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1500pt: Was BA-IG, Now BA-SW Competitive List


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#26
CitadelArmyGuy

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I just realized that Version 1 writes better using Jump Runepriest and Grey Hunters as my scoring in back.

BA Jump Lib 125pts = SW Jump RP 125pts. Basically I get a Runeweapon, but lose the Telepathy table, FnP and FC buffs.

10 BA Tacticals 170pts = 10 SW GH w/2 PG & Banner 170pts. So what I lose is Ld9, Ability to fly in Raven, FnP/FC (maybe- Priest not really operating near them), and Combat Squadding. What I gain is pretty much understood... :(

It looks like might have written myself into a BA-SW alliance without even knowing it.....

See and now I'm thinking about dropping the Speeders to swap for MM Attack Bikes, so then I have 35pts for a Drop Pod. That way I can put one objective behind Line of Sight anywhere I'd please (instead of hoping my deployment zone has LoS blockers), then GH drop in hold that one. Yes I'm losing Speeders for Prescience but I'm gaining potential for perhaps multiplying just as many dice via GH's many forms of rolling dice. Plus, the GH PGs and the Attack Bike MMs will greatly improve my meager anti-Heavy Infantry shooting. Plus Bikes can Fix Str3 opponents for a long time (so they screen and fix, which Speeders only screen).

Just when I thought I was solid, I think of SW. LOL. That Runeweapon could really save my bacon, or just screw with opposing 'Presciencers.' I may leave the drop-pod out though and keep the Speeders. Simply trade Tacticals for GreyHunters. And of course I could take 8 GH (no gear) and Defense Line for 170pts too, which fulfills a lot of my wishlist. Now the Ld8 hurts me badly--- Ld8 fails morale check 28% of the time, but Ld9 fails morale check 17% of the time. Big jump, and important for a squad who needs to sit still on Turn5+ so they don't fall off their objective and cost me a match.

Of course I can show up with two lists. The day of, when signing in I can ask him if terrain is preset or if we will do the D3 density dance-- if he says preset, I'll go with the Defense Line List which I'll turn in to him. But if we get to set up our terrain each game then I won't need the defence line so I'll turn in the list without one.

Edited by CitadelArmyGuy, 03 November 2012 - 12:22 PM.

Active Duty United States Army, Alumni of The Citadel Military College. 6th Edition: 54 Win - 6 Tie - 5 Loss // 7th Edition: 10 Win - 0 Tie - 0 Loss

 

Nine Principles of Warfare: Objective, Offensive, Mass, Economy of Force, Maneuver, Unity of Command, Security, Surprise, Simplicity. In tabletop wargaming, 8 of 9 apply.

Military terminology: A tarpit is a Fix. A bubblewrap is a Screen. Deathstars are Shock Units. Baiting units is an Ambush. Buffing is Force Multiplication. A pre-emptive decision is a Spoiling Action. Utilizing maneuver to influence your opponent's maneuver is Diversion. Special tricks that execute in 1-2 turns are Tactics, contrasted against your over-arching approach to winning a match is Strategy.
 
I play Semi-Competitive because after being a true believer and disciple of Competitiveness for years, I personally feel that 6th Edition made a mockery of game balance... but I've never had more fun than I do now! I still play nails-hard and I play to Win, but nevermore at the expense of fun for my opponent. Play what you like, or you won't like to play


#27
CitadelArmyGuy

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double-post.

I'll just make use of the double post to update from my game last night. I playtested the following:

250: Mephiston
125: SW Runepriest- JP
90: Sanguinary Priest- JP, Axe
225: 10 Assault Marines- 2 MG, Axe
215: 10 Assault Marines- 2 MG, MB
185: 10 Grey Hunters- 2 PG, Axe, Banner
180: 3 Land Speeders- 6 HB
230: Stormraven- TLMM, TLAC, HBs


So I played the above list versus a White Scars player. He surprised me because up until now I've only seen his 'play for fun' side-- so when I told him I needed practice at a high level of play he caught me off guard with how good he is (lol). Also, his list seems very underwhelming on paper, but he has a lot of experience with it and he understands maneuver and objective extremely well. His list--

Kor'sarro Khan
Biker Command Squad- Apothecary, Champion w/Maul, 3 Lances
9 Bikes- MM Attack Bike, 1 MG, 1 PG, 1 Lance, MB
4 Scout Bikes- Mines, MB
2 Land Speeder- 3 MM, 1 Typhoon ML
1 Stormtalon- TLAC, TLHB
10 Sniper Scouts- Telion
1 Thunderfire Cannon

So in a straight-up fight, I've got him dominated obviously. To be fair to him, this is also a cut-down list from his 1750 where Telion mans a quadgun. He didn't know my list when he began to cutdown so he agonized over keeping that quadgun or not to play at 1500, and ended up dropping it (he kicked himself later for it).

