place, leading his muscles to atrophy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANCIENT FALOR Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I believe astrates can live way past 5 hundred years. At least that's the impression horus rising gave me.most die from combat. And not old age. So no one really knows. I don't think the current imperium would let any Luna wolves retain anything to do with horus. If they're Lucky enough not to be purged. They would probably keep their roots to themselves. Since the animosity chapters have towards the architect of the heresy and his gene sons . It sounds good besides that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Its a cool concept. I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I like how you have went about your idea, but I think some of the fluff is pretty stacked against you no matter how you spin it. As has already been stated, they would certainly not be allowed to keep their chapter going. Only the HLoT are allowed to create (or decree the creation of)Astartes these days (as I understand it) and I just cant see any reason for them thinking it at all advantageous for a potentially dangerous chapter running about in perpetuity. I can see room for them being sentenced to a crusade that concludes only with their defaulting by attrition. An interesting idea would be to use the GK codex perhaps. The army operates in a typically Marine-y type fashion (the HLoT would probably insist they follow the Codex pretty close) and you use your HQ's as inquisitors, maybe with a squad of GK's as backup just in case, who basically look over the shoulder of these lost souls. Maybe the BT Dex could be used, dont they have access to Inquisitors? I cant remember. It occurs to me that this might be seen as a dreadful waste of precious resources of GK and Inqs, but I can see it happening (only in the grimdark of the 41st :P) if only because the chapters sole existence is to literally fight itself to death, if only to bring a very tiny footnote of pseudo forgiveness that will probably be classified deleted anyway. Sorry to ramble on what is really your idea. I just thought it was a neat concept and got carried away with how I would explain it. But the explanations are of course whatever you want them to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidice Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Dante is over 1,100 years old and is still a fighting, but is one of a kind. I believe the degrading geneseed (has to diminish over time) has reduced the natural lifespan of space marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Well, say, an Ultramarine should technically be able to live forever, given the pure(ish) state of that geneseed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crimson Cartel Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Hey, if you like your idea,go for it. Lost in the warp,though overused, usually works fine. I agree though that no son of horus, however pure and honorable will ever be accepted. To be honest,the first thought that went through my head after reading your post was that it seemed like a "boring" color scheme... :/ but dont let me or any other brother dissuade you from your idea if you really enjoy it. -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 How about your chapter believes they are descended from the Luna Wolves ect, but it is really all a Alpha Legion caused lie. They are loyal yada yada, but secretly fight to redeem a Legion they have nothing to do with. They have discovered some history on the Luna Wolves some how, and against the will of Terra, actually use some of their iconography and colors. Maybe the =][= has a mole in your chapter watching for the Alpha Legion to return.... :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I was under the impression that left alone without the will/need to kill, SM can technically live forever. An impression fostered by a remark in one of the Horus Heresy books, but one contradicted by twenty years of Codex background. Dante is over 1,100 years old and is still a fighting, but is one of a kind. He is also a Blood Angel, who are specifically described to have an increased life span over Marines of other gene-seed, and are even capable to reach a thousand years of age. Here are some select quotes: "These aspirants are welcomed to the Chapter and take their place amongst the Space Wolves. As Space Marines, they will live for hundreds of years, if they do not die in battle, and they will voyage through the stars to fight in the name of the Emperor." (5th Edition Codex Space Wolves, p. 10) "Chaplain Cassius is the oldest active member of the Ultramarines Chapter. (...) Though Cassius is close on four centuries of age, his arm remains strong, his aim remains true and his sturdy presence within the Ultramarines battlelines fills the hearts of his young brethren with pride and valour." (5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 87) "Space Marines rarely show signs of extreme aging until they are over three hundred years old, but Cassius' skin is gnarled and heavily scarred, and his hair has turned white." (2nd Edition Ultramarines, p. 73) "Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all the Space Marine Chapters. One of the peculiarities of their