Loyalist Luna Wolves

[Xiongshen]

Again Legatus, from all indications the current canon of the Horus Heresy seems to imply that they would do just that. After all, all signs point to the Blood Ravens being created from the remaining group of Loyalist Thousand Sons marines.

[Kol Saresk]

Well Blood Ravens are............... Blood Ravens. Their own fluff is inconsistent with itself since it exists only in the games and the books are supposed to be a reflection of the games but the books have Angelos harboring a mutant and consorting with xenos on multiple occasions.

 

But the quality of HH versus 40k Marines it would be plausible that the Astartes who have 1st gen, 2nd gen or some other early generation of gene-seed would be able to better experience it's benefits such as longevity or strength. As it is closer to the Primarch's base DNA as there is less human DNA in te way but as the generations progressed, it would dilute. So since the estimates Legatus gave are given in regards to 40k Marines, and most likely the nine Founders, this would be plausible. As Iacton Qruze was one of the first Luna Wolves and he could still fight on. IIRC, the impression of him was that everyone thought of him as the old dog and therefore treated him as someone who is in retirement, not he was unable to keep up with everyone else. Also, the Iron Warriors who had been caught in the entropy field had mentioned that the ground itself was detoriating around them by the time it was turned off. So they were aged quite a long amount of time. And the Salamander who is older than dirt was probably using his Sus-an membrane without the lack of a sarcophagus which is most likely resulted in his extremely detoriated state.

[Legatus]

Wasn't the Blood Ravens mystery finally resolved in one of the recent novels? Or was that the true origin of the Soul Drinkers? Maybe I am confusing it with a statement by A D-B, who had spoken unfavourably about the Blood Ravens's rumoured ties to the Traitor Legions.

 

 

But the quality of HH versus 40k Marines it would be plausible that the Astartes who have 1st gen, 2nd gen or some other early generation of gene-seed would be able to better experience it's benefits such as longevity or strength. As it is closer to the Primarch's base DNA as there is less human DNA in te way but as the generations progressed, it would dilute. So since the estimates Legatus gave are given in regards to 40k Marines, and most likely the nine Founders, this would be plausible.

The Ultramarines gene-seed is usually presented as quite pure, though, and they are not really known for older than usual Marines.

 

"The Ultramarines gene-seed is by far the purest stock and there are no known aberrations in its genetic structure. Every one of the esoteric organs utilized in the arduous creation of a Space Marine by the Ultramarines are fully functional, and it can truly be said of this Chapter that they are as perfect today as they were in the days of Guilliman."

(3rd Edition Index Astartes Ultramarines)

[Kol Saresk]

By diluted I meant that while it will still make Astartes, the gene-seed will have more and more altered human DNA in it as it goes through the different generations of hosts. After all, doesn't acquire human DNA from its hosts?

 

 

On the novels, I think it was the Soul Drinkers in Phalanx and it was the whole story about Deanthyos, but not the Soul Drinkers origins. If anything it obscured them as it came out that they weren't descended from the Imperial Fists. Didn't really explain how that happened since it was a shock to everyone in the fluff.

 

On the Blood Ravens, I don't know what's happened with outside of the games since I haven't read anything past the third book and to be honest I only play Retribution for the Word Bearers skin pack because it looked awesome.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

S'far as I know, though, no Marine has ever been listed as gone senile/died of old age in any codex. Some statements, like you quoted already, might be interpreted as Marines having limited lifespans, but they don't actually support any notion that Marines die like old men.

It is exactly what those quotes say. You cannot possibly interpret statements like "as Space Marines they will live for hundreds of years, unless they are killed in battle" to mean anything else. Especially not when combined with other statements such as every Chapter having non-combatant members of advanced age (they surely will not die in battle before having lived those hundreds of years) and Blood Angels having an increased lifespan. The mere fact that this has not been phrased as "yes, really, after those hundreds of years a Space Marine will then die of old age, like most living things do after their natural lifespan" is entirely irrelevant.