The interesting thing is we got Big Guns mission (3 Obj) with Hammer&Anvil. I won roll-off for deployment zone (meaning first obj placement too), but he ended up winning first-turn decision. His reactive outflanking-flavored alphastrike list greatly prefers to go second though, so he yielded first turn to me.

The gist of the game was that it basically played out on 6'x1' --- we didn't really use any more of the board than that lol. I placed my two objectives directly against my right flank, because Fast Outflankers on the Hammer&Anvil deployment are really flexible and unpredictable. So I had to screen-off my one edge as much as possible rather than playing a center-game which is my usual tactic versus outflankers. It worked out and I got a solid win (7-1), but the whole game was very touch-and-go and I might have tied if the game hadn't ended on Turn5.

Thoughts on my list would be that I did not like the inflexibility of the GH. For this game, those 170pts simply sat on a obj and contributed nothing else to the game except helping screen the boardedge. A drop pod would have been amazing-- I think the flexibility is required, especially to complement the rest of the list.

Edited by CitadelArmyGuy, 04 November 2012 - 07:32 PM.

Active Duty United States Army, Alumni of The Citadel Military College. 6th Edition: 54 Win - 6 Tie - 5 Loss // 7th Edition: 10 Win - 0 Tie - 0 Loss

 

Nine Principles of Warfare: Objective, Offensive, Mass, Economy of Force, Maneuver, Unity of Command, Security, Surprise, Simplicity. In tabletop wargaming, 8 of 9 apply.

Military terminology: A tarpit is a Fix. A bubblewrap is a Screen. Deathstars are Shock Units. Baiting units is an Ambush. Buffing is Force Multiplication. A pre-emptive decision is a Spoiling Action. Utilizing maneuver to influence your opponent's maneuver is Diversion. Special tricks that execute in 1-2 turns are Tactics, contrasted against your over-arching approach to winning a match is Strategy.
 
I play Semi-Competitive because after being a true believer and disciple of Competitiveness for years, I personally feel that 6th Edition made a mockery of game balance... but I've never had more fun than I do now! I still play nails-hard and I play to Win, but nevermore at the expense of fun for my opponent. Play what you like, or you won't like to play


#28
CitadelArmyGuy

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So next game I play, I'll be playtesting the following:

250: Mephiston
125: SW Runepriest- JP
90: Sanguinary Priest- JP, Axe
225: 10 Assault Marines- 2 MG, Axe
210: 10 Assault Marines- 2 MG
220: 10 Grey Hunters- 2 PG, Axe, Banner, Pod
150: 3 Attack Bikes- 3 MM
230: Stormraven- TLMM, TLAC, HBs


This gives me far far more flexibility on the GH. I can control my 'stance' much better, either aggressive, defensive, reactionary or diversionary. The MM Attack Bikes are far less likely to surrender First Blood than the Speeders, although their damage output is much lower. I'm happy rolling all those dice on the Speeders, but there is simply no faults in the Attack Bikes either. Also, they will be invaluable versus Heavy Infantry if I happen to come up against that. Additionally, they still have excellent ability to gain First Blood if there is a Tank on the table. For Scouring mission they are better hands-down.

First Blood for the drop-pod is an issue I'll admit. However, anything shooting the Pod is not shooting the Lord of Death bearing down on them so I suppose I'm good with it. Also the Pod means I can get my entire army into the opponent's deployment Turn2 if I need a rush-game.

I know I said it before, but I finally feel like I've got the winner here. Playtesting seems like it will just confirm my thoughts.

Thumbs up to spartan249 for reminding me about MM Attackbikes.

Edited by CitadelArmyGuy, 04 November 2012 - 07:35 PM.

Active Duty United States Army, Alumni of The Citadel Military College. 6th Edition: 54 Win - 6 Tie - 5 Loss // 7th Edition: 10 Win - 0 Tie - 0 Loss

 

Nine Principles of Warfare: Objective, Offensive, Mass, Economy of Force, Maneuver, Unity of Command, Security, Surprise, Simplicity. In tabletop wargaming, 8 of 9 apply.