aberrant gene-seed is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who bear it, so it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years. Indeed, the current Commander of the Chapter, Dante, is known to have lived for 1,100 years, and is almost certainly far older. These vastly extended lifespans allow the Blood Angels to perfect their techniques in art as well as in war. They have centuries in which to perfect the disciplines to which they turn their minds. This accounts for the fact that the Blood Angels' armour and banners are amongst the most ornate of all the Space Marines." (5th Edition Codex Blood Angels, p. 12) "Although the Codex describes a number of ranks and responsibilities within the headquarter staff, only a very few of these officiers actually accompany the Chapter to war. Many are non-combatants of advanced years whose roles are to find and train recruits or administrate the Chapter" (5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 16) There is no ambiguity or uncertainty in the lore. Space Marines can live for several hundred years, if they are not killed in battle. Every Chapter has members of advanced years in non-combat roles, so it is not like they all die in battle and we wouldn't know. The Blood Angels are specifically noted as having vastly increased life spans over Marines of other gene-seed, often reaching a thousand years of age, and as a result having the most experienced artificers. If Space Marines were immortal, all of that would be invalid, and every Chapter would have thousands of years old artificers. Examples of very old Space Marines include the 400 years old Chaplain Cassius of the Ultramarines and the remarkable 700 years old Great Wolf Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves. Whenever a Space Marine is described as older than that, it almost allways involves the warp or is an unsolved mystery, as is the case with Captain Lysander of the Imperial Fists, Marshal Ludoldus of the Black Templars, and that one really old Salamander from the novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 But these Marines did live in the warp for 9,000 years. Not only that, but part of the background is that they knew that they had spent a significant amount of time in the warp. Not sure how they found out. My biggest bone is that the Emperor directly intervened. How would you explain that? I'm asking because frankly I haven't heard squat about the Emperor doing anything except light up the Astronomican. Legatus, please feel free to correct me because I am missing about 18 years of fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 But these Marines did live in the warp for 9,000 years. For them it was like one year. The warp sometimes works like that. My biggest bone is that the Emperor directly intervened. How would you explain that? Good point. The Emperor does noting at all anymore. I hadn't picked up on that earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 But these Marines did live in the warp for 9,000 years. For them it was like one year. The warp sometimes works like that. True. I just thought that since they went straight to Terra that they a decent amout of sometime had passed to make them want to go to Terra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Thing is, they got lost in the warp before the heresy, so they would have no idea about the heresy. As far as the inquisition is concerned, they are part of Horus' march on Terra and would be blown out of the cosmos. Just have them go en route to whatever mission they were on when they got lost, and continue from there. What codex are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Not necessarily true. If they are from Luna Wolves than either they are fresh Ullanor or even Pre-Ullanor so broadcasting Luna Wolves identification would immediately ring up a bell that they know nothing. The Inquisition being the devious individuals they are would exploit them and give them misinformation to keep them loyal to the Imperium at large. So at worse they never find out what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 It's a nice idea but very hard to reconcile and actually make it work. The only way I can see having real loyalist Luna Wolves in the 41st millennium would be to have them come out of the warp after 10,000 years somewhere reasonably remote, realize how much time has passed and from contact with local systems learn their legions history and the events that had unfolded. They arrive at the decision that they cannot return to Terra to declare their existence to the Imperium and instead must fight for the Emperor covertly. The galaxy is a big place and as long as they steer clear of major system hubs and battle on the borders of the Imperium they can exist relatively safely. Ultimately the Inquisition may learn of their existence or other loyalists might run into them or you could just have them become very good at slipping the noose and escaping being found. I like to think that they would keep their armour the same as they always wore it because they would see it as a mark of pride to be the last ones wearing the colours. I would have lighting claws just flat out banned as a piece of equipment though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 With the clarification that