237 replies to this topic

[Raphiel]

So, the new Stormtalon Gunship.
The general consensus appears to be that the new flyer is too ugly to look at. But, aside from the looks, how do you think the Storm Talon serves best in a C:SM army? What is its purpose in 6th?


Some stats:

- Fast Attack slot on the FOC;
- Fast Skimmer;
- AV 11 all around;
- BS 4;
- Ceramite Plating.

Weapon options:
Standard load-out: Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter
The Twin-linked Heavy Bolter can be replaced by:
- Twin-linked lascannon;
- Typhoon Missile Launcher;
- Sky Hammer Missile Launcher (60" range, S7, AP4, Heavy 3).

Special rules:
- Escort Craft:
Can be attached to a unit entering from reserves, and will appear within 6" of the unit. It cannot escort a unit arriving by Deepstrike. One Stormtalon per unit. Cannot escort another Stormtalon.
- Hover Strike:
Can convert to a skimmer but may not move (it can pivot on the spot) in order to receive a +1 to BS against artillery, beasts, bikes, cavalry, infantry, MCs and vehicles that are not skimmers. Also all shots have the Pinning special rule.
- Aerial Assault
Can move 12" and fire all weapons
- Supersonic:
May move flat out up to 36"


I think the Typhoon Missile Launcher will be the best option, especially given the Aerial Assault special rule. Combined with the TL Assault Cannons, this could lead up to some nice rear/side armour shots, and also not withstanding it's potential against infantry.

The Sky Hammer Missile Launcher feels like a similar weapon system, with stats that are the average of both fire modes of the Typhoon. The extra range and the extra shot make it a viable method of heavy support. But do you really want the long range? Sure, it is only an AV 11 vehicle. So you'll want to keep it out of range and in cover. But let's not forget the 24" range of the assault cannons. You'll have to get up close and personal to put these to good use. And with the pinning special rule when in hover mode, this can prove to be a true infantry killer.

I am not that enthusiastic about the lascannon option. It is the most expensive of the three, and it's not really adding anything spectacular to the gunship. In my opinion, lascannons do not mix well with assault cannons. Their target groups are too different to be put to good use.

I am thinking of running a Stormtalon Gunship with Typhoon Missile Launcher along with a squadron of two Landspeeder Typhoons with Heavy Bolters. This will be a fast fire support unit, capable of damaging both light armour and infantry. The weapon systems work well in synergy with each other, and the speed of both units will add to their versatility.

What do you guys think? Are you going to use a Stormtalon, and if so, in what manner?

Edited by Raphiel, 25 May 2012 - 06:03 PM.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

I plan on putting them with a couple of drop pods. So first turn I have two drop pods and whatever is in it and two Stormtalons. I think that would really put the hurt on the other army and that isn't including the rest of your army too.

I am going to go with the Skyhammer because what my army lacks is light armour tank busting. Rhinos and Chimeras seem to be my bane so I am going to teach them a lessen first turn.

[ShinyRhino]

You really need to post the complete and ACCURATE rules for it.

It cannot arrive with a unit arriving via Deepstrike.
It must arrive from a point that is within 6" of the point the escorted unit entered from.

Those are big differences. Pods are irrelevant to the discussion now.


As for what I plan to do with it...escort outflanking bikes or Assault Marines (Kor'sarro Khan-led force) while armed with Skyhammer missiles. You can hit anything that is >1" from the opposite table edge (barring LOS issues) on arrival. If you get the correct table edge, it compliments the unit with which it arrived by adding antiinfantry or antitank fire.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Damn no pods.....Well I am just going to have to use Khan with Land Raiders now.

[Raphiel]

You really need to post the complete and ACCURATE rules for it.

It cannot arrive with a unit arriving via Deepstrike.
It must arrive from a point that is within 6" of the point the escorted unit entered from.

Those are big differences. Pods are irrelevant to the discussion now.


