The Guilliman Heresy

[Olis]

*snip*

 

In fairness, this is a team effort. We've all been kicking the ball towards the goal together. I'd be pointing to Conn for this one if I had to single anyone out. ;)

 

Anyhoo, the Timeline has been edited again, with the inclusion of the Interex, Dwell, the Laer, our versions of the MkV and MkVI power armour, and others. I have also replaced the old Legion loyalty spreadsheet image with a new one (which I'm almost certain I will update again at some point because I didn't put in all the info I wanted to).

 

Any thoughts or comments would be much appreciated.

[Olis]

Callooh callay, the Schadenhold (not 'Scaffenhold' as I had erroneously called it five years ago) portion of the timeline has been actually written! Finally! Passages involving the Olemic Quietude and Kangba Marwu have also been added. 

 

Some feedback would be nice...

 

Edit! Yeah... We may need to rethink our 'Maze of Blood' thing, thanks to the War of the Beast series. Turns out that Armageddon has got a secret past... 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Olis

[Conn Eremon]

Ah, but can you imagine the Red Angels venting wrath and fury upon each other at the site of the Emperor's triumph?

[Olis]

I do indeed. I think a minor edit (name change) might work. Not sure.

[Conn Eremon]

If we put it at Ullanor, then greater edits will need to be made.

[Olis]

Quick idea... if they go to Ullanor...a climactic fight at the Triumph would be kinda cool... Y'know, the building where all the Primarchs are stood in the artwork:

 

 

Plus... they've both been there before at the actual ceremony...

[GuillimanHeretic]

I've a question about Aquila armor. Does the Aquila suit get used during the Heresy as what we know in canon as MkVII armor, unmodified? Or is it put on hold by the events of the Heresy and replaced with Heresy armor as a stopgap? When I start collecting Sons of Horus, what armor marks should I use to make it a GH-era army? Also, are studded shoulderpads still a thing on Corvus suits?

[Olis]

I've a question about Aquila armor. Does the Aquila suit get used during the Heresy as what we know in canon as MkVII armor, unmodified? Or is it put on hold by the events of the Heresy and replaced with Heresy armor as a stopgap? When I start collecting Sons of Horus, what armor marks should I use to make it a GH-era army? Also, are studded shoulderpads still a thing on Corvus suits?

 

Well... this, at the moment, is a detail I've put in without consultation. Spur of the moment thing. So, it could very well be the case that things might change drastically, depending on the feedback I get from Conn. Studded shoulder pads were a product of the Heresy in canon, a cheap but roughly equivalent pad to the more established versions which had smooth faces. I'd say that if they are Heresy era, in canon or the GH 'verse, then studding would work.

 

Regardless, the way I see it, devolved or bastardised versions of the MkV and MkVI could be in service quite easily, though the main issue may be the neutrality of the Mechanicum. A possibility to circumvent that roadblock would be to press the Technocracy (and possibly the Quietude) into service as production centres, along with other industry-heavy worlds. 

 

For your Sons of Horus, if what I have written gets the green light, then you would likely see a majority of MkV Corvus with a smattering of MkVI Aquila. Older marks can interspersed for the sake of variety. ^_^

[GuillimanHeretic]

Hmm.... well the plan was to start by using plastic MkIVs for old times' sake, when I finally don't have anything else left to build or paint. With plenty of MkV and MkVI from Forgeworld since I'm such a Beaky lover. So as many "Rogue Trader" squads as possible. One of the Sons is going to use the now-sold-out Master of Relics, probably converted into a Sergeant or Captain. Garviel Loken and Abaddon are probably going to be used to make a Horus Aximand model, either in power or Terminator armor. Or both so I can pick and choose. Aximand's torso looks remarkably similar to Loken's. So I'm gonna use that.

 

Maybe I could use some Aquila chests left over from past tactical squads...? There's a Raptor torso that I particularly like. If it's still on Ebay I could do a full assault squad or something.

