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Who could possibly stop the Alpha Legion?


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#26
Gree

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I swear, even the main studio guys you would normally expect it from sometimes seem to glance over critical details of Space Marine background.


Well Gav Thorpe wrote a story in the Chaos Codex in which the Alpha Legion infiltrated the Emperor’s Swords Chapter. He’s normally good about the fluff. As I recall the Swords rejected some candidates but others got in. The bigger question is why did the presence of possible brainwashed recruits not send warning flags through the rest of the Emperor’s Swords? Why was everyone not triple checked and everything in lockdown?

The womanizing Lucas, anyone?


Lukas is a bit more forgivable since the Space Wolves are a chapter of exceptions to the Space Marine norm, or at least in my book.

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#27
the jeske

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The bigger question is why did the presence of possible brainwashed recruits not send warning flags through the rest of the Emperor’s Swords? Why was everyone not triple checked and everything in lockdown?

because your checking the candidates for mutations , possible chaos taint and not for psycho conditioning .
its as if a guy was 18 joining the marines you would check his record , if he is healthy , but you wouldnt check if he was attending a military school in russia since he was 6 years old . Or that he spent the last 9 months before coming back home in the foreign legion.

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#28
Iron Father Ferrum

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I blame the inconsistencies of the whole "yeah, break 'em from within by brainwashing recruits" thing on the powers of Chaos. One thing that every Inquisitor has ever muttered in a novel somewhere is how Chaos lies, twists around the truth, and just simply hides until hiding is no longer necessary.
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#29
Kol Saresk

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I think the whole thing comes back to the idea of sleeper personalities I think it was called. It was from back in the 70's(Ironically before my time). The basic idea is that you mentally condition a person to act a certain way when they come into contact with specific triggers. Those triggers are something that is very familiar to them. Like Spike in Buffy, it was a song his mom samg to him. In the case of The Long War, it was a gang sign that all of the youths saw in the underhive. The reason it would escape detection is because the entire personality would he contained within this trigger. The Librarian would sift through the mind and only find images of the gang sign. They would find a strong connection to it, but the connection would be explained by memories of past association with the gang. So it would all work except for those who had too strong of a reaction with the process.

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#30
Gree

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I think the whole thing comes back to the idea of sleeper personalities I think it was called. It was from back in the 70's(Ironically before my time). The basic idea is that you mentally condition a person to act a certain way when they come into contact with specific triggers. Those triggers are something that is very familiar to them. Like Spike in Buffy, it was a song his mom samg to him. In the case of The Long War, it was a gang sign that all of the youths saw in the underhive. The reason it would escape detection is because the entire personality would he contained within this trigger. The Librarian would sift through the mind and only find images of the gang sign. They would find a strong connection to it, but the connection would be explained by memories of past association with the gang. So it would all work except for those who had too strong of a reaction with the process.


That doesn’t really make much sense. The trigger would have to hold things and instructions on who to obey and what to do. The point of a Librarian is to find those things. If they found the trigger they should be able to peer inside and open it up. Real life sleeper agents have never had an actual psyker carefully find pick every part of their brain.

That still doesn’t answer said question. If Librarians are useless against that technique why haven’t the Alpha Legion taken out the Ultramarines yet? Why isn’t Calgar screaming “HYDRA DOMINATUS!’’ then?

Edited by Gree, 08 May 2012 - 04:32 PM.

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#31
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He is. In secret.

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#32
Lexington

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Heh, people call the Ultramarines “Mary Sues.’’ despite seemingly the Alpha Legion can infiltrate anything while they themselves are unknowable.

Yeah, this irks me, too. It doesn't seem to me that the big-name Marine Chapters have "plot armor" so much as the Alpha Legion, since Legion, have gained "plot omniscience," which might actually be worse.

Edited by Lexington, 08 May 2012 - 05:37 PM.

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#33
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Well I can see lots of people getting things wrong. What Dan did, was he made them mysterious. He showed them doing things and left questions hanging in the air. That is far far away from "plot omniscience". Besides in Legion we see that not all is going as AL planned and they are even being manipulated, so I am not sure if we read same book.