As for what I plan to do with it...escort outflanking bikes or Assault Marines (Kor'sarro Khan-led force) while armed with Skyhammer missiles. You can hit anything that is >1" from the opposite table edge (barring LOS issues) on arrival. If you get the correct table edge, it compliments the unit with which it arrived by adding antiinfantry or antitank fire.

I never said that the Stormtalon can arrive via Deepstrike. The rules specifically prohibit the Stormtalon escorting a unit that arrives by Deepstrike.

But yeah, to make things more complete I'll edit the first post.

Edited by Raphiel, 25 May 2012 - 06:02 PM.

[ShinyRhino]

You really need to post the complete and ACCURATE rules for it.

It cannot arrive with a unit arriving via Deepstrike.
It must arrive from a point that is within 6" of the point the escorted unit entered from.

Those are big differences. Pods are irrelevant to the discussion now.


As for what I plan to do with it...escort outflanking bikes or Assault Marines (Kor'sarro Khan-led force) while armed with Skyhammer missiles. You can hit anything that is >1" from the opposite table edge (barring LOS issues) on arrival. If you get the correct table edge, it compliments the unit with which it arrived by adding antiinfantry or antitank fire.

I never said that the Stormtalon can arrive via Deepstrike. The rules specifically prohibit the Stormtalon escorting a unit that arrives by Deepstrike.

i didn't say you did, only that you omitted some key points from the list of rules.

[Ming]

No harm no foul. He corrected the stats above.

Nice to see a speeder-like unit with better stats and not able to be shot down by a bolt pistol...

[KhorneHunter57x]

What do you guys think? Are you going to use a Stormtalon, and if so, in what manner?

I will probably use a couple with Skyhammer missiles - although the range doesn't match the Assault Cannon, the ROF, Strength, and AP do. The range will let it sit back and Hover Strike against targets that are far away, and the weapon profile meshes well with the AC when at close range.

As for tactics, I will probably use them as early-game long-range fire support, before moving up and using them alongside the rest of my army to finish off weakened units. Aerial Assault can extend the threat range of the Assault Cannon by 50%, and 7 decently powerful shots give it utility against a number of targets. As most of the long-range weapons in my army are Lascannons, and as I don't have Dakka Preds, Rifleman Dreadnoughts, or non-Storm Land Speeders, I think that it will fill the niche that other people use these units for - anti-infantry/light armor.

Edited by KhorneHunter57x, 25 May 2012 - 10:22 PM.

[Lord Falkor]

i do normally take a land speeder typhoon/tornado to get at side armour by turn 2 their normally down n out as bolter/shoota's take them out, so with av11 that will not happen

tbh if im against horde armies ill go with HB & AC options as most shooting will need a 6 just to glance and as for close combat their gonna have to hit on a 6 as u can move 12 and fire all weapons

marine armies ill take typhoon missile launcher & AC as most SM players tend to shoot my land raider with ML's & LC's and atm csm's dont have access to plasma cannons apart from on the dread

imperial guard i prob wont take as autocannons will prob take it down easy

[chucklehead]

Folks

I don't claim to be a master tactician, so I'm happy to be educated, but isn't the Lascannon upgrade the really obvious choice?

First off, it's cheaper. Not much, but it all helps. Secondly, for the points you are paying for a fairly fragile vehicle, do we not want this rocking up and wrecking something big and nasty?! Marines have tons of stuff to take out transports and medium armour. And when I drop this on the table, I want it to take out more than a bloody Rhino! Of the available options, the Lascannon just seems to me like it gives me the best chance to win my points back.

In terms of deployment, I'm really liking the idea of this turning up from reserve with some outflanking scouts. I see know issue with this in terms of the rules?

Like I said, happy for you good folk to show me I'm wrong

[minigun762]

Giving it a once over, I'm tempted to say the best thing to do is keep it in its stock configuration. You get 7 TL'd AP4 shots that can be boosted to pinning and BS5, thats a lot of firepower to dump into a squad, the side/rear of a transport or walker or a nasty MC and the pinning is just a bonus.

