25 replies to this topic

[El_Jairo]

First of all I wanted to build a list around Techmarines but I found out it not really balanced because with 3x bolstered defences isn't really efficient.

I'm still trying this one out so I'm looking for C&C.

HQ:

Termie Libby with SS and Epist, Gate & Null Zone
=190p

MotF, Power Axe, Digital Weapons
=125p

Elites
7 Sternguard, 2x Combi-Melta, 3x Combi-Plasme, Sarge w/ PF and C-M
=230p

Troops
6 Sniper Scouts with Camo cloaks +ML +Telion
=179p

10 Tactical Marines +PG +LC, +SB on Sarge
=200p

10 Tactical Marines +MG +ML, BP&CS + MB on Sarge
Rhino
=215p

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Typhoon
=90p

Heavy Support
Dreadnought, +ML +TL-LC
=145p

ThunderFire Cannon
=100p

Land Raider, +EA +MM
275p

Sternguard go into the Land Raider with Epistolary and MotF, I'll choose Biomancy if I don't need the fixed powers.

I'm not sure about the type of PW on the MotF, I was thinking to pick a Power Maul to be more versatile. In doing so I shouldn't need Digital Weapons either.

The extra armour on the Land Raider might not be worth it any more with the new rules for glancing but I wanted to make sure the Land Raider can move when it needs to.

I hope the Sternguard have enough CC power with the Libby and MotF, if they need to assault anything.

Thank you for sharing your impressions, comments and experience.

[rpnightsend]

Doesn't look bad at all. A few minor suggestions from me:
You didn't specify but did you give the librarian a force axe? That's what I take on mine.
Drop the digital weapons on the MoTF and give him a Power Maul like you said. The servo arms will do your AP2 Work for him, and he probably shouldn't be in combat anyways.
The extra armor on the raider can definitely go. There won't be a lot of pens on that guy, and when they happen they will almost assuredly not be stunning it.
I'd say drop the 3 combi-plasma on the sternguard, give one a heavy flamer. Also, if the librarian has a force axe and is going with this squad, he can accept challenges from things with a 2+ save, so you can probably give the sergeant a power sword/bolt pistol and give his combi-melta to someone else.
With those freed up points I'd consider a rhino for the second tactical squad or dropping the typhoon for another dreadnought. Either option gives you some nice armor saturation.
Hope it was helpful mate

[El_Jairo]

Okay, taking into account some feedback and trying to trim off inefficient edges, I came up with this:

HQ:

Termie Libby with SS, Force Axe and Epist, Gate & Null Zone
=190p

MotF, Power Maul
=115p

Elites
7 Sternguard, 2x Combi-Melta, 3x Combi-Plasme, Sarge w/ PF and C-M
=230p

Troops
5 Sniper Scouts with Camo cloaks +ML +Telion
=147p

10 Tactical Marines +PG +LC, +SB on Sarge
=200p

10 Tactical Marines +MG +ML, BP&PS + MB on Sarge
Rhino
=230p

Fast Attack
Land Speeder squadron
+1 Typhoon
=140p

Heavy Support
Dreadnought, +ML +TL-LC
=145p

ThunderFire Cannon
=100p

Land Raider
=250p

Total 1747p

I decide for the PF to stay in the Sternguard, because it is well protected from challenges and it is ID vs T4 and it is almost as efficient vs TEQ as the Libby with power axe.
Sure I could shave of some points to give the Sarge PS and BP but than I would lose special issue ammo and I want this squad really to be as versatile as possible.
All in all I will be aiming for Endurance power if I don't need to deny invulnerable saves. Which means I could fire Vengeance rounds on double tag before I charge, which should kill about 4,67 MEQ. I only need to make sure to µ-assault than to make sure I stay locked in combat.

I removed Sniper scouts, as there are body bags for the ML and Telion. With a 2+ cover save in a ruin, 3+ in other terrain, I don't expect them to die soon.
I removed the upgrades of the Land Raider, as the range for the MM doesn't really fit. Typically I want to stay out of melta range or it is delivering the Sternguard squad with melta's.

