scout armies in 6th

[greatcrusade08]

pg 9 under exceptions, explains that there are circumstances that arent spelled out, you dont know which rules to apply first etc.. it says whoevers turn it is chooses the order.

 

ninjad whilst on the phone..

yeah its brilliant, telions is a beast.

 

did you check out the list?

[Captain Idaho]

Already replied matey!

[Kingkaneda]

Actually I am wrong! Just re-read Seahawk's explanation and page 9 is a great thing for us! Whose turn it is decides the order of things; so we choose Snap Fire then Signum/VoE.

 

That's handy!

 

Heh, I always put telion in my list. But I would never use this rotten cheese tactic. Snapshot is bs 1.

[Stercus]

Kingkaneda, this is absolutely NOT a cheese tactic. It's the whole point of telion's rule and the reason he costs 50points.

[greatcrusade08]

Kingkaneda, this is absolutely NOT a cheese tactic. It's the whole point of telion's rule and the reason he costs 50points.

 

73 actually, taking into account he replaces a 23 point model.. think of it in these terms a chapter champion with relic blade comes in a 60 points.

where telion is concerned this tactic isnt cheese, its the very reason hes included

[Kingkaneda]

The reason I take him is the stealth he gives the squad combined with his high BS and the fact that all his shots are precision shots and he has 2 shots in stead of 1. Oh yeah and VOE is great to use on the ML when you have no other targets than transports.

All this is reason enough for me to pay 50 points to upgrade the sergeant into Telion. It doesnt specifically say anything about skyfire or flyers, AND it isn't faq'd.

 

For me it would go like this: Hey telion tell me how to shoot this damn ML, i skipped training that day. Oh sorry bud, when I got my training we didn't do skyfire so I'm just as crap a you.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, it's funny Telion can't shoot fliers with his normal shooting but can tell a Scout to fire at one as if he could. It's a loop hole that'll likely be removed in the rulebook FAQ.

[greatcrusade08]

Yeah, it's funny Telion can't shoot fliers with his normal shooting but can tell a Scout to fire at one as if he could. It's a loop hole that'll likely be removed in the rulebook FAQ.

 

hmm dunno, he cant shoot a ML normally but can tell another chap to.. it dpends on how far you want to dissect it.. IMO its how it should be, i dont think it will be FAQd out

[VoteForPedro]

I think it'll probably stay too, it's not exactly game breaking, you're paying almost 150 to fairly reliably hit a flyer a turn

[Stercus]

If the devastator sergeant's signum works the same way, it's probably more points-effective to take a five man, four missile launcher squad of devs instead. Even though only one krak missile gets off at the improved BS, but at least the other three have a one-in-six chance as backup.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, it's funny Telion can't shoot fliers with his normal shooting but can tell a Scout to fire at one as if he could. It's a loop hole that'll likely be removed in the rulebook FAQ.

 

hmm dunno, he cant shoot a ML normally but can tell another chap to.. it dpends on how far you want to dissect it.. IMO its how it should be, i dont think it will be FAQd out

 

Bet you 20p it does! It doesn't make much sense to be able to guide people to target fliers better than he can himself.

[greatcrusade08]

ill take that bet good sir :)

[ninjaturtlethug]

Kingkaneda, this is absolutely NOT a cheese tactic. It's the whole point of telion's rule and the reason he costs 50points.

 

73 actually, taking into account he replaces a 23 point model.. think of it in these terms a chapter champion with relic blade comes in a 60 points.

where telion is concerned this tactic isnt cheese, its the very reason hes included

 

@stercus; So your thery is this then, when C;SM was being written, immediately after 5th was released, they gave sgt telion VoE so that he could shoot down flyers in 6th, and thats why he costs more than the standard sgt. Why didnt they just give him skyfire and avoid this entire issue?

 

@GC08 if the entire reason you use telion is to take down flyers, thats exactly what makes it cheese. To me its clear that this is not how Telion was intended to work in 6th. and If using this tactic, you should at least warn your opponent ahead of time.

[greatcrusade08]

To me its clear that this is not how Telion was intended to work in 6th. and If using this tactic, you should at least warn your opponent ahead of time.

 

problem is RAW is RAW, so people feelings on GWs intentions only gets you so far.. if people were strongly against it id not do it.. its the kind of gamer i am.

thankfully its accepted at my games club, so ill use it without complaint

[The Yak]

My take on it would be that when Telion is shooting his stalker pattern bolter, he will be concentrating on taking out immediate threats he has perceived with his infinite wisdom and experience. With his voice of experience rule, I envisage him taking his time to talk to the little scout and pass on his knowledge of taking down aerial targets. Something along the lines of... "Steady, calm your breathing account for deflection... oh listen just pull the trigger when I say!" Telion would probably not bother wasting his bolter shots on an aerial target but I can see him understanding the worth of a missile launcher at his disposal. Isnt there something in codex space marines (ultramarines time line) about Telion and a squad of scouts suppressing a rebellion by themselves? I believe that GW are trying to make the rules of 6th co-inside with the fluff. So why not have them being heroes? Telion could always shoot the aegis quad gun himself and claim all the glory but that one shot from the little scout may get him promoted into a devastator squad and contribute to the progression of the chapter.

[Stormshadow]

Here’s a thought. How about a scout sergeant with dual plasma pistols for some real drive bye, gangster stile? ^_^

[Br.Pat]

Main rulebook:

 

"Shots against flyers can -ONLY- be counted as snap shots"

 

"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

 

Why is this so hard for people to understand?

