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Who could possibly stop the Alpha Legion?


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#1
Gree

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It’s a question I’ve been wondering, after reading Long Games at Carcharias.

As far as I can tell, from reading the Long Games at Carcharias and the Chaos Codex, the Alpha Legion can apparently infiltrate and destroy a Codex Chapter without too much difficulty. Even Librarians and Chaplains cannot prevent infiltration into the chapter.

Now this begs the question of why haven’t the Alpha Legion taken out say, the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists. We already know that chaos-worshipping Alpha Legionaries who want to destroy the Imperium exist, and if they are clearly antagonistic they why haven’t they infiltrated a First Founding chapter like their hated rivals, the Ultramarines? Surely that would hurt the Imperium greatly.

Index Astartes: Argent Fists.

Homebrew Chapter. WIP.


#2
Wolf Priest Haelaeif

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It is called "The LONG Games" for a reason. Also, artistic license. The author did not intend to say "No on can stop the Alpha Legion!", he merely wrote a story.

#3
Myxx

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I had the same thoughts when I read that. My guess would be a combination of the resources involved and the limited number of Alpha Legion? The amount of time and resources necessary to psycho-indoctrinate the hivers before they even begin the selection process, the amount of effort necessary to destroy a fleet and then impersonate its commander (to the point of continuing a Regicide game) seems like a task not undertaken lightly. And at the risk of sounding like a smurf fanboy, infiltrating the Ultramarines seems to be a much taller order than the Crimson Consuls.
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#4
Kol Saresk

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Define "limited number of Alpha Legion" because we don't know what their strength is. Umm, don't know. The only reason I could say why is because destroying any of the First Legions(Loyalists and Traitors) would be hazardous for their business. Too iconic or somethin like that. That is the only reason I could see why.

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#5
the jeske

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Now this begs the question of why haven’t the Alpha Legion taken out say, the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists

takes too much time and resources to do . To pay/infiltrate the ad mecha to be safe on the gene seed testing side is not easy when it comes to sm chapter , but it is ten times as hard when it comes to an important parent chapter against which seed other marine chapters have their purity of gene seed checked . It is like comparing the use of doping in the 7th league an 1st. In the end the infiltration of first founding chapters aint worth the time and the resources not to mention that most of the AL just wouldnt have the resources to do it .

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#6
Brother Ambroz

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I haven't read the Long Games, but they did infiltrate the Raven Guard when it was a legion. They were able to disguise themselves well enough that even a primarch didn't notice anything.

Hated rivals? Thought the WB were the UM's hated rivals?

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#7
TmdRemm

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Well yeah, the WB are hated rivals as well, but Roboute did kill Alpharius,
Or.. he might have, maybe not, maybe it was Omegon, or something like that..

#8
Gree

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I had the same thoughts when I read that. My guess would be a combination of the resources involved and the limited number of Alpha Legion? The amount of time and resources necessary to psycho-indoctrinate the hivers before they even begin the selection process, the amount of effort necessary to destroy a fleet and then impersonate its commander (to the point of continuing a Regicide game) seems like a task not undertaken lightly. And at the risk of sounding like a smurf fanboy, infiltrating the Ultramarines seems to be a much taller order than the Crimson Consuls.



Well, they've had ten millenia to perfect said process and launch a chance at taking out the Ultramarines. It's not like they're rushing into this. They've had plenty of time to set up this.

It is called "The LONG Games" for a reason. Also, artistic license. The author did not intend to say "No on can stop the Alpha Legion!", he merely wrote a story.

The Crimsons Consuls are a strict Codex Chapter and they might as well be stand-ins for the Ultramarines for the purposes of the story. The story showed a single Alpha Legionary conducting a plan to take out a Guilliman-style Codex Chapter and succeeding completely with his intentions to take out every other successor chapter.

If one Alpha Legionary can do that then how about a few hundred operatives working to take out Ultramar?

EDIT: Oh, and they repeat the feat with the loyalist Chapter called the Emperor's Swords. They infiltrate and destroy the Chapter.

Edited by Gree, 07 May 2012 - 09:33 PM.

Index Astartes: Argent Fists.

Homebrew Chapter. WIP.


#9
Marshal Rohr

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Dude, you know we've been trying to figure out how to fight insurgencies for like 60 years now and still have no clue, right?


You can't fight water. You can boil it away, dam it up, salt it, but you can't fight it when its coming for you.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

 


#10
Gree

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Dude, you know we've been trying to figure out how to fight insurgencies for like 60 years now and still have no clue, right?


You can't fight water. You can boil it away, dam it up, salt it, but you can't fight it when its coming for you.


