The Reflection Crack'd

[Valkyrion]

It's the scene in the forest that gives it away. It needs two readings, but if you read the dialogue in isolation, once with the Italics being Fulgrim and once with the italics being the Daemon then you'll realise it can only be one; the other way just makes no sense. I read it first time the wrong way round, and it didn't make sense. Switch perspective and bingo.

 

Also, it happened in the unwritten nonspace of book writing, IMO. I don't feel that it happened during the book - it feels like it does because before the scene in the forest you are automatically reading it as Fulgrim being the daemon. Read it again and it's all fulgrim.

[Ethrion]

It's the scene in the forest that gives it away. It needs two readings, but if you read the dialogue in isolation, once with the Italics being Fulgrim and once with the italics being the Daemon then you'll realise it can only be one; the other way just makes no sense. I read it first time the wrong way round, and it didn't make sense. Switch perspective and bingo.

 

Also, it happened in the unwritten nonspace of book writing, IMO. I don't feel that it happened during the book - it feels like it does because before the scene in the forest you are automatically reading it as Fulgrim being the daemon. Read it again and it's all fulgrim.

 

Yeah totally, the italics is the daemon trapped within Fulgrim.

[Kol Saresk]

It's the scene in the forest that gives it away. It needs two readings, but if you read the dialogue in isolation, once with the Italics being Fulgrim and once with the italics being the Daemon then you'll realise it can only be one; the other way just makes no sense. I read it first time the wrong way round, and it didn't make sense. Switch perspective and bingo.

 

Also, it happened in the unwritten nonspace of book writing, IMO. I don't feel that it happened during the book - it feels like it does because before the scene in the forest you are automatically reading it as Fulgrim being the daemon. Read it again and it's all fulgrim.

Yeah, that was one of my motivators for suggesting that they had already switched on page 2.

Here's food for thought though. What if Fulgrim and the daemon switched places before the story happened? Between Aurelian and the Reflection Crack'd? I'm suggesting this because going over his episode in the forest of mirrors, especially his thing about Ferrus Manus supposed to causing him guilt, combined with Lucius' dream from before hand where the eyes of the painting were supposed to already be old beyond imagining. Just food for thought.

[Crystal Geyser]

ANother question - if it was Fulgrim's soul lashing out at the daemon on the mirror forest, why was he trying to make the daemon feel GUILTY for killing Ferrus Manus? Doesn't he know daemons don't feel guilty...ever?

 

Better question...why DID the daemon feel guilty?

[Billuriye]

ANother question - if it was Fulgrim's soul lashing out at the daemon on the mirror forest, why was he trying to make the daemon feel GUILTY for killing Ferrus Manus? Doesn't he know daemons don't feel guilty...ever?

 

Better question...why DID the daemon feel guilty?

 

That was the part which made me think Daemon and Fulgrim kinda meshed up together. Like Raum and Argel Tal.

[Kol Saresk]

It's why I thought that they switched places before hand because something is trapped in that painting and its not Fulgrim.

[lilMAC25]

Spoilers.

 

 

Plus, this may have already been addressed, I havent read the entire thread.

 

 

 

 

You think Fulgrim is pure of heart??? Fulgrim is utterly corrupt. The daemon helped corrupt him, but either way, he's corrupt by Isstvan. He is briefly remorseful after he kills Ferrus, but explicitly states in this story he quickly got over that and has gone back to his corrupt ways.

 

Aegnor you are taking what is implied, and turning it into stone cast fact.

 

It could be that the daemon possesing Fulgrim is saying what Lucuis wants to hear, claiming that he is the real Fulgrim and has gotten rid of the deamon

 

Don't forget, there is the line at the end where he regards the portrait with a 'secret smile'

 

Until we hear it from Graham, you can't assume anything

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choke_pear_%28torture%29

[lilMAC25]

I found The Reflection Crack'd enjoyable for a number of reasons, not least of which is that the Emperor's Children are shown to have continued to fall; that their actions in earlier titles had consequences, and that we're seeing the differentiation between the Emperor's and Horus' forces made more clear. The theme of freedom is apparent in this story arc: Fulgrim swaps loyalty to the Emperor for slavery to a daemon in Fulgrim, but by the events of The Reflection Crack'd, he's broken free again. However, this freedom is cancerous – it's entropy and chaos; confusion and misdirection rather than self-control.