[greatcrusade08]

Main rulebook:

 

"Shots against flyers can -ONLY- be counted as snap shots"

 

"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

 

Why is this so hard for people to understand?

 

honestly dude thats grest and all but the rulebook also says how to apply multiple set values (in this case BS values)

snap shot says counts as BS1, VoE says use BS6.

the rulebook says when this occurs the players whos turn it is chooses which order to apply the values.

 

why is that so hard to understand?

 

sorry that last bit was a little rude, but you are giving off a lil 'tude yourself

 

Here’s a thought. How about a scout sergeant with dual plasma pistols for some real drive bye, gangster stile

would be great for a LSS, trouble is the cost and the chances of a death by overheating

[Stercus]

I feel, mr ninjaturtlethug, that you are misinterpreting my comment. While I suspect pedantry and mischief, in the spirit of sportsmanship i shall expand in the interest of clarity:

My point basically, was that special characters come at a premium point cost precisely because they are able to accomplish special things within the game mechanics. The overriding theme of the 6th Ed rule book is that the basic game rules are overruled in special circumstances, hence the large number of unique special rules. It would seem to follow that special characters, by their very nature are intended to bend the normal restrictions.

Obviously I neither state nor imply that the writers of the c:sm book in 5th knew the upcoming ruleset for 6th. This would simply be absurd. However given the general quality of the new book, it would be unlikely if the writers had not considered what impact existing (5th Ed) special rules would have on the new mechanics and adjust them accordingly. There would be little point giving Telion the sky fire rule, as his bolter stands no real chance of damaging a flyer. Therefore, his V of E rule remains, enabling him to guide a squad member to do the job instead.

Hopefully I have expressed myself more lucidly in this instance.

[Br.Pat]

Main rulebook:

 

"Shots against flyers can -ONLY- be counted as snap shots"

 

"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

 

Why is this so hard for people to understand?

 

honestly dude thats grest and all but the rulebook also says how to apply multiple set values (in this case BS values)

snap shot says counts as BS1, VoE says use BS6.

the rulebook says when this occurs the players whos turn it is chooses which order to apply the values.

 

why is that so hard to understand?

 

sorry that last bit was a little rude, but you are giving off a lil 'tude yourself

 

Here’s a thought. How about a scout sergeant with dual plasma pistols for some real drive bye, gangster stile

would be great for a LSS, trouble is the cost and the chances of a death by overheating

 

 

Why should different BS matter? It clearly says that they can -ONLY- be counted as snap shots.

[greatcrusade08]

Why should different BS matter? It clearly says that they can -ONLY- be counted as snap shots.

 

thanks for continuing to drag this thread off topic with rules debates.

 

in essence you apply snap fire first, so my model is now BS1, then Telion applies his VoE making the snap fire shot BS6, every other model in the unit is still BS1. even the model himself is still under the basic rules for snap shot, only that hes been given a buff to his BS by another source.

 

again its clearly written in the rulebook that the owning player chooses which order to apply the set values. Snap fire is applied, but so is VoE

 

so wheres the fire?

[Br.Pat]

What page does it state the sequence of the modifiers? I can find all other references but that.

[Stercus]

Page 9 paragraph 6 for general procedure of exceptions, page 32 paragraph 2 for basic principle that special rules trump main game rules.

 

Can we get back to gc08's original subject now? I'm interested what scout tactics he has for 6th Ed.

[greatcrusade08]

i will hand on heart update the OP eventually, for now a quick run down.

 

snipers are the best unit scouts have access to.

scout bikes and bolter scouts work in pretty much the same way now, they got a boost with rapid fire rules, the bikes are twin linked too which helps a whole heap when snap firing.

T5 keeps them alive in combat longer too, and they have hammer of wrath

4+ save is really not that durable though, and heavy bolters, assault cannons etc tend to chew through them.

 

i like the rules with cloaks now, so they are worthwhile even on bolter scouts.

 

im liking bolter scouts alot more than in 5th, in 5th i figured they were almost useless (i said almost, i used a squad religiously for taking point) they can move and fire at top end range now, snap shot with heavy weapons (not the hellfire on the HB though) and snap shot when being charged.

i still think the lack of special weapons is a hinderance, but at 140 points for 10 base cost they are very cheap..

 

with snap fire rules working against our lightly armoured assault scouts now i feel a greater baalnce of shotguns to ccws would be needed, we need to force saves before the charge to lessen any impact of snap shots at our delicate carapace armour.

 

ive got my first army list worked out so hopefully i can get some game experience soon and report back my findings.

 

at the moment i feel an army containing 6 large scout squads is viable, maybe half snipers half bolters for about 800-900 points with upgrades, depending on your points limits you can add some nice anti tank ability in your FA and HS slots.

the scout horde is on my list of things to try, ive almost got enough scouts for that

[Br.Pat]

I am going to finish as saying this: Page 9 para 6 is there for freak occurrences and not something that occurs every turn (or more than once a turn if you use Signum too). I think that the authors overlooked this fact.

 

Furthermore I believe Snap Fire is not a modifier, but a core rule that should only be circumvented specifically... as with the Foreboding Psychic Power (Divination).

 

In addition, I don't think any TO would allow your interpretation of the rule. Otherwise you'd see 6 squads of MM Devvies snap firing every turn. A Snap Fire is supposed to be a quick shot anyway that takes half a second. No amount of data from the signum or experience from Telion in your ear can make a difference in the space of half a second.

 

Br.Pat out.