Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Scroll of Magnus


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1
Pariah Mk.231

Pariah Mk.231

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 630 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne
  • Chapter Name: Iron Warriors/Black Legion
I've stumbled across something a little perplexing that I haven't seen previously mentioned on here, in regards to the Scroll of Magnus. It seems the only requirements to take it are access to Artefacts and the Mark of Tzeentch, without the requirement of being a psyker. The Scroll adds a new psychic power to the user, determined as if doing so for a Level 1 psyker, but doesn't say that it makes the user a psyker as a result. Since he doesn't have the ability to use any powers per turn, he doesn't become a level 1 psyker as per the psyker rules. Any way you look at it, he gains a psychic power without the means to use it, but better yet, everytime he uses the scroll, he can hurt himself.

Did we seriously just get given a way to pay for a model to commit suicide by repeatedly generating psychic powers he can't use? What do people reckon was the bit left out: the requirement to be a psyker to take the scroll or that upon using the scroll the user becomes a level 1 psyker?

This is more of a "What were they thinking?" question than a rule query, I'm not asking if people think we should gain the ability to make a Tzeentch Lord/Apostle a psyker by using the scroll, just which part they think was left out of it. I know it's rather foolish to take it for a non-psyker, but I'm sure someone, somewhere will be argueing that non-psykers can somehow use the power they just generated despite the fact they didn't actually become a psyker.
Hey, I just met you
And this is crazy
But Khorne wants skulls
Kill, maim, burn maybe?

#2
Verythrax Draconis

Verythrax Draconis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,434 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Campinas, Brazil
I think they just considered it a given - why anyone would by an item like that if the model isn't a psyker?

#3
Pariah Mk.231

Pariah Mk.231

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 630 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne
  • Chapter Name: Iron Warriors/Black Legion
We've all seen how things that were "just taken as a given" have been horribly misinterpreted and abused, or argued to death by people who just want it to go their way. Much safer to be concise and not present the oppurtunity to cheat and later claim that you thought your lord was able to use that power he just generated.
Hey, I just met you
And this is crazy
But Khorne wants skulls
Kill, maim, burn maybe?

#4
Verythrax Draconis

Verythrax Draconis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,434 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Campinas, Brazil
In fact, the text says "additional" and "new psychic power", and that you can't swap to the primaris power, which implies the model must have a psychic power prior to the scroll use = he needs to be a psyker.

Edited by Verythrax Draconis, 09 October 2012 - 01:30 PM.


#5
Pariah Mk.231

Pariah Mk.231

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 630 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne
  • Chapter Name: Iron Warriors/Black Legion
Don't worry, we're in complete agreement on the fact that, as worded, only a psyker can make use of the scroll. The question though is do you think they had intended to allow non-psykers to benefit from it (it is for Tzeentch afterall), or that they simply neglected to clarify that it was for psykers only? I know a handful of people who would argue until you just give up and let them play it that way that it effectively makes the user a level 1 psyker.
Hey, I just met you
And this is crazy
But Khorne wants skulls
Kill, maim, burn maybe?

#6
Verythrax Draconis

Verythrax Draconis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,434 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Campinas, Brazil
Yeah, I'm quite sure it was intended as a psyker-only as well. They could worded it better. But with all those clues, I think your opponent needs to be a real prick to insist on using it on a non-psyker :lol:

Edited by Verythrax Draconis, 09 October 2012 - 01:47 PM.


#7
Pariah Mk.231

Pariah Mk.231

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 630 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne
  • Chapter Name: Iron Warriors/Black Legion
The guys I know who would argue it that way, yeah, it's a safe call to say they're kind of pricks. :lol:
Hey, I just met you
And this is crazy
But Khorne wants skulls
Kill, maim, burn maybe?

#8
JamesI

JamesI

    ++ OBITUS CAELESTIE ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 13,350 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Albany NY
  • Chapter Name: Angels Vermillion+TSons

Yeah, I'm quite sure it was intended as a psyker-only as well. They could worded it better. But with all those clues, I think your opponent needs to be a real prick to insist on using it on a non-psyker :lol:

I see no reason a non-psyker can't take the item and gain powers, he just not gain the ability to cast those powers so it would be kind of stupid to do.