I could not disagree more. It's not what these quotes say - some of them hint (read: not concrete evidence at all) at it, and I don't doubt that gene-seed flaws can be attributed to Marines dying naturally, but again bringing up more recent fluff (the HH series), Marines can live forever. Maybe not all of them, but some of them at least can.

The fact that it hasn't been phrased such is not irrelevant at all - in fact, it's entirely relevant. More so than your listed quotes, because it would put that conversation to rest, and not allow for cases in fluff (like the HH series) to contradict the holy grails that are the Codexes.

Again, I can't emphasize enough the fact that you're making a big leap in saying that 'Marines die of old age' with no actual 'documented proof' (as documented something can be in fiction) and just extrapolation based off statements. I.e. SM can live indefinitely even just sitting somewhere and basically being nourished by random humans (Book 1 of Tome of Fire series, Brother Gravius of the Salamanders).

 

Wasn't the Blood Ravens mystery finally resolved in one of the recent novels? Or was that the true origin of the Soul Drinkers? Maybe I am confusing it with a statement by A D-B, who had spoken unfavourably about the Blood Ravens's rumoured ties to the Traitor Legions.

 

It was SD, and it was never actually revealed what their precursor Legion was. See serialized novel Phalanx for more info.

[Legatus]

I could not disagree more. It's not what these quotes say - some of them hint (read: not concrete evidence at all) at it

"As Space Marines, they will live for hundreds of years, if they do not die in battle" (C:SW) means "they will stop living after those hundreds of years".

 

"One of the peculiarities of their aberrant gene-seed is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who bear it" (C:BA) means "other Space Marines do not get that old".

 

"Many are non-combatants of advanced years" (C:SM) means "if Space Marines were immortal, every Chapter would have ten thousand year old sages".

 

Those aren't "hints".

[LostAlone]

While not wanting to get too much in the way of the battling canon quotes (which I am in no way qualified to get involved in), I will say that there are two really important things that make space marines ages deeply problematic.

 

1. The sus-an membrain. Any marine can go into suspended animation for essentially an unlimited amount of time at basically a moments notice. And (at least at some point) it was accepted that the majority of the space marines went into suspended animation for most interstellar travel both as a matter of logistics (ie they need no food or life support) and to ensure they aren't slurped at by deamons; and I'm sure that no-one has any idea what so ever if the time spent sleeping is included in their age.

 

2. Warp travel. It's somewhat random. Every marine has traveled the warp a number of times and across some pretty big distances. Sometimes a warp jump takes a year, sometimes two, sometimes two hundred years. You can easily have spent 20 or more years in the warp even if you were just 'on time' for all your hops. And of course that time in the warp is... just different. It could be faster, could be slower, could be random as all hell.

 

So between these two things, the 'age' of any given space marine is really tough to work out. I assume that they go with 'Date today subtract date of birth' approach which is fine for most things, but it just won't tell you how old space marines live to.

 

On a functional level I guess it's 'As long as GW says so'.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

On the novels, I think it was the Soul Drinkers in Phalanx and it was the whole story about Deanthyos, but not the Soul Drinkers origins. If anything it obscured them as it came out that they weren't descended from the Imperial Fists. Didn't really explain how that happened since it was a shock to everyone in the fluff.

 

Yeh, i think the Soul Drinkers might have come from loyalist 1k Sons (FLESH CHANGE!) This might lend support for the OP. I still think if it were true, they would have no idea.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I could not disagree more. It's not what these quotes say - some of them hint (read: not concrete evidence at all) at it

"As Space Marines, they will live for hundreds of years, if they do not die in battle" (C:SW) means "they will stop living after those hundreds of years".

 

"One of the peculiarities of their aberrant gene-seed is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who bear it" (C:BA) means "other Space Marines do not get that old".

 

"Many are non-combatants of advanced years" (C:SM) means "if Space Marines were immortal, every Chapter would have ten thousand year old sages".

 

Those aren't "hints".