Military terminology: A tarpit is a Fix. A bubblewrap is a Screen. Deathstars are Shock Units. Baiting units is an Ambush. Buffing is Force Multiplication. A pre-emptive decision is a Spoiling Action. Utilizing maneuver to influence your opponent's maneuver is Diversion. Special tricks that execute in 1-2 turns are Tactics, contrasted against your over-arching approach to winning a match is Strategy.
 
I play Semi-Competitive because after being a true believer and disciple of Competitiveness for years, I personally feel that 6th Edition made a mockery of game balance... but I've never had more fun than I do now! I still play nails-hard and I play to Win, but nevermore at the expense of fun for my opponent. Play what you like, or you won't like to play


#29
spartan249

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Well, that list morphed from "hmm... kind of iffy" to "Yikes... I'd have some trouble with that". I wish I were joking, but Rune Priests are that annoyingly disruptive to lots of players (grr... stupid runic weapons :whoops: ). I think you'll be able to handle most lists designed for tournament play except maybe daemons, but what can you really do against them without tailoring anyway?

Edited by spartan249, 04 November 2012 - 07:54 PM.

8.jpg


QUOTE
They've got us surrounded? That simplifies the problem.

- General Lewis "Chesty" Puller, USMC

Ghost Knights, a C:GK Supplement under development.
Grey Knights in 6th Edition.

Iron Hands record: Unknown (at least 500 games thus far)
Ghost Knights record: 109W / 26D / 28L


#30
SamaNagol

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I think the Speeders offer you more than the 3 Bikes though. With the bikes you are forced to push up with them. The Speeders can go head to head with a lot of targets and simply out range them. Throwing 18 Prescience'd Heavy Bolter shots onto an MC, heavy infantry or light vehicles is going to do some damage. Sure you can double out Paladins but putting 10 wounds onto them will probably kill 2 as well. And you can basically remove 10 guard, Gaunts or Eldar a turn with them.

You have 2 Assault Marines both with Meltaguns as well for blowing up things close range if needed.

Maybe the Speeders aren't as good in a list without lots of other armoured targets like Morticon's Predator and Razor list. I dunno.

#31
spartan249

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Multi-melta attack bikes are smaller in profile, making cover hopping much easier to do. They still have 24" range, which is enough to maintain local superiority on most terrain set-ups. They can fry high value targets, which is the one thing assault marines and grey hunters have trouble with. They still have bolter shots along with the meltas.

Best defense is to not get shot at all, and attack bikers are much easier to hide from return fire.

8.jpg


QUOTE
They've got us surrounded? That simplifies the problem.

- General Lewis "Chesty" Puller, USMC

Ghost Knights, a C:GK Supplement under development.
Grey Knights in 6th Edition.

Iron Hands record: Unknown (at least 500 games thus far)
Ghost Knights record: 109W / 26D / 28L


#32
CitadelArmyGuy

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Favoring the bikes over the Speeders was a hard decision Samanagol, trust me. I came to the conclusion due to a confluence of factors.

First up, you are correct that they go much better alongside Razors and Preds. Since I had an Infantry list, it meant any Str6-8 weapons go straight for the Speeders which I found very difficult to hide in playtesting. The fact I have no other AV for either saturation OR hiding was really hurting me. Also, I needed the points for the Drop Pod on the Hunters.

When I was giving list-advice to several other BA members, I realized that Podded-GH and BA Assault Marines go together like peanut butter and jelly. It's a great combo I hadn't considered before and after theoryhammering it on other people's lists I realized it would be a great addition to mine.

I feel better and better about this list the more I think about it. Kudos to inspiration from observing lists by Samanagol, Harrower and Meatcaber.

Active Duty United States Army, Alumni of The Citadel Military College. 6th Edition: 54 Win - 6 Tie - 5 Loss // 7th Edition: 10 Win - 0 Tie - 0 Loss

 

Nine Principles of Warfare: Objective, Offensive, Mass, Economy of Force, Maneuver, Unity of Command, Security, Surprise, Simplicity. In tabletop wargaming, 8 of 9 apply.

Military terminology: A tarpit is a Fix. A bubblewrap is a Screen. Deathstars are Shock Units. Baiting units is an Ambush. Buffing is Force Multiplication. A pre-emptive decision is a Spoiling Action. Utilizing maneuver to influence your opponent's maneuver is Diversion. Special tricks that execute in 1-2 turns are Tactics, contrasted against your over-arching approach to winning a match is Strategy.
 