Amit the Blood Angel will be in Jim Swallow's Fear to Tread, we have evidence that a "pure-blood" marine can survive for much longer than current astartes, even factoring out the fact that he is of Sanguinius' bloodline. If he is on Signus prime before the fall of Terra, and post Terra he founds the Flesh Tearers, and he spends "thousands" of years persecuting worlds loyal to Horus before founding the chapter homeworld on Cretacia, plus however long it would have taken him to fall in battle or die... that is truly stretching what we currently know about the life expectancy of pre-heresy astartes. Even estimating, we can guess that he would have at least 100-200 years of experience being high level BA commander at Signus Prime/2nd Founding Chapter Master, plus his crusade time, plus the time it would take for him to die after he founds Cretacia, we would be looking at a 2,400-3,500 year old Flesh Tearer. Yes, his Primarch's blood is likely to help extend that, but it also does volumes to say that HH quality marines may naturally be able to live longer than their current counterparts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I was under the impression that left alone without the will/need to kill, SM can technically live forever. An impression fostered by a remark in one of the Horus Heresy books, but one contradicted by twenty years of Codex background. S'far as I know, though, no Marine has ever been listed as gone senile/died of old age in any codex. Some statements, like you quoted already, might be interpreted as Marines having limited lifespans, but they don't actually support any notion that Marines die like old men. Still, we don't have any sort of sample size on either side of the spectrum, so I suppose this could be a question posed to some of the BL authors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostAlone Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If I were going to bring back the Lunar Wolves, then I'd definitely go with the kind of approach that Ethrion suggested. If they go anywhere near Terra or the inquisition, they definitely never get out of their clutches. The astartes are valuable, but you can't unring the heresy bell. Just showing up and saying 'Well we didn't turn on you, we double promise' isn't likely to cut much ice with anyone. At best, they end up being locked away and told to prey or whatever till they died, at worst they get tortured and when they don't give up anything good they get killed out of hand. The most realistic approach to having a Lunar Wolves force on the table in this era is to have them show up and go 'Ah crap' when they realize that their brothers nearly killed the emperor and just launch their own penatant crusade. I mean marines are pretty much the penetant sort anyway, and everything else being equal they only expect to die in battle. So when they figure out they can never truely be a chapter again, they just find somewhere to be useful and murder everything they can until the last one of them dies. As far as I know the Lunar Wolves were last called that around M.30 so even if they keep the same name they shouldn't ring any alarming bells to any imperial commander they support. Oh and if you do want to go with the 'lost in the warp since before the heresy' approach, then you'll be wanting to use the older armor patterns or at least use only beakie helmets to keep with the theme. Otherwise you may as well just keep the same colours and make a new chapter. I can imagine too many people will remember the Lunar Wolves original colour scheme so you should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If I were going to bring back the Lunar Wolves, then I'd definitely go with the kind of approach that Ethrion suggested. If they go anywhere near Terra or the inquisition, they definitely never get out of their clutches. The astartes are valuable, but you can't unring the heresy bell. Just showing up and saying 'Well we didn't turn on you, we double promise' isn't likely to cut much ice with anyone. At best, they end up being locked away and told to prey or whatever till they died, at worst they get tortured and when they don't give up anything good they get killed out of hand. The most realistic approach to having a Lunar Wolves force on the table in this era is to have them show up and go 'Ah crap' when they realize that their brothers nearly killed the emperor and just launch their own penatant crusade. I mean marines are pretty much the penetant sort anyway, and everything else being equal they only expect to die in battle. So when they figure out they can never truely be a chapter again, they just find somewhere to be useful and murder everything they can until the last one of them dies. As far as I know the Lunar Wolves were last called that around M.30 so even if they keep the same name they shouldn't ring any alarming bells to any imperial commander they support. Oh and if you do want to go with the 'lost in the warp since before the heresy' approach, then you'll be wanting to use the older armor patterns or at least use only beakie helmets to keep with the theme. Otherwise you may as well just keep the same colours and make a new chapter. I can imagine too many people will remember the Lunar Wolves original colour scheme so you should be fine. Definitely