And regarding infiltration of other chapters: They are risky, long-term, requiring very careful planning and lots of resources. This is reason why AL is not doing it all the time besides other reasons. For example: "Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances. (Sun Tzu)" Or what if plan (or part of it) was exposed and AL was unable to use it in future, or worse compromised agents in already infiltrated chapters? The less famous chapter you destroy the less investigation will follow and less or no info will be leaked.

Sorry for my bad englis but hopefully you get my point.
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#34
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Well I can see lots of people getting things wrong. What Dan did, was he made them mysterious. He showed them doing things and left questions hanging in the air. That is far far away from "plot omniscience". Besides in Legion we see that not all is going as AL planned and they are even being manipulated, so I am not sure if we read same book.

Oh, I meant more post-Legion, rather than in the novel itself. Not a huge fan of it, but the AL were definitely a believable element there. It's subsequent stories/implications, where they become like the Joker in The Dark Knight - able to do anything, because they've magically predicted and planned for everything ever.

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#35
Kol Saresk

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Actually the instructions would he part of the mental conditioning. Once they are there they are there. The CIA are the ones who originally came up with the idea. The idea was used on Spike in the last season of Buffy and without this idea, there never would have been a Call of Duty: Black Ops.

The only problem with this is the trigger has to be something that can only be used at a specific point in life. The Founding Legions have been around for ten thousand years. Anything that can be used for a trigger will be seen repeatedly through their lifetime after indoctrination which means that the first time they see it, snap. So it's not that it is foolproof, but the timing that wouldn't work. If you set the trigger as the sight of Gulliman, everytime they went into the Chapel where he is held, it would go off, which would most likely be at the wrong time. Same thing with anythin else the other Founding Chapters. That's why we only see it on the newer ones. It's easier to hide the trigger until the time it is needed. Or just do like Ghorstangrad and recreate the image through sorcery to project it into their minds.

It's not entirely foolproof. But if it worked, it would be very effective. And since not all of the conditioned make it through the trials by Librarius, some probably didn't have the trigger hidden deep enough.

And as far as we know, the existence of sleeper agents has never been confirmed. It's relatively public knowledge that it has been attempted but only conspiracy theorists believe that it actually took hold. The rest is pure speculation.

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#36
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Actually the instructions would he part of the mental conditioning. Once they are there they are there. The CIA are the ones who originally came up with the idea. The idea was used on Spike in the last season of Buffy and without this idea, there never would have been a Call of Duty: Black Ops.


And once it’s present it should be found by a mental scan.

The only problem with this is the trigger has to be something that can only be used at a specific point in life. The Founding Legions have been around for ten thousand years. Anything that can be used for a trigger will be seen repeatedly through their lifetime after indoctrination which means that the first time they see it, snap. So it's not that it is foolproof, but the timing that wouldn't work. If you set the trigger as the sight of Gulliman, everytime they went into the Chapel where he is held, it would go off, which would most likely be at the wrong time. Same thing with anythin else the other Founding Chapters. That's why we only see it on the newer ones. It's easier to hide the trigger until the time it is needed. Or just do like Ghorstangrad and recreate the image through sorcery to project it into their minds.


They used a relatively uncommon phrase that I believe at least the implication was sorcererey in the Long Games as well. The Alpha Legionary seemed to be able to not only active it whenever he wised, but direct actions and even include a termination set of instructions.

It's not entirely foolproof. But if it worked, it would be very effective. And since not all of the conditioned make it through the trials by Librarius, some probably didn't have the trigger hidden deep enough.


If it’s found then I expect everything to go into lockdown as the Chapter should re-evalute it’s recruiting practices. But apparently the Crimson Consuls did not discover the centuries long infiltration of their chapter until too late.

Well I can see lots of people getting things wrong. What Dan did, was he made them mysterious. He showed them doing things and left questions hanging in the air. That is far far away from "plot omniscience". Besides in Legion we see that not all is going as AL planned and they are even being manipulated, so I am not sure if we read same book.