With the points I have removed I have got me a power sword on the rhino Sarge. This squad will be me consolidation squad.
And I squeezed in an extra Land Speeder, to give this unit some more survivability. That way it won't be an easy first blood score for my opponent.

I hope to get some games in with this list, so I can report back on how it fared.

[Deus Ex Ferrum]

If you can find the points, I'd actually recommend a power sword and digi weapons on the MOTF. The digi weapons will help to counteract the loss of strength dropping the maul, and the AP3 will let you carve through PA, which the maul doesn't. You also have no dedicated AA; no 'Talon or ADL with quad-gun, for example. One brush with a flyer, and you'll realize how much of a pain they are to kill without some.

[DarkGuard]

I like the list, a couple of points though.

Listen to DEF, that's a good point.

Also, with the Sternguard, why have you two upgrades on the Sergeant and one model without any? You risk losing two upgrades in one hit then, even with LO,S. I'd put the combi-melta on a separate model.

Also, the storm bolter is definitely not worth its points on Tactical Sergeants anymore, especially with the changes to rapid fire weapons. You've paid those points for an extra bolt shot at 12"+ range, and the ability to charge after firing with a unit with no assault weapons. Not a good use of points. A combi, or freeing some points for a combat weapon, or using them elsewhere would be a better use of points.

Also, I'd prefer a Rifleman instread of the Dread, and it would save some points, which combined with the storm bolter saving points etc, could eventually net you another Typhoon.

[El_Jairo]

Cheers for the feedback. I haven't inserted any AA in there is because I don't own the models yet. Also in our LGS people don't play flyers that often, yet.
I was personally thinking about buying a Talon, I can switch him for the Land Speeders.

You're right DG, I was thinking about getting more precision shots but with a bolter this isn't really worth it.

I don't know about the Riflemen yet, but he can be useful vs flyers too.

I'm going to play a 2000p game tomorrow and see what units perform to my expectation. I'll come back for some feed back.

[El_Jairo]

I played a 2000p 2vs2 game and tested the storm talon, I can see some nice opportunities for rear armour on flyers.
The rifleman dread proved as good as TL-LC&ML. I forgot I switched the dread and both rolled one glancing on a landing platform Doom Arch.

This is the following list I have prepared for a friendly without flyers.
It's vs his CSM but he also plays all bikes SM.

I hoped the MotF isn't too tailored.

HQ:
Termie Epist with SS, Force Axe and Bio magic
=190p

MotF, Power Sword, Digi Weapons
=125p

Elites
9 Sternguard, 3x Combi-Melta, 3x Combi-Plasme, Sarge w/ PF
=280p

Troops
8 Sniper Scouts with Camo cloaks +ML +Telion
=195p

10 Tactical Marines +PG +LC
=190p

10 Tactical Marines +MG +ML, BP&PS + MB on Sarge
Rhino +DB
=235p

Fast Attack
2 Land Speeder squadron
+1 Typhoon
=140p

Heavy Support
Dreadnought, 2x TL-AC
=125p

ThunderFire Cannon
=100p

Land Raider +MM +HK
=270p

Total 1850p

As you can see I have used the points to boost my boots on the ground with Sternguard and Snipers.
I boosted my vehicles a little with more weaponry or DB.
For AA I was thinking to replace some extra's for a ADL with Icarus for Telion to sit on

Edited by El_Jairo, 20 August 2012 - 01:25 AM.

[DarkGuard]

That looks good, although to be honest I'd still look at taking another Typhoon by dropping some of the extra points rather than only having one, they're not good.

Otherwise, looks solid.

[Squirrel]

personally i think the motf, is points mispent (if not needed for the FOC change, i wouldnt take him as a 2nd hq).

Id beef your sternguard out to 10models, and i would combat squad them, and put both squads in the LRC.

