48 replies to this topic

[Aegnor]

One of the most popular criticisms of A Thousand Sons, and the elaboration to date of the HH, has been that the trial at Nikea was retconned in a way that is inconsistent with what we "know" and that is illogical.

I think the last few books of the series, in particular Know No Fear, but also the Garro series, have given us sufficient elaboration of the implications of Nikea to say that the new version of the Edict of Nikea isn't a stuffed up retcon or mistake - the retcon is a deliberate addition of a new strand to the Heresy story - one that potentially will add quite a bit to the overall story arc.

Know No Fear showed Guilliman crystalizing what lots of the complaints about the total ban on Astartes practising as psykers had been getting at.

Spoiler

He explicitly says that in abolishing the Librarians, the loyalists have denied themselves the best weapon they have against daemons and other enemy warpcraft. He wonders whether this wasn't a deliberate ploy by the then-undeclared traitors at Nikea. This confirms what Malcador at around the same time had also decided - that Librarians were useful and necessary tools - hence sending Garro to retrieve Rubio.

Here we can see the basis under which Guilliman is going to effectively reverse parts of the edicts of Nikea when he formalizes the Codex Astartes - it seems likely he'll champion the revision of the ruling to be sorcery is banned, psychic powers under the guise of Librarians are ok.

So the situation we saw as at the end of the A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns duology wasn't the full picture, and isn't how the situation will stay, even during the Heresy itself. It seems to support what was suggested in Prospero Burns - that Chaos had its claws all over the trial at Nikea and its outcome - for reasons beyond just ensuring Magnus fell.

Doesn't explain why the Emperor fell for such manipulation, but besides the suggestion in Outcast Dead

Spoiler

that the Emperor understands the full course the Heresy will take and is following that path because it's the only way to avoid a total loss

, the questions about why the Emperor wasn't more astute in preventing the Heresy are always really hard to answer, but are necessary parts of the entire story.

[Týr]

One of the most popular criticisms of A Thousand Sons, and the elaboration to date of the HH, has been that the trial at Nikea was retconned in a way that is inconsistent with what we "know" and that is illogical.

I think the last few books of the series, in particular Know No Fear, but also the Garro series, have given us sufficient elaboration of the implications of Nikea to say that the new version of the Edict of Nikea isn't a stuffed up retcon or mistake - the retcon is a deliberate addition of a new strand to the Heresy story - one that potentially will add quite a bit to the overall story arc.

Know No Fear showed Guilliman crystalizing what lots of the complaints about the total ban on Astartes practising as psykers had been getting at.

Spoiler

He explicitly says that in abolishing the Librarians, the loyalists have denied themselves the best weapon they have against daemons and other enemy warpcraft. He wonders whether this wasn't a deliberate ploy by the then-undeclared traitors at Nikea. This confirms what Malcador at around the same time had also decided - that Librarians were useful and necessary tools - hence sending Garro to retrieve Rubio.

Here we can see the basis under which Guilliman is going to effectively reverse parts of the edicts of Nikea when he formalizes the Codex Astartes - it seems likely he'll champion the revision of the ruling to be sorcery is banned, psychic powers under the guise of Librarians are ok.

So the situation we saw as at the end of the A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns duology wasn't the full picture, and isn't how the situation will stay, even during the Heresy itself. It seems to support what was suggested in Prospero Burns - that Chaos had its claws all over the trial at Nikea and its outcome - for reasons beyond just ensuring Magnus fell.

Doesn't explain why the Emperor fell for such manipulation, but besides the suggestion in Outcast Dead

Spoiler

that the Emperor understands the full course the Heresy will take and is following that path because it's the only way to avoid a total loss

, the questions about why the Emperor wasn't more astute in preventing the Heresy are always really hard to answer, but are necessary parts of the entire story.

I belive the reason the Emperor did as he did at Nikea, was to stall the coming civil war. He knew the consequences of the edict, and what forces that worked behind the curtain. Yet I belive the way he did things, resulted in the outcome that would prevent the heresy the longest amount of time.
Had he just slapped Leman Russ and Mortarion, and told them to get over it, the tensions could easily have started the war much earlier.