And regarding infiltration of other chapters: They are risky, long-term, requiring very careful planning and lots of resources. This is reason why AL is not doing it all the time besides other reasons. For example: "Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances. (Sun Tzu)" Or what if plan (or part of it) was exposed and AL was unable to use it in future, or worse compromised agents in already infiltrated chapters? The less famous chapter you destroy the less investigation will follow and less or no info will be leaked.


In the Long Games, the Alpha Legion made sure that no survivors escaped to reveal what happened. And once they did a test run, taking out a First Founding chapter is a natural progression. Surely the loss of a First Founding Chapter would outweigh any possible investigation?

Edited by Gree, 08 May 2012 - 08:14 PM.

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#37
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There'll be something (very) minor about this in Betrayer, that I've been waiting years to mention. I don't mean that in the sense of advertising for the book; it's a very tiny and ignorable thing, but something I've now had in my head for over a year and a half, and I'm dying to get it into print.
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#38
Rune Priest Ridcully

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And with two sentences, we are now all distracted for weeks as we try and figure it out :lol: .
Perhaps the 1st Founding Chapters have better techniques/recruitment methods then the later foundings? Perhaps the skill and experience needed to pull it off is not actually that common and not something every Alpha legionnaire can do? Perhaps there is a secret war between two "Alpha legions" one half of the legion fell to chaos, the other didn't and the loyalist ones simply spend all their time protecting imperial chapters and institutions from chaos Alpha legionnaires infiltrating them/plots, but they are the smaller one and so can't cover all the possible targets? Perhaps each case of the fall of a chapter was masterminded by one of the primarchs?

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#39
the jeske

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And once it’s present it should be found by a mental scan.

that would only come on the scaner if A the psyker was doing an ultra deep scan , stuff like this isnt done unless someone becomes cpt/chaptermaster/some sort of inner circle . B librarians are [aside from tigurius] not emperor level psykers . they have to activly look for something [he would have to know the trigger to look for it in a human psyche for example] C the AL would have to be stupid enough to start with phase 4-5 initiates , which would mean they are incompetent while infiltrating a dangerouse foe. D a hide trigger word is just what it is . hidden . AL members were able to avoid detection from other primarchs and other legion librarians . this is how they are . E AL could breed the trigger word in to aspirants , It would take ages to do , but durning tests the trigger word would not be noticed as it would not be something outside of of the aspirants psyche , but something that always have been a part of him . It would just not blink on the librarians radars.
F deep scanes are done[as I said before for important chapter officers, inner circles etc or for GKs] but those are not healthy things . A sesoned space marines can weather them , but a young teen ? GK do it , they have a huge ratio of deaths even before any form of traning starts.

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#40
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I'm sorry Jeske, but I am having trouble understanding what you are trying to say to me. Is English your second language?

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#41
Kol Saresk

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Actually what Jeske is saying makes good sense. So I'll translate it for him.

The level of psychic probing you are suggesting is reserved for those with rank, not initiates whose psyche and personality are about to be replaced with another one through hypno-conditioning. And since not all Librarians are Beta-level plus psykers, it would mean that in order for them to find the trigger, they have to know what they are looking for. Otherwise, anything else is just pure happenstance and would only suggest taint in the individual, not a full-scale infiltration. Jeske also suggested that the trigger could actually be bred into the intended targets. It would take ages to do, but if it could be done then it would evade detection because it would not be any sort of deviation from the aspirant's psyche/ personality. He also mentioned that the deep level of psychic probing that you are suggesting is very taxing on the body of even a full-grown Space Marine. It's part of why the Grey Knights have such a low survival rate for their aspirants.

And only the Tenth Company of the Crimson Consuls was infiltrated. That's it. There was no centuries of indoctrination. Just the very last batch of aspirants. The reason they were so weakened was because their Companies had been spread out and systematically eliminated before word could reach the Chapter.

