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Stage 1 - Expanded Weapons Rules


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#26
Brother Tyler

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Return to INDEX

gallery_26_6416_1703.gifDEATHWING WEAPONS (changes)

FLAIL OF THE UNFORGIVEN
Same as power fist.

HALBERD OF CALIBAN
The Halberd of Caliban functions as both a power sword and a power lance.

MACE OF ABSOLUTION
Same as thunder hammer.

#27
Gillyfish

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I'm comfortable with the Mace, would want to playtest the power sword/storm shield combo but I don't think the Halberd is quite right. Balance wise, the model only has one weapon (unlike most terminator models with power fists). Given that close combat specialism, perhaps a better option would be the lightning claw rules?


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#28
Brother Tyler

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Doing the math, the Deathwing weapons don't provide any real advantage over power fists when fighting Genestealers. The "problem" with the Deathwing Knights is that their rules make them best when used as a single squad and their weapons are most effective against Chaos Space Marines. So their rules in Space Hulk (against Genestealers) are comparable with other Terminators, while the eventual Long War expansion (loyalists versus traitors) will see their real benefits realized.

Looking at the initial estimates, I think the flail and halberd should be reversed - the flail acts as a power fist and the halberd works as a power sword (the mace is fine).

And then the Deathwing Champion, Deathwing Knights, and Knight Master would all have the same bonus as the Sergeant (effectively achieving your suggestion, I think).

Likewise, Grey Knights Paladins would have the same bonus as the Sergeant.

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#29
Brother Tyler

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Okay, I've been playtesting the rules and have found an issue with the special rule we've developed for the power lance:
 
POWER LANCE
On any turn in which a Genestealer moves into the space immediately in front of the Terminator, the Terminator model may roll a second D6 in assault. In subsequent turns (assuming the Terminator survives) he wouldn't receive the bonus. In all other respects the power lance functions the same as the power fist.


This actually ends up being a bit vague and I'm not sure that the end result matches up with the intent.

The basic intent behind the rule is that the Terminator gets a bonus when a Genestealer charges towards him and then launches an attack. The wording of the rule, meanwhile, allows for one "incorrect" thing to happen and also allows a Genestealer player to game the game in order to nullify the attack.

The "incorrect" thing is that a Genestealer moving laterally would also be victim to the attack.

Keeping in mind that the bonus only works if a Genestealer moves into the square immediately in front of the Terminator.

The diagram below shows a Genestealer moving laterally across the front of a Terminator armed with a power lance. In this situation, the Terminator should not benefit from the special rule of the power lance (regardless of the Terminator's facing).

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The diagram below shows a Genestealer charging into the space in front of a Terminator armed with a power lance. In this situation, the Terminator should benefit from the special rule of the power lance (if the Terminator is facing the Genestealer).

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The diagram below shows a Terminator with a power lance charging into a space adjacent to a Genestealer. Assuming the Terminator is facing the Genestealer (and why wouldn't he?), the Terminator should benefit from the special rule of the power lance (regardless of the Genestealer's facing).

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The diagram below shows a Terminator with a power lance turning to face a Genestealer in an adjacent space. In the theoretical example, the Terminator's first action was to move into the space adjacent to the Genestealer, followed by a turn action, to be followed by a close assault. The Terminator should not benefit from the special rule of the power lance (regardless of the Genestealer's facing).

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Note that while all of the diagrams above take place at intersections, the examples apply equally well in rooms.

Also, I'm starting to think that the power lance special rule (rolling an extra dice in close assault) doesn't work. The reason for this "game the game" issue I brought up earlier. Basically, the current wording of the rule allows the Genestealer player to simply move a Genestealer model into the space adjacent to the Terminator and then not attack (either by turning to face the Terminator or simply withholding a close assault). The Terminator wouldn't benefit from the special rule of the power lance if/when he made a close assault.

The whole intent of the power lance's special rule is that it should provide the Terminator player with a slight benefit in close assault when being charged by or charging a Genestealer.