I play Semi-Competitive because after being a true believer and disciple of Competitiveness for years, I personally feel that 6th Edition made a mockery of game balance... but I've never had more fun than I do now! I still play nails-hard and I play to Win, but nevermore at the expense of fun for my opponent. Play what you like, or you won't like to play


#33
TheHarrower

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I REALLY like what this list morphed into. Not something I would use as I don't run allies, but there is no denying that this is solid and deadly. Grey Hunters in a Pod is a great idea as is the Rune Priest. First Blood is an issue, but I think this gives you a lot more flexibility and the risk is worth it. I do have a few suggestions:

• Drop a meltagun in each of the Assault Squads and go for a Flamer for dealing with horde.
• Go for Axe on the Rune Priest.
• Drop the Axe in the Assault Squad and add Runic Armour for the Rune Priest for the 2+ (this will leave you with 5 pts).

I'd be curious to see how this plays out. What powers were you taking with the Rune Priest?

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#34
knife&fork

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Maybe the Speeders aren't as good in a list without lots of other armoured targets like Morticon's Predator and Razor list. I dunno.


The speeders need other strong shooting in the list to be truly effective. With them he only has some jump infantry melta guns and the raven, not too impressive even at 1500. They work much better in let's say a pure wolf list where you back them up with at least 2 units of LF.

With allies and rulebook missions I see very little point in taking (or investing in, ie the priest) the normal assault squads. Better let the allied detachment handle scoring (they have better troops anyway) and concentrate on kicking face with your BA.
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#35
CitadelArmyGuy

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• Drop a meltagun in each of the Assault Squads and go for a Flamer for dealing with horde.
• Go for Axe on the Rune Priest.
• Drop the Axe in the Assault Squad and add Runic Armour for the Rune Priest for the 2+ (this will leave you with 5 pts).

I'd be curious to see how this plays out. What powers were you taking with the Rune Priest?

I'm so hesitant about Flamers for dealing with mass light infantry. The Raven can clear screens through shooting, the Bikes can fix Str3 opponents, and GH/ASM basic attacks all deal good damage to light infantry.... whereas the meltaguns provide hard-counter to things which I would have trouble with such as Heavy Armor, Heavy Infantry and Monstrous Creatures. Flamers are excellent, but they just do better what my normal attacks do anyway.

For the Runepriest, I was under the impression that the Runeweapon was an Unusual Force Weapon and hence user-Str and AP3? The fact that they always wound Daemons on 2+ makes them unusual I believe. If correct then there's no choice, just gotta go with it.

For Runepriest powers, I'd be thinking about Storm Caller and something else. Versus IG or other low-AP shooting forces, I'd want the mobile cover-save more (esp since I'm not taking defence line) than Prescience-- Prescience allows me to gain local melee dominance, and versus a Shooting Army I probably wouldn't need that? Not sure what the other power might be, but it would be something that also goes well against a low-AP shooting force in order to synergize with Storm Caller.

... I see very little point in taking (or investing in, ie the priest) the normal assault squads....

I can see your point about not investing in Assault squads. For me, they are a staple of my playstyle and I manage to fish good results out of them but on the power-scale they are certainly not impressive. For me though, the Sanguinary Priest is a must. Because Mephiston is my star player, and so putting him behind bikers or ASM gives him 5+ cover and then the Priest gives him FnP. 5+&5+ replaces his lack of a 4++. Once the decision to take a Priest is made, the decision to capitalize on the Priest's benefits by taking Assault Marines becomes much easier.

Edited by CitadelArmyGuy, 05 November 2012 - 01:58 PM.

Active Duty United States Army, Alumni of The Citadel Military College. 6th Edition: 54 Win - 6 Tie - 5 Loss // 7th Edition: 10 Win - 0 Tie - 0 Loss

 

Nine Principles of Warfare: Objective, Offensive, Mass, Economy of Force, Maneuver, Unity of Command, Security, Surprise, Simplicity. In tabletop wargaming, 8 of 9 apply.

Military terminology: A tarpit is a Fix. A bubblewrap is a Screen. Deathstars are Shock Units. Baiting units is an Ambush. Buffing is Force Multiplication. A pre-emptive decision is a Spoiling Action. Utilizing maneuver to influence your opponent's maneuver is Diversion. Special tricks that execute in 1-2 turns are Tactics, contrasted against your over-arching approach to winning a match is Strategy.
 