Yes, and my question is, why haven’t said insurgents destroyed a major First Founding chapter yet like the Ultramarines or the Fists? We already saw how well the Crimson Consuls and Emperor’s Swords did against the Alpha Legion. (i.e, not very well at all.) and the consuls might have as well been Red Ultramarines for the purposes of that story.

(Granted, the Crimson Consuls suffered from some bad luck, but even without that the Chapter would have been crippled)

In the case of the Crimson Consuls, one Alpha Legionary launched a series of events that felled an entire successor chapter of Guilliman’s stock. (With help from some other Chaos Marines used as henchmen) How would a few hundred Alpha Marines working together do? Actual Alpha Marines, not patsies.

Index Astartes: Argent Fists.

Homebrew Chapter. WIP.


#11
PJ1933

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I had the same thoughts when I read that. My guess would be a combination of the resources involved and the limited number of Alpha Legion? The amount of time and resources necessary to psycho-indoctrinate the hivers before they even begin the selection process, the amount of effort necessary to destroy a fleet and then impersonate its commander (to the point of continuing a Regicide game) seems like a task not undertaken lightly. And at the risk of sounding like a smurf fanboy, infiltrating the Ultramarines seems to be a much taller order than the Crimson Consuls.



Well, they've had ten millenia to perfect said process and launch a chance at taking out the Ultramarines. It's not like they're rushing into this. They've had plenty of time to set up this.

It is called "The LONG Games" for a reason. Also, artistic license. The author did not intend to say "No on can stop the Alpha Legion!", he merely wrote a story.

The Crimsons Consuls are a strict Codex Chapter and they might as well be stand-ins for the Ultramarines for the purposes of the story. The story showed a single Alpha Legionary conducting a plan to take out a Guilliman-style Codex Chapter and succeeding completely with his intentions to take out every other successor chapter.

If one Alpha Legionary can do that then how about a few hundred operatives working to take out Ultramar?

EDIT: Oh, and they repeat the feat with the loyalist Chapter called the Emperor's Swords. They infiltrate and destroy the Chapter.


For all we know the Alpha Legion may already have 'taken out' the Ultra Marines and are now simply operating in deep cover disguised as the Ultra Marines :evil:

'Alpha Legion? Here? No we ain't seen them in a long time, just us blue poster boys over here...' :ph34r:

#12
Azekai

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Easy answer- plot armor. The AL might be able to destroy a founding chapter much like they destroyed their foes in 'Long Games,' but unless GW is gonna 'squat' on the Ultramarines and claim they all died, every single one of them, it ain't gonna happen.

There might be rationalizations about why or how a founding legion would be more likely to resist an AL insurrection, but I haven't seen a good reason as to why yet.

Corruption is our armor. Infection is our weapon. Immortality is our reward.
 

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#13
Khestra the Unbeheld

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Yes, and my question is, why haven’t said insurgents destroyed a major First Founding chapter yet like the Ultramarines or the Fists? We already saw how well the Crimson Consuls and Emperor’s Swords did against the Alpha Legion. (i.e, not very well at all.) and the consuls might have as well been Red Ultramarines for the purposes of that story.

(Granted, the Crimson Consuls suffered from some bad luck, but even without that the Chapter would have been crippled)

In the case of the Crimson Consuls, one Alpha Legionary launched a series of events that felled an entire successor chapter of Guilliman’s stock. (With help from some other Chaos Marines used as henchmen) How would a few hundred Alpha Marines working together do? Actual Alpha Marines, not patsies.


They very nearly did that to the Raven Guard back in the Heresy.
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QUOTE (A D-B @ Sep 20 2012, 01:39 AM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=3180793]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]
"And then Khestra the Unbeheld, surely the lamest of the attending Black Legion commanders, suddenly died from exploding and everyone thought that was just typical of how much he sucked."

-- From[i] The Talon of Horus[/i], by Aaron Dembski-Bowden

#14
Gree

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Easy answer- plot armor. The AL might be able to destroy a founding chapter much like they destroyed their foes in 'Long Games,' but unless GW is gonna 'squat' on the Ultramarines and claim they all died, every single one of them, it ain't gonna happen.

There might be rationalizations about why or how a founding legion would be more likely to resist an AL insurrection, but I haven't seen a good reason as to why yet.


Well yes, how far fetched would it be for a major Alpha Legion warlord to decide to take down the Ultramarines? (Using them as an example) What if he spent centuries, if not millennia slowly infiltrating the realm of Ultramar? First the civilian population, then the recruiting and governmental centers of the Ultramarines.

Having read those Black Library stories, can anyone tell me that the above is completely implausible?

Edited by Gree, 07 May 2012 - 10:30 PM.

Index Astartes: Argent Fists.

Homebrew Chapter. WIP.