So my current idea is to change the benefit to a free special close assault. In either of the two situations illustrated above, a Terminator armed with a power lance would get to launch a free (no AP/CP) special close assault. The Terminator player would roll a D6. on a 6, the Genestealer is killed. Sergeants and other characters equipped with a power lance would get their bonuses to attack, increasing the odds for them to successfully kill the Genestealer. The Genestealer would not get to roll dice in this attack. All subsequent close assault actions between the two models would be resolved normally.

Also, I'm thinking about changing the rule for the Halberd of Caliban. It would function as both a power lance and a power sword (the free attack when charging/being charged and the ability to parry).

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#30
Brother Tyler

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I've updated the rules for the Deathwing weapons above.

I've also been looking at the Grey Knights weapons and realized that I dropped the ball on the Nemesis weapons.

NEMESIS FORCE SWORD
Same as power sword.

NEMESIS FORCE HALBERD
Same as power fist.

NEMESIS DAEMON HAMMER
Same as thunder hammer.

NEMESIS FALCHIONS
Same as power sword.

NEMESIS WARDING STAVE
Same as power fist.


The Nemesis portion is going to have to be factored in, if for no other reason than the fact that Nemesis weapons function as force weapons. A byproduct of this is that the Grey Knights are going to have to have special rules to represent their psyker nature. In order to preserve some semblance of game balance, they will probably have a low amount of force points in order to use their force weapons - not as many as a standard Terminator Librarian, but enough to be effective.

Also, each of the Nemesis force weapons brings a slight modification to the basic power fist rules.

The overall effect is that Grey Knights change the game balance. Where the standard dynamic is that the Terminators are great at shooting and weak in close assault, with the Genestealers being beasts in close assault, Grey Knights Terminators are just as effective at shooting while being slightly more effective in close assault. I suppose that playtesting will be necessary, though I'm going to make some slight tweaks here in order to preserve as much game balance as possible.

So my current thinking is that the Nemesis force sword, despite being a sword, will function as a force axe; a Nemesis force halberd will function as a force lance (power lance/force axe combination); a pair of Nemesis force falchions will function as a force sword; a Nemesis daemon hammer will function as a thunder hammer/force axe; and a Nemesis warding stave will function as a force sword.

"But why doesn't the Nemesis force sword act like a regular force sword?" you ask. Easy. The Nemesis force sword is the most common type of Nemesis force weapon (per the lore). It's also two-handed, unlike the one-handed power weapons utilized by other Terminator models (yes, I know that it's easy to convert two-handed weapons). It comes down to the necessity for game balance. So the Nemesis force sword, as the most common type of weapon, assumes the performance of a power fist.

And then we have to consider how many force points to give the Grey Knights. We can consider 10 points to be a maximum, though it might get as low as 5 points. In my mind, the fewer the points, the better - this will help to preserve game balance by limiting the potential effectiveness of the force weapon aspect of Nemesis force weapons. I'll leave this up to playtesting, with the intent being to allow the favor of force weapons without unduly upsetting the balance and general dynamics of the game.

All of the above is why I didn't want to include Grey Knights in the first place. msn-wink.gif

And shifting to power lances (which has the potential to cascade into Nemesis force halberds if my current concept stands), the starting point for the revised wording is:

POWER LANCE
A power lance functions as a power fist. In addition, a model armed with a power lance may take advantage of the power lance's extended reach in close assault.

Charging
When a Terminator armed with a power lance moves forward and a Genestealer is in the square to his immediate front, the Terminator may make a free close assault. This close assault is part of the forward movement and doesn't cost any APs. Roll 1 dice. If the dice scores either a 5 or a 6 the Genestealer is destroyed and removed from play.

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The Terminator only benefits from the free close assault if the Genestealer is in the square to the immediate front when the Terminator moves into the square. If a Terminator has to turn to face a Genestealer in an adjacent square, the Terminator does not benefit from the free close assault.