Neither is my example. Brother-Sergeant Gravius lived for 10k years, and probably would have lived for more if he'd walked around once every month instead of being a couch-potato. What I'm saying is not that all SM are immortal. What I'm saying is that some of them are, and that new fluff supports that notion, contrary to whatever old codices and IAs said/implied. If those old sources were as clear cut as you think they are, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

[Legatus]

Neither is my example. Brother-Sergeant Gravius lived for 10k years, and probably would have lived for more if he'd walked around once every month instead of being a couch-potato.

In this particular case, he was stranded on a planet that was obscured by a waerp storm, and he reminisces that it had been a warp storm that had made his ship crash land on the world in the first place. And then the Salamanders Apothecary of the squad who found him remakrs how it could be possible for him to still be alive after all that time. So that is not exactly a good case for Space Marines having such a natural lifespan.

 

 

If those old sources were as clear cut as you think they are, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

We are only having this discussion because some BL author had one character in his Horus Heresy book remark that Space Marines are functionally immortal. Which is contradicted in about half of the Space Marine sources since 2nd Edition (at least I can think of 7 off the top of my head). But it is a detail that is easily lost, I suppose. Even on BL authors.

 

(To be fair, it is possible that the BL author knew fully well that Space Marines live for several hundred years, but had some of his characters assume that they were immortal because they had only existed for 200 years at the time of the Heresy. In that case it is merely unfortunate that the readers were unable to pick up on that.)

[AGPO]

As far as Space Marine aging goes, the fluff is contradictory, the same as it is in many other areas. That's what you get from twenty five years of material written by dozens of different authors with several retcons and no centralised continuity control.

 

 

To get back on topic, how does the OP intend to address how different the 'current' Imperium is to the vision during the Great Crusade? Let's not forget that the Emperor and the Lunar Wolves were militant athiests, and the likes of the Ministorium and holier than thou Imperial regime would liekly disgust them. They'll know nothing of Chaos either.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Neither is my example. Brother-Sergeant Gravius lived for 10k years, and probably would have lived for more if he'd walked around once every month instead of being a couch-potato.

In this particular case, he was stranded on a planet that was obscured by a waerp storm, and he reminisces that it had been a warp storm that had made his ship crash land on the world in the first place. And then the Salamanders Apothecary of the squad who found him remakrs how it could be possible for him to still be alive after all that time. So that is not exactly a good case for Space Marines having such a natural lifespan.

 

 

If those old sources were as clear cut as you think they are, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

We are only having this discussion because some BL author had one character in his Horus Heresy book remark that Space Marines are functionally immortal. Which is contradicted in about half of the Space Marine sources since 2nd Edition (at least I can think of 7 off the top of my head). But it is a detail that is easily lost, I suppose. Even on BL authors.

 

(To be fair, it is possible that the BL author knew fully well that Space Marines live for several hundred years, but had some of his characters assume that they were immortal because they had only existed for 200 years at the time of the Heresy. In that case it is merely unfortunate that the readers were unable to pick up on that.)

IIRC the planet in question wasn't actually in the Warp per se , so Gravius was straight up 10k (give or take 1k years, I suppose?) old, unlike CSM, who spend more of their time in the Warp. And I don't remember the Apothecary saying "not possible, the body can't survive that long", although I'm going to have to go back and read the book again for the details.

I see this not necessarily as an affirmation, but most definitely a case where you can make conjectures about Astartes life spans. This vs no actual recorded case of a Marine withering away of old age is the issue.

 

 

As far as Space Marine aging goes, the fluff is contradictory, the same as it is in many other areas. That's what you get from twenty five years of material written by dozens of different authors with several retcons and no centralised continuity control.

 

 

To get back on topic, how does the OP intend to address how different the 'current' Imperium is to the vision during the Great Crusade? Let's not forget that the Emperor and the Lunar Wolves were militant athiests, and the likes of the Ministorium and holier than thou Imperial regime would liekly disgust them. They'll know nothing of Chaos either.

 

There's just no way they'd fit in the current structure. It'd absolutely have to be a SD - type army; crusading and recruiting in their own little corner of the universe.