That way you can have a 5 man squad, shoot assault weapons, and charge in with libby, while another squad can shoot their rapid fire.

i think both speeders should be typhoon, and in their own FOC slot.

bringing another dread would be great to

[El_Jairo]

Thanks for the feedback.

I can totally agree with both points. I'm convinced about needing 2 Typhoons and maybe putting them in separate squads. I'm just afraid a single Land Speeder might die too easily and grant first blood to my opponent. But than again, I should be able to hide them or keep them in reserve.

If I take away the MotF, it can pay for another Rifleman Dread.
And I was thinking of combat squading my Sternguard but to create a double MG squd that could drive around in a Rhino.
The sergeant with PF would stick around with Epistolary and MotF. In this configuration I think I can use a MotF for extra CC power and 2+ saves.
I think I can trim of the points of the Scouts, since they didn't do much for me apart from being scoring and refusing to die.

Some more of my experience with playing this type of list:

Until now I have always rolled the Endurance power, which grants also Relentless, which makes them able to rapid fire before the charge. Which is great but I haven't been able to put this in a lot of practice.
Anyhows, my tactics aren't up to speed, since I can't wait with the Sternguard to stick inside their land raider until they can commit to CC. They always got creamed by Veiltec-Deathmark combo or Plasma Cannons.

When I combat squad my tactical squads I find them useless in CC. I think that is the weakest point of this list: no real CC power in units, only in my IC's.
This is the reason why I think I should more play this list as a castle shooting list. Using my Land Raider to block LoS to minimize the return fire.
In my latest game I did experience that the Land Raider can be quite a challenge to get down (or not at all for Necrons). That was one of the reasons to put a MotF in it to be able to repair on 4+, making it even harder to kill.

Tonight I'm going to play a 1500 battle, without the MG, ML Tactical squad (rhino moves to other squad) Land Speeders and trimmed down Snipers.
It's vs my Eldar mate and I'm going to explain 6th to him. Hopefully my tactics are more on target this time.

I'll keep you posted.

[DarkGuard]

Well, Marines are a generalist shooty army. They aren't a combat army. They have combat units, but they aren't a combat army. The units you've taken aren't combat units, so don't expect them to do well in combat.

Now, IMO, I think there are three key elements of 40K. Mobility, Shooting, Assault. And to make a good, competitive list, you have to be able to do at least two of these things well. Now, in the current edition, you want mobility, so for the easiest way to build an effective list you have to pick one of shooting and assault. Of course, having some ability in the other is good, but don't worry too much about it.

With this list, use your mobility to get into good shooting positions, good fire lanes etc, and then let rip. This is why I personally feel that the Land Raider isn't a great choice here, and that you'll do better with Rhinos and other fire support units.

[El_Jairo]

Thanks for feedback DarkGuard.

I think I catch your drift on the 3 phases. And you are right, I can't expect to build an army than can do all three.

About the Land Raider, you might be right and I have too much points locked up in this basket in the current iteration of my list.
On the other hand I like being able to move a nice LoS blocking tank 6" and get off two TL-LC's at different targets.
If I should get that out of troops, I pay a lot more points and don't get TL. So for now the LR stays, especially as it is a bad ass model with the HB modelled by a giant skull.
Another thing about it that it is a an assault vehicle, so it lets my sternguard seek shelter in CC from enemy fire. It did team up well with endurance on the libby.

So I came up with a variant for the MotF-Epistolary combo. Though I still like it for my fluff army as they are painted LotD and my story is that the MotF and the Libby teamed together to find a way out of the warp. I also am planning to paint the stern guard in Fire Hawk colour scheme. As they are the true veterans, who resisted the warp. My libbies codex spells are null zone and gate

The thing is that I needed the MotF because the Libby only has two wounds and can't play the bullet screen on his own. That is what made me consider Lysander. He has plenty wounds and EW on top to take the ID wounds on a 3++.
He buffs the Sternguard nicely on their forte and he has a punch in CC with ID vs most IC's and also +2 vs vehicle damage rolls. So don't have to shoot the CM's to break a vehicle on he charge as my Sarge lays a Melta Bomb. They should get down anything but a monolith or LR.
MC's aren't a big issue when I can hellfire it wounds off and have it charge me after.
He even brings Bolster Defence so I only have one less HS. Which isn't a bad thing since the dread is likely to die.
Though I might miss endurance, now and then...