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Being Charged
When a Genestealer moves forward into a square to the immediate front of a Terminator armed with a power lance and the Genestealer is facing the Terminator, the Terminator may make a free close assault. This close assault is resolved in the same way as when a Terminator with a power lance charges.

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The Terminator does not benefit from the free close assault if the Genestealer is moving laterally across the front of the Terminator.

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If the Genestealer survives the free close assault, subsequent close assaults are resolved normally (i.e., with the power lance functioning as a power fist).

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#31
JeffJedi

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For the Power Lance, what about the bonus triggering on the first attack a Genestealer makes against the Terminator that turn if the Terminator is facing the Genestealer?  This would remove any worry about how the Genestealer moves. The Terminator uses the Power Lance like a spear and receives the charge gaining a small bonus. After that it reverts to a power fist.

 

I propose the free attack thing above be named Hammer of Wrath and be altered to work just like a storm bolter combining with a move. This could easily be given to a Squad of Deathwing Knights (and Thunderhammer Terminators squad) as their special ability. While some may say that is a unfair bonus losing the Storm Bolter and overwatch is a great disadvantage, especially in a 5-man squad.

 

Move forwards one square and attack in close combat: 1 Ap


Edited by JeffJedi, 24 December 2013 - 09:12 AM.


#32
Brother Tyler

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For the Power Lance, what about the bonus triggering on the first attack a Genestealer makes against the Terminator that turn if the Terminator is facing the Genestealer?  This would remove any worry about how the Genestealer moves. The Terminator uses the Power Lance like a spear and receives the charge gaining a small bonus. After that it reverts to a power fist.
 
I propose the free attack thing above be named Hammer of Wrath and be altered to work just like a storm bolter combining with a move.

I could see this being "gamed" by the Genestealer player - simply move a Genestealer into the square in front of the Terminator and then leave it there without making any close assault actions. Now that I read the first draft I posted above, though, I can see the Genestealer gaming the Charged rule - simply move the Genestealer forward and change the model's facing. So while we need to tighten up the wording, the concept of the charging/charged focusing on the movement is key (in my opinion).

This could easily be given to a Squad of Deathwing Knights (and Thunderhammer Terminators squad) as their special ability. While some may say that is a unfair bonus losing the Storm Bolter and overwatch is a great disadvantage, especially in a 5-man squad.
 
Move forwards one square and attack in close combat: 1 Ap

I don't have any sympathy for the Deathwing Knights. Practically speaking, anyone that can field a squad of Deathwing Knights should be able to field one or two squads of regular Deathwing (which is what they should be using). The Deathwing Knights will come into their own when we get around to the Long War expansion.

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#33
Brother Tyler

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Just to pre-empt potential questions - I've reviewed the new Grey Knights codex and have determined that the Grey Knights weapons rules (such as they were msn-wink.gif ) don't need to be revised.

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#34
Roderikum

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Talking about power Spears as They're ruled: I can't see the Pont in looking for cc with the stealer being terminators so weak against them, even if it is a free clase combat attack. It's better for the bearer of the spear to shoot it (and that's free too), which prevents the stealer from counterattacking in your own turn.
What if the spear allows you to roll two dices instead of One and pick the Best? It would be in between of the powerfist and the lightning claws, keeping the terminator free of being counter attacked in his own turn while boosting him in cc.
It's better stablished in brother Taylor's october's 12th of 2012 entry. "On any turn in which a Genestealer moves into the space immediately in front of the Terminator, the Terminator model may roll a second D6 in assault. In subsequent turns (assuming the Terminator survives) he wouldn't receive the bonus. In all other respects the power lance functions the same as the power fist."

Edited by Roderikum, 22 September 2014 - 06:56 AM.


#35
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Don't powerfists only grant a single die in close combat? Why wouldn't a relic blade grant a second die? 


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#36
Brother Tyler

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Why would a relic blade grant a second die in close assault?

If you compare a WH40K relic blade to a WH40K power fist, the only advantage it confers is its speed. Now compare the WH40K relic blade to a power sword. The only advantage it confers is better strength. So the WH40K relic blade performs midway between a power sword and a power fist.