#15
Wade Garrett

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Relevant to current discussion:

http://www.bolterand...p;#entry3055967

"Better to die having exhausted one's strength than to fail without ever reaching your limits."

Perturabo, Primarch of the IV Legion "Warriors of Iron".


#16
the jeske

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Dude, you know we've been trying to figure out how to fight insurgencies for like 60 years now and still have no clue, right?

actualy that is quite easy. you elimintate the base of recruitment and food . You start by killing all the children and women . more of those dead , less insurgents in coming years. the main problem with insurgent/guerillas is that A can hide among civilians [not a problem if all civilians are identcial targets as guerillas] B get supplied with food/ammo/recruits by their country man [an insurgent can stay for years in mountains/woods/etc , but not without food].
So the easiest way to be done with chaos is kill every human in existance . eye gets smaller , chaos gods get weaker , it is harder for them to drop demons, buff their followers or even warp tide move their armies .

This way of doing war always worked for us and I doubt it will ever stop working.


Having read those Black Library stories, can anyone tell me that the above is completely implausible?

it would cost too much . both the social structure of ultramar [how it is governed , how people see stuff as right/wrong] would mean that the infiltration would have to start either pre heresy or just post nid invasion . Now pre heresy would be hard to pull off , because it would probably mean that the smallest of all legions infiltrated or tried to infiltrate the home worlds of all other legions. post nid invasion is easier [easier to switch dudes , replace people in the local goverment to support your agents etc] a bit , but still faces huge problem . first of all AL ships would have to operate with in the sector with pin point accurecy durning a tyranid invastion that blocks most ,if not all, communication . Then there is the post nid clean up where those agents could still die.
then there is the problem of new agents , no normaly sleepers are retrain by their families/kin , nothing like that possible on ultramar , even in high class families they start being imperial indoctrinated in age groups outside of their own families.

And that is just the problems with ultramar . Stuff like fenris or medusa is even worse . all in all if it isnt for the seed or some wider long term objective it just costs too much to do . Technicly yes ,if every AL operative would work for it probably possible , It would have to be a huge cross sector action [but then again huge operatin risk being found out more then small ones] .
the chapter would realy need some sort of a flaw in their recruitment[not a genetic one , but one like we recruit only from city X] to make it work and as far as the fluff we now have ultramarines ar flawless.

Edited by the jeske, 08 May 2012 - 05:12 AM.

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#17
Wade Garrett

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So...the way to save humanity from Chaos is to let the Tyranids or the Necrons destroy humanity
Your cunning plan, I do not believe you have thought it all the way through.

"Better to die having exhausted one's strength than to fail without ever reaching your limits."

Perturabo, Primarch of the IV Legion "Warriors of Iron".


#18
Trevak Dal

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Dude, you know we've been trying to figure out how to fight insurgencies for like 60 years now and still have no clue, right?


You can't fight water. You can boil it away, dam it up, salt it, but you can't fight it when its coming for you.


Yes, and my question is, why haven’t said insurgents destroyed a major First Founding chapter yet like the Ultramarines or the Fists? We already saw how well the Crimson Consuls and Emperor’s Swords did against the Alpha Legion. (i.e, not very well at all.) and the consuls might have as well been Red Ultramarines for the purposes of that story.

(Granted, the Crimson Consuls suffered from some bad luck, but even without that the Chapter would have been crippled)

In the case of the Crimson Consuls, one Alpha Legionary launched a series of events that felled an entire successor chapter of Guilliman’s stock. (With help from some other Chaos Marines used as henchmen) How would a few hundred Alpha Marines working together do? Actual Alpha Marines, not patsies.



It's a more "Real World" reason than anything fluff related: The First Founding chapters have Plot Armor, so they have some No-Name chapter that nobody probably plays as and probably only exists as a colorscheme in a book somewhere take the bone from the Alpha's.

"Our Turn" - Centurion Khârn.

 


#19
Brother Nihm

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Now this begs the question of why haven’t the Alpha Legion taken out say, the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists. We already know that chaos-worshipping Alpha Legionaries who want to destroy the Imperium exist, and if they are clearly antagonistic they why haven’t they infiltrated a First Founding chapter like their hated rivals, the Ultramarines? Surely that would hurt the Imperium greatly.

Who is to say they haven't?!

Look closely at those Ultra marines the next time you see them..
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#20
Hellios

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All loyalist marines have been taken over by the Alpha Legion... That is why one man is the spiritual liege of every space marine... They know him by one name... we know him as Alpharius!

#21
Kol Saresk

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Now this begs the question of why haven’t the Alpha Legion taken out say, the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists. We already know that chaos-worshipping Alpha Legionaries who want to destroy the Imperium exist, and if they are clearly antagonistic they why haven’t they infiltrated a First Founding chapter like their hated rivals, the Ultramarines? Surely that would hurt the Imperium greatly.