And the point I was making was the First Chapters have spent ten thousand years fully immersed in the environment of their recruiting grounds. They would notice as soon as something was added without the Chapter's approval. Meanwhile, Second Founding and onwards Chapters have no such familiarity. It was never instilled in them. And for Chapters such as the Black Templars who roam from planet to planet, picking up recruits wherever it suits them without ever having the same recruiting grounds, it would be harder to detect and prevent. If you never venture into an underhive until something really really weird happens. And then it would only come to the attention of the Chapter if word actually reached the Chapter. But the Second Founding Chapters are starting to become familiar with their recruiting grounds. It's part of why it is used on later Founding Chapters such as the Crimson Consuls and the Emepror's Swords and not the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists of modern 40k.

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#42
Khestra the Unbeheld

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I'm sorry Jeske, but I am having trouble understanding what you are trying to say to me. Is English your second language?


He's Russian, so yes. The gist of it is that the level of probe required to dig out a dissociative personality is probably not something most Epistolaries have the capability to do, since virtually every Librarian isn't to the level of the Emperor when it comes to mind reading, nor would such a level of deep scan be required until the subject was of the proper status to warrant it. Also, a proper dissociative personality, once implanted, theoretically would be indistinguishable from the original personality on the psychic level. It would be like having to look for a specific shade of yellow within the confines of a green field: it's just as real as all the rest of the green as well as the blue that it blended with to make green, so there'd be nothing to trigger any sort of alarm or gain any sort of notice, with the hidden yellow not coming to the surface until activated.
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#43
Gree

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The level of psychic probing you are suggesting is reserved for those with rank, not initiates whose psyche and personality are about to be replaced with another one through hypno-conditioning.


And where is that stated in the fluff?

And since not all Librarians are Beta-level plus psykers, it would mean that in order for them to find the trigger, they have to know what they are looking for.


Why would you have to be Beta-level to search someoe’s mind and why would an Astartes chapter no finecomb all their recruits?

Otherwise, anything else is just pure happenstance and would only suggest taint in the individual, not a full-scale infiltration.


If you find triggers telling a recruit to ‘’Hydra Dominatus!’’ then yes, if I was a Chapter Master I would suspect full-scale infiltration.

It would take ages to do, but if it could be done then it would evade detection because it would not be any sort of deviation from the aspirant's psyche/ personality.


Why would that evade detection? If the Librarians see something negative to the chapter then they see something negative to the chapter, simple as that.

He also mentioned that the deep level of psychic probing that you are suggesting is very taxing on the body of even a full-grown Space Marine. It's part of why the Grey Knights have such a low survival rate for their aspirants.


And where is that stated?

And only the Tenth Company of the Crimson Consuls was infiltrated. That's it. There was no centuries of indoctrination. Just the very last batch of aspirants. The reason they were so weakened was because their Companies had been spread out and systematically eliminated before word could reach the Chapter.


Brothers in the Reserve Companies were also comprised IIRC. The Alpha Legionary explictly mentions the Ninth. He also mentions the eith and Seventh, but the wording is unclear.

And then with the Emperor's Sword you have a good chunk fo the chapter compromised.

And the point I was making was the First Chapters have spent ten thousand years fully immersed in the environment of their recruiting grounds.


We don’t know how long the Crimson Consuls have been immersed in their training grounds either.

They would notice as soon as something was added without the Chapter's approval.


Really? How would they? The Imperial Fists recruit from a variety of different worlds that they can’t possibly monitor constantly. The Ultramarines rule an entire empire. Most Astartes supposedly spend most of their time away from war. How would they be able to notice a slow and subtle infiltration across an entire Empire of worlds?

Meanwhile, Second Founding and onwards Chapters have no such familiarity. It was never instilled in them.


Why would they not? In some cases some Second Founding chapters are a mere two ceutires younger than the First Founding Chapters.

And for Chapters such as the Black Templars who roam from planet to planet, picking up recruits wherever it suits them without ever having the same recruiting grounds, it would be harder to detect and prevent.


You mean like how the Dark Angels and Imperial Fists select their recruits?