Now compare the SH power fist and power sword. The power sword confers the Parry ability.

In the streamlined SH rules, the relic blade isn't that special.

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#37
JeffJedi

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Two dice seem to be reserved for either double handed weapons or two weapons. Some more powerful weapons grant a +1 to the dice roll.

 

One difficulty of adding extra weapons into the game is that the baseline is so low but the powerfist is very powerful in 40k. One could imagine a Guardsman with a knife would be 1D-1.

 

Likewise a Storm Bolter is pretty powerful as far as basic weapons go. Would a Lasgun only have 1D shooting? At a certain point the weapons would become almost useless.

 

Just using these as examples.



#38
Brother Tyler

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Given that, the power lance doesn't compare in power with the power fist or force axe, so it wouldn't rate an additional d6.

Lasguns, combat knives, and guardsmen are irrelevant as they do not (and will not) appear in Space Hulk. Keep in mind the closed nature of the game - it is just Terminators versus Genestealers. All we care about is the comparison of the weapons with the enemy.

When we get to other antagonists, we will basically utilize Space Hulk concepts in similarly closed systems (i.e., comparing the antagonists).

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#39
Brother Tyler

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We're going to press forward with this. For those weapons for which rules were provided in the mission packs, we'll point to those mission packs as the official rules while continuing to provide these rules as a homegrown alternative for those that don't have access to the packs (like me).

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#40
Brother Tyler

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Codex: Deathwatch was released after this project was initiated, and that codex allowed for Terminators within the Deathwatch. So it's necessary to further expand the weapons rules to include the following. Note that these are an initial stab at things. We'll need to discuss in order to refine/finalize them.


Return to INDEX

gallery_26_6416_1703.gifDEATHWATCH WEAPONS (changes)

COMBAT SHIELD
When fighting a close assault to his front a Space Marine armed with a combat shield can parry an attack, just as if armed with a power sword. If the Space Marine is armed with another item or weapons that confers a parry, the combat shield grants an additional parry.

DIGITAL WEAPONS
When fighting a close assault to his front a Space Marine armed with digital weapons may roll one additional dice.

POWER FIST WITH AUXILIARY MELTAGUN
Same as a power fist and the melta portion of a combi-meltagun, but is not subject to the Limited Ammunition rule.

The idea with the combat shield is simply that you get one (additional) parry with it. If you don't have a power sword or the like, you get one parry from the combat shield. If you have a power sword or the like, you get an additional parry. Only Watch Captains may take this, so it will only enhance one model.

Digital weapons are another story - the WH40K version (7th edition) lets you re-roll one To Wound roll with them. I'm assuming the 8th edition version are roughly similar, but I don't have the codex. I've basically done a straight translation of that, though this makes it more powerful since there is only the one roll in Space Hulk (though in this case, it's contested). Only the Watch Captain can take this, so it's only affecting one model that isn't taken in most missions.

The power fist with auxiliary meltagun is pretty much a straight translation from WH40K (7th edition) to Space Hulk. This is actually very powerful because any model in a Deathwatch Terminator squad can take this upgrade, and there is no points cost in Space Hulk. For that reason, I'm considering making it a one-use item (i.e., removing the portion about Limited Ammunition not applying) in order to shift the balance back to the middle.

Thoughts?

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#41
Brother Tyler

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Are there weapons unique to the (new) Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, or Thousand Sons that need to be added? I don't have any of these 8th edition codices, so I'm relying on other players to help me make these complete.

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#42
Gederas

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Are there weapons unique to the (new) Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, or Thousand Sons that need to be added? I don't have any of these 8th edition codices, so I'm relying on other players to help me make these complete.