My first reaction to the scrolls was to give them to a Tzeentch lord until I read and realized it didn't give the ability to cast powers to the lord...
Posted Image

#9
Kol_Saresk

Kol_Saresk

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 11,244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Chapter Name: Night Lords
I think they mean that there will that "guy" who would slap it on a lord and insist that he be able to use the psychic powers.
Fortium Fracti
"We have received your offer of surrender and reject it; we did not come to receive your supplication but to enact judgement. The time for surrender has long passed. The verdict is writ by your own hands. Now is the time to die." Nostraman_zpsf4be09e4.pnggallery_29004_9303_9178.png

#10
King Willy

King Willy

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Chapter Name: The Traitor Kings
It's just GW having there usual mindset of everyone is reasonable and doesn't try to exploit loopholes and 'misinterpretations'

though I do like the idea of giving a lord of tzeentch a random psychic power, like a daemonic pact which constantly changes.

#11
Verythrax Draconis

Verythrax Draconis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,434 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Campinas, Brazil

Yeah, I'm quite sure it was intended as a psyker-only as well. They could worded it better. But with all those clues, I think your opponent needs to be a real prick to insist on using it on a non-psyker ;)

I see no reason a non-psyker can't take the item and gain powers, he just not gain the ability to cast those powers so it would be kind of stupid to do.

My first reaction to the scrolls was to give them to a Tzeentch lord until I read and realized it didn't give the ability to cast powers to the lord...


Ok, but I think it's just a matter of principle. We can ignore the clues of RAI and go stricly by RAW (even in that case I think the number of clues already make RAI and RAW the same, but you're free to disagree), but it bring more problems than solutions. Once we agree that a non-psyker can get this scroll, it a simple step to consider that he can cast the power as well (we can argue that there is no sense in get the power without being able to cast, so the RAI is that he can cast it, blah blah blah). So we can be almost sure that if you let it pass, you opponent ("that guy") will have more excuses on being able to cast it than he originally had on taking the scroll in the first place :P

Edited by Verythrax Draconis, 09 October 2012 - 02:05 PM.


#12
Pariah Mk.231

Pariah Mk.231

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 630 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne
  • Chapter Name: Iron Warriors/Black Legion

I think they mean that there will that "guy" who would slap it on a lord and insist that he be able to use the psychic powers.


Bingo! Though I'm also having a bit of a laugh at the fact we have a way to pay to do nothing but risk killing our own guys. At least with daemon weapons and plasma you can kill enemies while running that risk, but the scroll is 45pts of pure suicide for non-psykers.
Hey, I just met you
And this is crazy
But Khorne wants skulls
Kill, maim, burn maybe?

#13
JamesI

JamesI

    ++ OBITUS CAELESTIE ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 13,350 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Albany NY
  • Chapter Name: Angels Vermillion+TSons
I think the scroll needs to be fixed (either to allow lords to cast the powers generated or to let princes take it) because I want to use it but I can't see the risk of putting it on a 2 wound sorcerer.
Posted Image

#14
the jeske

the jeske

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 15,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pietropavlosks
does it matter ? it is ultra bad , why would anyone want to take it over the mace or ax ,or even the flamer .

Belfegor


x2 heralds of tzeench, ML3 Disks+Exalted Rewards
x2 heralds of tzeench, ML3 Disks

1x6 Screamers
3x11 Pink Horrors +18 Pink Horrors

battleforged 1499 ,24 power dice to Forge the Narrative.


#15
Iron Sage

Iron Sage

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,271 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
Could be interesting on a daemon prince on tzeentch though.

#16
the jeske

the jeske

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 15,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pietropavlosks
random psychic powers , when you want biomancy on flying MC anyway ?