If you never venture into an underhive until something really really weird happens. And then it would only come to the attention of the Chapter if word actually reached the Chapter.


Why would you not check your recruiting grounds for possible corruption?

He's Russian, so yes. The gist of it is that the level of probe required to dig out a dissociative personality is probably not something most Epistolaries have the capability to do, since virtually every Librarian isn't to the level of the Emperor when it comes to mind reading, nor would such a level of deep scan be required until the subject was of the proper status to warrant it.


Where is that stated in the fluff?


Also, a proper dissociative personality, once implanted, theoretically would be indistinguishable from the original personality on the psychic level. It would be like having to look for a specific shade of yellow within the confines of a green field: it's just as real as all the rest of the green as well as the blue that it blended with to make green, so there'd be nothing to trigger any sort of alarm or gain any sort of notice, with the hidden yellow not coming to the surface until activated.


Why would it be indistinguishable on a psychic level? How would any of us know what a mind looks like at a psychic level?

Plus your example makes no sense at all. If you are looking for yellow in a green field then you obviously search for the thing that is not green.

Edited by Gree, 09 May 2012 - 12:47 AM.

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#44
Yogi

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Your asking why the Alpha Legion haven't corrupted and destroyed a "important" chapter?

really?

Same reason Cadia still stands.

Same reason nothing ever happens.

40k is a setting that never changes. Not a story with a conclusion.

No one is allowed to destroy the Ultras, or someone would have.

#45
Kol Saresk

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Green is yellow. That's why the three primary colors are green, red and blue. From those three colors you get every color. Yellow is red mixed with green. The colors mix. It's like looking for a three-leaf clover in a field of four-leaf clovers. Unless you literally take apart every single clover, you will never find it. Ironaically, if you take apart the green to look for the yellow, all you get is yellow and blue. The yellow you were looking for just got lost in the yellow that makes up the yellow.

And it doesn't take a beta-level psyker to read minds. Although higher level psykers are a bit more versatile when it comes to psychic abilities as displayed in the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series. For the most part, the average delta-to-gamma-level psykers only display one ability. Telepathy, telekinesis, hammerhand, pyrokinesis and even fearsight are sometimes the only ability that a Librarian has. Sarpedon is really the only alpha-level psyker we see who has such a narrow range of powers. In fact he is so limited that all he could do is transmit, he can't even receive. And yes, I do use Eisenhorn and Ravenor as my sources for this. I could also use the Inquisitor rules as it limits what powers you can pick to specific fields and strongly suggests that you should be very picky about picking more than one or two powers since it could unbalance the game and destroy the narrative, which is the whole point of the game.

Also, if we went by everything we've seen concerning the sleeper agents, in the Emperos Swords they didn't "Hydra Dominatus!", they simply gained a much more destructive personality than what they had before. Some joined the Alpha Legion, some joined other warbands and some even gained leadership of their own warbands. In the Crimson Consuls, we do not see "Hydra Dominatus!" either. What we see are mindless people who are extremely receptive to certain people giving orders, in this case the Alpha Legion. So if one aspirant's trigger was activated and we went by the examples provided, either they would turn into a calm, calculated soldier who only obeyed the person controlling the trigger(a vegetable as far as the Chapter is concerned) or they would become a raging psychopath who would be put down like a rabid dog the Chapter believes he is. Both would be put down as the aspirant breaking under psychic scrutiny.

And I believe the Space Wolves novels, specifically the first one, mentions part of the psychic screening. At the end of it, IIRC, something was mentioned that if Ragnar had failed any one of the tests, he would have died. Also, the Grey Knights are looking for two things when they pick a recruit, a noble heart and a strong will. Psychic potential is a no-brainer but Alaric proves that they only need to psy-sensitive, not psy-powerful. But all three of these qualities would be tested during the initial phases of the recruitment process. And we always hear in stories including Inquisitors how a deep psychic probe could break someone's mind. Like what was said in the very first Gaunt's Ghost novel when Major Rawne was being tortured by a renegade Inquisitor.