[Legatus]

IIRC the planet in question wasn't actually in the Warp per se

IIRC that was not really described in detail. Though I may be wrong on that. I think it merely described how that planet had been unaccessible due to warp storms for the past ten thousand years, and the Salamanders were now able to get to it since they had recently cleared. At one point Gravius also remarks that "there was a storm", when he reminisces about how he had ended up on hat planet. That, plus the remark about how living that long seemed impossible, make this instance entirely unviable as any kind of argument in favour of immortal Space Marines.

 

 

And I don't remember the Apothecary saying "not possible, the body can't survive that long"

To be fair, it was not an Apothecary, after all. Though I thought an apothecary had given his opinion on the matter at some point. Anyway, this is the passage, right when tehy find the old Marine:

 

"How is this possible?" hissed Dak'ir, unsure if the old Salamander was even still cognisant enough to be aware of their presence. "I fthis ship is indeed from Isstvan, he must be thousands of years old."

 

But then later the author kind of weasels out of the issue by describing how the Salamanders really wouldn't know anything about that, since they send their old Marines into the wilderness, so have actually no clue how old Marines can get. The Space Marine Codex, meanwhile, describes that Chapters in general employ non-combatants of advanced age.

 

 

This vs no actual recorded case of a Marine withering away of old age is the issue.

Honestly "they live for several hundred years, if they are not killed in battle" is quite explicite. As is "Blood Angels can live longer than other Marines, a thousand years is not uncommon".

[Apothecary Vaddon]

That, plus the remark about how living that long seemed impossible, make this instance entirely unviable as any kind of argument in favour of immortal Space Marines.

 

 

"How is this possible?" hissed Dak'ir, unsure if the old Salamander was even still cognisant enough to be aware of their presence. "I fthis ship is indeed from Isstvan, he must be thousands of years old."

 

But then later the author kind of weasels out of the issue by describing how the Salamanders really wouldn't know anything about that, since they send their old Marines into the wilderness, so have actually no clue how old Marines can get. The Space Marine Codex, meanwhile, describes that Chapters in general employ non-combatants of advanced age.

 

 

This vs no actual recorded case of a Marine withering away of old age is the issue.

Honestly "they live for several hundred years, if they are not killed in battle" is quite explicite. As is "Blood Angels can live longer than other Marines, a thousand years is not uncommon".

Plenty of planets can get cutoff from interstellar travel (Age of Strife) but not be in the Warp, so it's quite possible.

Yeah - maybe if Fugis had been there, we'd have had a better answer.

I don't think it's explicit, I think it's a vague statement that might or might not encompass all Marines. I suppose we're just going to have to agree to disagree, until we can get some big fish authority guy to clear it up.

[MordentHex]

Relatively new member myself but here goes.

 

They immediately headed to Terra and were detained by the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, and subjected to purity testing for 500 years before the Emperor intervened and cleared them for service. My Luna Wolves now fight to restore honour to their Chapter's name and to punish those who turned from the Emperor's light. They await the day when the Emperor forgives them for the sins of their gene-father and allows them to reclaim the livery of their ancient legion.

There are 2 simple quotes "innocence proves nothing", "knowledge is power, guard it well" That would mean as soon as those Luna wolves enter Terra space with a Luna wolf Signature they would be blown to pieces. No questions asked, no chances taken. Forget the life span of the marines, It would be seconds to hours after showing there identity codes. The only way this idea would work is the path of the outcast.

 

My Luna Wolves now fight to restore honour to their Chapter's name and to punish those who turned from the Emperor's light. They await the day when the Emperor forgives them for the sins of their gene-father and allows them to reclaim the livery of their ancient legion.

 

I have a Heresy army myself and I have thought of the same thing. Although less forgiveness from the emperor and more just good old honest space marine hate for there fallen legions. (mine where crusading outside of known imperial space or 5000 years and presumed lost/destroyed.) Like the soul drinkers your marines will be hunted down and destroyed if they are not discreet. Jumping to prove there innocence would be there undoing. Many chapters are renegade or just "lost" but any Imperial official higher than a planetary Gov will recognize the chapter name.

