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Sisters and Astartes from the same planet


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#1
Bjorn Firewalker

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I was going over ideas for my Sisters of Battle, when I wondered why the Adepta Sororitas would set up a covent on the same planet as an Astartes Chapter's fortess-monastery, considering the animosity between the groups. (In Faith and Fire, a Sister Superior describes Space Marines as "abhumans," and there are multiple accounts of the Inquisition using the Sororitas against Astartes Chapters suspected of heresy.) Then I realized such an arrangement should be common, officially to "promote cooperation" between the groups, unofficially (but actually) to provide the Inquisition with an instantly available weapon to use, in case word is received that the Astartes Chapter is going rogue.

That means the Inquisition is likely to set up Orders Militant convents on Ultramar (and Medusa, and Nocturne, and any other planet with a fortress-monastery) to keep an eye on the Astartes. Despite this being their true reason for being, the fact both groups are likely to recruit from the same population, means they're likely to share cultural traits. I wouldn't be surprised to see an inverted Omega on the coat of arms of an Order from Ultramar. (However, Sisters on Fenris and other feral worlds, are likely immigrants or transfers, due to the planets' natives' unfamiliarity with technology. That means no wolves on a Fenrisian Order's coat of arms.) Does this make sense, according to canon?

Wolf Scout- Catachan barking toad eggs+ Thousand Sons Marine= Fun! (Wolves of Catachan)
Sisters of Battle+ Fenrisian Beer- Inhibitions- Sanity= Trouble! (Order of the Blazing Heart Rocket Punch Pimp Magnet She-Wolf)

 

Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

 

Reasons to use the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think the Librarian Dreadnought needs Furious Charge AND It Will Not Die to beat down a Chaos-worshiping punk and his Defiler, while a Stormraven needs a Vanquisher cannon to beat down this punk's Heldrake.


#2
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

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That line of logic could certainly be used to justify a force of SoB and Marines sharing heraldry/homeworld, but it could also be argued that the Emperor-granted sovereignty of the marines would allow them to prevent it being forced on them. If the Ultramarines/Wolves/etc didn't want that Order installed on their world, they'd probably be willing to fight for it.

The animosity shown in Faith&Fire isn't necessarily common among all Orders; the marines were designed by the emp, whom the SoB venerate, so others might see marines as blessed.

Which chapter were you thinking of installing an Order with in this manner?

#3
CommissarHarris

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How about:
- A Fleet Based Space Marines Chapter with close ties to a tithe world with a Sororitas Monastery on it
- A Feral world where a space Marine Chapter recruits from, which is also on a Pilgrim Route for a Sector saint. There is a Monastery on the Orbiting Moon, protecting the Pilgrim sites on the Planet.
- A Mechanicus Explorator fleet, with a Fleet based Chapter and a Missionarius Galaxia mission along for the Ride. A Sort of GrimDark Star Trek
- A Convent which has built up around an Emperor Bothering Space Marine Chapter on a Civilised world, where they are venerated as Living Symbols of His Divine Will.
- A Convent which the echeliasrchy has managed to shoehorn into the system where a Chapter of questionable loyalty is based. They are there to watch them and provide first response should the abhumans turn.

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#4
Bjorn Firewalker

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Which chapter were you thinking of installing an Order with in this manner?

The Catachan Wolves, a Chapter whose founding I detailed in this story.

Wolf Scout- Catachan barking toad eggs+ Thousand Sons Marine= Fun! (Wolves of Catachan)
Sisters of Battle+ Fenrisian Beer- Inhibitions- Sanity= Trouble! (Order of the Blazing Heart Rocket Punch Pimp Magnet She-Wolf)

 

Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

 

Reasons to use the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think the Librarian Dreadnought needs Furious Charge AND It Will Not Die to beat down a Chaos-worshiping punk and his Defiler, while a Stormraven needs a Vanquisher cannon to beat down this punk's Heldrake.