And obviously they don't screen their recruits as deep as you think since we have countless Space Marines turning Renegade from all of the Chapters from Constantine of the Sons of Gulliman to Space Wolves of the Wolf of Fenris to Vaanes of the Raven Guard to that little worm from the Salamanders novels.(Not Nihilan although he counts to.) if every single screening was strong enough to find a psychically hidden personality that was meant to stay hidden, then none of these individuals should have ever become Space Marines. But they did.

Also, I would like to mention the warp shadow created by Hive Fleets. Going by the fluff, this shadow is nothing more than an immense pressure wave. If we looked at the warp as say water, and the shadow was actually compression, and the fleet was creating the compression, liquids(such as water) cannot compress. However, it can transmit that compression. Those who are receptive to the warp are hit the hardest by this compression wave. It's why the fluff states astropaths(the most psy-sensitive individuals in the 40k universe) always die in the presence of even a single Hive Ship(short story Fear Itself in the Fear the Alien anthology) and other psykers have to fight to retain their sanity.

When a psyker forces him/herself into another's mind in a psyhic probe, it has a similar effect. The mind is a bottle, your psyche is the air filling it up. Now put something else in there with the air, without letting any of the air out. Pressure will start to build. A deeper probe will require more of the probing psyker's power to enter the bottle. The pressure will start to build more and more. But there's one catch, a teenager's mind is a plastic soda bottle. Who has ever put a menthos into soda and then shook it up? Same effect but in a person. And when that cap explodes from the massive build up in pressure, everything leaves:sanity, personality, memories, everything. As the mind becomes more used and better shaped, it will eventually transition from a plastic bottle to a stronger container, such as a metal box. It will be able to withstand more pressure. But it still has its breaking point. Like Chaplain Iktinos when Sarpedon poured the Hell directly into him. And the Hell was nothing more than a psychic illusion. Its images were whatever Sarpedon thought they should be. A strong person would experience it and push on. A weak person would fall for it.

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#46
Gree

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Green is yellow.


Green is green, a kindergartener can tell you that.

That's why the three primary colors are green, red and blue. From those three colors you get every color. Yellow is red mixed with green. The colors mix.


Then the yellow is no longer yellow but green.

Oh, and it’s yellow mixed with blue, not red.

It's like looking for a three-leaf clover in a field of four-leaf clovers.


No it’s not, their all the same color, yellow is easily distuiguisble from green.

you literally take apart every single clover, you will never find it. Ironaically, if you take apart the green to look for the yellow, all you get is yellow and blue. The yellow you were looking for just got lost in the yellow that makes up the yellow.


You are making no sense at all.

And it doesn't take a beta-level psyker to read minds. Although higher level psykers are a bit more versatile when it comes to psychic abilities as displayed in the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series. For the most part, the average delta-to-gamma-level psykers only display one ability. Telepathy, telekinesis, hammerhand, pyrokinesis and even fearsight are sometimes the only ability that a Librarian has. Sarpedon is really the only alpha-level psyker we see who has such a narrow range of powers. In fact he is so limited that all he could do is transmit, he can't even receive.


Proof and sources? Actual quotes please.

And yes, I do use Eisenhorn and Ravenor as my sources for this.


I don’t recall reading anything like that in there.

I could also use the Inquisitor rules as it limits what powers you can pick to specific fields and strongly suggests that you should be very picky about picking more than one or two powers since it could unbalance the game and destroy the narrative, which is the whole point of the game.


Seriously? Are you actually putting forth game balance?

Also, if we went by everything we've seen concerning the sleeper agents, in the Emperos Swords they didn't "Hydra Dominatus!", they simply gained a much more destructive personality than what they had before. Some joined the Alpha Legion, some joined other warbands and some even gained leadership of their own warbands.


They turned against the Emperor’s Swords. We don’t know much beyond that.

So if one aspirant's trigger was activated and we went by the examples provided, either they would turn into a calm, calculated soldier who only obeyed the person controlling the trigger(a vegetable as far as the Chapter is concerned) or they would become a raging psychopath who would be put down like a rabid dog the Chapter believes he is. Both would be put down as the aspirant breaking under psychic scrutiny.