Any thoughts that you all have on my concept, as well as any information you have on pre-Heresy LW would be greatly appreciated.

 

500 years after emerging from the warp gives you a much better chance to really build you a feasible and reasonable fluff for your army, not something that sounds like it came from an enthusiastic 40k newbie 14 year old. This is not a criticism but a critique. Good thought into your fluff for something as ambitious as this you really have to brainstorm heavily to make it sound legit. If not just run them as a normal Heresy army and save the trouble of explanation.

 

All Marines paint their armour black as a mark of shame for the actions of their primarch, and none display the legion symbol.

If your dead set on painting your marines black "also a bad idea (Black legion confusion)" just make them legion of the damned and bobs your uncle.

[Darkmagi]

Alrighty then, I've been mulling this idea over in my head for awhile now... The main argument I can see for allowing the Marines to live is rather simple... The Luna Wolves never fell to chaos nor turned form the emperors light. *ducks flame throwers* The Sons of Horus under the command of Horus Luprical turned from the emperor and waged war against the imperium. If say the fleet was lost early in the crusade before say even Horus was found the possibilities are there for the marines to be allowed to serve the Emperor as they had during the great crusade. I'd go so far as to say the Penitant colors arn't needed as they never served Horus. Just another direction to look at. But overall I'd say do it and damn the fluff... as I think that with the imperium on the brink; they would try anything, even break open the gene banks of the traitors if it might save the imperium. But tis just my 2cents on the matter

[AGPO]

If you're going to try that then you're better off trying another legion whose Primarch was discovered later. No one is going to draw the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus distinction - the Luna Wolves are entirely associated with Horus, that's why they were given the name they were. Horus was discovered incredibly early in the crusade, in fact for centuries it was just the Emperor and Horus setting out to save the galaxy together. On the other hand pre-Angron World Eaters (known as the War Hounds before the discovery of their primarch) would have no association with the traitor Primarch and would probably be completely unknown to the current Imperium. Added to this they would have had none of the neural implants that turned the World Eaters into berserkers.

 

tl;dr: No one is going to accept any marine they recognise as coming from a traitor legion, no matter how innocent they might seem. Your best bet is if they can't be recognised by the Imperium. Pre-Primarch legions might stand a chance, but Luna Wolves are the least likely shout for this.

 

with the imperium on the brink; they would try anything, even break open the gene banks of the traitors if it might save the imperium.

 

Not if past form is anything to go by. The Imperium has happily sacrificed whole armies, chapters, even worlds at the risk of them being slightly impure. This is a crazy theocracy, not a rational government. You'd think the Imperium would welcome any technological innovation or stolen alien weapon that could help them fend off all the threats they face, but it's quite the opposite. The development of new unsanctioned tech or trading with aliens are considered heresy and are punishable by death. Don't forget they've had the ability to ressurect the Emperor for 10,000 years now and still haven't done it.

[Darkmagi]

Don't forget they've had the ability to ressurect the Emperor for 10,000 years now and still haven't done it.

 

Please Elaborate on this point as I hadn't heard this before

[AGPO]

It is in the front of the Inquisitor rulebook. I'm at uni at the moment but essentially the newly formed Inquisition realises that there is a way to recussitate the Emperor, but doesn't do so because the Emperor is now being viewed as a God, and they fear the divide that could be caused by a 'second coming.' There are several other references in various places to the idea that his internment in the Golden Throne was only supposed to be temporary but that the Ministorium has repressed such views.

[Doghouse]

I'd use the Dark Angels plot device for these guys. When Caliban was destroyed they were scattered through time and space, you could do something like that quite easily. Have them start off too far from Istvaan to have been deployed with the other loyalists but have them ordered through a notoriously unstable region of space where they get catapulted into the future instead of being destroyed or something along those lines.

 

I'd avoid sending them to earth, with so many chapters being created over the thousands of years they could exist as a regular chapter without anyone knowing that they were the Luna Wolves or their history.

 

Have them encounter and capture a few members of the black legion and they could find out all the gory details of the Heresy that way.

