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BA 1500 theoretical tournament list, take all comers


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#1
arsarcanum

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Ok, so I just recently started playing blood angels (post 6th edition) and have been losing a bunch, and almost always because of ordinance (So my list attempts to make my units harder to target by blasts). I like to play WYSIWYG, so that limits choices to some extent (I magnetize everything though), along with being short on cash, so as you review the list please consider that.

The list is as follows:
(note I have yet to play a game with this exact list, but I have used individual parts of it with success).

1500 points (which I could easily bring up to 2000 for some tournaments, probably by adding a tactical squad and some death company)

HQ- Librarian w/ plasma pistol and force sword -115 pts
(Divination Primaris power, and random Divination power most likely)
HQ- Reclusiarch - 130 pts

Elites- Sternguard Veteran Squad
6 veterans
2 combi-flamers
3 combi-meltas
power axe on sergeant
(the librarian is attached to this squad)
with the squad in a drop pod - 230

Troops-
Tactical Squad X 10 marines
plasma gun and lascannon
power maul on sgt.
in a rhino - 255 pts

Tactical Squad X 10 marines
plasma cannon
and flamer
in a razorback with twin-linked plasmagun and lascannon
265 pts

Death Company X 6 marines
one with thunder hammer,
one with power axe,
one with power sword,
the rest with bolters and chainswords.
(the reclusiarch would be attached to this squad)
180 pts

Death company Dreadnought-
vanilla dreadnought with blood talons
125

No fast attack

Heavy support-

Stormraven gunship
twin-linked lascannon and twin linked multimelta
200 pts
(it will transport the death company dreadnought and death company)

1500 pts total

The way it will work:

It depends heavily on terrain and enemy armies, but most likely sternguard will drop pod behind enemy lines to deal with a threatening vehicle, or a threatening squad. with the librarian's divination powers, 3 meltaguns should be able to take out almost any vehicle. On the off chance I get the divination power that lets me roll overwatch at regular ballistic skill, very few squads would dare attack the sternguard. Even if they don't get that power, on overwatch they should be well off, rerolling to hit, wounding on 2+ or even ignoring armour saves on MEQs. Basically there are few armies that won't have A squad vulnerable to them. The combi flamers are to help a turn if I'd like to charge, as they are quite good at assaults despite wielding bolters.

the razorback should be able to deal with monstrous creatures, transports or even land raiders, and since it's fast, will transport my squad AND be able to shoot both weapons. The plasma cannon will be combat squaded to hold an objective in ruins or something like that, taking out what it can.

The other tactical squad in a rhino can have the squad inside it combat squad, and that way can shoot two different units. A lascannon shot to a raider and plasmas to a transport etc. (I've been told a multimelta would make more sense, since I'd have so much range in a vehicle, but I think in the grand scheme, I'd like the option of hiding my lascannon away in a ruin somewhere, picking off guys 4 feet away in some games, and I lose that option with a multimelta, on top of the possibility of that extra 1 strength making a big difference if I can't get into 1 foot range).

If the game is objective based, I will try to take objectives with the tacticals after a turn or two of anti-vehicle shooting (or both if possible).

lastly, and most importantly:
almost half my army's points, the stormraven (and transported squads)!
This will basically come in zooming, shooting any fliers out there, or if there are none, shooting vehicles, or whatever is left. A big part of this choice for my army is mostly the lack of good anti-flier. Until the codex is updated, I feel forced to take a stormraven if I don't want allies. I have no interest in fortifications, so please don't bother mentioning their anti-air capabilities.

The turn after the stormraven comes in, it will hover and let out the death company (with a range of about 4 feet, I'm quite sure they'll reach anything they want).
The dreadnought is to massacre horde armies (as I find I have little to deal with hordes in this list).
the death company is to assault virtually anything in the game. With 4 thunder hammer attacks at WS 5, str 10, Reroll to hits and to wounds... even the toughest creatures out there stand no chance without an inv save, and even then, they have the rest of the squad to deal with-- a reclusiarch, an axeman, and a swordsman, with chainsword wielding fodder.