And why would they be put down if the trigger had been discovered? I would be mighty concerned if I discovered a psychic trigger in my Astartes chapter.

And we always hear in stories including Inquisitors how a deep psychic probe could break someone's mind. Like what was said in the very first Gaunt's Ghost novel when Major Rawne was being tortured by a renegade Inquisitor.


There is a difference between deliberate torture and scanning for purity.

And obviously they don't screen their recruits as deep as you think since we have countless Space Marines turning Renegade from all of the Chapters from Constantine of the Sons of Gulliman to Space Wolves of the Wolf of Fenris to Vaanes of the Raven Guard to that little worm from the Salamanders novels.(Not Nihilan although he counts to.) if every single screening was strong enough to find a psychically hidden personality that was meant to stay hidden, then none of these individuals should have ever become Space Marines. But they did.


The exception rather than the rule, but even a good man can fall and become corrupted, even if he was originally pure and loyal. Half the examples you have no idea of what caused their fall.

When a psyker forces him/herself into another's mind in a psyhic probe, it has a similar effect.


It does? Proof and sources please.

Edited by Gree, 09 May 2012 - 01:42 AM.

Index Astartes: Argent Fists.

Homebrew Chapter. WIP.


#47
Hellios

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Green is yellow.


Green is green, a kindergartener can tell you that.


That is what your culture tells you... In some languages they have a single word that covers two English colours or they migth describe something as being a totally different colour to what an English person would call it. It really depends on how you break things down. Are frogs and toads different... Yes but some languages and cultures do not distinguish them... They realise you have different species but to them Frogs and Toads are the SAME.

My dog also has red hair... but my dog has a black coat... Which is how the light interacts with the hair. It is not obvious my dog has red hair by looking at it... You would have to do a close inspection... However say you found a red dog hair at a crime scene... Would you suspect the owner of the black dog?


He is saying that if you want to find something so difficult to find you have two options... You can know it is there/where it is or you can take everything apart until you find it. The problem is they don't know that the AL have messed with these people and even if they suspect some of these people have been messed around they might not know where to look for a the trigger. The option that leaves them with (if they want to be certain) is to take the persons mind apart (A deep probe.) which could kill the person or leave them useless... and they may not have been messed with in the first place...


I also have a fluffy reason for why the AL haven't destroyed the UMs... They would want to destroy the UMs last :lol: They would want the UMs to see everyone else fall apart and know their doom was coming and still not be able to do anything about it.

#48
Khestra the Unbeheld

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He's Russian, so yes. The gist of it is that the level of probe required to dig out a dissociative personality is probably not something most Epistolaries have the capability to do, since virtually every Librarian isn't to the level of the Emperor when it comes to mind reading, nor would such a level of deep scan be required until the subject was of the proper status to warrant it.


Where is that stated in the fluff?


Where is it stated that every aspirant goes through a deep psychic scan prior to being chosen as an aspirant? Arguably, only the Grey Knights would use that level of mental intrusion on each and every potential recruit.

Also, a proper dissociative personality, once implanted, theoretically would be indistinguishable from the original personality on the psychic level. It would be like having to look for a specific shade of yellow within the confines of a green field: it's just as real as all the rest of the green as well as the blue that it blended with to make green, so there'd be nothing to trigger any sort of alarm or gain any sort of notice, with the hidden yellow not coming to the surface until activated.


Why would it be indistinguishable on a psychic level? How would any of us know what a mind looks like at a psychic level?


Missed the "theoretically", did we?

Plus your example makes no sense at all. If you are looking for yellow in a green field then you obviously search for the thing that is not green.


Yellow + Blue = Green. Properly-mixed green displays no yellow, but yellow is stll there. It simply won't seem out of place because there's nothing inherently wrong with there being yellow and blue in green, but you wouldn't think to check if the shade of yellow used was the wrong shade of yellow.
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QUOTE (A D-B @ Sep 20 2012, 01:39 AM) [url=index.php?act=findpost&pid=3180793]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/url]
"And then Khestra the Unbeheld, surely the lamest of the attending Black Legion commanders, suddenly died from exploding and everyone thought that was just typical of how much he sucked."