I think giving it long range weapons like the lascannons or missiles doesn't allow you to make full use of your assault cannons.

[DarkGuard]

Now the really interesting rule I can see is the Hover Strike rule, a very definite clue IMO that there will be flyers in 6th Ed and that this is destined to be one of them.

Looking at the other rules, I personally can't see any fault in any weapons configurations, as it'll depend on what you need. As minigun762 has said with its stock armament it can be a good anti-infantry unit with some decent anti-tank. But then maybe you want anti-tank, in which case any of the other three would be helpful, the TML offering more versatility, the skyhammer basically being an autocannon+1 and the lascannon for more high powered shots. While the skyhammer seems cool, I reckon I'd stick with either the heavy bolters for a primary anti-infantry role, or the TML for the versatility. I have 4 S6 shots already, I'll happily trade 1 S7 shot for S8 on the other two shots and some frag templates for anti-infantry.

[Lord Falkor]

Folks

I don't claim to be a master tactician, so I'm happy to be educated, but isn't the Lascannon upgrade the really obvious choice?

First off, it's cheaper. Not much, but it all helps. Secondly, for the points you are paying for a fairly fragile vehicle, do we not want this rocking up and wrecking something big and nasty?! Marines have tons of stuff to take out transports and medium armour. And when I drop this on the table, I want it to take out more than a bloody Rhino! Of the available options, the Lascannon just seems to me like it gives me the best chance to win my points back.

In terms of deployment, I'm really liking the idea of this turning up from reserve with some outflanking scouts. I see know issue with this in terms of the rules?

Like I said, happy for you good folk to show me I'm wrong

but if your gonna use it with scouts outflanking which i like its gonna prob turn up in turn 3-4 so its gonna be infantry to deal with and unless your playing against SM or NECRON players that use land raider's or moniliths your gonna have av13 for side armour max to deal with at best only 12 max if u get rear armour

so for extra 5 pts u get strength 8 to deal with armour or strength 4 to deal with infantry before your scouts go into them to claim the obj now if u got a lascannon then you can deal with the tank and then just 1 infantry guy with same weapon

im not trying to make arguement for TML & AC over LC & AC but it depends on what your gonna come up against more if your playing at a tournament

[DarkGuard]

The other thing to remember is that anti-vehicle in current 40k is about rate of fire, the more shots you roll the more rolls on the vehicle damage table you'll have. Unless your shots are AP1, which they aren't with the Storm Talon. Because of this the lascannon isn't the best weapon for heavy armour and does better against Rhinos and the like.

As said, I'd prefer to spend the extra 5pts for one of the missile variants, I'm just not sure which one is better, the higher strength but less shot TML, which gives me anti-infantry options, or the higher RoF but lesser strength skyhammer which doesn't give me that same anti-infantry option.

[Deus Ex Ferrum]

I'm tempted to say that the Skyhammer is probably the best bet:

1.) Strength value meshes well with the assault cannon, still wounds Marines of 2+ and most MCs on a 3+.
2.) AP value meshes well with the assault cannon, punches armor for IG and all xenos.
3.) You get the most bang for your buck with its three shots if you pull the +1 BS option.
4.) Provides alternate APC-killing firepower against most side armor; like DarkGuard said earlier, tank-busting is as much a rate of fire issue at the moment than a Strength issue.

[Axagoras]

I think giving it long range weapons like the lascannons or missiles doesn't allow you to make full use of your assault cannons.

I run my contemptor with cyclone and kheres assault cannons because both are dual purpose and I would do the same here, also I dont like the skyhammer missiles, its just a longer range 3 shot auto cannon, if I want that I'll take rifle dreads.

[Deus Ex Ferrum]

I think giving it long range weapons like the lascannons or missiles doesn't allow you to make full use of your assault cannons.