I play Semi-Competitive because after being a true believer and disciple of Competitiveness for years, I personally feel that 6th Edition made a mockery of game balance... but I've never had more fun than I do now! I still play nails-hard and I play to Win, but nevermore at the expense of fun for my opponent. Play what you like, or you won't like to play


#36
knife&fork

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I can see your point about not investing in Assault squads. For me, they are a staple of my playstyle and I manage to fish good results out of them but on the power-scale they are certainly not impressive. For me though, the Sanguinary Priest is a must. Because Mephiston is my star player, and so putting him behind bikers or ASM gives him 5+ cover and then the Priest gives him FnP. 5+&5+ replaces his lack of a 4++. Once the decision to take a Priest is made, the decision to capitalize on the Priest's benefits by taking Assault Marines becomes much easier.


I'm a bit of a 'all or nothing' guy so 6th has made me even more weary of taking assault squads and priest(s) :P If I absolutely feel the need for that FnP/FC bubble I would pay the extra points for an honor guard. At least if we are talking jump infantry.

If it's the list you want play, nothing wrong with that. It's just that the type of list you are going for would be better with wolves as your primary detachment. Then you could just cherry pick the sweet stuff from the BA codex. It's not like you're spamming anything BA specific anyways.
24 years of Blood Angels

#37
spartan249

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No pride in slinking over to wolves. I think the current list has everything needed to handle most archetypes and match-ups with a good chance of success. Just go with this one, I say.

8.jpg


QUOTE
They've got us surrounded? That simplifies the problem.

- General Lewis "Chesty" Puller, USMC

Ghost Knights, a C:GK Supplement under development.
Grey Knights in 6th Edition.

Iron Hands record: Unknown (at least 500 games thus far)
Ghost Knights record: 109W / 26D / 28L


#38
CitadelArmyGuy

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Ok I've gotten in 3 solid playtests with the List. I'm confident I've finally got what I want. To refresh:

250: Mephiston
125: SW Runepriest- JP
90: Sanguinary Priest- JP, Axe
225: 10 Assault Marines- 2 MG, Axe
210: 10 Assault Marines- 2 MG
220: 10 Grey Hunters- 2 PG, Axe, Banner, Pod
150: 3 Attack Bikes- 3 MM
230: Stormraven- TLMM, TLAC, HBs


So for the three playtests, I played the preceding against the following:

Crusade (3 Obj) on Vanguard deployment. I played against the following Chaos Marine List (roughly):
Slaanesh Terminator Lord w/Black Mace
5 Slaanesh Terminators- 5 LC, 5 Combimelta
10 CSM- Ubergrit, PW
10 CSM- Ubergrit, PW
10 CSM- Ubergrit, 2 PG
3 Oblits
3 Oblits
5 Havocs- 4 ML


I won 8-0 VPs. I stomped this guy, mostly because I placed 2 of 3 Objs. He just didn't have the mobility to reach my deep-pocket on Vanguard deployment, plus I threatened his own Obj on Turn 1 by throwing away my GH in Pod to contest his, forcing him to divert away from full-forward pressure. Even if he had placed 2 Objs, I feel I would have been able to fish this game out. Would have been much harder but nothing in the list feels too scary, if I handled it right. Probably would have used Mephiston to slay a CSM squad, then Fix the Terminators while the rest of my list handles things. One puzzler was his lack of Nurgle Mark on the Oblits, so Str8 melta and Bloodstrike Missiles were excellent to ID them.

Next up, I played Big Guns (5 Obj) on Dawn deployment. I played against a SW list, roughly:
Rune Priest (Divination): Rolled Prescience + Foreboding
Rune Priest (Divination): Rolled Prescience + Precognition
3 WG- 2 PF, 1 Combiplas
10 GH- 2 PG, Banner
9 GH- Flamer, Banner, Axe
8 GH- Melta, Banner, Axe
6 Long Fang- 3 ML, 2 LC
Land Raider Standard
Land Raider Redeemer
Defense Line


I won 12-3 VPs. So with Big Guns mission, pretty much his whole list was scoring-- but if there's one thing my list is not afraid of, its AV14. Turn 2 I had the MM Attack Bikes, a DoA melta-team, the Raven and Mephiston all lined up on both Land Raiders-- easily broke them both open, and both GH failed their Pinning Checks. SO that's how that game went down, not much else to say. Although I really noticed that when there's 5 Objectives on the table I feel my lack of Troops very sorely. However, in Big Guns the Raven is scoring and in Scouring the Bikes are scoring so that helps out a lot. Pretty much Crusade with 5 Objs is where I'll have trouble.