 

Fulgrim's development into the being we see in The Reflection Crack'd is a synthesis of his baser nature with the daemon; the power struggle and masochistic relationship between the two ultimately leads to Fulgrim being master of his own destiny, but only by subverting everything he once held dear (his perfectionism).

 

The repetition of symbols like the mirrors, the painting (representation), mistaken identity... these are symptomatic of misdirection and statements of identity, which are subverted and used to show that Fulgrim 'triumphs' over the daemon by the most petty manner possible. He regains his flesh but becomes worse than the daemon! I think McNeill did a great job in employing the repeated mirror motif to demonstrate how the Primarch (and his Legion) has fallen further than we knew; and has built him up to be a complex villain. I'll look forward to seeing the Emperor's Children appearing in later books in the series. :)

Very interesting, indeed.

 

A (IMO) very subtle hint that it was indeed the daemon trapped in the portrait, was the portrait itself. At the moment of Fulgrim's ascension (IIRC, that was when he gave into daemonic possession initially) it was a transcendent painting. It was resplendent, glorious and amazing beyond belief even to a being (Lucius) who is addicted to sensory input... the more amazing, the more pleasure he gains from it. All because the essence of Fulgrim (the most perfect of all the Emperor's creations) was trapped in it.

 

In The Reflection, Crack'd the image was a relatively paltry simulacrum that (again, according to Lucius) never approached the beauty and power of the painting as it was before. All because it wasn't Fulgrim trapped in the painting, but rather a crude (by Primarch standards) likeness.

 

As much as I'd like it to be Fulgrim trapped in the painting, always wanting to be free, always guilty about his brother's death (but still blaming everyone else)... the above says to me that it WAS the daemon trapped in the painting. That means, as others have stated, the decent into depravity was 100% Fulgrim. Which of course means that he is 100% a traitor.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I don't think Fulgrim has been in control of his body since Isstvan V, or maybe even before. It may be him in the painting but if is not that dose not say that he is in control of his body. I think maybe there are Two daemons fighting for control of his body. The first, and i think the one in the painting, was what tainted him from the Laeren blade that Lucius has now. The one in control is from the blade that almost killed Horus.

 

 

To me the story was about the corruption of Lucius not Fulgrim. When the Laeran blade is able to take out the Terran blade Lucius looses his last hold on his good self, what there was of it. At the end i think he vouches for Fulgrim because he finally looses control of him self. heck It might even be Lucius in the Painting at the end.

 

[Arkangilos]

Even if he has taken back control, if you think about it, there is nowhere else for him to go except for down the path the daemon was setting him.

 

The daemon murdered his brother, killed his brothers' children, and cast off his father. Even if he got control of his body back from the daemon, what is he going to do? He certainly can't go, "Dad, I was possessed!" No one would trust him ever again.

 

The only thing he could do was say, "Well, I killed my favorite brother. There is nothing left for me over there." And Slaanesh was like, "Well, you can be happy here. Forget what you had done, and spread my glory. You will only feel pleasure, I promise."

 

With no where else to turn, that is what he chose.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Am I seriously missing something here?

 

The whole scene in the crystal forest... was the daemon finding out Fulgrim managed to move from the painting to other reflections of his body. He thought it was Ferrus because the daemon was a Warp being and thought that Ferrus, being a primarch and incredibly strong willed - not to mention more than likely part Warp-stuff anyways - resisted being devoured and decided to follow Fulgrim around. Which wasn't the case, but still. Remember, Lucius found Fulgrim in the painting after the crystal scene.

 

Then when they put him the special device of unlimited pain, he rips it off before it can do what they intend for it to do. Remember? His reaction isn't jolting, of one who is getting his body back, but of extreme regret that he can't taste more of the device. Why would he deny himself of that pleasure if he already has his body back? Would he not let them go crazy is he was truly a corrupted Fulgrim? The only situation that makes sense is that the daemon was still there and he couldn't risk the device doing what the leaders of the Emperor's Children intended for it to do.

[Bulwyf]

I honestly don't see how there is any confusion as to who is Fulgrim and who is in the painting. It is clearly obvious that the painting now holds the demon and Fulgrim is in control of his body again. The conversation in italics only remotely makes any sense if it comes from a demon. The reflections in the crystal forest only make sense if it is the demon trying to make Fulgrim feel guilt over killing his most beloved brother.