And to try and explain why The Emperor didn't prevented the heresy (tough he tried all he could) i'm going to quote myself from a previous thread about the Outcast Dead:
"He is a person who has one goal above all else. The peace and continued survival for the human race. Sacrafices must be made, and the hardest choices immaginable must be chosen. As humans are now, the way we are going to go out in the universe, will either be by natural disaster or war (either between humans and humans or against xeno). Either way our doom will be violent and painful. The Emperor is the only human, able to lead humans along a narrow path that leads to an end, not clouded in war or disaster.

As he himself says, it's not possible to be all powerful and all knowing at the same time. To lead the human race to "victory", he has to sacrifice his ability to shield them from themselves (in the form of Horus and his legions). And that's probably why the Heresy was allowed to happen.
I've seen people talk about how a genius like The Emperor, capable og seeing so far into the future, can not see the Heresy coming and prevent it. The answer is he has, but he simply dosen't have the power to prevent it. He can only try his hardest to win or make it a draw. "

[Billuriye]

I don't like "Emperor had an arching plan" idea because that means that plan depends on the creativity of the writers. And i doubt they can pull it. Writing good is one thing pulling out overarching plots that make sense to the readers is another.

Edited by Billuriye, 17 March 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Amadeus Baal]

I see what you mean about the trial at Nikea. Yes the Emperor knew about the denizens of the warp and how powerful a tool Librarians were to fight them. So yes to me it's totally illogical too. I think Nikea happened for a number of reasons. Though I don't have any of the books with me at the minute. I think that Nikea was more a trial of Magnus and his legion. Magnus and his legion were just getting far too good at using the warp . The Emperor was far more worried about what Magnus would find out about his previous dealings with the denizens of the warp, the bargains he had struck and what his future plans were, especially for Magnus himself. As Magnus's power and understanding grew it was inevitable that at some point he would come into contact with the Gods of chaos, beings even the Emperor himself would not tackle directly. The Emperor must have known how Magnus "saved" his legion and was probably really worried about the possibility of Magnus forming some sort of relationship with chaos gods. All I think happened was that Horus saw an opportunity at Nikea and took it. It was a perfect opportunity for the forces of chaos to remove a powerful weapon from their enemies and take Magnus out of the game, the Primarch chaos feared/ respected/wanted the most. The Emperor had to be seen to be even handed and so in banning the Librarians in the TS he had to do it in all legions. So it was rather the worries of the Emperor than logic that prevailed at Nikea with a little help from chaos.

As for the Emperor not being able to stop the HH from happening, I don't really agree with that. I think his arrogance blinded him to the first seeds being sown. He knew fine well about the power of the denizens of the warp. He knew how they had interfered with humanity before unification. They had already tried to interfere with his plans by spreading the infant Primarchs across the galaxy. Chaos would simply not just give up in trying to stop his plans, it had to stop him. The only real credible way of doing it was through his sons. History would tell him that most great empires fold in on themselves. To me he just thought he had complete control of the Primarchs and they would do exactly what he told them, because he told them to. If I look at Lorgar, the first heratic, he believes in the power of faith, rightly so as it's the main thing keeping the Imperium together in the 40k timeline. He has an innate need to believe in something greater than himself, to have a god. A human trait some may argue that mankind has needed since the dawn of time and not surprising considering the planet he grew up on. The Emperor slaps him down and one of two things will happen. Either Lorgar does what his father tells him or he will eventually find something else to worship, now what else is there out there that could be greater than himself? The gods of chaos waiting in the wings for their opportunity. The Emperor just believes Lorgar will follow his word blindly; how wrong was he on that one.

Same with Horus, if the Emperor knew what was about to happen he would have just stayed with the crusade or appointed a different warmaster or engineered his demise. He might have had to leave, maybe to do the trick with the golden throne and the webway. He just thought his sons would follow him blindly, asking no questions or looking for answers themselves and no matter how chaos interfered they would resist and follow him no matter what. So indeed he may have been all powerful but he certainly wasn't all knowing at the same time. I think chaos bided it's time until it caught him between a rock and a hard place. Once he realised chaos had got his claws into his sons and the HH had started, he knew the forces that were against him and it was then he knew the writing was on the wall.