So this is the list what I came up for 1750

HQ
Darnath Lysander

Elites
9 Sternguad +3CM +3CP +MB 260
Rifledread 125

Troops
8 Scouts +Camo +ML +Telion 195
10 Tac +PG +LC 220
in Rhino
10 Tac +MG +ML +MB BP&CS 215
in Rhino

Fast Attack
2x 1 Land Speeder Thyphoon 190

Heavy Support
TFC
Land Raider

Total: 1750

For 2000 I was thinking to ad BA allies with Divination Libby for boost on snipers with the signature spell and some minimal assault troops.
I'm considering to use the BA Libby as Lvl 1 with 3++ cover for the TFC. Sure I should get same cover but it is nice to have a back up vs ignore cover shots or if there is no ruin.

What do you think, does this looks more competitive? Yes I know, I should get in some AA but I'm still waiting for my ADL coming in. I want it with ILC for Telion to sit on. I might need to trim heavily when I want it to fit into 1750. I was thinking some combi weapons, some scouts and the first rhino.
In 2000 I'm thinking of dropping the land raider for ML devestators for the BA Epistolary to hang out.
All in all I'm not yet convinced that Divination is better that Biomancy but more efficiency for the snipers sounds nice. The second spell looks, doubtful and makes me wonder if the libby should be joining the sternguard? That doesn't sound right because then I can "only" bring 8 Sternguard. On the other hand combining Ignore Cover with TL Special Issue Ammo Bolters and Misfortune seem like a sweat deal!

Edit: wrong weapon load on Sternguard Sergeant.

Edited by El_Jairo, 25 August 2012 - 01:25 AM.

[iandanger]

If I can advise anything for a MoF list, its conversion beamer and riflemen. You can take as many dreads as you want, 3x riflemen are the most versatile shooting you can get, strong enough to take down all of the flyers, twin linked so, better than nothing, and highly capable of taking out all sorts of transports. You're paying some of those points for the extra dread slots, may as well use one. Plus, a heavy support dread scores in big guns never tire!

[DarkGuard]

Another thing about it that it is a an assault vehicle, so it lets my sternguard seek shelter in CC from enemy fire. It did team up well with endurance on the libby.

I picked out this line because here I believe there's a problem. Sternguard seeking shelter in CC. Sternguard want to avoid CC as much as possible, it's why I don't think the Land Raider works here. Two combi-preds would be better, as you get more lascannon shots and some autocannon shots as well, and if you're clever with points you can grab a Rhino for the Sternguard. This will add more saturation, firepower and flexibility.

However, if you want to keep the Raider, then I'd suggest putting a different unit in it. In that list a unit of Assault Terminators would cost 60pts less then the Sternguard, prefer combat more, and will do more damage in there. Those 60pts could grab you a melta bike then, or a MM Speeder, which can provide a bit of mobility and disruption.

[Squirrel]

still say boost sternguard up to 10, just for the option of combat squading

10+lynsander can still fit in the raider if need be

[El_Jairo]

Ok, some feed back on how the battle went. I finally adapted my list a little to the following:

HQ
Darnath Lysander

Elites
10 Sternguad +3CP +PF 290
Rifledread 125

Troops
6 Scouts +Camo +ML +Telion 163
10 Tac +PG +LC 225
in Rhino
10 Tac +MG +ML +MB BP&CS 215
in Rhino

Fast Attack
2x Land Speeder Thyphoon 180

Heavy Support
TFC
Land Raider

Total: 1748

I played "Purge the Alien!" vs a Tau list, played by our local Tau veteran. He played mostly foot slogging. 3x 12 Fire Warriors, 3 Broadsides Railguns, 2 Hammerhead Railguns, 2x plasma-rocket elite suits and a same command suits squad.

