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Litanies of the Dark Angels


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#1
farfromsam

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I did a quick search through the forum because I know this must have been answered already. However, I could not find the post so here goes nothing.

Most people should have their Dark Vengeance boxes, including their L.E. chaplain. He came with his own character sheet with his stats and special rules. Anyway my question is this, does the Advanced Rules "Litanies of the Dark Angels" act as a special character rule, an FAQ update that replaces the our current litanies for the codex (both of those would apply in game changes) or is this simply a sneak peek, special mission flavoring, etc and has no effect outside of the D.V. box set. I feel like I'm reading too much into this.

Again this had to of been answered already just point me in the right direction.

Thanks for taking the time. FFS.

#2
EPK

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The card says at the top: "Special editions of Dark Vengeance include Interrogator-Chaplain Seraphicus, a bonus Citadel miniature that can be included in the Dark Angels army for missions 5 and 6."

I'd say this implies he, and is rules along with him, are DV only, but perhaps it is a glimpse into something Int-Chaplains or Dark Angels in general may get in the next codex (like Preferred Enemy: Chaos Marines?). If he could be used with our current codex, I feel it would say he was an addition to Codex: Dark Angels (there is also no point values for any of these models).

For that same reason, the rule itself certainly does not replace anything in our current dex either.

That's my take at least.

Edited by EPK, 06 September 2012 - 03:27 AM.


#3
farfromsam

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That's what I was thinking as well EPK. Especially since the current DA codex the int chaps have the litanies of hate. just had to double check. Oh! however I'm under the impression that if they have no point cost they are free... lol anyways thanks for the insight!

#4
EPK

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That's what I was thinking as well EPK. Especially since the current DA codex the int chaps have the litanies of hate. just had to double check. Oh! however I'm under the impression that if they have no point cost they are free... lol anyways thanks for the insight!


And now that I think about it, they probably didn't give him litanies of hate because it would have unbalanced the starter set more so where this litany is only rerolls of 1s.

Free? I like it!

#5
march10k

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of hate because it would have unbalanced the starter set more so where this litany is only rerolls of 1s.



Well...Litanies of hate is certainly better...but...while litanies of the dark angels only rerolls ones and only against chaos space marines, it does so always, not merely for one round of melee when charging...so it's got some upside...against the right enemy! Assuming that you're fighting CSM, rerolling ones every turn is better than rerolling all misses only once, unless of course you kick the crap out of them on the charge...in which case, hey, you're winning, so who cares?

Actually, litanies of hate is the best reason to take a chaplain, especially since a crozius is only AP4, so if DA loses that...FAIL. If litanies of the Dark Angels is on top of litanies of hate, okay, it's too situational to be broken, or if it replaces litanies of hate only when playing against CSM, that's fine, too.

Edited by march10k, 06 September 2012 - 04:15 AM.



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#6
Azrael Turnbull

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It's not free as you have to replace an existing character, like the Librarian. When playing Dark Vengeance, I find that 'Litanies of the Dark Angels' is better, because it lasts throughout the game, you don't have to be the one charging, it works for rolling 1's to wound AS WELL and it also works in your shooting phase. In your shooting phase! Add this Chaplain to the Deathwing and watch them pump out death from their guns. A shooty and combatty character.
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#7
Drunkspleen

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What's interesting is it's potential as a sign of things to come, surely it's no coincidence that it lines up perfectly with the new version of Preferred Enemy.

I wouldn't be shocked to see Litanies of Hate replaced with Preferred Enemy for his squad in the new DA dex (and probably future SM releases), it fits with GW's inclination towards streamlining special rules where possible and makes the IMO under represented chaplain a bit more versatile and viable (since it affects shooting too).

The only strange bit with regards to this theory is the fact that it specifies only working against Chaos units, which is entirely unnecessary in the Dark Vengeance rules which can only be used to fight Chaos units, and I don't think they would be cruel enough to make Chaplains even LESS practical than they currently are.

#8
march10k

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I don't think they would be cruel enough to make Chaplains even LESS practical than they currently are.


Less practical than they currently are??? They're currently AWESOME. Other than taking belial for the sole purpose of unlocking termies, I certainly wouldn't take a captain/master. And a librarian, yeah, it's become psycherhammer, but they did the one thing that they had to do to avoid making it critical that you take a libby. That is, they nerfed the PH. If I'm fielding a badassed assaulty unit, I defintely want a chappy to go with them for litanies of hate. And I'd take that chappy before I'd take a libby. I don't think they're impractical at all! I think they're sharing the "first choice" slot with psychers. Hell, last time I fielded a librarian, his psychic abilites were kinda meh in terms of their impact on the game, it was his force staff insta-gibbing a dreadknight that won the game for me! And nobody takes a librarian for his force weapon... If they did take litanies of hate away, that would be...well, they'd still be better than captains, LOL. They'd just stop competing with librarians...but as of right now, they're not just practical, they're game-breaking. Or at least that's how I feel when a crusaderload of termies with accompanying TDAIC crashes into the enemy battle line...