I think the Emperor definitely had a plan, I think he had it for thousands of years, he just had to wait for mankind to catch up. He had to wait for history to be written up to a time that mankind was mentally and technological ready to accept and achieve his vision; to accept him as an ultimate ruler and the need for the great crusade.

I have no doubt that the writers and GW can pull it together. To take a sketchy written concept written along time ago and develop it the full HH we know today, it shouldn't be too difficult.

[Simo429]

Nikea is the bit of the heresy that really doesn't make sense.

1k Sons had to stop using powers of the warp but Space Wolves didn't?

[Billuriye]

Nikea is the bit of the heresy that really doesn't make sense.

1k Sons had to stop using powers of the warp but Space Wolves didn't?

Don't go there. Unless you want a swift thread lock by Mod Ragnarok.

[Týr]

As for the Emperor not being able to stop the HH from happening, I don't really agree with that. I think his arrogance blinded him to the first seeds being sown. He knew fine well about the power of the denizens of the warp. He knew how they had interfered with humanity before unification. They had already tried to interfere with his plans by spreading the infant Primarchs across the galaxy. Chaos would simply not just give up in trying to stop his plans, it had to stop him. The only real credible way of doing it was through his sons. History would tell him that most great empires fold in on themselves. To me he just thought he had complete control of the Primarchs and they would do exactly what he told them, because he told them to. If I look at Lorgar, the first heratic, he believes in the power of faith, rightly so as it's the main thing keeping the Imperium together in the 40k timeline. He has an innate need to believe in something greater than himself, to have a god. A human trait some may argue that mankind has needed since the dawn of time and not surprising considering the planet he grew up on. The Emperor slaps him down and one of two things will happen. Either Lorgar does what his father tells him or he will eventually find something else to worship, now what else is there out there that could be greater than himself? The gods of chaos waiting in the wings for their opportunity. The Emperor just believes Lorgar will follow his word blindly; how wrong was he on that one.

Same with Horus, if the Emperor knew what was about to happen he would have just stayed with the crusade or appointed a different warmaster or engineered his demise. He might have had to leave, maybe to do the trick with the golden throne and the webway. He just thought his sons would follow him blindly, asking no questions or looking for answers themselves and no matter how chaos interfered they would resist and follow him no matter what. So indeed he may have been all powerful but he certainly wasn't all knowing at the same time. I think chaos bided it's time until it caught him between a rock and a hard place. Once he realised chaos had got his claws into his sons and the HH had started, he knew the forces that were against him and it was then he knew the writing was on the wall.

You are arguing from the point, that the HH is the worst outcome, and you know things could have been different and better. In the Outcast dead it is hinted that the HH was the only possible outcome, and the only way to win is to make it a draw. You also argue from the Primarchs POV which is very flawed. They only sees a fraction of the Emperors plans.
The Emperor, as said before, is not all powerful and all knowing at the same time. He cannot lead humanity along the right path, and at the same time, save them from every obstacle and bump on the way. I belive he have forseen a lot of possible outcomes, and found that no matter what, he would most likely lose in the end.
So he opted for the outcome where he had the greatest chances of winning, and where he knew that he could at least make it a draw.

The HH was ininevitable in the way that, if things was changed (Horus not becoming the warmaster and so on) then the outcome could be a lot worse.

Edited by Týr, 17 March 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[Amadeus Baal]

Hmmm I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one. I feel the HH and being stuck on the golden throne is pretty much as bad as it gets bar extinction and even then some would chose death over life as it is now in 40k. Like I said,I'm sure the Emperor had a plan. I'm pretty sure that once the crusade was over he would have discarded the Primarchs or used them to further his goals, Magnus on the golden throne in ATS for example. I think you have to look at it with the Primarchs as the main focus because we are talking about the HH and it was them that brought it all crashing down. Without the Primarchs there is no HH. He could have had a million steps in a plan but that makes no difference if in steps 1 and 2 it all blows up in your face.