It was dawn of war deployment and I won the roll. Traits, did nothing, as usual .
We basically deployed in the opposite corners with shooting bases. Long story short: I won 9 vs 7 VP, because First blood and Line Breaker.

Some high (and low)-lights: TFC made first blood possible, I'm really curious to see it work with prescience... the TFC also survived until turn 6 in 4+ cover, some good rolls there.

One Rhino refused to die turn 1: he made about 4 cover saves to keep it's last hull point, this was the reason for first blood was ours.

Land Speeder Typhoons did survive longer than I thought, since they only got Shaken before getting killed. I really like the Jink save on them. They proved to be the ideal solution for suits with the combination of AP4 and S8 AP3 shots. I used one on both flank, in hindsight I think they need to support each other, to improve kill rates.

I used the LR to shoot at the Broadsides. It killed both shield drones in first turn but rolled 4 1's in second turn and explodes from their return fire.
Looking in hindsight, I should have use Heavy Bolters or Scouts first on the shield drones. I don't recall if they were in range.
I used the tactic of using my Flat Out move on a Rhino to provide cover for the Land Raider.
I was wondering if you can first fire the PoMS weapon and pop smoke after that?

Maybe I should have gone after the Hammerheads first turn. Even with cover saves, there is a chance of a lucky shot. As with Broad Sides you need to chew through drones.

Low points: Lysander took all 6 wounds from the exploding LR and lost 2. Then large blast begin landing on the sternguard. Maybe I could have avoided some hits by spreading out more but I wanted them to get in effective range. Lysander quickly died the turn after from more blasts landing. I shouldn't allocated that last wound on him in stead of the sergeant. As he was worth 2VP.
On a side note: he made 1 RR for the bolters, LOL.

The Lascannon marine had a total off day: he established a new record! He missed 7 consecutive shots.

The Plasmagun combat squad, shouldn't have left the heroic Rhino: they died the same turn and after all, the PG is the shot that counts the most and it can shoot effectively out a rhino.

Next week where doing another 2 vs 2 with 2k points. I'm going to give Lysander another try and add some BA allies for a divination Libby.

I'm still convinced that sternguard need a bullet shield because they are targeted by everything my opponent has. This is also why I like to have some CC power, since in CC you can't be shot.

Edited by El_Jairo, 30 August 2012 - 09:44 PM.

[Squirrel]

cc is nice, but getting there is a total chore, 6e highly favours shooting.

land raider might as well be a rhino when it comes up against railguns. id personally screen with the raider, and move my rhinos behind it.

or better yet not even use a land raider.

single lascannons never hit anything, they need lots of numbers to accomplish anything, or re-rolls.

good analysis on the typhoons, that is indeed how they best work.

if your sternguard catch bullets, why not just use more tacticals, instead of investing more points, into an already expensive unit.

[El_Jairo]

Thanks for the feed back Squirrel.

I mainly ended up with a Land Raider, since it is the only transport for Terminators. The fact that PotMS has improved drastically makes it a lot more effective.
It is an effective way to attack enemy vehicles from a distance and it can provide cover from enemy fire.

I can see your point on removing it, but what would replace the things it adds to this army? I could use Dreadnaughts for TL-LC but two of them cost more than a Land Raider and they can't transport anything or provide as much LoS blocking cover.
Predators might be the better choice: TL-LC and HB side sponsons. From cost point of view they cost not much more and do bring the same fire power and have more potential fire power. But I would still need to invest more point in more mobility.

Apart from the fact that I don't have the right models yet. I feel the Land Raider is quite unique as vehicle. AV14 is already a good reason. True, with the new rules for vehicles and hull points this is not as effective vs every enemy.

And the reason that Sternguard attract so much fire power, is simply because they are that good: they are like a swiss-knife with a tool for each enemy with access to AP4, AP3 and 2+ to wound bullets makes them a threat to most armies.