#5
Hymirl

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A space marine home world is generally under thier rule in some fashion or other, undoubtedly the church would have a presence but and armed enclave with sufficient strength to knock out their fortress would probably be considered a bit aggressive and likely to cause offense.

Besides if a chapter were to go rogue they'd probably plan ahead and blast the convent with their fleet assets... Or something.

Do they have to live together? Can't they just be colleagues? Either both armies fight side by side in the same crusade force, or sisters forming the first line of defense as a world is invaded and the marines arrive as cavalry, they're like "we'll handle it" but get in trouble and the sisters pull them out and valuable life lessons are gained by all etc :)

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#6
Bjorn Firewalker

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That line of logic could certainly be used to justify a force of SoB and Marines sharing heraldry/homeworld, but it could also be argued that the Emperor-granted sovereignty of the marines would allow them to prevent it being forced on them. If the Ultramarines/Wolves/etc didn't want that Order installed on their world, they'd probably be willing to fight for it.

I can imagine an Inquisitor claiming a Chapter's (nonviolent) opposition to having a Sororitas covent on their Chapter home world, as evidence the Chapter plans to commit heresy or go rogue.

Do they have to live together?

My idea is to have Catachan as the home world of an Order Militant of the Adepta Sororitas, specifically, my Americanized parody of the Sisters of Battle (Order of the Blazing Heart Rocket Punch Pimp Magnet She-Wolf). Since I already plan to make Catachan a Chapter's main source of recruits (NOT where the fortress-monastery is- that's on a barren planet in the same system, one where the Marines don't have to worry about roots and vines tearing down the walls), I wanted to justify WHY the planet's so crowded.

Besides, a planet with Earth-like gravity is a big place. There should be plenty of room for all three groups.

Edited by Bjorn Firewalker, 25 November 2012 - 05:38 PM.

Wolf Scout- Catachan barking toad eggs+ Thousand Sons Marine= Fun! (Wolves of Catachan)
Sisters of Battle+ Fenrisian Beer- Inhibitions- Sanity= Trouble! (Order of the Blazing Heart Rocket Punch Pimp Magnet She-Wolf)

 

Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

 

Reasons to use the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think the Librarian Dreadnought needs Furious Charge AND It Will Not Die to beat down a Chaos-worshiping punk and his Defiler, while a Stormraven needs a Vanquisher cannon to beat down this punk's Heldrake.


#7
*Furyou Miko

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Apart from objecting to your Order's whole concept and name on a stick-in-the-mud fluff nazi basis, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
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#8
Azatoth

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I am not 100% sure, but I think the SW for one don't allow the Imperial Cult on Fenris.
There is no doubt that both groups would work together for the protection/betterment of the Imperium, but the simple fact that most SM charters do not ride the "The Emperor is a God" wagon basically sets them up are barely tolerable to the church and with that to the AS too.

On the other side I have wondered for years, what would happen if a female fenrisian warriormaid climbs the Fang? I really would like to see a fenrisian Valkyrie "counts as AS" force on a table. :teehee:

I also really like the Wolf and Sister comic and the Daughter of Russ

They would never lack for fire on cold Fenris!

Edited by Azatoth, 25 November 2012 - 08:41 PM.


#9
Bjorn Firewalker

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I am not 100% sure, but I think the SW for one don't allow the Imperial Cult on Fenris.
There is no doubt that both groups would work together for the protection/betterment of the Imperium, but the simple fact that most SM charters do not ride the "The Emperor is a God" wagon basically sets them up are barely tolerable to the church and with that to the AS too.

As noted, I believe Sisters immigrate or are transferred to Fenris and other feral worlds, NOT recruited from native colonists. The Island of the Iron Masters is one place to establish the Imperial Cult, the Sisters recruiting from the children of menial workers (who are AdMech serfs, and NOT considered to be native Fenrisians).