Belfegor


x2 heralds of tzeench, ML3 Disks+Exalted Rewards
x2 heralds of tzeench, ML3 Disks

1x6 Screamers
3x11 Pink Horrors +18 Pink Horrors

battleforged 1499 ,24 power dice to Forge the Narrative.


#17
Pariah Mk.231

Pariah Mk.231

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 630 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne
  • Chapter Name: Iron Warriors/Black Legion

does it matter ? it is ultra bad , why would anyone want to take it over the mace or ax ,or even the flamer .


Because it doesn't replace the users weapon? Until it's FAQ'd, you could also argue that since you may replace one weapon to take an artefact, that since the scroll doesn't replace a weapon, you could take it and then replace a weapon to get the mace/axe/flamer. Not cool, I know, but as worded, arguably possible. Heck, you could even argue the same thing about taking the Key too, allowing one character to take three artefacts. I'd probably punch anyone who tried it, but what if they managed to convince a TO to let it fly?
Hey, I just met you
And this is crazy
But Khorne wants skulls
Kill, maim, burn maybe?

#18
Demoulius

Demoulius

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 6,106 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rotterdam, Hoogvliet
  • Chapter Name: Red Dragons
to be fair, I think its an easy mistake to make, thinking that you can cast it.

Why else would you gain a power? If you cant use it why do you have the option to generate the power? :P

I can see the argument from both ways here...
My blog: click me! Latest update 20th of December. 6th edition musings.
Blood angel BFG Blog: click me

a particular Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."

http://www.bolterand...9_1142_6016.png http://www.bolterand..._1792_12867.gif http://www.fortresso...Oathbreaker.jpg

#19
JamesI

JamesI

    ++ OBITUS CAELESTIE ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 13,350 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Albany NY
  • Chapter Name: Angels Vermillion+TSons

to be fair, I think its an easy mistake to make, thinking that you can cast it.

Why else would you gain a power? If you cant use it why do you have the option to generate the power? :lol:

I can see the argument from both ways here...

Its poorly worded. RAW is no ability to use the power. RAI, I don't know which they intended (Psykers only or nonpsykers become psykers)
Posted Image

#20
the jeske

the jeske

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 15,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pietropavlosks

Because it doesn't replace the users weapon?

aha and how are random powers from a random school , are better then taking 3 lvls of psykers for a DP and going biomancy and something or taking a special like tyfus or ahriman ?

the upgrade make no sense it is too random , the fact to use it you have to buy a lvl 1 psychic power for a DP or not be able to use it on a lord [RAW] , only makes it worse.

Belfegor


x2 heralds of tzeench, ML3 Disks+Exalted Rewards
x2 heralds of tzeench, ML3 Disks

1x6 Screamers
3x11 Pink Horrors +18 Pink Horrors

battleforged 1499 ,24 power dice to Forge the Narrative.


#21
King Willy

King Willy

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 421 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Chapter Name: The Traitor Kings
It's fluffy jeske, no other real reason for it that I can see.

#22
Pariah Mk.231

Pariah Mk.231

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 630 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne
  • Chapter Name: Iron Warriors/Black Legion

Because it doesn't replace the users weapon?

aha and how are random powers from a random school , are better then taking 3 lvls of psykers for a DP and going biomancy and something or taking a special like tyfus or ahriman ?

the upgrade make no sense it is too random , the fact to use it you have to buy a lvl 1 psychic power for a DP or not be able to use it on a lord [RAW] , only makes it worse.


Did I say it was good and planned on taking it? No, I'm simply pointing out that we actually were given a way to pay points for something that does nothing but potentially kill it's user if he's a non-psyker and think they need to clarify whether it makes a non-psyker a psyker or if only psykers can take it, because as it stands it can be argued either way.

I am in no way trying to defend the usefulness of they scroll, so no need to jump down my throat about "why bother taking it?". Some people might find it useful because it doesn't replace a weapon, personally I don't think it's worth the points.
Hey, I just met you
And this is crazy
But Khorne wants skulls
Kill, maim, burn maybe?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users