In my experience, regular Tactical Marines have a limited shooting effectiveness: I rarely inflict more that 2 wounds, even with a full squad. Ok, maybe I should focus more on rapid fire range. But you are exposed to counter-charge if you do so. I feel a lot more confident with Sternguard and Lysander to rapid fire and take the charge.

But I am open for any suggestions. I'm with you that shooting is the most obvious forte for Marines in 6th, so I might need to test a more redundant list. As my impression in 6th is that quantity is more important than quality.

[Squirrel]

vehicle borne lascannons are best served with pread (autocannon, 2 sponson lascannons) 120. the firepower far outweighs the land raider, and the av13 is nice.

but that being said land raider doesnt really provide that much fire power, in fact if it is a transport, it should be gunning straight into midfield most of the time (this is why LRC is better sutied to the role). and what you would lose in screening capability, the idea is you make up in more redundancy (filling the board with more transports, and marines).

i guess the theory would be that you want to elimate squads, by bringing all your rapid fire to bear, and just bringing down a squad at a time. marines with combat tactics, or 5 man squads, are perfect for being assaulted, either they fall back naturally or are eliminated, allowing your entire army to open fire again.

while lynsander is a beast in hand to hand, his effectiveness as a bullet catcher is so so, only because you can afford 4 more sternguard, or 6 more tacts for his +100points over a normal hq. also his army wide stubborness can lead to being stuck in melees, that you want to fall back from and expose the enemy units to more fire.

[DarkGuard]

I agree with Squirrel, Lysander and the LR can probably go to make the list better. Drop a Sternguard and you can fit a Libby with them in a Rhino, take two combi-preds and you've still got points left over, possibly to grab a couple of MM ABs for fast melta.

Of course, you can continue using Lysander and the LR, but just be aware that they are probably not the best choices in your army.

[Deus Ex Ferrum]

Ok, maybe I should focus more on rapid fire range. But you are exposed to counter-charge if you do so.

But here's the beautiful thing about Tactical Squads. In 6th Edition, they don't mind being charged quite as much as before.

They get at least one shooting phase blasting whatever's going to charge them in most cases. Then, they get to Overwatch the enemy, which may result in another shooting phase worth of punishment. And without Lysander (this being the reason why *I* dropped him form my armies), if you lose combat (which, let's face it, they're Tactical Marines, they probably will), you can then Combat Tactic away from close combat, immediately rally, and expose the enemy to even more shooting and even more Overwatching if they end up assaulting you again. It's a matter of playing to the army's strength: shooting.

[DarkGuard]

Plus, if you take a power sword or similar, you can cause trouble in challenges, by either killing your opponents Sergeant (or equivalent) or cause him to hide, thereby taking away his superior statline.

[El_Jairo]

Thanks for pointing out that chapter tactics aren't optional. I can see now that it brings an effective downgrade as I used Combat Tactics in my last game.

So you suggest I would better use a regular captain instead of Lysander. Switch the land raider for two predators and get the SternGuard a rhino as transport.
I guess I still was thinking too much 5th edition, so I wanted to be able to hurt something in CC.

Then I would drop the power fist on the SG sergeant for a power sword, or maybe drop them to 9 to have the captain join them, so he can soak wounds with an artificer armour.

I also wanted to report on my last game in a 2v2 2000 point game. I teamed up with a Grey Knight player, who brought the Paladin Deathstar, a Stormraven, two Riflemen Dreads, a Dreadknight and two Soladins.
I expended my list with BA Termi Libby with SS and 5 assault marines with a MeltaBomb.
We played vs Chaos who brought MSU Rhino spam, backed up with two defilers, 3 crazy dreads, 2x 3 Obliterators, 5 jump troops, 4x ML Havocs and an IG ally with chimera, 2 Leman Russes and some Orbital Bombardment staff.

It was a game for the Relic but we won it in seizing the initiative and me having a blasting first turn of shooting. Almost everything I shot got blown up or ended dead. Only my single LC failed to penetrate it's target.