 

Why Fulgrim if he was the one still in the painting even attempt to make a demon feel guilty? Why would Fulgrim conjure up visions of Ferrus? Why would Fulgrim promise *the demon* to show him new realities to experience or however it was worded. Why would Lucius look at the painting and reflect that it was once very vibrant but now it was dull except for the eyes which were "old beyond imaging"?

 

The only explanation is that at some point between Istvaan and this story the primarch took back his body. Didn't Lorgar give some foreshadowing in another book by telling the demon on Horus's ship that he was in for a surprise? Fulgrim allowed the demon to take control and when he wanted his body back he simply took control of it. While this does destroy all the existing lore about Fulgrim and the demon and remove the tragic element it answers one of the questions that always bugged me about Fulgrim: why was he the only primarch weak enough to let a demon take control and keep him locked down? If primarchs were that weak then surely the Chaos gods would have simply matched different gods to different primarchs that had roughly the same weakness the gods embodied and just take control.

 

Need Angron? Send in a Khorne demon. Need the Thousand Sons? Why not just send in a Tzeentch demon to take over ol' One Eye.

 

So for me it is in no doubt that Fulgrim apparently had this side to him that the demon could initially tempt but it was Fulgrim himself that really took the plunge and embraced Chaos. He trapped the demon in the painting as punishment for its hubris of taking over his body and keeping it trapped is simply the worst torment imaginable for a Slaneesh demon.

 

So welcome back Fulgrim. I suppose it is some relief to see that it really was you almost the whole time in the Heresy.

[minigun762]

I honestly don't see how there is any confusion as to who is Fulgrim and who is in the painting. It is clearly obvious that the painting now holds the demon and Fulgrim is in control of his body again. The conversation in italics only remotely makes any sense if it comes from a demon.

 

After reading that section again, it does seem most likely that Fulgrim is back in control somehow and frankly I like it better that way. It makes for a more interesting story to have Fulgrim in control, it reinforces the power of a primarch (it always annoyed me slightly that the daemon could keep him trapped forever) and it makes the corruption of the legion and Fulgrim that much more meaningful .

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i kinda doubt the daemon had fulgrim captive for very long. once fulgrim learned of his "imprisonment", i think he may have spent more time studying the creature than actively being is prisoner.

 

WLK

[Kazak1920]

I'm really pissed off and disappointed about what happened in that story... Damn it, I hoped all the time, that Fulgrim will be trapped forever in this picture. At least his soul would be "loyal" in that case, and I wouldn't care about what daemon in his body is doing. I was really moved when I read about Fulgrim's guilt, when he can't believe what he done to his father and Legion. At least this was compensation for retarded death of Demeter at Istvaan III and Santar at the hands of even more retarded Kaersoron. And of course author had to turn everything upside down. And for what, damn purpose? I would like to read about daemon deceiving everybody around that he is real Fulgrim, and pushing "his" Legion even further on the road to damnation; than real Fulgrim becoming a dumbass after all he saw and tell on Istvaan V. Ehhh, I lost all my desire to read next books after that. I need break from HH for a while.

 

PS. Sorry for any mistakes, english is nor my native language and I always had problems with times in school :rolleyes:

[Godsmote]

I emailed the author and he replied that everything will be made clear in Angel Exterminatus.

[Phoebus]

Word from the man himself counts not a single drop in the ocean more than an interptation by a reader. Once a work is out, a creator's word doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, I don't quite understand the philosophy about the Author's word not meaning anything..... It's THEIR book.

 

That said, since the author's insight is not publicly known, it is still speculative.

Literary criticism since the 60s says you're wrong ;)series. :huh:

Of course, at the end of the day, said literary criticism is informed by an era wherein limitations in travel, communication, etc., precluded most readers from ever meeting the author of the works they read. In this day and age, outright dismissal of the author's stated intent strikes me as monstrously arrogant.

 

Mind you, I'm not arguing that the reader isn't entitled to their own opinion or take. I'm saying that an adult, objective individual can hold such opinions while also accepting that the author's intended outcome differs. :D

 

I emailed the author and he replied that everything will be made clear in Angel Exterminatus.

Excellent. :)

[Kol Saresk]

Whoa, threadomancy!

[Morollan]

The daemon murdered his brother, killed his brothers' children, and cast off his father. Even if he got control of his body back from the daemon, what is he going to do? He certainly can't go, "Dad, I was possessed!" No one would trust him ever again.

