44 replies to this topic

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd like to start a discussion on our fearsome MCs, how best to use them, and how best to support them.

Or DreadKnights were a solid unit in 5th, although overshadowed by the TL Autocannon Dreads, but have recived a substaintial buff in 6th.

So how do we make best use of them?

Keeping them bare, there are a CC orientated unit, whose primary purpose is to run at the enemy, then smash things with S10 Doomfists. But we have some nice upgrades for them.

The Heavy Incinerator has always been a reliable weapon in thier arsenal, and is still a solid choice. Even with Cover saves being reduced in 6th, there now seems to be easier access to Cover saves, and more access to cover saves out in the open. The Heavy Psycannon has seen a small buff, with the ability to hit at full Strength on vehicles over the whole 'blast' template. The Gattling Psilencer is still as /meh as it ever was, but has the option to be used with Overwatch, unlike the Heavy Psycannon.

As for CC upgrades, the Hammer really doesn't seem worthwhile now, and the Greatsword opens a can of worms as to whether or not you gain it's benefits while using other CC weapon options.

Last but not least on the wargear front is the Personal Teleporter. While it doesn't make the NDK a 'flying' MC, it does have the unique 'shunt' ability.

Apart from Force Weapon activation, we can all but ignore the NDKs Psychic Powers, which is a massive shame. Hammerhand is only an option if you use the GreatSword, and we'll have to wait for the new Chaos 'dex to see if Dark Excommunication is useful for anything other than a Choas Daemon army, which is already at a significant disadvantage facing the Grey Knights anyway.

So, how can we put this all together to leverage the most out of our DreadKnights?


1: Leave them bare

You get a durable (no other MC in the game has a 2+ Armour Save) CC unit that runs towards the enemy, soaking up fire doing so

2: Gun Platform

Give them just the Heavy Psycannon, and you have a mobile, mid range 4 Hull Point 'Dreadnought' to drop a blast.

3: Interceptor

Give them a PT and use them to pressure the enemy backfield.


With the resurgence of Plasma Weaponry in 6th, and it's ability to ruin our DreadKnights, I feel that getting them close to our opponents as quickly as possible, and getting them stuck into CC (which they are better designed for), is the best use of our Knights. For pressure, output and survivaiblity.

In CC with have Initative hitting S10, AP2 Force Weapon attacks coupled with Fear and Hammer of the Righteous. Enough to ruin Everytihng in the game. Our 2+ Save makes us more durable to Power/Force Weapons than any other MC, and we can't be IDed by the slower AP2 weapons anyway.

While, as a character we have both Precision Shots and Precision Strikes, we can also issue Challenges. Another feather to our CC prowess.

And if we really want to get into CC, then the PT is the way to go.

So, Just take a PT and call it a day? Is that the best option?

Would it be worth spending a little more on some Ranged upgrades? The Heavy Incinerator? If we're getting close to our enemies, we might as well make the most of our range and lay some Template death on them, right? The Heavy Psycannon seems a little out of place here, with the potential to scatter back into us. How about the Gattling Psilencer? Not really a great weapon, but it gives you the option to torrent some extra damage, plus it can be used alongside the Heavy Incinerator in Overwatch, unlike the Pyscannon.

If your group rules that you gain the benefits of the Greatsword when using a Doomfist, that's really a no brainer.

But now, our DreadKnights are starting to look quite bloated, point wise. 295 points for the full monty, compared to 205 for just the bare essentials.

Shunting gives us some extra tactical advantages that shouldn't be overlooked. Facing a pure flyer army with limited units on the board? Shunt to expose them and have a round or two to wipe them off the board. Shunting can be saved for last minute objective grabbing/contesting, but it can also be devestating effective when used offensively.

If you have the first turn, Shunt toward your enemy, bypass any vehicle blocks they might have and put pressure on the home DZ/backfield right away. As you can't assault after the shunt, this is only really effective if you have at least the Incinerator (and preferably a second gun, I'd suggest the Psilencer here) to thin the ranks right away. If you go seocnd, you can deploy to hid your NDKs as best as possible and use the shunt to get back into position.