My army's weakness-- scoring units. Yes, I'm aware I only have 2-4 scoring units (4 with combat squads) which can easily die and leave me point-less. BUT, sternguard are ideally going to keep a point unsecured, a nice cozy heavy weapon wielding combat squad in a ruin should be able to stay safe (or distract the opponent enough to be worth losing) and death company to strike right where an enemy is about to capture a point, I'm not too worried. What I'm saying is, since I know it can be a problem, I will take extra care in objective games.

Any suggestions or critiques etc are appreciated thanks :)
(keep in mind I want to be able to take all comers, not take fortifications (I don't like them fluff-wise for BA, they're annoying to carry and I just generally don't care for them), and I would very grudgingly take an ally).

Edited by arsarcanum, 09 October 2012 - 01:28 AM.


#2
Zedrenael

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Another weakness is taht the librarian will be unable to cast its powers until the second turn. So you are lacking in the FnP department. I would consider taking Brother Corbulo for the sternguard or just a regular Sanguinary Priest. In a 1500 point list I would consider more of a field presence with more than half in reserve turn 1.
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#3
Res Ipsa Loquitur

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I would drop the Reclusiarch. I've not used Sternguard so can't really comment but also can't help but think that your DC need that pod more than the Sternguard do. You've got a lot of points tied up in that Raven; one lucky Interceptor shot and there goes half your army. Speaking of the DC, I'd probably drop the Sword, only put a Bolter on the Thunder Hammer guy and maybe take another two guys. I don't know why you're taking a Maul on your Tactical Sergeant, naked, Chainsword or Power Sword is the only way to fly, IMO. I'd also use some of the Reclusiarch's points to get a Sanguinary Priest with Melta Bombs.

I know you said that money is tight but I really think you need a ten-strong, 2x Meltagun Assault Squad more than you need the Sternguard. Put a Power Sword on the Sergeant and they're 5pts cheaper than your current Sternguard. Give the Librarian and Priest Jump Packs and attach them to the Assault Squad and you've got a highly-mobile, scoring unit that can look after itself, pick off enemy troops and some extra anti-horde capability to boot.

If you do all this it'll come to 1495pts.

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#4
arsarcanum

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First off, thanks for commenting. You're right about the raven having a big risk, but I can come in hovering to avoid interceptors; the vehicle is likely fast enough to still deposit the squad next turn about half the time, depending on table size. Also, the reclusiarch let's the death company re-roll to hits AND to wounds, so I'd say he easily makes up for his points. I've used reclusiarchs before and have solo wiped out horde squads with them. In sixty edition, a big part of why I take them is they become the warlord and are much harder to kill than a 2 point librarian. The reason I took the power maul on the sergeant is because 6 strength AND concussive lets him take out vehicles, monstrous creatures and scouts or anything lighter. Also, I don't put the death company in a drop pod because I tried that once, and the enemy basically just kept running away from them, and I failed 2 charges... So I just really want them in an assault vehicle. So far I've used stormravens a few times and they've gone through whole games without dying. Also, the death company dreadnought gets shafted without it. Oh and the reason I took sternguard over assault squad is because my assault squads have been obliterated by templates too many times... I wanted a list where everyone has a transport.

#5
arsarcanum

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Another weakness is taht the librarian will be unable to cast its powers until the second turn. So you are lacking in the FnP department. I would consider taking Brother Corbulo for the sternguard or just a regular Sanguinary Priest. In a 1500 point list I would consider more of a field presence with more than half in reserve turn 1.

I had initially considered brother corbulo, but I found that he increased the survivability of the squad while decreasing its killing ability greatly. Are you SURE the librarian can't use his power first turn? Drop pod assault specifies at the beginning of your first turn they come in, I always thought that was before the movement phase. After coming down, the librarian can cast his power. If you're right, then yeah the librarian may not be a good choice. No one has called me on using it the way I do though...