- Reaper Autocannon (Chaos Marine & Death Guard Blightlord Terminators)

- Power Scythe (Death Guard Deathshroud Terminators)

- Chainaxe (Chaos Marine Terminators)
- Soulreaper Cannon (Scarab Occult Terminators)
- Plaguespurt Gauntlets (Death Guard Deathshroud Terminators) - Short range Plague Weapon hand-flamer

- Blight Launcher, Plague Spewer, Balesword, Bubotic Axe, Flail of Corruption (Death Guard Blightlord Terminators) - Plague Weapon Grenade Launcher, Plague Weapon flamer, Plague Weapon Power Sword, Plague Weapon Power Axe, Plague Weapon that causes wounds to spill over if it kills something

- Plague Belcher (Plague Marines) - Plague Weapon heavy flamer

 

I don't have the Thousand Sons codex, but I've got Chaos Space Marines 2 and Death Guard codices.


Edited by Gederas, 24 April 2019 - 02:51 PM.


#43
Brother Tyler

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Looking at the Grey Knights weapons, I'm inclined to make a few changes.

NEMESIS FALCHIONS
A Grey Knights Space Marine armed with Nemesis falchions fighting a close assault to his front rolls an additional dice in close assault. When on guard the model may re-roll one of the two dice, not both. In addition, when fighting a close assault to his front a Grey Knights Space Marine armed with Nemesis falchions can parry an attack as if armed with a power sword.

NEMESIS FORCE HALBERD
Same as power lance.

This makes Nemesis falchions sort of like lightning claws, but with the parry of a power sword. Unfortunately, it makes the Nemesis force sword redundant.

In addition, I'm adding the following for Grey Knights (pending revisions):

...Each Grey Knights Space Marine will be armed with either an incinerator, psilencer, or psycannon, or with a Nemesis weapon (see below) and a storm bolter.

PSYKERS
All Grey Knights Space Marines are psykers. Grey Knights Librarians start each mission with 20 psi points. All other Grey Knights Space Marines start each mission with 5 psi points. All Grey Knights Space Marines may use their psi points to charge their Nemesis weapons (see below). In addition, Grey Knights Librarians may use Psychic Powers as a Librarian (see the Space Hulk Rulebook).

NEMESIS WEAPONS
Nemesis weapons include the Nemesis daemon hammer, Nemesis falchions, Nemesis force halberd, Nemesis force sword, and Nemesis warding stave. Psi points can be used to add a bonus to the Grey Knights Space Marine’s dice roll in close assault, just as a Librarian’s force axe.

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#44
Brother Tyler

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I made a few more changes in the preliminary copy (just mentioning them here since they're about weapons):

 

The relic blade adds 1 to the assault roll.
 
A single lightning claw only does 1D6 + 1 in assault.

 

I'm also looking at a few more changes. I was just re-reading Space Hulk Campaigns (1st edition Space Hulk) and I saw a few things I'd forgotten about, mostly regarding flamers (affects the combi-flamer) and [reaper] autocannons.

 

Changing flamers is iffy. The only real change would be an improvement in their chance to kill from 5 or better to 4 or better. The only reason I'm waivering on this is because flamers were introduced as an alternative to the heavy flamer, for power armoured Space Marines. The combi-flamer is meant as a optional nice-to-have. Of course, that also means that the minor improvement likely won't be game-breaking in any way.

 

The reaper autocannon has a few changes. First, the 1st edition Space Hulk version didn't allow the free move and fire - the model had to be standing still to use it. Second, the 1st edition Space Hulk version could benefit from sustained fire. So I'm thinking that those are easy changes, sort of balancing each other out.


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#45
Brother Tyler

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D'oh! And I forgot that I'd added the Deathwatch items (just those available to models in Terminator armour):
 
Combat Shield
When fighting a close assault to his front a Space Marine armed with a combat shield can parry an attack, just as if armed with a power sword. If the Space Marine is armed with another item or weapon that confers a parry, the combat shield grants an additional parry.

Digital Weapons
When fighting a close assault to his front a Space Marine armed with digital weapons may roll one additional dice.

Power Fist with auxiliary Meltagun
Same as a power fist and the melta portion of a combi-meltagun, but is not subject to the Limited Ammunition rule.

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