Wolf Scout- Catachan barking toad eggs+ Thousand Sons Marine= Fun! (Wolves of Catachan)
Sisters of Battle+ Fenrisian Beer- Inhibitions- Sanity= Trouble! (Order of the Blazing Heart Rocket Punch Pimp Magnet She-Wolf)

 

Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

 

Reasons to use the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think the Librarian Dreadnought needs Furious Charge AND It Will Not Die to beat down a Chaos-worshiping punk and his Defiler, while a Stormraven needs a Vanquisher cannon to beat down this punk's Heldrake.


#10
Jacinda

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I think we have a few misconceptions here. With the new codex, the ties with the Inquisition are no longer there. The Adepta Sororitas will work with the Inquisition form time to time but they are not under Inquisitorial control. This is back to how they were originally pre-Codex: Witch Hunter.

I don't see any animosity between Sororitas and Astartes. Rivalry maybe, but no animosity. One might think the acceptance of the Emperor as a divine entity would be a point of contention but it really is not. I don't know the mind of the marines and I am certain it is different depending on each primarch, but as far as an average Sister goes they see the Space Marines as creations of the Emperor and if the Emperor does not want them to see him as divine then it is not for the Sisters to question his will.

As far as being on the same planet, this is entirely possible and reasonable without needing the Inquisition to be planting spies. While Astartes and Sororitas have common goals they have entirely separate agendas. Space Marines will be based on a planet as a military objective, recruiting or ensuring supply chains continue without disruption. Sororitas will be based on a planet -- possibly the same planet -- purely for theological reasons. Possibly an Honor guard for a high ranking Ecclesiarch or maintaining a shrine built over a few square meters of land that once held the footprint of the Emperor. In other words, Marines are there to make sure the war machine runs smoothly; Sisters are there to ensure the populace knows their place in the machine.

And then there are all the non-militant Orders such as the Dialogus or Hospitlars who may well be working and training right along side Astartes C&C and logistics at any given base.

This should be enough to give you a planet with both sisters and Marines stationed together ot at least in close proximity. If it is a shrine world with a small mission I see no reason why local heleraldry would not find its way into the iconography of the forces stationed there. If you had a dozen or so Sisters keeping a shrine on Ultramar it would make sense to see a flur emblazoned over a stylized U.

And finally, Sisters of Battle do not recruit. Not in the since that you seem to think and not like a Space Marine chapter would. You would need to be the orphan of an Imperial officer with some rank just to be accepted into the Schola Progenium. Menial workers outside of the Ecclesiarchy have as much chance at joining the Adepta Sororitas as I do of becoming Queen. That is, it is not impossible but the odds of it happening are staggering. Still ... fate is kind of funny at times and Harry is still single ... If you need it to happen to get your Canoness in your story there is not going to be much resistance to it. A full Order recruiting the children of serfs is just not going to happen.

#11
Bjorn Firewalker

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I think we have a few misconceptions here. With the new codex, the ties with the Inquisition are no longer there. The Adepta Sororitas will work with the Inquisition form time to time but they are not under Inquisitorial control. This is back to how they were originally pre-Codex: Witch Hunter.

Thank you, Jacinda. I was unaware of this (I have Codex: Witch Hunters, but the White Dwarf issues with the Sisters' new Codex were sold out by the time I learned of them).

And finally, Sisters of Battle do not recruit. Not in the since that you seem to think and not like a Space Marine chapter would. You would need to be the orphan of an Imperial officer with some rank just to be accepted into the Schola Progenium. Menial workers outside of the Ecclesiarchy have as much chance at joining the Adepta Sororitas as I do of becoming Queen. That is, it is not impossible but the odds of it happening are staggering. Still ... fate is kind of funny at times and Harry is still single ... If you need it to happen to get your Canoness in your story there is not going to be much resistance to it. A full Order recruiting the children of serfs is just not going to happen.

I thought the Adepta Sororitas gained new members the same day a modern day (21st century) convent did, i.e., by welcoming the religiously devout who want to serve the Church for life. I know the Adepta Sororitas "recruits" outside of the Schola Progenium- the Shira Calpurnia novels describe a nobleman protesting his daughter's decision to join an Order- but is membership de jure or de facto restricted to the aristocracy on most Imperial worlds?