I'm quite enamoured by the idea of first turn shunting with 'shooty' NDKs. Imagine facing an enemy who teleports first turn past your defenses with 3 durable MCs that all lay a S6 Template / 12 SB shots into you. And leave you to deal with three MCs up close and personal, that will start eating your units in CC the next turn.

You *have* to deal with these as a priority.

How best to support NDKs in this sort of situation? Mordrak? Interceptors? Both? Drop Mordrak in support (with or without his Ghosts). Take 30 Interceptors and Shunt them alongside the NDKs?

Loading up on Interceptors would really necessitate using Coteaz and Henchmen for your Troop allocaitons, Although 'The Grand Strategy' is nice to use to make either scoring. Especially with the new Mission that allow either Fast or Heavy slots to score (I'm unsure if the NDKs would be scoring int he mission that lets Heavy Slots score though, can't remember the mission rules!).

Then there's always using Allies to include even more MCs in your list. Like bringing Eldar along for the Avatar and a Wraithlord. Not as fast as PT DreadKnights, so this option might work best with 'cheaper' NDKs. A wall of 5 MCs running towards your enemy should be daunting as well.

Overall, I feel our DreadKnights deserve a little more attention and time in the spotlight in 6th, and that the TL Autocannon Dreads aren't the default option they used to be.

What are your thoughts on our Imperial MCs? How have they changed in 6th? How's best to use them, and how would *you* use them?

Persoanlly, I'm keen to get them *bamphing* into my opponents face turn 1 and laying the smack down!

[Creamywynch]

I tend to run my dreadknight with teleporter, 2 doomfists and incinerator or psycannon. I think though that going with the incinarator is the better option though as the scatter on the psycannon can be a bit of a bummer and the incinerator absolutely annihilates troops. Giving the dreadknight a teleporter makes it a jump monstrous creature so the 12inch movement is a huge boon to getting in your opponents face. Take a grand master and give it the scout ability and you can get a charge in first turn most times without using the shunt move. These guys are a must have in 6th in my opinion. My opponents crap themselves when they see one and usually dedicate half their army to taking it out, thus saving my other units and enabling them to get within that precious 24 inch range with minimum of casualties. Run it up the flank with a unit of interceptors and that is one half of your opponents army in combat in the first turn. It is not pretty for them but very satisfying and effective.

[spartan249]

Dreadknights by my estimation fulfill one of two POUs effectively: Counter-Assault and Stalker.

A Dreadknight with ranged weapons deployed as part of a larger GK frontal offensive could be a cheap way to add serious close combat punch to the army without breaking the bank on terminators/paladins. Not as effective, perhaps, but much cheaper.

I think a Dreadknight comes into it's own when it is filling the Stalker POU. Given a Teleporter and Incinerator, Dreadknights can lurk out of LOS, providing flank coverage for a main GK offensive while waiting for the opportune moment to shunt out and flame a unit off the board. Because of the absolute precision of this attack, opponents using units that are vulnerable to flamers have to tread very lightly and make doubly sure that they are not exposed, which is nearly impossible thanks to the 42" engagement range of the Dreadknight. In addition, T3 enemy models are absolutely horrified at the notion of a Dreadknight lurking in the shadows, as all those wounds inflicted are instant death to them (Many a heavy weapon team has burned instantly to a crisp by this tactic). This becomes especially reliable when Grand Strategy is used, as it nearly guarantees that all your hits wound.

Either way, judicious use of visual isolation and local superiority are necessary to ensure that the DK can survive to continue wreaking havoc on enemy forces.

[Gentlemanloser]

Let's look at the changes 6th has bought, and what aspect of 40k they favour;


1: Precision Shots/Strikes

The only weapon we'd get use of Precision shots out of is the Gattling Psilencer, which is our least used weapon, and often ignored. Precision Strikes however is a pure CC buff

2: Challenges

CC buff again. Allows you to increase durability in CC by calling out a single mini, and not allowing the rest of the Squad to hurt you.

3: AP in CC

Hitting at AP2 on Iniative is a massive bonus. Massive. There's hardly anything else that hits for AP2 at an Iniative higher than I1 in the game. (Can of Worms time for Quicksilver and Banshee Masks, only mentioned for reference, *don't* want to open that topic again...) The NDK is our TDA killer.

3: Hammer of Wrath

Another CC buff. S6, AP- hit at I10. It's like having Cleansing Flame lite, that doesn't require a Psychic Test to use.