The way I see it is that the only things the Emperor can't really handle are the gods of chaos. The gods of chaos know he can hurt them too. Chaos cannot manifest it's full power in the universe without the help of some form of host or agent in the mortal universe. He needed generals to lead his armies, he decided to make the Primarchs. The greatest hosts/ agents in the universe chaos could use against him would be the Primarchs. The Emperor must know this so why act in way that opens cracks that allows chaos in. If the Primarch's don't fall to chaos, there is no rebellion, there is no HH. If there were some other form of rebellion and the Emperor has all his sons at his shoulders it would be crushed, totally. He made the Primarchs, so why not ensure through deed or behaviour that they never fall. They love him, some worship him as a god, keep them close, love them back, like a true father, respect them, show them the truth etc do that and they wouldn't rebel i.e no HH. Treat them with disdain and arrogantly demand they to follow you blindly. They then go looking for their own answers like any of us would do, chaos sees an opening or fills a void.... you get a heresy.

[Demus Ragnok]

I'm behind on the HH series.

However, having heard that Nikea had outlawed all psykers in the legions I was rather stumped when I read Descent of Angels.

And then I was even more confused when I read Fallen Angels.

And now I read somewhere that the Blood Angels will have librarians in Fear to Tread.

So I am confused by Nikea completely.

[Cormac Airt]

You are arguing from the point, that the HH is the worst outcome, and you know things could have been different and better. In the Outcast dead it is hinted that the HH was the only possible outcome, and the only way to win is to make it a draw. You also argue from the Primarchs POV which is very flawed. They only sees a fraction of the Emperors plans.
The Emperor, as said before, is not all powerful and all knowing at the same time. He cannot lead humanity along the right path, and at the same time, save them from every obstacle and bump on the way. I belive he have forseen a lot of possible outcomes, and found that no matter what, he would most likely lose in the end.
So he opted for the outcome where he had the greatest chances of winning, and where he knew that he could at least make it a draw.

The HH was ininevitable in the way that, if things was changed (Horus not becoming the warmaster and so on) then the outcome could be a lot worse.

This is essentially how I took it when reading that the Emperor leads humanity upon a knife's edge that only he can see, but is humanity's only chance. The knife's edge is the fine line between losing, and failing.

However, considering that we don't know what the alternatives would have been like and that the Emperor's ability to foresee became more and more clouded as time wore on, it's still rather up for grabs which turned out to be the case, losing or failing.

[esinhorn]

I am reading between the lines with what was revealed in KNF
Seems Chaos was influencing certain primarchs to call for all pyskers to be banned.
This would cause humanity to throw away the one weapon that really hurts chaos when the Heresy unfolds

[Raven Angel]

Consider if you will another possiblity; Chaos didn't set the HH in motion, the Emperor did. As crazy as that sounds, stop and actually consider it for a second or 10. See what you come up with.

[Kol_Saresk]

Nikea also wasn't a situation where the Emperor had total say. He had already established the High Lords of Terra. Basically the 40k version of Parliament and Congress. He reduced just how much power he had as far as rulership went. If the High Lords said "Get rid of the Librarians" then he couldn't stop them without looking like a tyrant which would have caused a different civil war when the average citizen decided they didn't want to live under a tyrant. And they made their decision based on the fact that there were beings who were already at demi-god level existences who had even more power. And Nikea was orchestrated for two reasons: One so the Loyalists would hesitate before using their Librarians and two, so Magnus would fall. If he was never censured, then he would never have returned to Prospero and he would have continued the Campaign.

And I'm surprised noone mentioned that the Emperor said that certain events could only be seen at certain times. I don't have a page number, but it was basically on the gist of, if the Emperor could see all of the future whenever he wanted to, everything would go according to plan. But since certain forseeable events required him to reach a certain present-time, there were some things that were blocked. Like when Eldran Uthran in Fulgrim and the Cabal in Legion tried to warn some of the Primarchs about the Heresy. When both groups talked to the primarch they chose, both groups were surprised to learn that Horus was already Warmaster. Which would give the impression that while they knew the End Times were coming for a while, they recently discovered the Herald of those times. And because the visions were recent, they didn't think that parts had already happened.