Wolf Scout- Catachan barking toad eggs+ Thousand Sons Marine= Fun! (Wolves of Catachan)
Sisters of Battle+ Fenrisian Beer- Inhibitions- Sanity= Trouble! (Order of the Blazing Heart Rocket Punch Pimp Magnet She-Wolf)

 

Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

 

Reasons to use the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think the Librarian Dreadnought needs Furious Charge AND It Will Not Die to beat down a Chaos-worshiping punk and his Defiler, while a Stormraven needs a Vanquisher cannon to beat down this punk's Heldrake.


#12
Hymirl

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Given that your sisters have a comedy name, and your chapter fluff is pretty much at odds with established background of Catachan's proud IG traditions I don't see why you need to be that concerned... :tu:

And as Jacinda says, sisters of battle are orphans of imperial servants of some kind or other, raises in ultra Puritan military boarding schools. The boys get to be storm troopers and commissars, the girls get to join the sisterhood (potentially, there are other routes available to both like the arbites, and being a priest for example but these aren't exclusive to the scholar).

So I don't think they're even going to be super best friends forever, but a mutual respect and cooperation of elite fighting forces would be a natural conclusion.

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#13
Jacinda

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I thought the Adepta Sororitas gained new members the same day a modern day (21st century) convent did, i.e., by welcoming the religiously devout who want to serve the Church for life. I know the Adepta Sororitas "recruits" outside of the Schola Progenium- the Shira Calpurnia novels describe a nobleman protesting his daughter's decision to join an Order- but is membership de jure or de facto restricted to the aristocracy on most Imperial worlds?

A big part of a good story is breaking the rules. Following the rules all the time is just so bland. But we have to know the rules so we know how to break them :tu:
There are several Orders with in the Adepta Sororitas and they all need women to fill jobs. No one cares about those Sisters who join the Diologus and spend there life translating ancient books in a library. That is until she is captured and has to learn to fight with xenos weapons in order to free herself and her sisters from a dark eldar pain camp.

Schola Progemium is where 90%(my own estimate) of the Adepta Sororitas come from and 99.9% of the Sisters of Battle. As far as I know, the Progena are universally orphans of officers of the Imperial Guard or some similar ranking member of the Ecclesiarchy. So barring some grandios happening -- being declared the reincarnation of Saint Sabat or some such -- membership is pretty much limited to children of church aristocracy only.

Like I said, a good story is all about how you break those rules. But it is a lot easier to work in the lone exception who then rises to lead a Mission's Order than it is to explain how a company sized Order Militant has fallen through the cracks.

Edited by Jacinda, 25 November 2012 - 11:55 PM.


#14
MadDoc

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So barring some grandios happening -- being declared the reincarnation of Saint Sabat or some such -- membership is pretty much limited to children of church aristocracy only.

The Sororitas recruit any suitable candidate they find, the Scholar Progenium just happens to be a ready source of pre-conditioned and partially trained candidates, already heavily indoctrinated into the Imperial cult.

Progenium students are the orphaned offspring of Imperial Officers that have given their lives in duty to the Emperor, they are not exclusive church aristocracy (in fact I would go so far as to suggest that few if any of them are), and the candidates the Sororitas take could be the daughters of Imperial Guard Colonels, Imperial Navy Admirals or even lowly Imperial Guard line officers (who have made a worthy sacrifice).

I have seen nothing to suggest that they are drawn from the offspring of church aristocracy, even preferentially, all worthy candidates are equal in the eyes of the Emperor :) (remember the Adepta Sororitas are a dour and markedly penitent lot, any rank/standing they had prior to entering one of the Orders would mean nothing after entering).