Who is to say they haven't?!

Look closely at those Ultra marines the next time you see them..

That's why the Fourth Company is blue and green!

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#22
Legatus

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Hm, that would also explain why the new Captain of the fourth Company is slowly turning the rest of the Chapter against the Codex Astartes...


Seriously though, I find the stories about Alpha Legion infiltration tiresome. So they can indoctrinate 4-10 year old children so that they are under their command after undergoing the 6 years of psychic indoctrination and thorrough screening employed to turn them into a loyalist Marine? Essentially, the Alpha Legion can just use magicks and win by default, thanks to the author.
But I guess if they ever started to make serious trouble, the Imperium could always sic the Space Wolves on them...

#23
Gree

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Seriously though, I find the stories about Alpha Legion infiltration tiresome. So they can indoctrinate 4-10 year old children so that they are under their command after undergoing the 6 years of psychic indoctrination and thorrough screening employed to turn them into a loyalist Marine? Essentially, the Alpha Legion can just use magicks and win by default, thanks to the author.


Yes, as far as I can tell the Alpha Legion can seemingly infiltrate anywhere and impersonate anyone. Apparently they are so good that even a Codex Chapter’s Librarius cannot detect them. What exactly could a Codex Chapter do against that? The Alpha Legion can take down a Codex Chapter on more than one occasion (Assuming that the Emperor’s Swords are a Codex Chapter.) and what could the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists do to strike back? Where would they even begin? The Alpha Legion have no central command or headquarters planet. Their movements are hidden with layers on layers of secrecy.

But yes that plays into part of my question. If the Alpha Legion is so good why haven’t good why haven’t they taken out the Ultramarines? It also makes the question of “Who was right, Alpharius or Guilliman?’’ rather clear.

Heh, people call the Ultramarines “Mary Sues.’’ despite seemingly the Alpha Legion can infiltrate anything while they themselves are unknowable.

Edited by Gree, 08 May 2012 - 01:48 PM.

Index Astartes: Argent Fists.

Homebrew Chapter. WIP.


#24
the jeske

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its not that easy . first to get the proper candidates [ and one needs more then a few because the loyalist outside of DA still dont achive a 100% success ratio of implantation ] and spread them in time . The changes are slow and subtel , small changes in fight doctrin . your psycho indoctrinated are helped to achive higher rank [assasintation , making them look better to get promotion faster] in the goverment/chapter/church . then comes the second wave of aspirants [the first may well think themselfs loyalists their whole life] . they come when the chapter/goverment/church is already changed and ready for the big change . So you do the same thing and it changes more . Maybe less codex , maybe they start using more not adeptus mars tech , maybe they start being more for the chapter/goverment/churche and less for the empire . Then the third wave . the third wave is actual sleeper agents ,some will be actual initaties while others will be replaced by their clones [and those will be grown and tought by the alfa legion] . the third wave is the dudes that make out the actual AL cell within the organization . After that you either bring on the destruction of the chapter/church/goverment or start corrupting it for real [for example if for years we have been upgrading our tech , then why not use this upgrade X , made by "brother AL infiltrator X" and that is a xeno tech which for example slowly corrupts most or all gene seed samples . desparate chapters are easier to go rogue] . the fourth wave is produced within the chapter itself , probably creating covens or trying to end up in the same place [like all our dudes end up in the apothecarium or in company Y] . after that it is just a question of assimilation . you could probably still harvest loyalist seed [but not implant it in to new marines] to both trade with other legions/bile and be safe on the ad mecha side [keep the "pure" seed for checks and paying imperial taxs].

but again this would be a huge operation and will both require tons of time and support .

I mean in our times actual long term sleeper agents that work for more then a single generation are ultra rare to get. Russia got one group in the US[2 generetion then found out] and some single generations in the UK. mosad is on the other hand very good at this .

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#25
Legatus

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Yes, as far as I can tell the Alpha Legion can seemingly infiltrate anywhere and impersonate anyone. Apparently they are so good that even a Codex Chapter’s Librarius cannot detect them. What exactly could a Codex Chapter do against that?

Nothing. Literally nothing. Space Marines Chapters have recruits (and periodically their Marines) screened by Librarians and tested by Chaplains to uncover possible chaos taints. Since the Alpha Legion have apparently found a method of mind control that is non-detectable, loyalist Space Marines can do nothing to stop it. But I am not sure the author writing that story was fully aware of the consequences, or of the screening methods generally employed by loyalist Marines.

I swear, even the main studio guys you would normally expect it from sometimes seem to glance over critical details of Space Marine background. The womanizing Lucas, anyone?




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