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#9
CovertToaster

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The only strange bit with regards to this theory is the fact that it specifies only working against Chaos units, which is entirely unnecessary in the Dark Vengeance rules which can only be used to fight Chaos units, and I don't think they would be cruel enough to make Chaplains even LESS practical than they currently are.


It's fluffy though as it represents their hatred of the fallen who have, you know, fallen to chaos. Wouldn't surprise me at all if GW replaces litanies of hate in a new codex with this rule.

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#10
Drunkspleen

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To be clear I meant in the more recent codices (Space Wolves / Blood Angels) and on reflection, the issue really isn't marginalization of Chaplains so much as the fairly silly levels Librarians leapt to in these codices which is causing them to be over represented and the Chaplain to not find his spot in the army as easily.

Between price decreases and increases in power librarians have gotten fairly out of control, I just feel in these newer Codices the Chaplain demands a bit more utility to match up, I also think the Captains require the same to be honest, although in terms of the Dark Angels, I think Rites of Battle is that sort of utility.

#11
shabbadoo

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Oh yes. Litanies of the Dark Angels particularly sucks for Dark Vengeance, as the plasma pistol-armed Interrogator-Chaplain, along with the combi-plasma-armed Dark Angels Company Master, can be joined to the Tactical Squad which contains a plasma pistol, plasma gun, and plasma cannon. And that is a good thing too, as the Dark Angels will need everything they can eke out of their forces to be bale to defeat the much superior Crimson Slaughter forces they will be facing. :P

Now, imagine a 10-man unit of Dark Angels Veterans all armed with plasma guns/pistols being joined by an Interrogator-Chaplain with Litanies of the Dark Angels. They will suck even more still! :)

Edited by shabbadoo, 07 September 2012 - 09:57 AM.

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#12
Azrael Turnbull

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Out of curiosity and a little spare time, I have applied some maths to investigate the benefits of each Litanies of Hate and Litanies of the Dark Angels, and how each one suits different situations. The examples will be against a Chaos opponent, but I am confident that if the preferred enemy rule does appear in our codex, it will be against more than just Chaos. Subject, to preferred enemy working in all scenarios, I have done my work as per below: (all done to three decimal places)

A = Chances of hitting, B = chances of wounding.

Litanies of Hate:
(1-(A*A))*B

Litanies of the Dark Angels:
(A*B)+(1/6*A*B)+(A*1/6*B)+(1/6*A*1/6*B)

For below, please refer to the following key:
A represents Litanies of Dark Angels
B represents Litanies of Hate

The following results are per single 2/3 chance of hitting:

1/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.151
B = 0.148
2/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.302
B = 0.300
3/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.454
B = 0.444
4/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.605
B = 0.592
5/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.756
B = 0.741

The following results are per single 1/2 chance of hitting:

1/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.113
B = 0.125
2/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.223
B = 0.25
3/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.340
B = 0.375
4/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.454
B = 0.5
5/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.567
B = 0.625

I have not had chance to double check all of my workings, only some, so I apologies if I made an error along the way. However, I am confident that the above is accurate. Judging by the results, the rule that has greater affect is determined by the difficulty of hitting your opponent, regardless of what roll is need to wound. To hit on 2/3 is better to have Litanies of the Dark Angels. To hit on 1/2 is better to have Litanies of hate. It's fair to say that anything easier than 2/3 or harder than 1/2 is easy to work out which rule is better to follow.

But then we take in then consideration of circumstances. To use Litanies of Hate, you have to be in close combat and you have to charge your opponent. Something that will happen once, maybe twice a game. If all goes horribly wrong, you might not even land a single charge. On the other hand, not only does the Litanies of the Dark Angels have a permanent game affect, but they also benefit shooting attacks. Since it's safe to say that you will be hitting on BS4, you're actually better off re rolling 1's to hit and wound than re rolling all failed to hit attacks.

In respect of the above, it is my conclusion that the Litanies of the Dark Angels is the most beneficial rule in most foreseeable circumstances. Esepcially now that taking a Chaplain on foot is a viable option. Exceptions may include Lightning Claw Terminators, who will suffer no boon to their rolling to wound, or similar cases. We also have to take into consideration that future rules may not give us preferred enemy against anyone other than Chaos, which will be problematic for our AP4 wielding Chaplain (good for mashing cultists and hitting vehicles at least).

Please post your comments about this method.

Edited by Azrael Turnbull, 07 September 2012 - 10:51 AM.

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#13
DAG42

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Out of curiosity and a little spare time, I have applied some maths to investigate the benefits of each Litanies of Hate and Litanies of the Dark Angels, and how each one suits different situations. The examples will be against a Chaos opponent, but I am confident that if the preferred enemy rule does appear in our codex, it will be against more than just Chaos. Subject, to preferred enemy working in all scenarios, I have done my work as per below: (all done to three decimal places)

A = Chances of hitting, B = chances of wounding.