Like Magnus' attempt to warn the Emperor. I don't know if that was a massive fluff hiccup of Graham McNeill's or what, but he wrote that Magnus' vision of Horus turning traitor was too late because it arrived just after the Dropsite Massacre. But the vision Magnus had was an extremely recent one that he thought was a while off.

[Iron Lord]

It's worth remembering that the "Nikea retcon" predates A Thousand Sons considerably- it was in the Visions art book series- book 2.

[The 13th Goat]

Doesn't explain why the Emperor fell for such manipulation, but besides the suggestion in Outcast Dead

Spoiler

that the Emperor understands the full course the Heresy will take and is following that path because it's the only way to avoid a total loss

, the questions about why the Emperor wasn't more astute in preventing the Heresy are always really hard to answer, but are necessary parts of the entire story.

I'm glad we have a post to discuss this, as it has been bothering me.

In my opinion, the Emperor could very well know what was going to happen (although he has said before that something was clouding his ability to fortell the future), and the Edict was made as a sort of damage limitation; psychers at the very least would be suseptible to the influence of the warp, and in the librarian position meant those at risk would hold positions of great influence over the legions. The Emperor may have looked at the risk, and decided that while things continued under his pace he could shackle the librarians and prepare his counter measures; the Heresy happened to quickly for his plans, and so the Librarians were re-instated to fight the emerging threat.

Edited by The 13th Goat, 22 March 2012 - 06:41 PM.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The problem with it all though is that the Emperor considered an untrained psyker one of the most dangerous things in the galaxy, and that training them should be a priority. He then proceeds to issue a declaration that will fill his most elite, superhuman fighting force with untrained psykers, not even distinguishing them in any way. Congratulations, now various members of the Legions are ticking time bombs, waiting to explode into daemonic nastiness when their powers finally bloom, and they have absolutely no idea what's going on. Imagine what would have happened if one of the Primarch's equerries "bloomed" on the battlefield, sucking their Primarch into the Warp-rift that just opened inside their heads because they don't know how to stop drawing on the Warp.

Yep, real good move there... I can understand not having Librarians, but he could at least do something about the inevitable latent psykers that would enter the Legions...

[Billuriye]

When it comes to matters of warp, ignorance is the best shield though. SW at least showed that. Daemonic misshaps mostly happen when the individual give in to temptation rather than not being able to handle raw power. And you can't be tempted by something you are not aware of.

Edited by Billuriye, 19 March 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, but not knowing about the powers you unknowingly possess isn't going to allow you to shut off the power when you bloom. 40k has always presented the "blooming" of an untrained psyker as a very, very dangerous thing. Ignorance doesn't shield you from that, it creates the problem.

To put it another way, if you're really, really strong, and don't know it, not knowing how strong you are isn't going to stop you accidentally crushing someones hand when you go to shake it. Psykers work the same way. Just because you don't know you can set everything around you on fire just with a thought isn't going to stop you blowing everything up when you accidentally draw on said power unknowingly, and have no idea how to stop it.

[eyeslikethunder]

So he opted for the outcome where he had the greatest chances of winning, and where he knew that he could at least make it a draw.

The HH was ininevitable in the way that, if things was changed (Horus not becoming the warmaster and so on) then the outcome could be a lot worse.

Aurelian novella suggests that it was not inevitable and several potential futures and events are shown with different traitor legions some with what appear to be better results for the imperium IIRC

Edited by eyeslikethunder, 19 March 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Týr]

So he opted for the outcome where he had the greatest chances of winning, and where he knew that he could at least make it a draw.

The HH was ininevitable in the way that, if things was changed (Horus not becoming the warmaster and so on) then the outcome could be a lot worse.

Aurelian novella suggests that it was not inevitable and several potential futures and events are shown with different traitor legions some with what appear to be better results for the imperium IIRC

Okay cool. Haven't read Aurelian (it was way too expensive for me), but that could open alot of new possibilities is it's true.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I can immagine some warp entity showing Lorgar those things. Things from the warp has a habbit, of warping stuff (pun intended) and only showing some of the truth or a modified version of it.