I only have one unit not on the board first turn really. The stormraven and what it transports, which is almost half my points, but it should come in the next turn or two. The idea is partially to let the opponent advance, then hit hard in the front with my death company and dreadnought .

Edited by arsarcanum, 09 October 2012 - 12:45 PM.


#6
Zedrenael

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Another weakness is taht the librarian will be unable to cast its powers until the second turn. So you are lacking in the FnP department. I would consider taking Brother Corbulo for the sternguard or just a regular Sanguinary Priest. In a 1500 point list I would consider more of a field presence with more than half in reserve turn 1.

I had initially considered brother corbulo, but I found that he increased the survivability of the squad while decreasing its killing ability greatly. Are you SURE the librarian can't use his power first turn? Drop pod assault specifies at the beginning of your first turn they come in, I always thought that was before the movement phase. After coming down, the librarian can cast his power. If you're right, then yeah the librarian may not be a good choice. No one has called me on using it the way I do though...


I have had great effect with brother corbulo. One game I had him survive and kill two trygons, ground a hive tyrant and kill him. Do not underestimate that 2+ FnP.

I am SURE of it because the drop pod comes in at the start of teh movement phase before moving other models. Double check the deep striking/arriving from reserve rules. I will pin point it as soon as I get home.
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#7
arsarcanum

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I know you're right about other reserves, but I thought drop pods were the one exception. They come in in a different way... And about corbulo I know he's awesome for survivability, but if the librarian can use its ability first turn, then he just lacks the killing power. The sternguard squad, with a librarian, an wipe a 10 man squad with 5+ or worse save. They can reduce a tactical squad to half strength, and the librarian an instantly kill big creatures in melee.

Edit: I looked it up and it says at the begging of my first turn, rather than the beginning of my movement phase, so I'm still not 100% sure since the movement phase is at the beginning of one's turn.

Edit two: they specify psykers can't use powers at the beginning of the movement phase if it arrives from reserves. Do drop pods that come in first turn count as coming in from reserves?

Edited by arsarcanum, 09 October 2012 - 01:08 PM.


#8
arsarcanum

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Ok, after considering these comments, I'm thinking taking out the stormraven, putting the dreadnought in a drop pod, giving jump packs to the death company and putting the sternguard with librarian in the razorback, take out one sternguard vet. I may switch the reclusiarch for lemartes. With the extra points maybe make the Libby an epistolary. I might switch a tactical squad for an assault squad with meltaguns. I will have a weakness for flyers in this case however.

Edited by arsarcanum, 09 October 2012 - 01:30 PM.


#9
ianj253

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A reclusiarch may wipe a squad with the Dc but so would the DC without the Rec and 6 more dc for the same cost. Drop poding the sternguard seems risky. You land them in your opponents table side and give him a unit that is no harder to kill than normal marines. Maybe put these guys in a reserve rhino and bring them on later where you need them the most. DC in a pod can fill the same role as your sternguard. Drop pod them with IPs and they can melta a tank. They come with a built in FNP so you won't need to spend points on a priest.

#10
arsarcanum

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Actually I did the numbers And on the charge, the reclusiarch and 6 DC kill more than 12 DC. Remember the reclusiarch can make challenges, has 5 initiative, and lets everyone else reroll to hit AND to wound. That reroll to hit and wound with power weapons? Deathly. Death company usually always get the charge if you have them in an assault vehicle ;)

#11
Zedrenael

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You are talking about 35 points a model @ 6 models a piece that is 210 points for the squad. Tack on a reclusiarch and you are at 340 points that is teh equivalent of 17 DC. You are talking about 2/3 chance to hit and wound on the charge against standard space marines. WS5 vs WS4 and S5 vs T4. You are going to rack more wounds on 17DC with bolters getting 4 attacks a piece than the 5 attacks a piece with rerolls on 7 models. You are talking 33 extra attacks for the same point cost and in on going combat those extra attacks will come in handy. Or look at it with bolt pistol/chainsword marines. That is 50 more attacks the numbers dont lie you will inflict more wounds this way than the other.
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#12
Zedrenael