4: Fear

Another pure CC buff.

5: Smash Attacks

Yet another pure CC buff, but one that's not really that useful. Unless you're running the GreatSword.

6: Blasts remaining at full Strength over the whole template

A nice boost to the Heavy Psycannon. S7 Rending, no matter where the template lands.


These changes are almost all CC orientated. That really paints a picture for me!

What else has changed in the transition from 5th to 6th that impacts the NDK?

Edited by Gentlemanloser, 13 August 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[Vash]

At the moment I am playing a deep strike army. Of course I dont need to deep strike if my opponent is heavy on the close combat front. Usually heavy close combat oriented armies lack the fire power. GK are really well oriented in both, but at the cost of mid range.

Anyhow, I use my NDKs with PTs and jump for cover (or shunt if I need to) and breaking Line of sight as much as possible. As turn 2 arrives, I jump in closer and start harassing my opponent. I have a cheap inquisitor in my deployment, and out of sight from enemies with Psychic communication to boost the reserve rolls.

Locking the enemy in close combat with the NDKs and shooting with my deep striking force. Usually I have everything up and in your face at this moment, giving my opponent my whole army as target priority.
But with this tactic I usually get my NDKs in close combat in turn 2, thus making them safe from enemy fire. Some times I have to cancel a charge, so I give the enemy more targets to shoot at. This has actually worked out pretty well. It confuses the enemy, and saves other units. Tbh, I rather have my terminators alive at this point than the NDKs. They are scoring and dish out more damage.

I am still my self interested in using the Gatling psilenser. I dont think its all that bad. Sure, for all those happy math hammer guys out there it is really bad. I wont argue about that. But the slight chance of actually doing precision shots at heavy weapons, special weapons, heck even characters such as sergeants, just might be worth it.
Yes, against the most common foe, power armor, it isnt the optimal weapon. But I do play against other things than just power armors. Orks and necrons I quite normal for me to fight, and tyranids. Heck I even have 3 friends playing daemons.

With lower armor saves, the NDK with a gatling psilenser will be quite annoying. Then again, I am used to paying 50 pts for a punnisher cannon for my Vulture gunship. So I am more fogiving when it comes to high points costs.
Sure, its not the best comparison, a twin linked punnisher cannon is still better, but it doesnt have precision shots.

[thade]

I am still my self interested in using the Gatling psilenser. I dont think its all that bad. Sure, for all those happy math hammer guys out there it is really bad. I wont argue about that. But the slight chance of actually doing precision shots at heavy weapons, special weapons, heck even characters such as sergeants, just might be worth it.

It can precision shot? Is the NDK a character? I missed that. (Or maybe MCs have Precision Shot...which I don't recall.)

It's really time for my third full read through of 6th Ed rules.

[Zeratul29]

Dreadknights are character monstrous creatures indeed, they have character under their unit type in the BRB

[Furyou Miko]

You should rely on them to take out Necron Lords.

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[Gentlemanloser]

Is the NDK a character?

Precision Shots/Strikes and can issue Challenges.

Very nice for CC!

[worloch]

I run NDK's with Heavy Incinerator and Personal Teleporter.

I love the Heavy Incinerator - St 6, Ap 4, Ignores Cover burninates a lot of stuff right out, and puts a hurt on just about everything else. The fact that you can plop the Template down at range is like a delicious topping on a confection of your choice. Add in the fact that it auto-hits 1-3 times for Overwatch, and you have pure win in my book. I will take a brief moment here to vent my angst that our Dreadnoughts don't get access to these very obviously Dreadnought sized weapons (Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Gatling Psilencer)

Personal Teleporter is a very expensive upgrade, but one I feel is worthwhile overall. 12" move is awesome for getting where you need to be, and being able to skip over terrain and units really helps your mobility. Using the Jump Pack in the assault phase instead garners your a reroll of the charge distance, which can be crucial. Finally, the Shunt option is pure win for tactical flexibility. On most boards, it means you have potential access to the whole board in a single move. Even with the restriction that you can't assault afterwards, the pressure it can apply is immense.

