MASSIVE FOLLOWUP POST 2: THE RECKONING
Responses to Aegnor, Brother Tyler, SnakeoilSage, Razblood, TrashMan, PorridgeMeister, Grey Hunter Ydalir,
[Response to Valkyrion]
* * *Brother Tyler
No, the purpose of the Liber Astartes forum is not to ask "why?" The purpose of the forum is to allow members to discuss and develop their DIYs.
And asking "why" is the most critical, most useful, and probably most effective element of doing that. Both in the sense of asking for in-universe explanations of the things happening in the IA and asking for out-of-universe explanations of the author's decisions.
* * *SnakeoilSage
So I guess this argument is basically about whether canon fan-fiction is "better" than non-canon fan-fiction, while the creators of the canon itself look down on all of us.
Actually, the beauty of the whole "there is no canon" angle is that we're just as valid as they are. Just with a slightly different publishing deal.
And better editing.
* * *Razblood
An example is "Super-Draigo". According to the established "canon" Primarchs were as far beyond Astartes as the Emperor was beyond Primarchs. This however is changed by the "canon" that Draigo carved his name into Mortarions heart.
Ah, but there are two approaches to canon - is canon the weight of material, or the recency.
Personally, I go more with the weight - the line that has been espoused the most is the most accurate. Thus, that whole Draigo thing NEVER HAPPENED BECAUSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.
And so I sleep well at night.
* * *Dark Apostle Thirst
1) Sorry for not responding to this sooner, I didn't see it. I feel slightly compelled to, given that I was the one you quoted.
Actually, I was one of two people. Technically, I quoted you and a fictionalized version of myself.
I must remember to collect some royalties.
2) Actually, this is a club. There's one problem though - it's not an exclusive club.
A club is an organization.* We are not an organization. There is no list of members, there is no leadership, there are no meetings. We might be a community, but we are not a club. We do not control who enters, and (perhaps most importantly) we do not get to determine what beliefs are acceptable amongst the membership and what are not, and justify those determinations with 'it's the Law of the Liber'. And we don't get to do that last because of all those other things.
It might be fair to call us a community. But the regulars of the Liber Astartes are not a club.
*Did you really miss that club was being used in the sense of "exclusive organization with barriers to membership"?
Generally I'd agree with you. In the vast majority of cases, even. But there's always an exception. Always.
Why should that be accepted? Because some ideas simply aren't worth pursuing. You know this as well as I do - and the fact that I can say that and you understand is reason enough.
Not everyone will agree with that, and I know I can't force that belief on anyone. Maybe I can't even convince you. I just now that if this was practiced, Wargamer's thread wouldn't have been closed twice.
So you're not wrong for telling him he should not pursue his idea without offering a logical reason why not, he's wrong for having an idea that you know to be wrong.
If an idea is not worth pursuing, demonstrate that it is not worth pursuing. It being against the community's preference is not a reason in and of itself, and it should not be used as one, for three reasons.
First, its utility as a tool of persuasion is basically nil. You are relying on the author respecting the opinion of the faceless guy on the internet telling him his ideas are bad and so he should stop having them because you say so. Why is he going to listen to you, again? I didn't, back when I was young. I listened to the people who explained their criticisms.
Second, it is pathetically easy to defeat: "a lot of people here don't like this idea as a rule" -> "I don't care". And all is lost for you within seconds. You have two choices: give up, or begin using reason. And if you choose the second, he is now disinclined to listen to you because you showed up and began pushing him around without explaining yourself. Well done.
Third, as I've mentioned before, it makes people lazy and unquestioning, which is bad in a critic. You end up believing things that are wrong and passing those beliefs on. This is dangerous and bad.
And besides, as you admit yourself, you can't force this belief on anyone. You can't force any
belief on anyone. You've just admitted that what you're doing won't work! So why are you doing it?
Completely agree. The Liber exists to help raise the quality of any Index, and having the same ideas over and over again would be counter-productive to raising quality. Some ideas just don't work though, such as having super man as your chapter master and all the marines are recruited from Kryptone. Does the not sound reasonable?
Except reasons why that chapter is a bad idea are easy to produce.
1) Superman is an alien. The Emperor would have purged him.
2) Superman is an alien. He can't be a Space Marine due to genetic incompatibility.
3) Superman's lifespan is not 30,000 years plus.
4) Superman derives his powers from the radiation of Earth's yellow sun. He is thus ill-suited to life as an interstellar warrior.