The final match was Scouring with Hammer deployment. I played off against SM-IG (roughly):
Terminator Librarian- Axe, SS (Biomancy): Rolled Warp Speed + Enfeeble
10 Tacticals- MG, MM, Combimelta, Droppod
10 Tacticals- PG, LC
10 Assault Marines- 2 Flamer, PF+LC Sarge
Thunderfire Cannon
5 Devastators- PC, 3 ML
Primaris Psyker- Axe (Biomancy): Rolled Warp Speed + Iron Arm
Platoon Command- 2 PG
30 IG- 3 Flamer, 3 Axes
Heavy Weapons Team- 3 LC


I would have won 9-3 VPs, but he conceded bottom of Turn 3. We hand-picked this mission since I have the least experience with it (literally only played it 3 times before, somehow...it just never gets rolled for me lol) Wow. What a tricky mission-- luck could place all the Obj points in your Zone or the enemy's Zone, and you don't know until just before the Sieze Initiative dice. I'm just glad I have such a mobile list, I feel I have an edge in the Scouring mission simply because I can decide wherever on the table I want to play the game. I can sieze the metaphoric-initiative or play reactively as I choose, which really suits my playstyle. So when a blob of Axe-wielding IG with double Biomancers ended up squatting on top of the '4' value Obj, I knew it might be a hard game. Plus Mephiston didn't feel like making any saves or FnP at all, so he was at 1-wound left by the end of Turn 2. In fact most of my dice was pure crap in this game, with the Raven never showing up. At all. Because even with my dice betraying the hell out of me, my opponent conceded on the bottom of Turn 3. What killed him was a risky Deep-strike with his Assault Marines which ended in their destruction. Fact is, even if those Assault Marines remained in-play I had him beat since he won roll-off but chose to go second. That allowed my mobility to pounce far forward, resulting in Turn 2 melees onto all the important players.

So all said and done, I'm really comfortable with how my list sits. The final test would be to play it against a Board-Control list such as Tervigon Tyranids or Tide-Orks. If I matched up against those, I may have trouble due to my fat 500pts of Mephiston+Stormraven. It would really boil down to the Mission we have to play. If its a 5-Obj mission where they place 3 Objs, then I'll probably lose. But versus anything else I feel I'm fairly good to go.

Edited by CitadelArmyGuy, 13 November 2012 - 05:32 AM.

Active Duty United States Army, Alumni of The Citadel Military College. 6th Edition: 54 Win - 6 Tie - 5 Loss // 7th Edition: 10 Win - 0 Tie - 0 Loss

 

Nine Principles of Warfare: Objective, Offensive, Mass, Economy of Force, Maneuver, Unity of Command, Security, Surprise, Simplicity. In tabletop wargaming, 8 of 9 apply.

Military terminology: A tarpit is a Fix. A bubblewrap is a Screen. Deathstars are Shock Units. Baiting units is an Ambush. Buffing is Force Multiplication. A pre-emptive decision is a Spoiling Action. Utilizing maneuver to influence your opponent's maneuver is Diversion. Special tricks that execute in 1-2 turns are Tactics, contrasted against your over-arching approach to winning a match is Strategy.
 
I play Semi-Competitive because after being a true believer and disciple of Competitiveness for years, I personally feel that 6th Edition made a mockery of game balance... but I've never had more fun than I do now! I still play nails-hard and I play to Win, but nevermore at the expense of fun for my opponent. Play what you like, or you won't like to play


#39
SamaNagol

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Interesting read. Do you really feel 30 marine bodies is low in scoring at 1500?

#40
CitadelArmyGuy

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Interesting read. Do you really feel 30 marine bodies is low in scoring at 1500?

Not so much 30 Marine bodies, no. What concerns me is only 3 Troops Units. Sure I can combat-squad, but then Force Multiplication gets very complicated to apply easily. I'm generally loathe to combat squad my Assault Marines, so that makes me feel stressed when I know its the 'right answer' but I just don't want to... hahaha

So in a 5 obj game, only having 3 scoring units feels so chafing. But again, its in my head. If I can just let go and realize I don't need to secure every objective-- just 3 of 5. Or hold 2 of 5 while contesting 2 more.

Scouring having 6 Objs certainly opened my eyes, since my decision to Combat-squad or not was really thrown for a loop.

Also, I'm spoiled from my IG where there's no lack of easy cheap scoring.

Active Duty United States Army, Alumni of The Citadel Military College. 6th Edition: 54 Win - 6 Tie - 5 Loss // 7th Edition: 10 Win - 0 Tie - 0 Loss

 

Nine Principles of Warfare: Objective, Offensive, Mass, Economy of Force, Maneuver, Unity of Command, Security, Surprise, Simplicity. In tabletop wargaming, 8 of 9 apply.