The psychological duress that a NDK w/ Heavy Incinerator and PT applies to your opponent is also amusing. Nothing quite like pointing out to your opponent all the places that your NDK *might* shunt to and unleash all kinds of carnage, and watch as they try to find a way to react to nigh-infinite possibilities.


I do not prefer the Heavy Psycannon - I don't feel that it is a worthwhile upgrade over the regular Psycannon for the cost. The number of hits you get is dependent on 2 factors - your scatter roll, and number of potential targets. Regular Psycannons have only 1 factor, the number of hits you roll. Firing the Heavy Psycannon at a lone model is actually worse than firing your Heavy 4 shots from a regular Psycannon, which could net you 4 hits on the 1 target. I feel the cost is too prohibitive on an already expensive model.

The Gatling Psilencer is more compelling than the regular Psilencer, but still lacking in my mind. 12x St 4 Ap - shots doesn't add up to much in most circumstances. Adding it to Heavy Incinerator could be a potentially nice combo, allowing you to take advantage of the fact that MC's can fire two weapons for Shooting, but still kind of expensive on your already expensive model.

The Greatsword is pretty awesome, but with new rules on DCCW's finally giving the NDK St 10 natively, and the Smash special rules, I just don't feel we really need it for the cost. If you have the points for it, it can be great, but I like to try to keep the point costs reasonable per NDK.

All that said, we have to deal with the fact that our opponents are going to rightly fear the NDK and will do their level best to kill it outright asap. The best weapon to kill a NDK is St 8 or higher and AP 2 or lower - Basically Anti-Tank weaponry will fall in to this category. Almost all armies are going to be packing Anti-tank, which means almost all armies are going to include something to make it a bad day for your NDK. Lascannons, Dark Lances, Plasma, Rail Guns, etc, are going to be pointed at your NDK from the get go.


Tactically, to me that means we need to bring at least 2. One NDK is ripe to be focus fired down in a single turn. Two NDK's have a much better chance of surviving. If both are equipped the same way, they can back each other up or provide redundant functions. Two NDK's popping up in the backfield can not be ignored and with two Heavy Incinerators, hopefully you can toast anything that would be immediately threatening.

We do need to also plan our list around the fact that every NDK we take means one less option from Heavy Support, including our popular Psyflemen. You could take Venerable Psyflemen from Elites, but I feel the upgrade cost to Venerable is not worth it in 6th. Losing Psyflemen will hurt your long range AT firepower.



Some other things to consider are losing the PT's and DS'ing the NDK's in. I personally still prefer the PT, as you can (AFAIK) Shunt in from reserve, giving you options and providing excellent flexibility (Jump 12" in OR Move 6" in and reroll charge range OR Shunt 30" in), and you won't lose your NDK to a DS mishap.

Some people have reported having success with taking Interceptors to accompany their NDK's. I myself have not tried it, because I think Interceptors are overcosted, but it is something to consider.

I personally think a GM becomes almost mandatory when running with Multiple NDK's - Grand Strategy is just amazing. Being able to make the NDK's Scoring, Scouting or at the very least, re-rolling 1's wound is wonderful.

[The Holy Heretic]

I liked to run two tricked out Dreadknights in 5th with teleporter, incinerator, psycannon and sword.

Many would say that the psycannon was a waste, but it allowed my dreadknights to avoid getting locked in combat with hordes - ideally it would blast infantry apart with its guns and tear vehicles apart with its sword. So although the psycannon is expensive, I'd say it paid for itself quite a few times, in allowing my DK to perform its duty.

With doomfists going to S10 and vehicles being easier to hit in CC, the sword really lost its value - except for its coolness factor.

The heavy incinerator is just about the best weapon out there.

The personal teleporter is horribly expensive, but the added mobility and the last minute shunt is simply fantastic, but since investing in Hammer or Sword isn't worth it anymore, I'd reconsider the investment and relegate the DKs to a more shooty role - those 200 points saved on swords and PTs could get me quite a lot of other stuff

[Vash]

I am still my self interested in using the Gatling psilenser. I dont think its all that bad. Sure, for all those happy math hammer guys out there it is really bad. I wont argue about that. But the slight chance of actually doing precision shots at heavy weapons, special weapons, heck even characters such as sergeants, just might be worth it.

It can precision shot? Is the NDK a character? I missed that. (Or maybe MCs have Precision Shot...which I don't recall.)