Edited by Týr, 19 March 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[Piousservant]

Doesn't explain why the Emperor fell for such manipulation, but besides the suggestion in Outcast Dead

Spoiler

that the Emperor understands the full course the Heresy will take and is following that path because it's the only way to avoid a total loss

, the questions about why the Emperor wasn't more astute in preventing the Heresy are always really hard to answer, but are necessary parts of the entire story.

I'm glad we have a post to discuss this, as it has been bothering me.

In my opinion, the Emperor could very well know what was going to happen (although he has said before that something was clouding his ability to fortell the future), and the Edict was made as a sort of damage limitation; psychers at the very least would be suseptible to the influence of the warp, and in the librarian position meant those at risk would hold positions of great influence over the legions. The Emperor may have looked at the risk, and decided that while things continued under his pace he could shackle the librarians and prepare his counter measures; the Heresy happened to quickly for his plans, and so the Librarians were re-instated to fight teh emerging threat.

I can't say I'm a fan of the changes to Nikea and the related events, but I'm of a similar mind to you except I don't like the idea that the Emperor knew the course the Heresy was going to take. If he does then really his decision to strip the Legions of one of their best tools for fighting against Chaos doesn't make a lot of sense.

But if the the Emperor knows the Chaos Gods are up to something, but because his vision has been clouded he doesn't know what - then he is going to look at the Librarius as a potential way that Chaos will attack the Legions. The Librarius represents (to the Emperor) the easiest way for Chaos to get its claws into the Astartes and as such the Librarians look like they really are the greatest threat to the Legions.

Also, despite the two Lost Legions, it seems clear from the interactions between the Primarchs (and the little we have seen of the Emperor) that the idea that they could be corrupted by Chaos probably isn't something the Emperor considers as a possibility. So how else, other than the Librarus, could the Dark Gods possibly corrupt and/or destroy his Legions?

When you look at it from that angle, I think it can make a degree of sense.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Congratulations, now various members of the Legions are ticking time bombs, waiting to explode into daemonic nastiness when their powers finally bloom, and they have absolutely no idea what's going on. Imagine what would have happened if one of the Primarch's equerries "bloomed" on the battlefield, sucking their Primarch into the Warp-rift that just opened inside their heads because they don't know how to stop drawing on the Warp.

Yep, real good move there... I can understand not having Librarians, but he could at least do something about the inevitable latent psykers that would enter the Legions...

Perhaps that is what happened to one or both of the missing legions?

[Chain Axe]

@ The 13th Goat completely agree with you there mate, I'm completely flummoxed about this bit. I'm a bit new to the game as I just got into as my lads play but now I'm hooked so bear with me am not quite up with all the lingo and fluff yet.

so Rune Priest Ridcully thinks it was a stupid decision leaving the psykers unchecked and left on their own anything could happen. Ok I'll buy that, that makes sense. But when you read it, it sounds like the case to keep them is much stronger especially at the end with the bit with the WS. And when Magnus first get there it's like he's under arrest but the other primarchs or pyskers are not. It all looks a bit fishy to me as if it's a set up.

So about the HH starting. eyeslikethunder says in the Aurelian novella it says it's not inevitable and there are other futures. I have not got that far yet but that sounds fair as nothing is for certain. Piousservant and Amadeus Baal say that the emperor couldn't have seen it coming or he would have done something about it, ok I agree with that. but maybe that's what Nikea was all about. Amadeus Baal says that you didnt need some magic power to see the future but it was common sense that chaos would go after the primarchs, because they live in the warp and need help to fight the emperor and the primarchs would be top of their list. Ok I buy that bit. So because the Emperor treat some of the primarchs badly and went back to earth, he left them to their own devices and so chaos took its chance and corrupted them. So if he had kept them close and kept an eye on them or kept them happy they wouldn't have a reason to turn to chaos. Right that makes sense. But he didnt, he just thought they would do whatever he told because he's arrogant, so thats why he didnt see it coming. He didnt use his common sense and treats everyone badly anyway. And if anyone got in the way of his plans he would have just bumped them off. But once he knew the HH had started, it was too late, he knew he was done for and tried to play for a draw. Is that right? I hope so because that makes sense to me and I buy that. What I dont get is the bit about the golden throne and what that has to do with it.