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You are talking about 35 points a model @ 6 models a piece that is 210 points for the squad. Tack on a reclusiarch and you are at 340 points that is teh equivalent of 17 DC. You are talking about 2/3 chance to hit and wound on the charge against standard space marines. WS5 vs WS4 and S5 vs T4. You are going to rack more wounds on 17DC with bolters getting 4 attacks a piece than the 5 attacks a piece with rerolls on 7 models. You are talking 33 extra attacks for the same point cost and in on going combat those extra attacks will come in handy. Or look at it with bolt pistol/chainsword marines. That is 50 more attacks the numbers dont lie you will inflict more wounds this way than the other.
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#13
ianj253

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yeah, not a 100% sure on the math man check this out http://www.bolterand...howtopic=257434

Have you considered mephiston? 250 pts and he's a level 3 psyker. Sad he can only take 2 BRB powers though :)

Rec's can challenge but they're all right. Depends on who you are challenging though. A space marine sgt with a power fist can ID him.

Edited by ianj253, 10 October 2012 - 04:49 AM.


#14
Zedrenael

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Alright so doing some research this is based on the charge.

17 DC with bolt pistol chainsword vs MEQ = 12.59 probably dead
6 DC w/ Axes, bolt pistol and Chappy vs MEQ = 27.39 probably dead
9 DC w/ Axes, Bolt Pistol = 25.02 probably dead.

I was mistaken on the probability. If you look at 6 DC with swords to swing at initative is 25.25. The problem that you are going to have is overwatch and going at intiative 1. So you may not have the axes left to swing with.

Ongoing combat you have
17DC with bolt pistol chainsword vs. MEQ = 5.69 probably dead
6 DC w/ Axes, Bolt Pistol vs MEQ = 8.08 probably dead
6 DC w/ Swords, Bolt Pistol vs MEQ = 6.03 probably dead
Chappy is always a .73 in ongoing combat

Edited by Zedrenael, 10 October 2012 - 06:31 AM.

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#15
Jolemai

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Forgive me if I am incorrect as I don't have the rule book to hand, but the reason the Librarian can't use spells on the turn he pods in is the same reason why the Storm Bolter can only snap shot on the turn it lands, and this is because of the speed the pod is said to have moved at.

You could free up some points by dropping the Power Axe or the Power Sword on the Death Company (or even both), especially as you are running a Reclusiarch with them. What armies do you regularly face that require those extra weapons? A good rule of thumb is one upgrade per 3/4 guys but each to their own.

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#16
From

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Note sure if some one has pointed this out but you can not enter in hover mode, you -must- zoom onto the board.

Edited by From, 11 October 2012 - 06:53 PM.


#17
J-rich54

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I have used a sternguard squad my last game and really kicked asses!
8 veteran ( 2 plasma, 4 combi-melta)
1 libby divination powers with combi-melta
Corbulo
Drop pod

I player agaisnt grey knight and this squad took down 2 dread knight, an entire 10 man GK squad and other GK squad and a vindicare assasin, yes they had some help but they did all that taking one casulastie from a blast... Corb tanked about 20 strom bolter shot without taking any wound

The libby cannot cast psy power on the turn it arrives but casted prescience on my stormraven when it arrived and on my dante/ sanguinary guard squad later in the game

It really did an amazing job!

#18
Chaplain Admetus

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Sternguard are great in my army. Turn up and slag something threatening (7 with a melta, 3 combi-meltas and a fist), and then either act as a distraction unit whilst my assault marines close in, or get left alone and can wreak havoc. They're a mini-assault squad in and of themselves since they have 2 attacks each, and people often forget that.
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#19
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Note sure if some one has pointed this out but you can not enter in hover mode, you -must- zoom onto the board.


not so.
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#20
mmaarrkk

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Note sure if some one has pointed this out but you can not enter in hover mode, you -must- zoom onto the board.



Hovering wont protectt against interceptor, inceptor works against anything coming in from reserves
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