should use the old armour patterns but to really be all proper and correct it should largely be Mk II, III and maybe IV. Everything else would have been developed after this battle company got lost in the warp. They also might be able to have the odd Mk VI and VII helmet which they could have salvaged and traded for from certain sources. But it would be cool to keep it all really antiquated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I would stick with your background up until heading to Terra. I would have their fleet fired upon and severly damaged. They beat a retreat and search for why they were fired upon. After finding the truth of the heresy, they could 1: Go renegade and remain loyal to the Emps and fight on without Imperial support, or 2: Remake themselves into a new chapter, and try and fool the Imperium into believing that they are lost loyal chapter from one of the numerous foundings. As for the modelling aspect, rather than grey, maybe a single arm and/or white helms for vets. Also, since its been 500 yrs or so, they'd have plenty of time to scavenge/resupply new armour marks. But from they're GC time Period, they'd have MkII and MkIII plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 S'far as I know, though, no Marine has ever been listed as gone senile/died of old age in any codex. Some statements, like you quoted already, might be interpreted as Marines having limited lifespans, but they don't actually support any notion that Marines die like old men. It is exactly what those quotes say. You cannot possibly interpret statements like "as Space Marines they will live for hundreds of years, unless they are killed in battle" to mean anything else. Especially not when combined with other statements such as every Chapter having non-combatant members of advanced age (they surely will not die in battle before having lived those hundreds of years) and Blood Angels having an increased lifespan. The mere fact that this has not been phrased as "yes, really, after those hundreds of years a Space Marine will then die of old age, like most living things do after their natural lifespan" is entirely irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiongshen Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Thanks for all of the comments. Part of the reason I used the Inquisition and Grey Knights as the first contact for the LW on their approach to Terra is the very simple fact that they would have been transmitting ancient codes and wearing/displaying ancient livery. Those privy to the greatest secrets of the founding of the Inquisition and the Ordo Malleus would know that two LW; Garviel Loken and Iacton Qruze, were founding members of the organization. Thus the need for 500 years of genetic and spiritual purity testing, to see if this contingent of marines were of like mien. (Like most of you, the only thing I could find regarding marines' lifespans were that they rarely live more than 200-300 years due to combat) Their current actions are what amounts to a penitent crusade. I got the idea for painting their armour black in part from the practice of the Ordo Xenos' tradition of having the Deathwatch paint their armour black to show fealty to the Inquisition and Emperor above their former Chapters until the end of their periods of service. Until they have redeemed themselves in the eyes of the Emperor, they will wear the black and fight as an extension of his will (through the guidance of the Inquisition). The Emperor has intervened since his internment on the Golden Throne however, both through the use of the Emperor's Tarot and on one occasion on the psychic plane when an Inquisitor came into his presence in the throne room. (In the book The Inquisition War) Furthermore, the 5th edition Codex also states that audiences are held before the Emperor, just that his will is interpreted by the High Lords of Terra. My marines will probably never find a measure of forgiveness that will allow them to wear the white armour of the LW again, nor even be able to let the marines of other Chapters know the true name of their Chapter. (Like the DA, only the veterans of the Chapter will know the truth of their origins, new aspirants will be trained according to the Codex Astartes and left ignorant of the true history of the Chapter) But they will continue to fight in the Emperor's name, until the day that they can reclaim the Talon of Horus and lay it at the Emperor's feet at the Golden Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (Like most of you, the only thing I could find regarding marines' lifespans were that they rarely live more than 200-300 years due to combat) No worries, I provided the relevant passages in my post above. (Like the DA, only the veterans of the Chapter will know the truth of their origins, new aspirants will be trained according to the Codex Astartes and left ignorant of the true history of the Chapter) You are already stretching it with the notion that the High Lords would allow a surviving force of the original traitor Legions to continue serving until an honourable death, but there is just no way they would be allowed to continue as a Chapter and create further Marines with their gene-seed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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