It's really time for my third full read through of 6th Ed rules.

At the back of the BRB there is an updated unit entry for all the units in the game. There you will find that NDKs and justicars are characters.
Some weapons have also gotten some new rules.

[Black Orange]

Here is my current build:

— personal teleporter
— heavy incinerator
— gatling psisilencer

A lot of points but built as such the NDK can punish any infantry unit - even terminators if necessary. I am playing a small elite army now so access to a high rate of fire can be crucial and well worth the additional points for me. He doesn't tend to last long since he is a huge threat but he can dish out substantial amounts of damage. He is definitely one of my favorite units now in 6th edition.

G

[thade]

It really is time for me to assemble my NDK.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's also a nice model to put together!

No excuses, time to get that bad boy up and running!

[thade]

It's also a nice model to put together!

No excuses, time to get that bad boy up and running!

Haha, sadly my excuses are 1. four weddings, 2. planning my own wedding, 3. promotion and release at work, 4. Adeptus Custodes conversions are pain-staking and I am super picky.

As for the NDK...maybe I'll start a thread on it, haha. I want to give the sucker a cockpit.

[breng77]

I see people saying challanges are a bonus for the Dreadknight, infact it is a double edged sword as it stands to decrease his CC killing ability against squads that don't hurt him much (IG platoons, tactical squads etc.) He can easily be tied up by a squad for a turn during a challange (more turns with blob guard), he is also slightly hurt by the change to fearless rules as fearless blobs will tie him up as well.

That said overall he got a buff, and is a good unit. I would still run mine with a teleporter as it allows you to pick your fights and postition yourself to snipe models.

As for other equipment the sword is not as much of an auto take as it was but still good.

The Heavy incinerator is still the best gun, but the psycannon got a buff with mech getting a little weaker, and the blast being full strength against armor beyond the hole. The psylencer also got a buff, not sure I would take it, but with less vehicles it is slightly better and it can glance AV10 and it is the only Dreadknight weapon that can snapfire (and thuse shoot at flying MCs/rear armor on a flyer)

[thade]

Another important note about Challenges is the rule that gives whatever model he's challenged a host of re-rolls against him for all the models that are forced to stand and watch the fight (because they're throwing stuff at his invincible armor which "distracts" him).

[worloch]

Yes, the NDK has to be wary of the tar pit. Some armies can just throw some large units of infantry at him and tie him up a few turns, while they deal with the rest of your army.

Of course, that's why we like the Heavy Incinerator and PT - That ranged template can put a real hurt on a mob coming to tie him down, and the PT keeps him mobile enough to hopefully avoid engagements like that.


And Breng77 is right when he says that challenges are double-edged for the NDK. Being a lone model means the NDK has to accept an offered challenge, so a sergeant can step up and sacrifice himself to buy another turn for his squad. Heck, if the opponent loses combat due to the sergeant being squished in the challenge and successfully falls back (avoiding a sweeping advance); well, that could be considered a the best outcome for a bad situation, saving most of the squad.

On the other hand, being able to challenge out those Powerfist wielding Sergeants is key, so I'd say one side of that sword is sharper than the other .



If the Gatling Psilencer was like +15 points, I'd take it ... but it's not. If the Heavy Psycannon was like +25 points, I'd take it ... but it's not. If you take 2x NDK's and arm them the same way, 2x Heavy Psycannon = 5 man Strike Squad (IIRC - no book at work). I'd prefer 5 more bodies, 5 more wounds w/ 3+ As, 5 more Stormbolters, 5 more NFW's, one more Warpquake and another scoring unit over 2x Heavy Psycannons.

The Heavy Incinerator is totally worth it because it:

1) Doesn't miss ... ever - No roll to hit, no scatter, just put the template in place and count the hits.
2) Has Ap of 4 - Bypasses most non-heavy infantry Armor Saves
3) Ignores Cover Saves - Hiding won't save you
4) Has St of 6 - 2+ to wound on most of your targets, and a decent chance on light vehicles
5) 12" range - Amazing ability to position the template for maximum carnage
6) Can Overwatch for automatic hits - a little bonus for you if you get charged for some reason
7) Can Burn units in Buildings - Pretty funny to burn the cowards hiding in the building in addition to hitting the building

The fact that it isn't the NDK's most expensive Ranged Weapon option is kind of funny to me, but hey, I'll take it

If the Heavy Psycannon or the Gatling Psylencer were better, I'd take them, but they aren't and I can use those points to more effect elsewhere (anyone else wish it was a Gatling Psycannon and Heavy Psylencer?).



