49 replies to this topic

[1000heathens]

Quick question: Besides the Black Templars and the Marines Malevolent, can anyone else think of a chapter that still follows the Emperor's Edict of Nikea?

[Marshal2 Crusaders]

The logical extrapolation from Know No Fear is that the Guilliman reforms allowed for the reinstatement of chapter librarius' to allow marine chapters to combat daemonic threats. The Black Templars (given what FFG has written never reformed) and I don't know why the MM don't use them. Since those are the only two chapters that I know of who have specifically mentioned not having librarians.

[1000heathens]

Thought so too, but I figured it was worth asking at least. Thanks M2C.

[BassWave]

Where did you find out that the MM did not have Librarians? I thought the Templars were unique in that regard?

[1000heathens]

@BassWave: Nick Kyme's Salamander. The MM's are disgusted and repelled of the Sallie's Librarian, and state that they strictly follow the Edict of Nikea. BTW, expect a PM soon, I have some questions for you, oh rabid Iron Hands fan.

[BassWave]

Ah thanks for the info, and I've sent you a pm in response

[Demoulius]

uhm, if they dont use librarians then how do they travel around with their fleet? they need librarians (or navigators, but tbh if they DO use those theyre a big bunch of hypocrites) to travel through the warp...

[BassWave]

uhm, if they dont use librarians then how do they travel around with their fleet? they need librarians (or navigators, but tbh if they DO use those theyre a big bunch of hypocrites) to travel through the warp...

Only navigators are necessary. The Nikea edict only banned the librarius.

[1000heathens]

uhm, if they dont use librarians then how do they travel around with their fleet? they need librarians (or navigators, but tbh if they DO use those theyre a big bunch of hypocrites) to travel through the warp...

Only navigators are necessary. The Nikea edict only banned the librarius.

Exactly. Navigators were exempt from the Nikea Edict, only the librariums were shut down.

[Brother Khairon]

Who's idea was the Nikean Edict originally? I mean, who would have benefited from it?

[1000heathens]

If I'm remembering correctly, It was the Emperor's personal decree, but a number of influential individuals were pushing for it, from Primarchs on down. The thought was that rampant psychic powers, unless contained and controlled, would lead to a Second Old Night, and the end of the Empire of Man.

[Brother Khairon]

It also deprived the astartes of a useful weapon.

Edited by Brother Khairon, 04 March 2012 - 12:14 AM.

[1000heathens]

Pfft, more like ridded the Adeptus Astartes of a potential threat. Witches are only good for burning anyway...

[Brother Khairon]

To each other their own, then.

[1000heathens]

Agreed.

[Wolf Lord Kieran]

Who's idea was the Nikean Edict originally? I mean, who would have benefited from it?

When i first got into the game, the Nikea Edict only banned sorcery, not psyker powers, so it made atlesat a little bit of sense without turning everybody in hypocrites.

that has been changed though.

WLK

[Project.2501]

Who's idea was the Nikean Edict originally? I mean, who would have benefited from it?

When i first got into the game, the Nikea Edict only banned sorcery, not psyker powers, so it made atlesat a little bit of sense without turning everybody in hypocrites.

that has been changed though.

WLK

THANK YOU for posting this!

I remember the same thing as well as multi-page debates over what was sorcery and what was psychic powers on multiple boards way back when, but just the other day I double cbecked Lexi because of this thread and read it's all completely changed.

Anyone know when the Nikea edict changed?

[Demoulius]

the same time whever a retcon happens i guess.... so many things change without us noticing at first

outlawing sorcerery but allowing librarians makes so much more sense. librarians are trained extensivly and monitored allong the way by their peers and superiors. theres an entire safety net to prevent one from becoming corrupted by a deamon....

the risk is always there but the odds of it happening and having disastrous results in a astartes chapter are slim to none if you ask me...

[Sgt.Sangha]

well it has been stated in know no fear, that this was a very smart tactical ploy by the chaos agents to take away a powerful weapon from the loyalist. Now im not to sure on the time line but did the word bearers secretly start worshiping chaos before Nikea or did they start after? because if they started first then they could have helped influence other legions to support the removal of librarians without themselves being in the midst of it. it could also have been a tzneetch level plan by chaos itself.

[Olisredan]

I'm fairly sure the Word Bearers were corrupted many years before the Nikaea Edict. Might even be a few decades (I can't exactly remember the number of years).

[Brother Khairon]

Spoiler

If you've read The First Heretic, the Word Bearer's began to worship chaos sometime after the events at Monarchia. About 43 years before Istvaan 5.

Edited by Brother Khairon, 05 March 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Captain Idaho]

I very much doubt the Word Bearers had anything to do with the changes, given how Russ and Mortarion were not easily infuenced and all. Russ is, well, Russ, whilst Moratrion was only ever close to Curze and Horus.

Besides, humanity was obsessive in their persecution of mutants and psykers before and after the Primarchs, so giving the Word Bearers that much credit is a bit much in my opinion. Lorgar was closest to Magnus and was Psychic himself, plus Sanguinius was psychic too.

When i first got into the game, the Nikea Edict only banned sorcery, not psyker powers, so it made atlesat a little bit of sense without turning everybody in hypocrites.

that has been changed though.

People do take things too black and white though. The back ground of 40K is often deliberately biased and created as propaganda or historical records, which logically can differ from actual events.

The Heresy books are the actual events, though have the thought processes of individuals on the events included.

So I see it as this; the Heresy has an outright blanket ban on the Librarius, but post Heresy a few of the Primarchs, at least three by the look of things (Russ, Sanguinius and Guilliman) support a change in the law. However, the Emperor is no longer around to reverse the edict, so they propose an amendment. So as not to be seen as going against their father's word by the supersticious and hurt Imperium and thus seem disobedient the historical record portrays it slightly differently.

Or the historian took the final rules on Space Marine Psychics and incorporated them into the whole rules, without reference to it being an amendment. This makes perfect sense too.

[Blood Angel Scout]

I took it from the Salamander novel that the Marine Malevolent were only surprised to see the Librarian in a command role, implying that they do exist within the chapter:

"Excuse Brother Nemiok," he said addressing Pyriel, who exhibited no reaction. "We are unaccustomed to Librarians in ranking positions," Lorkar explained somewhat thinly. "The Marines Malevolent still adhere to some of the tenets laid down at Nikea."
"An outmoded set of edicts some ten thousand years old, fashioned by a council arraigned before your Chapter was even formed," countered Tsu'gan, his mood still truculent.

[Brother Khairon]

So the Marines Malevolent might have librarians, though not in command roles?

[Olisredan]

Well, if they follow the Nikaea Edict to the letter then the might have psykers but only as battle brothers, as they are forbidden to use their powers.