[The 13th Goat]

@ The 13th Goat completely agree with you there mate, I'm completely flummoxed about this bit. I'm a bit new to the game as I just got into as my lads play but now I'm hooked so bear with me am not quite up with all the lingo and fluff yet.

No worries, brother. We're on hand to fill in your knowledge gaps!

So Rune Priest Ridcully thinks it was a stupid decision leaving the psykers unchecked and left on their own anything could happen. Ok I'll buy that, that makes sense. But when you read it, it sounds like the case to keep them is much stronger especially at the end with the bit with the WS. And when Magnus first get there it's like he's under arrest but the other primarchs or pyskers are not. It all looks a bit fishy to me as if it's a set up.

Prospero Burns kind of explains this; while the debate was raging, behind the scenes an incident was taking place that implicated the Thousand Sons in attempting to not only sway the Council but infiltate another Legion. To the Emperor, this was probably the first sign that the warp entities he had done battle with were attempting to corrupt the Imperium. By dissolving the librarians, its essentially closing the door to risk of demonic possession. After all, no psykers means no chance for corruption. Nikea was brought around after the Thousand Sons openly used powers of other loyalist forces, albiet briefly. This is my understanding of it anyway.

So about the HH starting. eyeslikethunder says in the Aurelian novella it says it's not inevitable and there are other futures. I have not got that far yet but that sounds fair as nothing is for certain. Piousservant and Amadeus Baal say that the emperor couldn't have seen it coming or he would have done something about it, ok I agree with that. but maybe that's what Nikea was all about. Amadeus Baal says that you didnt need some magic power to see the future but it was common sense that chaos would go after the primarchs, because they live in the warp and need help to fight the emperor and the primarchs would be top of their list. Ok I buy that bit. So because the Emperor treat some of the primarchs badly and went back to earth, he left them to their own devices and so chaos took its chance and corrupted them. So if he had kept them close and kept an eye on them or kept them happy they wouldn't have a reason to turn to chaos. Right that makes sense. But he didnt, he just thought they would do whatever he told because he's arrogant, so thats why he didnt see it coming. He didnt use his common sense and treats everyone badly anyway. And if anyone got in the way of his plans he would have just bumped them off. But once he knew the HH had started, it was too late, he knew he was done for and tried to play for a draw. Is that right? I hope so because that makes sense to me and I buy that. What I dont get is the bit about the golden throne and what that has to do with it.

Could the Emperor devine the future? Probably. Was it clear to him at the time? Some of the books suggest he was being blindsided. I imagine the Emperor's future telling abilities work like the Eldar Farseers; he can see all the multiple futures based on what He knows, but as the futures narrow he can only remember the past that was chosen and not the alternatives. I for one don't believe the Emperor wanted the outcome he got, as the stagnation that occurred afterwards was exactly what the Emperor didn't want.

As for the Golden Throne; it was a device that the Emperor was gonna use to help navigate the Webway, thus freeing humanities dependance on the warp. It took the Emperor's undivided attention to gain access and start to establishing his own webway, hence he left the Great Crusade. We all know what happened then!

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Nikea is the bit of the heresy that really doesn't make sense.

1k Sons had to stop using powers of the warp but Space Wolves didn't?

Oh course, the Alfather needed to maintain the capability to counter a threat from any of his sons.

As his executioner and leading a Legion that already recognised the threat poised by the Maleficarum, Russ both needed and could be trusted to retain a residual capability.

Not that this was warp maggick of course, no, no, no, the VI used the natural powers of Fenris through runes and totens. You know, that planet they came from near the eye of terror err. Which raises another issue for me, The VI have always enjoyed close links to Cadia - not least for their relative proximity. Yet, it is

Spoiler

Lograr who initially discovers Cadia in all it's heathen, choas tainted magesty

. Umm