-- From[i] The Talon of Horus[/i], by Aaron Dembski-Bowden

#49
Kol Saresk

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Yellow is a color derived from the primary color red. Therefore it is a shade of red. When red is mixed with green, you get yellow. As you add more red, the yellow becomes orange. Eventually it turns back into red. If you mix red and blue you get purple. If you mix all three, you get black. Basic physics concerning the light spectrum. Didn't you play with paints in kindergarten?

And yes, if the yellow was separate from the green, it would be noticeable. But the whole idea is that the yellow is blended in with the green. As in it becomes a part of the green. So when you take away the blue to look for the yellow, all you find is the yellow that made up the green because like you said, green is yellow and blue. That means, before we even add blue, there is already some yellow. The yellow we are putting will mix in with yellow that is already there and become a part of the green. Do me a favor. Get some lime green paint. Put a drop of yellow. Stir it. And then take a picture and highlight where the yellow is. That is the whole concept behind this idea. The yellow we add to the green becomes a part of the green. To be honest I don't know how to explain this any simpler. I understood this stuff about colors when I was in kindergarten. Of course I was reading third grade-level books too so I might be the exception.

Look, I've noticed a pattern. You always ask a question. If it's not what you hear, you hide behind "Source! Give me a source! I'm not listening!" You asked why. Someone then asked how brainwashed recruits could even make it into the Chapter. We are giving you ideas. In fact, this sleeper personality is the only idea that has been presented. Obviously it works in the fluff because it has been done, not once, but twice. Maybe I should use the word "nascent" so it looks like it was straight out of the Codex. Now why doesn't it work on First Founding Chapters?

Why is the sky blue?(anyone who answers with physics behind this rhetorical question will be stared at with a look that could kill a basilisk)
Why does the sun come up?
Why does Cadia still stand with a single fortress on the ground and another Segmentum's battlefleet in orbit?
Why did the Necrons go from mindless machines to robots with personalities?
Why is the warp so bad?

Because GW says so. To actually destroy an entire First Founding Chapter would be so damaging to them it would not even be funny. Anyone who even thought of being a fan of that Chapter will be gone. Badly mauling a Chapter can instill motivation in fans, to help "rebuild" the Chapter by adding their own fluff to it. But kill it and it does. And out of the two Chapters that were infiltrated by the AL, both died. First Founding status would do nothing to change that. Except for the real-world reason just put up.

So to answer your original question as to why First Founding Chapters aren't infiltrated, it's because of the fans. They wouldn't like it very much. It would have a worse reaction than the Deus duology because there would be no new fans.

In summation, yellow is green when it is put into green because green is yellow and blue. The First Founding Chapters are safe not because they are super-awesome, not becausetheir Librarians scald the minds of aspirants looking for a drop of yellow in the color green, but because GW doesn't want to lose money. There, you have an answer.

And I re-read the Long Games. It was only the last two batches of aspirants who were influenced. Those aspirants were either Scouts in the Tenth Company or were newer full-grown Space Marines in the Ninth. All command staff was still loyal and were executed. The First Company was destroyed in the Revenant Rex, the Second and Fourth died at Phaetheon IV, the Third and Fifth died in the Damocles Gulf, the Sixth was jettisoned into space by the Tenth in orbit of Carcharias, the Seventh die defending the Fortress-Monastery and the Eigth were killed by the Black Legion in the Sarcus Sector.

Also, another thing that separates the Crimson Consuls from the Emperor's Swords other than the involvement of the Black Legion, is that the indoctrinated were supposed to commit suicide at the end of the operation.

My source for everything concerning the Crimson Consuls is pages 182 through 184 of the short story, Long Games at Carcharias of the "Victories of the Space Marines" anthology.

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#50
Brother Nihm

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