I run my contemptor with cyclone and kheres assault cannons because both are dual purpose and I would do the same here, also I dont like the skyhammer missiles, its just a longer range 3 shot auto cannon, if I want that I'll take rifle dreads.

With longer range, an extra shot, an option for BS 5, and the ability to get flank shots on a target -- something a Rifleman will struggle to get on its own. Imagine firing at the nice AV 10 on the side of the Chimaera instead of the big AV 12 up front.

[DarkGuard]

I'm tempted to say that the Skyhammer is probably the best bet:

1.) Strength value meshes well with the assault cannon, still wounds Marines of 2+ and most MCs on a 3+.
2.) AP value meshes well with the assault cannon, punches armor for IG and all xenos.
3.) You get the most bang for your buck with its three shots if you pull the +1 BS option.
4.) Provides alternate APC-killing firepower against most side armor; like DarkGuard said earlier, tank-busting is as much a rate of fire issue at the moment than a Strength issue.

But on the other hand the TML still has some good points:
1.) Strength value also meshes well with the assault cannon, wounds Marines on a 2+ and most MCs on a 2+, robbing most of them of their armour save.
2.) AP value also meshes well with the assault cannon, punches armor for IG and all xenos, but also offers some armour punching shots for MEQ and MCs as well. Of course, against every save apart from a 3+ or 6+ the skyhammer does better, but most saves at the moment are 3+.
3.) More flexibility, the frag missiles give more flexibility against infantry than the skyhammer. While you're less likely to wound with the frag missiles you should score more hits.
4.) Added punch. RoF is a big part of taking out transports, but having added punch also helps. I'd be tempted to say a S6 weapon will be helped by a couple more points of strength, even if it did have one less shot. Of course, that's a slippery slope all the way to the lascannon. Also meshes with rending against AV12 vehicles better than the skyhammer.

I'd say they're about equal against transports, certainly AV10-11, AV12 onwards the TML starts to win out, so I'd be tempted to include it as against AV12 it meshes well with the assault cannon's rending against AV12. But then RoF against AV10-11 means the skyhammer wins out.

Against infantry it's more poised. Against hordes, MCs and MEQ the TML does better, against other armies, including TEQ the skyhammer does better. I'd also say the skyhammer does better against most MSU armies as they tend to be in light tanks with small squads, the extra shots help against those vehicles and the small squad sizes means the RoF is more than adequate.

The range of the skyhammer is also much greater which is handy in the opening couple of turn.

So I'm definitely stuck, I think I'm leaning towards the skyhammer a little, but the TML also looks good with it. I wouldn't go for either the heavy bolters or lascannons though for lack of versatility, if I did though I'd go for the cheaper heavy bolters.

[Axagoras]

DarkGuard you just summed up what I was thinking, but i would lean toward the TML due to more AV12+ (at least at my FLGS) and with necrons in AV13 you need S8+ and AP 3 robs almost all bugs of their saves.

[templargdt]

Having thought it over, the stock (TLHB, TLAC) version isn't bad. TLAC will still do a number on vehicles, and with the mobility of the platform you can still glance AV-11 sides of vehicles with the TLHB. The Skyhammer and TML I can't decide. You're paying a lot of points for the vehicle at that point, and I'm not sure about the benefit. If you stay at very long range with it to employ the missiles, you're not using the assault cannons. If that's the plan, buy a landspeeder typhoon instead.

I'll pass on the TLLC. I'd rather buy a DN and a TLLC with it (not that I ever would.)

[DarkGuard]

Also the TML robs FnP from many Marine lists etc, while also instant killing T4 models, such as Tyranid Warriors.

The heavy bolter one is interesting though, I just don't think it would do rate of fire well. If it were two heavy bolters I'd be sold. One thing to consider is that the new flyer rules in 6th Ed will likely make it more durable against a lot of weapons.

[Guardian of the Rage]

Hi all,

I feel that it's role within the any given force will also be quite an interesting subject. GW do sometimes hint at such things with the comments in their 'fluff' sections for certain units.