 

I had this interesting idea floating around in my head that Fulgrim would, after tens of thousands of years inside the painting, somehow manage to get control of his body back. Obsessed with guilt he realises that only one thing that could absolve him of his part in the fall from grace that humanity has suffered since the Heresy would be to bring about the rebirth of the Emperor.

 

The old fluff had a name for beings who had survived possession by a daemon - Illuminati. The Illuminati are a secret society who are rounding up the Emperor's genetic sons (not Primarchs, actual sons) and planning on sacrificing them at an appointed time in order to bring about the return of the Emperor. My idea had Flugrim secretly helping them and at the final moment offering himself as the vessel for the Emperor's reincarnation, even though his soul would be obliterated in the process. Would have been a nice way to move the fluff on if they ever got beyond the whole "The Golden Throne is failing", "Two minutes to midnight" bit. Oh well, enjoyed the story anyway and thought it was very well written.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Basically this short story rectified the problem that some people had before at the the end of Fulgrim when it seemed like it had been a bit of a cop out. That Fulgrim the primarch hadn't turned and it was a daemon instead, the real Fulgrim still being loyal but trapped for ever. A lot of people took issue with this at the time.

 

However, now it's all be sorted out, Fulgrim was under the thrall of a daemon, it momentarily broke his spirit as he killed Ferrus and as a result trapped him but Fulgrim had already started down the route to corruption and eventually broke free and while initially feeling remorse over the murder of his brother he ultimately couldn't resist the urges and seduction that Slaanesh had shown him. The "real" Fulgrim has turned, he *is* a proper traitor. :tu:

Exactly. And just some random daemon possessing his body shouldn't theoretically be elevated to Daemon Primarch-level on par with Magnus, Angron, Mortarion, Lorgar, and...Perturabo(maybe?).

Why would Slaanesh not just elevate a load of daemons to Daemon Primarch level if it doesn't actually require a Primarch. Clearly the Chaos Gods can already manifest daemons physically more powerful than any human/superhuman aside from The Emperor and possibly Malcador, so there's some sort of a component to a complete Primarch himself turning to Chaos and himself becoming a Daemon Primarch that creates something vastly more powerful.

 

Daemon Primarch Angron, for instance, is supposed to be more powerful than An'ggrath The Unbound and any other servant of Khorne, aside from Doombreed himself. And Doombreed is only mpre powerful because he's the most ancient of Khorne's Daemon Princes, and nearly as old as Khorne himself.

 

I'm glad Fulgrim got to be unwillingly dragged into it. That was a tragic twist.

I'm more glad that Fulgrim is properly the Primarch himself for the rest of history, truly fallen and an abomination against mankind. An equal to his daemonic brothers.

 

 

 

It's also interesting in light of the Illuminati and Exorcists Chapter. The Illuminati are people who have been daemonically possessed and have mastered the chaos within themselves and forced the daemon out. Same deal with the Exorcists Chapter's Marines. Every Exorcist Scout in training is purposefully possessed and has to learn to force the daemon out to become an Exorcist.

This means Fulgrim forced the daemon out of his body and became immune to possession...so he must have voluntarily allowed himself to succumb to Chaos again later on.

They managed to have Fulgrim both involuntarily AND voluntarily fall to Chaos.

Crafty.

[Cyrox]

I'm sure it will all become clear when we read Angel Exterminatus.

 

We know that the HH team are (for at least a short period,) running with the idea that its a deamon posessing Fulgrim. This is shown during a scene in Aurelian where Lorgar sees Fulgrim and knows immediatley thats it's not him

 

Here is the scene - note the last paragraph:

 

Lorgar was still staring at his final brother. He’d not taken his eyes off the last figure since he’d looked away from Perturabo.

‘Lorgar?’ Horus almost growled now. ‘I am growing evermore weary of your inability to adhere to established planning.’

Curze’s chuckle was a vulture’s caw. Even Angron smiled, his scarred lips peeling back from several replacement iron teeth.

Lorgar slowly, slowly reached for the ornate crozius mace on his back. As he drew the weapon in the company of his closest kin, his eyes remained locked on one of them, and all physically present felt the deepening chill of psychic frost riming along their armour.

The Word Bearer’s voice left his lips in an awed, vicious whisper.

‘You. You are not Fulgrim.’

 

Hopefully we will find out if, how and when Fulgrim managed to regain control of his body. I rather liked the idea of fulgrim being trapped in the corner of his mind while a deamon was in control, but i'mn sure whatever they write will be good