Inquisitor Fox Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 And at a mere 55 points more than those Inquisitors, a simple Brother Captain has the following: psychic communion AND hammerhand +1 str +1 t +2 ws +1 bs +1 i preferred enemy ATSKNF Aegis Nemesis force weapon options psyk out grenades iron halo (in fact it is impossible for an Inquisitor in this book to get an invuln save unless he's in termie armor or valeria) better grenade wargear options So tell me again how that is a bad deal for 55 points? Yes their price tag can go up based on gear, but you're also getting a MUCH better model for said price tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Which in turn leads to a "selfish" HQ that does little in the way of enabling the real force in lists further. BCs and GMs barely pass muster as combat worthy HQs, and I'm of the opinion that such HQs provide a lot less then an HQ that provides great benefit to the army as a whole. GMs are fine because they do go the extra step to help the army, even if it isn't as straightforward as divination. BCs have no such merit, hence I find them worthless. I'm going to step out of this firestorm, as I feel like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall. Play your BCs if you want, don't let me stop you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 And at a mere 55 points more than those Inquisitors, a simple Brother Captain has the following: And for a mere 25 points more you get +1WS and TGS. The point about the Inqusitors is if you're trying to save points, as you can't afford the upgrade to a GKGM. ;) Because even though I often use an OM inquisitor in TDA with a hammer, I most definitely do NOT consider him a "combat character". 5++ invul isn't good enough. And only T3 isn't good enough, either. Very easy to suffer instant death. Who really has S6 CC attacks? It's usually 4 (5 for GK) or 8+. So either he doesn't get ID'd, or the attack would also ID the GKBC. On the other hand, I would consider a CC orientated Inqusitor 'worthy'. Not the best, obviously, but then we don't really have any stand out CC characters. Edit for clarity. Bar Draigo, but he's prohibatley expensive. Drop his price somewhat and he instanlty become a ZOMG CC Beatstick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 And for a mere 25 points more you get +1WS and TGS. The point about the Inqusitors is if you're trying to save points, as you can't afford the upgrade to a GKGM. :) Perhaps, but those are also the 25 points for grenades and Nemesis Force Weapon options. That's where those things may be more useful than the Grand Strategy. Economics, overall Utils, and Opportunity Cost :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 And for a mere 25 points more you get +1WS and TGS. +1 BS, actually, which is hardly worth mentioning, the difference between BS 5 and BS 6 barely noticeable. Who really has S6 CC attacks? It's not about CC. It's about shooting defense. There are A LOT of weapons that can ID a T3 model that cannot ID a T4 model. Or do people not torrent your units on the ground? (This being your major point against the BrC for some reason.) On the other hand, I would consider a CC orientated Inqusitor 'worthy'. Not the best, obviously, but then we don't really have any stand out CC characters. Oh, I don't know. I would expect a BC to thrash a OM Inq pretty much every time. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 +1 BS, actually, which is hardly worth mentioning, the difference between BS 5 and BS 6 barely noticeable. Ah! I knew it was one of those. And actually, the difference between +1 BS or WS, is more noticable for BS than WS. It's not about CC. It's about shooting defense. There are A LOT of weapons that can ID a T3 model that cannot ID a T4 model. Or do people not torrent your units on the ground? (This being your major point against the BrC for some reason.) But sniping never happens, and the Inq gets a rerollable 2+ save, due to Lo,S! :D Oh, I don't know. I would expect a BC to thrash a OM Inq pretty much every time. For just about twice the cost, that's not surprising. Then again, if the Inq lives through the Force Weapon attacks, he'll have a good chance of IDing the BC with his hammer. /shrug I'd still rate Inqisitors as 'worthy' CC characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'd still rate Inqisitors as 'worthy' CC characters. Well, I'm willing to agree to disagree here. 5++ invul vs the large number of S6+ AP2 weaponry available doesn't make the Inquisitor qualify as "combat-ready". Any time you see characters chewing through combat, they invariably have at least one of the following two things going for them (and the best will have both): * 4++ or better invul * AP3 or better at initiative The Inquisitor has neither of those things. Every time he goes up against another "combat-worthy" character, he's usually going to depend on his invul save to keep him alive, and his toughness puts him at risk to more weapons than T4+ does on top of it. Mind you, for 80 pts, I'm not complaining. -_- But I'm also not unrealistic about his capabilities. Why don't you let me know how throwing that guy into an assault-offensive role goes, eh? ;) Beyond that, you can't deny that the BC (and GM) are simply better offensively in assault. And you also can't deny access to goofy grenades. The OM Inquisitor can't get 'em. Therefore, as I stated, there are still at least two distinctions making the BC/GM worth considering over the OM Inquisitor. They may not offer anything you want in your lists and playstyle, but that doesn't render them useless out of hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Well, I'm willing to agree to disagree here. 5++ invul vs the large number of S6+ AP2 weaponry available doesn't make the Inquisitor qualify as "combat-ready". So you have to be durable to shooting weapons to be CC ready? I really don't follow that. And you also can't deny access to goofy grenades. The OM Inquisitor can't get 'em. The others in AA can though. But then I suppose if you don't have an Invulerable save, you can't be 'CC worthy'. Kinda rules out all PGK units. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Maikel Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 The others in AA can though. But then I suppose if you don't have an Invulerable save, you can't be 'CC worthy'. Kinda rules out all PGK units. ;) Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think any of the unnamed Inquisitors could take Artificer Armour? I'm pretty sure the option is to upgrade from Carapace to Power Armour, with OM Inqs allowed to upgrade to TDA as well. That said, I agree with you when it comes to Inqs vs BC vs GM. All three I see as being Tier 2 CC critters. They're not a total beatstick like Abbadon, Mephiston, or Lysander, but they're also significantly better than the average MEQ or Sergeant character. The differences in WS and S between an inquisitor and a BC/GM are largely offset by Prescience or Force Weaponry, and with an NDH the difference in initiative doesn't matter either. Toss in the force multiplicative abilities of Grand Strategy or Prescience/Hammerhand, and I can't really see a situation where a Brother-Captain is worthwhile... he's spending 40pts and losing both a psycannon and Prescience for a slightly better statline and the option to take grenades. Just about anything worried about facing a BC in combat will also worry about facing an ML1 OM Inq in TDA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Opps! I was referencing the 'leaked' playstest 'dex. Too lazy to go upstairs to get my 'dex. ;) In the leaked PDF, they can purchase AA. Is this only PA in the actual release? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Perhaps it would be wise for us to shift the discussion towards small tactical tricks we use to achieve projection of force. I have a few of my own, but I certainly haven't thought of everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Use a GKGM for TGS to make 10 Black Templar Terminators scoring. Add a BT Chaplain with 3 Cenobytes to the Squad, and *every* time you lose a BTT, you get to run towards your opponent. Nasty! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratul29 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 But i thought since we're not battle brothers, we can't do TGS on an allied unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 Tactics up in original post. Any additional tactics you guys use/come up with will be included and credited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 But i thought since we're not battle brothers, we can't do TGS on an allied unit? TGS isn't a Psychic Power or Wargear, and isn't covered by those rules. It would have to be FAQed like Litanies of Hate, to only effect units on Codex: Grey Knights. But it (like Mad Doc's Cybork bodies) hasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 Match-up strategies vs Codex Marines, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves up. If I missed anything, let me know so I can adjust. I'd also like some input on which armies I should prioritize, as there are quite a few to write on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Less gamer slag and more plain English, please. Other than that, great work! Its filling out to be a very nice guide to GK in 6th. SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 Alright, I can do that. It's about time I went through and proofread my work anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, and Dark Eldar up. Still waiting on those suggestions/requests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Alaric Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 how bout orks? kind on the same tier as guard regarding being able to kill them all before you are worn down. i like your analysis of the different units. good show spartan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Ask, and you shall receive. Necrons and Orks up. If I missed anything or if anyone else has tricks and insights to offer, I'm all ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Alaric Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 one thing on orks that i think is a biggie. lootas. 48" range, d3 shots per turn. now the ap4 doesn't scare power armor guys, but wounding on 2s means lots of saves. i know bs2 means hitting on 5s but if the guy is power gaming and running 3 squads of 15 you're looking at a potential for 135 s7 shots coming your way. this is a problem. now, since gk are "hamstrung" (i quote because i think their mid-range is a great quality) by their effective range of 24" on infantry portable ranged weapons. we have to bring vehicles to get weapons over 24" (this of course is referring to a list that is pure gk, servitors with plasma cannons and heavy bolters reach out farther. would you suggest rifle dreads, dread knights, storm ravens, razor spam to deal with these? what's a cost effective way of dealing with them. i like the idea of a dread knight stampeding through their backfield, but am not 100% sold. thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 I'd say dreadknights are most effective vs lootas. Unlike every other option available, they can reach lootas T1 and roast them with no saves allowed, can handle a large amount of what orks throw their way (doubly true with karazamov), and can do this while maintaining local superiority thanks to torrent and it's large base. I like to shunt him into an elevated position next to the lootas, as that severely restricts what assaults orks can launch. Lootas aren't the main concern. Dakkajets are, as they can spit out loota level firepower while flying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Alaric Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 ugh i made a post to you and forgot my main point. deff rolla. basically trying to crontrol terrain lanes doesn't matter cuz with that re-roll terrain test my buddy drives through, over and on top of all the terrain we play with. now, my game i played against his battle wagon i ran a crappy list so i could flank and psycannon the side, but they are still a force to be reckoned with, especially with the 2d6 s10ap1 hits with "death or glory!" rolls lol. also, i know you explained dealing with lootas with a NDK, but how bout withOUT a NDK, cuz i'm likely to encounter them before i actually get to have the model haha thanks again spartan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Deffrollas are not AP1... don't know who's been telling you that. Vehicles can not drive through terrain they can not physically occupy, so use those bigger terrain pieces. Orks are still a very bulky army, you need to take advantage of this to chop the force up into 2 or 3 sections and deal with each seperately. Besides, it's not like the entire army can mount up in battlewagons, so terrain lanes still apply when they try to charge you (This is one of those instances where Sanctuary is god mode good). Without the NDK, things get a bit more complicated. You have to use either a Stormraven or a deep striking unit to enter danger close to the lootas and try to force enough saves to neutralize them. This is a dangerous tactic because whatever you deep strike will be at huge risk of simply being wiped off the board by a single squad of boyz. The other option is shooty henchmen, preferrably with Perfect Timing. Even this isn't that ideal as all that can usually reach them is lascannons, beamers, and OSRs. The other detractor from this option is that those henchmen usually have much more pressing targets to fire on then lootas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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