 

I know about the Technocracy, and what happens with them. But I've never heard of the Quietude before. What happens to them? In canon it sounds like the Space Wolves take care of wiping them out, and they might be a bizarre post-human remnant of the Dark Age of Technology. Is it any different here?

 

I think with the tired old MkVII armor that's been the posterchild for canon Space Marines since the early 90's, we should make sure it's lost and forgotten pretty quickly, and replaced with MkVIII pretty soon after. Or the loyalist Legions go back to whichever armor maks suit them the best, and make their own modifications and improvements. I'm not sure who would use Aquila suits the most, and hold onto them. I think probably Emperor's Children. The look a lot of canon Marines have of MkVII suits with beaky helmets would suit EC particularly well. Perhaps a modified Corvus suit with Aquilas and extra chest plating, etc.

 

With the Mars-Terra conflict and the Mechanicus splintering apart and going their separate ways, they could take a LOT of Aquila armor with them. So the traitor Legions and White Scars get an upgrade. Much like the classic Chaos Space Marines in MkVI/MkVII armor hybrids that they either salvaged from modern day loyalists, or are probably going to be retconned by the likes of Plague Marines in MkIII armor, Noise Marines in MkIV etc.

 

Maybe Aquila suits could end up ironically associated with traitors more than loyalists...? Especially if the Imperial Fists already wear it during the Heresy.... they'd naturally be the first to try it out.

Edited August 15, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Olis]

Hmm.... well the plan was to start by using plastic MkIVs for old times' sake, when I finally don't have anything else left to build or paint. With plenty of MkV and MkVI from Forgeworld since I'm such a Beaky lover. So as many "Rogue Trader" squads as possible. One of the Sons is going to use the now-sold-out Master of Relics, probably converted into a Sergeant or Captain. Garviel Loken and Abaddon are probably going to be used to make a Horus Aximand model, either in power or Terminator armor. Or both so I can pick and choose. Aximand's power armor looks remarkably similar to Loken's. So I'm gonna use that.

 

Maybe I could use some Aquila chests left over from past tactical squads...? There's a Raptor torso that I particularly like. If it's still on Ebay I could do a full assault squad or something.

 

Use whatever you like brother. It can always be justified somehow, much like in canon. 

 

Also, all of your links lead back to this page...

 

Nevermind, you've fixed the links as I was writing this. ^_^

 

I know about the Technocracy, and what happens with them. But I've never heard of the Quietude before. What happens to them? In canon it sounds like the Space Wolves take care of wiping them out, and they might be a bizarre post-human remnant of the Dark Age of Technology. Is it any different here?

They were a technologically advanced society that was hostile to the Imperium in canon. The Space Wolves indeed wiped them out. I took the liberty of including them in the timeline but stopping short of annihilating them (unlike the Interex, who were always going to be stomped on, unfortunately). 

 

I think with the tired old MkVII armor that's been the posterchild for canon Space Marines since the early 90's, we should make sure it's lost and forgotten pretty quickly, and replaced with MkVIII pretty soon after. Or the loyalist Legions go back to whichever armor maks suit them the best, and make their own modifications and improvements. I'm not sure who would use Aquila suits the most, and hold onto them. I think probably Emperor's Children. The look a lot of canon Marines have of MkVII suits with beaky helmets would suit EC particularly well. Perhaps a modified Corvus suit with Aquilas and extra chest plating, etc.

 

I had thought about that. Keeping our MkVI as the standard armour mark for years to come is not something I intend to do. Our Imperium won't display the lack of innovation that the canon Imperium does. We have a variety of alternative armour marks from waaay back in the early days of the project, so cannibalising any of the ideas from there would be very easy.