So, from a list building perspective, how do we enhance and support our NDK's? I already mentioned the GM w/ Grand Strategy as being an excellent enhancer. What else do people do?

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm sadened that we really can't make use of the MC shot two weapons option.

As for support, has anyone considered running them as a 4HP 24" shooty Dread? With just the Heavy Psycannon? Same cost as a Venerable, but no one's going to touch those any more!

There's also the idea of running them bare, and going full on MC.

Draigo/Karamzov
3 x NDK
Avatar
Wraithlord

Depending on how you class Draigo/Kara, that's 5-7 MCs, all running at your opponent.

Probably not a great idea, but might be fun for a couple of games!

Really, is the only support for a PT NDK Interceptors and Mordrak? It's another shame we don't have *any* options for ICs with PTs... Maybe in our new Dex in 10 years time.

How about StormRavens, even carrying Dreads, to back up PT NDKs?

If the NDK could carry a Teleport Homer, we could have DSed other units around it. Kinda like aping our 'nemesi', where Daemons DS in off of an Icon. Quite thematic!

[nurglez]

I love my DK's, and I used them before they were cool too

Alongside my draigowing, my DK is the only thing that can sweeping advance, even though it has pseudo terminator armor.

I have never tried out any other ranged weapon then the heavy incinerator, due to the fact that the heavy incinerator is just so awesome (I've said it many times when sticking up for my inclusion of a DK over a psyrifle dread many times in 5th, heavy incinerator fills a niche that no other weapon I have does, and it does it well).

Remember that casualties are taken from the side you are closest too, so if there is a ork nob on the other side of a 30strong boy mob, jump next to the nob and flame on! sure you will only be able to do this once before your opponent gets wise, but it's worth remembering

Yes a DK will get tied up by a horde of fearless troops, but this works both ways, and removing the 1 powerfist in a squad is rather good, so your target in a duel get's rerolls, doesn't matter if you ignore their save!

[Zeratul29]

True, my dreadknight got charged by 19 boys and a nob, he flamed a couple from overwatch, nob declined the challenge, Dreadknight proceeded to nom on the boys, and afte 1 GAME TURN he got them to less than 10 boys and sweeped the rest, so you might not get as tied up as often as you think he might.

[breng77]

That is because the ork player was not very savy. Better that he accept you challenge with the Nob (there goes one player turn killing the Nob), Then there are still 17 boyz(you said you killed 2), next player turn you kill 4 at best and neither of those is likely, but lets give you 4. Then he is down to 13. 1 Game turn down, Next turn assume you kill 4 again (not likely) and he is down to 9, then he needs to fail morale. Also picture what happens when there are 30 orks...or a squad of 50 IG with 5 sargents and a commissar, so he can challenge you 5 -6times (2.5-3 player turns) and chances are this assault does not happen turn 1, so it is likely the rest of the game at that point.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd assume that's when the tarpit get's multi charged by Purifiers, and goes *poof*.

[nurglez]

True, a large squad will tie you up, same as any MC will.

It may be advantageous to tie up a large squad, if they are scoring you can keep them away from an objective, or they are a threat to one of your scoring units.

My current 1850 Dragiowing list has 2 of them, with teleporters and heavy incinerators, one with a greatsword (giving me 45 wounds among 19 models, all 2+/5++ apart from Draigo). I intend to hold them in reserve and shunt on when needed to toast enemy scoring units or get close to things that can inflict heavy damage on my paladins.

I think the great sword can be pretty good, and I'm keeping mine as I like the look of it. I know what my rolling can be like, and even though DK's are ws5, I often fail a few 3+ to hit. Im off the opinion that you can't use a greatsword to reroll your str 10 fist hits, but lets not digress this thread into arguing over that

oh and

give it the scout ability and you can get a charge in first turn most times without using the shunt move.

You can't assault in the first turn if you use a scout move.

Edited by nurglez, 14 August 2012 - 10:10 PM.