Litanies of Hate:
(1-(A*A))*B

Litanies of the Dark Angels:
(A*^_^+(1/6*A*B)+(A*1/6*B)+(1/6*A*1/6*B)

For below, please refer to the following key:
A represents Litanies of Dark Angels
B represents Litanies of Hate

The following results are per single 2/3 chance of hitting:

1/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.151
B = 0.148
2/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.302
B = 0.300
3/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.454
B = 0.444
4/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.605
B = 0.592
5/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.756
B = 0.741

The following results are per single 1/2 chance of hitting:

1/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.113
B = 0.125
2/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.223
B = 0.25
3/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.340
B = 0.375
4/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.454
B = 0.5
5/6 chance of wounding:
A = 0.567
B = 0.625

I have not had chance to double check all of my workings, only some, so I apologies if I made an error along the way. However, I am confident that the above is accurate. Judging by the results, the rule that has greater affect is determined by the difficulty of hitting your opponent, regardless of what roll is need to wound. To hit on 2/3 is better to have Litanies of the Dark Angels. To hit on 1/2 is better to have Litanies of hate. It's fair to say that anything easier than 2/3 or harder than 1/2 is easy to work out which rule is better to follow.

But then we take in then consideration of circumstances. To use Litanies of Hate, you have to be in close combat and you have to charge your opponent. Something that will happen once, maybe twice a game. If all goes horribly wrong, you might not even land a single charge. On the other hand, not only does the Litanies of the Dark Angels have a permanent game affect, but they also benefit shooting attacks. Since it's safe to say that you will be hitting on BS4, you're actually better off re rolling 1's to hit and wound than re rolling all failed to hit attacks.

In respect of the above, it is my conclusion that the Litanies of the Dark Angels is the most beneficial rule in most foreseeable circumstances. Esepcially now that taking a Chaplain on foot is a viable option. Exceptions may include Lightning Claw Terminators, who will suffer no boon to their rolling to wound, or similar cases. We also have to take into consideration that future rules may not give us preferred enemy against anyone other than Chaos, which will be problematic for our AP4 wielding Chaplain (good for mashing cultists and hitting vehicles at least).

Please post your comments about this method.


My head hurts. Where's the fun? ;)

#14
Drunkspleen

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A = Chances of hitting, B = chances of wounding.

Litanies of Hate:
(1-(A*A))*B

Litanies of the Dark Angels:
(A*B)+(1/6*A*B)+(A*1/6*B)+(1/6*A*1/6*B)


Your Litanies of Hate formula appears to be wrong, although it's clear from looking at your results that they are correct. Your chance to hit formula is "1-(A*A)" if you substitute in a 100% chance to hit (1) you get the result "1 - (1 * 1)" for a grand total of 0% chance to hit. It should be (A + A(1 - A)) or (2A - A^2).

EDIT: also, just a matter of personal preference, but you can simplify Litanies of the Dark Angels down to (A + (1/6 * A)) * (B + (1/6 * B))

Edited by Drunkspleen, 07 September 2012 - 02:39 PM.


#15
Azrael Turnbull

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My head hurts. Where's the fun? :mellow:


The fun starts when you actually play the game and let the dice make a mockery of all mathematical logic. :)

I apologise Drunkspleen, you are right, that is the correct formula. I knew I would miss something when I typed it up, but the formula you gave was the one I used. I'm not going to edit my post, since as long as the meaning has gotten across, the actual workings hold no further purpose.

I'm already thinking of some interesting places to stick my Chaplain if we get preferred enemy against all opponents. Sternguard squads (if we get them) is a definite.
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#16
march10k

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Please post your comments about this method.


Well...it appears that your mathhammer only applies when facing CSM...that's a major downer, that litanies of the dark angels only work against one army. It is definitely superior to litanies of hate...except on the rare occasion when you face a different army.

As for the fact that litanies of hate only works if you are the one doing the charging...that's easy. I've never fielded a power-armored chaplain on foot. It's either a bike (he actually does massive good to a six-bike squadron, given that they get to pick their victim, being faster than anything else on the board!) or TDA in combination with a crusader. So getting the charge at least twice a game is NOT a problem.

If the codex ends up giving us generic preferred enemy on our chaplains, fine. If it's preferred enemy only against CSM, I'd rather keep litanies of hate. Speaking of which...with litanies of the dark angels...a chaplain accompanying a squad of jumpers would let them reroll ones to hit...with AWESOME impact on get's hot! reroll the ones, if you still get a one, get an armor save...and rumor has it that the next codex would let us reroll failed gets hot armor saves...resulting in a 0.3% chance of any given plasma shot killing the firer...almost makes a squad of eleven jumpers worth the extra 60 points for four plasma pistols.



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#17
IndigoJack

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This is just a guess, but perhaps chaplains handing out preferred enemy was the rumor was implying when it mentioned we get a new way to handle gets hot? It just seems like preferred enemy and re-rolling failed armor saves for get hot over-powered, if not over-kill.
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#18
Azrael Turnbull

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You might be right, but I'd be disappointed if that was the case. I would expect some kind of background based expertise, rather than it just happens to work better because a Chaplains close by.

And March10K, I agree with you. In fact, I even said so in my posts, but I guess I can't blame everyone for not reading all of it. I was quite bored. However, I don't think they'd keep preferred enemy to fighting only Chaos. It'd be a total let down to all of us if they did.
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