Specifically, i am citing the comment regarding the switch of the Storm Talon from the more supportive role implied before to the primary threat role in fast assault scenarios traditionally expected from the White Scars and Raven Guard. My personal take on this observation above is that the Storm Talon has the potential to fulfil a different scale of role depending upon the points limit in use.

Consider the larger points limits (2k for example) where saturation of perceived threats such as Vindicators and Landraiders could result in the Storm Talon being harassed to a lesser degree than a units with their destructive potential would normally be subjected to. Such a development would make it more likely that they will be able to make use of that destructive potential.

However, I can see that the Storm Talon would have the potential to operate as the main threat at smaller points limits (1k for example) particularly if one is to make use of the standard mantra where 2 is more than twice as good as one. This would be a marked difference from the Typhoon, which operates in the support role very well; though its lower armour value and 'lesser quality' conventional weapon choice (assuming the Heavy Bolter) do not give it the same punch in the primary role.

In addition, regardless of the weapon choices selected and aside from the more specialist rules (hover and escort), the 3 things that set it apart from the landspeeder are the AV11, the aerial assault rule and fixed TL assault cannon. Each of these rules helps to facilitate the closer support role. AV11 mitigating threat what might be considered the standard infantry weapon and Aerial assault allowing it move at speeds which would require a 6 to hit in CC but still fire all weapons.

However, I feel that the fixed TL Assault cannon is the most defining of the features above as this forces the storm talon to operate at a midfield range in order to get maximum effect from its weapons; where as the typhoon conventionally operates at what can be considered long range. Over time, I think that it is the fixed TL assault cannon that will ultimately shape the way that this vehicle is used and will define it in role separate to that conventionally occupied by the Typhoon.

Cheers,

GotR

[minigun762]

The heavy bolter one is interesting though, I just don't think it would do rate of fire well. If it were two heavy bolters I'd be sold. One thing to consider is that the new flyer rules in 6th Ed will likely make it more durable against a lot of weapons.

Don't forget that neither of the missile systems are TL'd. Now BS5 will help make sure you land those shots but BS5 TL'd is just that much better.

The biggest reason I'm against the other weapons systems is I wouldn't want to invest another 15-20% of a vehicle's worth onto a glorified flying rhino chassis, even with potential defensive upgrades. The missile systems are better than the heavy bolter but not worth the added cost in my mind.

[DarkGuard]

Well with 6th Ed it may be a more durable Rhino chassis.

Also, while I agree with not wanting to spend too many points, my one concern with heavy bolters is that utility it restricted beyond anti-infantry, which you get throughout the list for cheaper anyway. So your expensive unit isn't really adding that much to the list that you already have.

[templargdt]

I've been thinking about how to actually use the thing. I think starting off on the board seems like a bad idea considering you're using an AV 11 platform on a base so high anyone can see it from anywhere on the board. So, plan on either come in from reserve, deep striking or escorting someone coming in from reserve.

I'm warming to the idea of escorting someone outflanking; you don't have to spend a turn zooming up the board to get into a firing position; you just come on and start shooting. This sets up some nice side armor shots. Deep Striking might be ok, but I hate deep striking something that big. You are asking to scatter into terrain and immobilizing yourself.

So the question is what do you escort that is outflanking. Choices:

- Anything with combat Tactics via Khan
- A single tactical squad via Sicarius
- A single unit of something via Shrike (I think)
- Scouts
- Scout Bikes
- Land Speeder Storm

I think looking at the list Khan is a good choice. You can build a list with tons of choices what you want to escort. Scouts, meh. If you outflank on the wrong side of the board, hopefully you placed an objective there for them to sit on, because that's all they can do the rest of the game. The problem with the Scout Bikes and Land Speeder Storm is that they are holding on to the same FOC as the Talon. Maybe you could take a full squad of scout bikes, 2 Talons, combat squad and escort both.

Thoughts?