The roleplaying books Dark Heresy: The Inquisitor's Handbook and Dark Heresy: Blood of Martyrs from Fantasy Flight Games have some excellent expanded background for the Sororitas (including info about recruitment/induction/ascension and day-to-day rites and rituals) and are a must read if you can get access to them. I suspect they would probably be of help to the OP in getting a better idea of how to go about properly fleshing out/developing his idea as well...
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#15
Jacinda

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I have seen nothing to suggest that they are drawn from the offspring of church aristocracy,

Who runs the Schola Progenium?
Are officers aristocrates or serfs?

1+1 = ?

#16
MadDoc

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Who runs the Schola Progenium?

The Ministorum.

Are officers aristocrates or serfs?

A mixture of non-church aristocracy and a rare few that have earned their rank/position/privilege based on merit.

1+1 = ?

2.

But Apple + Orange does not equal Catfish...

The church being in charge of administrating the Scholar Progenium does not equate to their students being the offspring of church aristocrats. That is faulty reasoning. Especially given that most of their students are shown to be the orphaned offspring of ranking Guard, Navy and Administratum officials (of which only the Administratum could really be considered an actual part of the church, and even then only barely) or the orphaned children of some other Imperial worthy who did enough in life to earn the honour.
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#17
*Furyou Miko

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The Schola Progenium, sadly, has conflicting fluff.

One set of fluff (we shall call it "Abnett-Mitchell", although Abnett does use the other version as well) states that the Scholae exists to take in Imperial war-orphans, with every named Schola graduate having come from Officer parentage.

The other set of fluff (which we shall call "Generic 40k") states that 'Schola Progenium' is the catch-all term for all Ecclesiarchy-run orphanages.

Another misconception is that all Schola brats go into the Commissariat, the Stormtroopers or the Adepta Sororitas. It's been stated in several places that the majority of Schola graduates actually go into the Adeptus Terra, and that only those who show leadership or combat aptitude are selected for the C/S/AS courses.

This does, however, mean that in any given Administratum office, 10-50% of all clerks present will have had low-level combat training of one kind or another, probably on par with the average Imperial Guardsman.
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

There is no knowledge
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Power corrupts.
Ignorance is Innocence.

Just call me Miko.
Sisters in 7th: W2 L0 D0

Tzeentch: Change you can believe in.


#18
Jacinda

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Who runs the Schola Progenium?

The Ministorum.

The Schola is an organization under the Ecclesiarchy.

The Schola Progenium are schools run by Missionaries of the Ecclesiarchy. These schools teach and train orphans of Imperial officials who have given their lives in the service of the Emperor. Orphans are educated by the Missionaries and receive a strong Imperial cult upbringing, and soon learn to regard the Emperor as their spiritual father. Graduates of the Schola are known as Progena, and because of the loyalty their training has instilled in them, graduates are sent for further training and service within another Imperial organization, often becoming Storm Troopers and Commissars in the Imperial Guard, Imperial assassins, and Inquisitors. Many girls join one of the Orders of the Adepta Sororitas.

References cited are Games Workshop publications only. Third party fluff and games other than 40K may be different from GW's canon.

However I think this whole debate is moot. I did not realize Bjorn was making a humorous Order. If it is not serious, who cares about the fulff? Just tap another keg and it will all make sense before morning ;)

Edited by Jacinda, 27 November 2012 - 01:59 AM.


#19
*Furyou Miko

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Uh, Jaci? Adeptus Ministorum is another name for Ecclesiarchy.
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There is no knowledge
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Power corrupts.
Ignorance is Innocence.

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#20
derpasaurus

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But Apple + Orange does not equal Catfish...

you mean i've been doing math wrong all these years?
D:
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#21
Jacinda

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Uh, Jaci? Adeptus Ministorum is another name for Ecclesiarchy.

I missed this ...

Yeah, I was just adjusting the spin.

#22
*Furyou Miko

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Ah, right.
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

There is no knowledge
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Power corrupts.
Ignorance is Innocence.

Just call me Miko.
Sisters in 7th: W2 L0 D0

Tzeentch: Change you can believe in.