Military terminology: A tarpit is a Fix. A bubblewrap is a Screen. Deathstars are Shock Units. Baiting units is an Ambush. Buffing is Force Multiplication. A pre-emptive decision is a Spoiling Action. Utilizing maneuver to influence your opponent's maneuver is Diversion. Special tricks that execute in 1-2 turns are Tactics, contrasted against your over-arching approach to winning a match is Strategy.
 
I play Semi-Competitive because after being a true believer and disciple of Competitiveness for years, I personally feel that 6th Edition made a mockery of game balance... but I've never had more fun than I do now! I still play nails-hard and I play to Win, but nevermore at the expense of fun for my opponent. Play what you like, or you won't like to play


#41
SamaNagol

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Sure but in 2 out of 6 missions you have 4 scoring. Relic the volume of scoring doesn't really matter. And obviously KP it is irrelevant. I think you are just noticing a difference in forces as you said from your IG rather than it being a real problem. Especially given the resilience of your scoring units

#42
Brother Sergeant Scarus

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Interesting read. Do you really feel 30 marine bodies is low in scoring at 1500?

Not so much 30 Marine bodies, no. What concerns me is only 3 Troops Units. Sure I can combat-squad, but then Force Multiplication gets very complicated to apply easily. I'm generally loathe to combat squad my Assault Marines, so that makes me feel stressed when I know its the 'right answer' but I just don't want to... hahaha

So in a 5 obj game, only having 3 scoring units feels so chafing. But again, its in my head. If I can just let go and realize I don't need to secure every objective-- just 3 of 5. Or hold 2 of 5 while contesting 2 more.

Scouring having 6 Objs certainly opened my eyes, since my decision to Combat-squad or not was really thrown for a loop.

Also, I'm spoiled from my IG where there's no lack of easy cheap scoring.


That's quite an interesting set of test games you've got in. Like you say, maybe try and arrange a game agianst a control/horde army, possible a flyer force - and how often do you run into Death/Draigo-wing? Massed Terminators (especially TH/SS) might be a bit of a pain. I appreciate that (especially in 6th) it's virtually impossible to build for every variable, but it's always good to know which things cause you problems.

Strangely, I don't find 3 Scoring units to be insufficient. 5 Objectives might be taxing, but if you can control 2 you should be able to contest a third with your remaining squad/attack bike/Meph.

It also won't come up THAT often to be a real flaw in an otherwise efficient list - would that we all had as much cheap scoring as the Imperial Guard ;)

Hve you played against any Double-Drake lists? Dual Bale-flamers might be a bit of an issue. They clear up MEQ forces like nothing I've ever seen!
Malithos looked at his brothers in raw disbelief for a moment, before tilting his head at the First Captain. "Are you mad, Sevatar?"

"I don’t think so. I feel fine."

"How would you stop us?" asked Var Jahan.

"I’d kill you, of course. What kind of question is that? But let’s hope we don't reach that point. Emotions are running high, and my spear is all the way over there...''


#43
Calnus

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CAG, I'm really liking the list you've developed with SW allies here. I'm curious as to whether I can borrow that idea and run it up to 2000pts. I was thinking of this for a start:

Mephiston -250
Priest x1, JP & Sword -90
Furioso, Frag Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Pod - 170
ASM x10, Melta x2, Axe -225
ASM x10, Melta x2, Sword -225
2x Stormraven, TLAC, TLMM, HB sponsons -460
[SW] Rune Priest, JP, Force Axe -125
[SW] Grey Hunters x10, Plasma x2, Standard, Drop Pod -205
[SW] Grey Hunters x10, Melta x2, Drop Pod - 185? (extrapolating since I don't have SW codex)

Comes to 1935. I'd like to find another 10 points somewhere and take 5 scouts to fill out the points. I was thinking 3 pods lets you keep up pressure, gives you the ability to deploy if you like and reserve the jumpers instead. While I love having 2 Stormravens for saturation, the points start getting awfully tight, and I have to drop the attack bikes. Seeing as I have no experience with this, do you value the bikes, gunship, plasma, or pods highly enough to weight any of them higher than the others for expanding the 1500 list?

#44
CitadelArmyGuy

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CAG, I'm really liking the list you've developed with SW allies here. I'm curious as to whether I can borrow that idea and run it up to 2000pts

Calnus, that looks like a really solid start to me, to expand the list's Strategic Theme into 2k level.

Open up a new thread, and I'll help workshop it there!