5) Krypton blew up.
6) If Superman got possessed, he would be incredibly dangerous. The Imperium would have wiped him out long ago (and Superman might even have cooperated).
7) People who read this idea will find it jarringly out-of-keeping with the 40K universe - it's a blatant reference to another fictional character whose tone is very inconsistent with that of 40K.
8) Superman would likely hate the Imperium. They're evil, after all. So evil.
9) Superman would be insane, having witnessed the deaths of hundreds, thousands, or even millions of friends and loved ones over the years.
If reasons are easy to produce, they should be produced, because it is easy - it will gain you much at little cost. If reasons are hard to produce, should you be criticizing the idea in the first place?
In short: explaining yourself will be more effective, no more difficult, more friendly, and more morally consistent with the open and free nature of the Liber Astartes. Doing things your way doesn't work, as you've admitted yourself. And it provides a reliable check on critical impulses by forcing the critic to think about his own criticisms. And if you think about it, there is no reason for there to be exceptions to this for ideas you particularly dislike.
* * *TrashMan
I read that as - if you can't support and say nice things to the IA maker, don't say anything and keep your oppinion to yourself.
I never liked that approach. Stinks of dishonesty.
No. If you express your opinion to the IA maker, and he rejects it, and rejects the counter-argument, leave it alone. You are wasting your time, and his.
But Bob might be aggrivated by Jacks IA.
Why should Bob just walk away? Why doesn't Jack just walk away?
First, because Bob doesn't have to read Jack's IA if he doesn't want to.
Second, because even if Bob drives Jack away from the forum, the IA will still be out there.
And third, because the goddamn forum exists to help Jack create his chapter, not for Bob to complain about things he doesn't like
* * *PorridgeMeister
@1: In my view, the Liber is a club, but is an open one where anyone can join at any time and give their say on what they want. Despite this, I say it is a club because whenever someone posts a thread, there is always a certain group of people who will respond with their view.
Much like in all communities, there are some people who are more visible and more vocal than others. But there are no barriers to membership whatsoever. I think clubs with that feature are few and far between.
Regarding sources, we can hardly be expected to include sources in our argument if said sources have already been cited - what matters is that you have shown that you think something should be changed in order to improve the IA, then you say what it is, even if it has already been said. As someone who started off by posting a rather bad IA in this forum, I was helped when members who thought something was wrong were supported by others saying the same thing, as it reassured me that I needed to change something.
Then say "I agree with the reasons of X".
@2: If a member posts a thread which is completely contrary to what has been enumerated many times as a bad idea, and expects us to help them, then they should be ready to take a certain amount of flakk when members point this out to them and the OP tries to defend it. This is because if I say my marines are ponymen from Jupiter and were born out of Abaddon's left eyeball, how can you not comment on that - that is unless I outright state "I don't want people to comment on this", which I think people should do in the future so we avoid all this heated debate on something that is not going to change.
People don't read old threads, FAQs and guides. The ones who do are aberrations. Indeed, the whole community of regulars here are aberrations simply because they are regulars.
In any case, I am not saying don't disagree with people. I'm saying explain yourself when you do it. If you can't explain why marines being ponymen from Jupiter is wrong, you aren't fit to criticize anything. Hell, I'm not sure you'd be fit to dress yourself.
* * *Grey Hunter Ydalir
(Please note, I'm not trying to gain Octy's favour either. He's still one of my biggest detractors and I'd like to keep it that way. Having a good critic keeps you honest.)
Have you considered making an outline?
* * *Dremen
I tend to stick to the "cannon" if such a thing truely exists. However, thanks to my sister I have made a significant divergance from the cannon. Nothing need be said about the love between siblings, and she recently picked up the hobby to spend time with me since we see each other so little. She asked me to make a Chapter for her around the EXACT topic this debate was sparked from. Female Marines. Its been months in the making with more than one re-write. Is it part of the "official" story, no. Is it a story that helps with the enjoyment of the hobby, Yes, most definetly yes. I had'nt shared it here until I have a more working copy of the IA. (Don't worry I expect and can handle the backlash) Now why would I share it knowing full well what is to come? Simple. To get a better grasp of the story I'm writing to make sure that, despite the fact it does'nt fit the official story, it is at least plausible in the 40k framework.
Nothing is incompatible with the official story if you explain it properly. Note that some things are practically impossible to explain properly, but that's a hazard one must live with.
Though, oddly, women making female marines bothers me not at all. I wonder why.