[Marshal Rohr]

Hi! Welcome to your first of many Index Astartes.

 

Since you jumped straight into Loyalist Traitor Legionaries, I can say I look forward to your chapter that hates the Ultramarines and the Codex, your chapter that was a secret and made from the High Lords, and (my personal favorite) the Space Wolves that arn't Space Wolves!

 

 

^_^

 

In all seriousness, dont do loyalist traitors.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Don't forget they've had the ability to ressurect the Emperor for 10,000 years now and still haven't done it.

 

No, some members of the proto-Inquisition believed he might reincarnate if they let his current body die, they don't have a button to bring him back to life. There's an entire faction of the Inquisition, the Thorians, obsessed with trying to bring the Emperor back (mostly focussing on finding him a new host though, Resurrectionism tends to be looked on... unfavourably), and they haven't had much success in 10,000 years. They sure as hell wouldn't be able to walk into the Imperial Palace and bring him back instantly.

[Simo429]

Having read lagatus' quotes I believe there is certainly a level of murkiness.

 

Most of them talk of hundreds of years but give no exact value. The fact is that there are exceptions to this rule in almost every chapter and they are the fighting men that have purely survived. As has been said there is no evidence for a Space Marine dying of old age. That to me is telling.

 

There is certainly a quote by Abnett pertaining to a Astartes immortality.

 

as for the quote

"they live for several hundred years, if they are not killed in battle"

 

Where is it from? I can only see it as you quoting yourself, I may have misread.

 

I have always been of the belief that Space Marines are immortal. While time in the Eye of Terror flows different it doesn't always mean more slowly. What also about the traitors such as Abaddon that have spent long periods out of the Eye of Terror? How long have 12 black crusades taken? He was already old when he went in there.

[Kol Saresk]

That is due to the influence of the warp both on them and the way times flows around them. The best example I can draw on is from Blood Reaver. There is an excerpt in which Talos and Variel are talking about the last time they met. For one of them, it happened twenty-something years ago. For the other it was almost fifty. On those that it mutates, it can grant extended life. Combine that with the time discrepancy and viola! You hve the modern Chaos Marine. Travel through the warp is usually where the time discrepancy takes place. Both in the amount of travel time experienced by the traveler and the the time that passes by in realspace. There is also Brothers of the Snake. the Iron Snake Marine only experiences twelve years throughout the whole book. But someone who never traveled in the warp tells that fifty(or was it forty?) years had happened since they first met at the beginning of the book.

[Legatus]

as for the quote

"they live for several hundred years, if they are not killed in battle"

 

Where is it from? I can only see it as you quoting yourself, I may have misread.

I had given full citations in this post. It is from the current (5th Edition) Codex Space Wolves, page 10, last paragraph in that page. The line is originally from the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 6.

 

And yes, that does translate to "after those several hundred years, they will die of old age".

 

 

While time in the Eye of Terror flows different it doesn't always mean more slowly. What also about the traitors such as Abaddon that have spent long periods out of the Eye of Terror? How long have 12 black crusades taken? He was already old when he went in there.

Perhaps you should not just see the warp as having a slower or faster progression of time. The concept of time can not really be adequately translated to the warp. Plus, being in the warp without protection can also cause it to alter one's physical properties.

 

The Alpha Legion Index Astartes included a few comments on the unnatural Chaos Marine longevity:

 

"It has never been established if members of the Alpha Legion exhibit the same unnatural longevity as other Chaos Space Marines, who can apparently live for many thousands of years. This phenomenon is generally attributed to the Traitor Legions' existence in the Eye of Terror, where the laws of time and space do not apply. Thus it should follow that the Alpha Legion should not be affected. However, if Alpha Legion Space Marines have more normal life spans, then one must ask how losses are replaced. In his address to the Ikrilla Conclave, an impassioned Inquisitor Kravin warned, "The only possible answer is that new Chaos Space Marines are being recruited and genetically modified somewhere within the Imperium.""

(3rd Edition Index Astartes Alpha legion, "The Ikrilla Conclave".)