So I could say that my list wasn't the real reason for my success, rather my skill for throwing 6's at the right time

I'm going to write up a 1500 list for competitive play for a tournament in October. So Land Raider goes out and Predator in. I'm only concerned that the side sponson LC's won't see much action as I can only fire 1 effectively after movement. I presume you need to move it in order to gain good LoS. So ATM I'm still favouring the turret mounted TL-LC.

For bigger games I was thinking about Sicarius as he can boost Seize and the squad that mans the quad gun at the ADL. Do you think that is worth his cost?

Thanks again for the feed back and the advice.

[Deus Ex Ferrum]

Then I would drop the power fist on the SG sergeant for a power sword, or maybe drop them to 9 to have the captain join them, so he can soak wounds with an artificer armour.

Well, that depends on what the Captain has. Fists are good, it's the I1 and challenges that worries people like me and DG. If the Captain is in there has a weapon that strikes at I5 -- say, a relic blade -- then by all means, keep the fist on the sergeant. That way, against anything other than Terminators (which I suggest avoiding anyway) you're covered. The Captain can handle the challenges from AP3 characters while the sergeant squishes enemies with his power fist. You don't even need a storm shield on the Captain (though it's never a bad idea), just artifcer armor. Give him a combi-weapon and Hellfire rounds, and he fits right in with the Sternguard.

I'm going to write up a 1500 list for competitive play for a tournament in October. So Land Raider goes out and Predator in. I'm only concerned that the side sponson LC's won't see much action as I can only fire 1 effectively after movement. I presume you need to move it in order to gain good LoS. So ATM I'm still favouring the turret mounted TL-LC.

The TLLC is expensive though, which is why it doesn't get much truck around here, though if you trust to your luck with those sixes, it does provide an opportunity. You're worried about moving and shooting with a tri-las Predator? Well now, at least the other guns get to shoot. So what you can do is, move and fire a sponson at full BS and snap-fire the turret, hoping that the reroll for being linked gives you that second hit. Whether it's a better idea than snap firing both sponsons and using the turret for an all-but-ensured hit is a matter for debate, but hey -- it's an option.

For bigger games I was thinking about Sicarius as he can boost Seize and the squad that mans the quad gun at the ADL. Do you think that is worth his cost?

Eh.... I'm not a fan of Sicarius. I think he's too expensive for what he does. I do, however, encourage you to try him out if you want, though. Not everything works for everyone. If you're interested, here's why I don't like him:

1. He grants a single USR to ONE squad in your army.
2. The so-affected squad MUST be a Tactical Squad. A workhorse unit, sure, but not a primary damage dealer in MOST cases.
3. He's kind of an ass in the fluff.
4. His CCW is a schmoe power sword. He can make ONE attack that causes ID, but in the age of Look Out Sir and the new wound allocation system, that only matters in a challenge (which in my experience so far, are relatively rare). Plus, it's only AP3, so it can't cut TDA or artificer armor, which look like the new (old?) hotness for keeping ICs alive. Shrike at least has Rending for handling that kind of thing.
5. There's no good place to put him in most armies. He's a combat character without a bike, jump pack, or ability to teleport. The only real place to put him where he can reliable get into CC in short order is with Termies or Vanguard or maybe a Command Squad in a Land Raider -- all of which are expensive on top of the LR and on top of his point cost.

What I DO like him for:

1. Better Seizing of the Initiative.
2. LD10 across the army.


Edit: Oh, and this has become less and less "Techmarine-y" the longer the thread gets. I wonder if somehow your original vision has been lost in the constant barrage of tactical advice. I'm a fellow Techmarine-y player, so if you want, I can give you some help swinging it back towards that theme...

Edited by Deus Ex Ferrum, 06 September 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[DarkGuard]

Also, in addition to everything DEF said, 2v2 games are quite hard to judge your army on. There's too many variables in there, especially when it'll normally be performing in a 1v1. I'd keep it the same until you've had a few 1v1 games, you don't want to make hasty decisions.