Active Duty United States Army, Alumni of The Citadel Military College. 6th Edition: 54 Win - 6 Tie - 5 Loss // 7th Edition: 10 Win - 0 Tie - 0 Loss

 

Nine Principles of Warfare: Objective, Offensive, Mass, Economy of Force, Maneuver, Unity of Command, Security, Surprise, Simplicity. In tabletop wargaming, 8 of 9 apply.

Military terminology: A tarpit is a Fix. A bubblewrap is a Screen. Deathstars are Shock Units. Baiting units is an Ambush. Buffing is Force Multiplication. A pre-emptive decision is a Spoiling Action. Utilizing maneuver to influence your opponent's maneuver is Diversion. Special tricks that execute in 1-2 turns are Tactics, contrasted against your over-arching approach to winning a match is Strategy.
 
I play Semi-Competitive because after being a true believer and disciple of Competitiveness for years, I personally feel that 6th Edition made a mockery of game balance... but I've never had more fun than I do now! I still play nails-hard and I play to Win, but nevermore at the expense of fun for my opponent. Play what you like, or you won't like to play


#45
ianj253

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Glad to see your play tests went well. I just wanted to point out that, even though it's a heavy support choice, the Storm raven can't score in big guns. I wasn't aware of this until I wasn't allowed to count it as a scoring unit at a tournament about a month back. It's because you have to measure to the vehicle hull, and due to the ravens height It's not going to be within 3 inches of an objective. Here's a thread I posted about it in dakkadakka's you make the call forum http://www.dakkadakk...ist/480831.page. However, It can count for line breaker which is pretty good as it can easily zoom to your opponents deployment zone at any point in the game.

#46
knife&fork

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Glad to see your play tests went well. I just wanted to point out that, even though it's a heavy support choice, the Storm raven can't score in big guns. I wasn't aware of this until I wasn't allowed to count it as a scoring unit at a tournament about a month back. It's because you have to measure to the vehicle hull, and due to the ravens height It's not going to be within 3 inches of an objective.


You don't have to place objectives on the ground level.
24 years of Blood Angels

#47
SamaNagol

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Glad to see your play tests went well. I just wanted to point out that, even though it's a heavy support choice, the Storm raven can't score in big guns. I wasn't aware of this until I wasn't allowed to count it as a scoring unit at a tournament about a month back. It's because you have to measure to the vehicle hull, and due to the ravens height It's not going to be within 3 inches of an objective. Here's a thread I posted about it in dakkadakka's you make the call forum http://www.dakkadakk...ist/480831.page. However, It can count for line breaker which is pretty good as it can easily zoom to your opponents deployment zone at any point in the game.


I will happily model my Raven on a cut down 3" flying stand or angle its nose downwards to avoid such pettiness

#48
ianj253

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Glad to see your play tests went well. I just wanted to point out that, even though it's a heavy support choice, the Storm raven can't score in big guns. I wasn't aware of this until I wasn't allowed to count it as a scoring unit at a tournament about a month back. It's because you have to measure to the vehicle hull, and due to the ravens height It's not going to be within 3 inches of an objective.


You don't have to place objectives on the ground level.


Yes, this is true, but is entirely dependent on having a 2 or 3 story building

If you cut the ravens base be prepared to get attacked for modeling for advantage

#49
SamaNagol

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If you are willing to tell me my Heavy Support vehicle cannot score because I measure from the hull, I am more than willing to cut the flyer stand down.

You have to be a serious rules lawyering arsehole to tell someone that tbh. That's quite sad.

#50
Brother Sergeant Scarus

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Glad to see your play tests went well. I just wanted to point out that, even though it's a heavy support choice, the Storm raven can't score in big guns. I wasn't aware of this until I wasn't allowed to count it as a scoring unit at a tournament about a month back. It's because you have to measure to the vehicle hull, and due to the ravens height It's not going to be within 3 inches of an objective. Here's a thread I posted about it in dakkadakka's you make the call forum http://www.dakkadakk...ist/480831.page. However, It can count for line breaker which is pretty good as it can easily zoom to your opponents deployment zone at any point in the game.


I thought this only applied if it was zooming?

Once it enters hover mode it's a skimmer isn't it? Then don't you measure from the base?
Malithos looked at his brothers in raw disbelief for a moment, before tilting his head at the First Captain. "Are you mad, Sevatar?"

"I don’t think so. I feel fine."

"How would you stop us?" asked Var Jahan.

"I’d kill you, of course. What kind of question is that? But let’s hope we don't reach that point. Emotions are running high, and my spear is all the way over there...''