 

With the Mars-Terra conflict and the Mechanicus splintering apart and going their separate ways, they could take a LOT of Aquila armor with them. So the traitor Legions and White Scars get an upgrade. Much like the classic Chaos Space Marines in MkVI/MkVII armor hybrids that they either salvaged from modern day loyalists, or are probably going to be retconned by the likes of Plague Marines in MkIII armor, Noise Marines in MkIV etc.

 

Maybe Aquila suits could end up ironically associated with traitors more than loyalists...? Especially if the Imperial Fists already wear it during the Heresy.... they'd naturally be the first to try it out.

 

As is currently written, the Dark Angels and the Sons of Horus field test the MkVI, so it's already found it's way into traitor hands from the beginning. Now, if I replace the Sons of Horus with the Iron Hands, then it could very well be a defining feature of traitorous elements in the aftermath of these wars... 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Olis

[GuillimanHeretic]

 

Use whatever you like brother. It can always be justified somehow, much like in canon. 

 

Also, all of your links lead back to this page...

 

 

Nevermind, you've fixed the links as I was writing this.

 

 

I'm still figuring out how to edit posts and make hyperlinks on this site, it always takes a while to get the hang of it ^^; I just typed out a whole reply to everything but it didn't post properly for some reason, and all that typing was wasted. I'll have to try and remember what I said....

 

They were a technologically advanced society that was hostile to the Imperium in canon. The Space Wolves indeed wiped them out. I took the liberty of including them in the timeline but stopping short of annihilating them (unlike the Interex, who were always going to be stomped on, unfortunately). 

 

 

 

With the canon Auretians being able to produce and wear their own power armor, what would their version of the Skitarii be like? Would they be mini-Space Marines or something different?

 

 

I had thought about that. Keeping our MkVI as the standard armour mark for years to come is not something I intend to do. Our Imperium won't display the lack of innovation that the canon Imperium does. We have a variety of alternative armour marks from waaay back in the early days of the project, so cannibalising any of the ideas from there would be very easy.

 

How long would it take for Errant armor to start production? Obviously not ten thousand years, but which Legions would use it the most? I think I remember something about Dusk Raiders having "Bastion" power armor that resembled MkVIII.

 

 

As is currently written, the Dark Angels and the Sons of Horus field test the MkVI, so it's already found it's way into traitor hands from the beginning. Now, if I replace the Sons of Horus with the Iron Hands, then it could very well be a defining feature of traitorous elements in the aftermath of these wars... 

 

 

 

What would the Fists have during the Heresy? MkV, or something else?

 

By the sounds of it, the Guilliman Heresy is going to end up being very reminiscient of earlier versions of the Horus Heresy, where Corvus armor is the standard across most Legions, and there are a lot more visual hints towards familiar things from 40k.

Edited August 15, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Olis]

 

They were a technologically advanced society that was hostile to the Imperium in canon. The Space Wolves indeed wiped them out. I took the liberty of including them in the timeline but stopping short of annihilating them (unlike the Interex, who were always going to be stomped on, unfortunately). 

 

With the canon Auretians being able to produce and wear their own power armor, what would their version of the Skitarii be like? Would they be mini-Space Marines or something different?

 

 

We haven't really discussed skitarii analogues yet. The thing is, the Technocracy would not be a sovereign entity in the Imperium. It is a part of the Imperium, yes, but not it's own domain. Or, at least, that's not how I'm currently imagining it. As with any Imperial agency, they'd have their own troops. Perhaps the Technocracy would employ a standing army that uses power armour, though what they'd be called would remain to be seen. They'd be quite unlike the skitarii, I think.

 

 

I had thought about that. Keeping our MkVI as the standard armour mark for years to come is not something I intend to do. Our Imperium won't display the lack of innovation that the canon Imperium does. We have a variety of alternative armour marks from waaay back in the early days of the project, so cannibalising any of the ideas from there would be very easy.

 

How long would it take for Errant armor to start production? Obviously not ten thousand years, but which Legions would use it the most? I think I remember something about Dusk Raiders having "Bastion" power armor that resembled MkVIII.

 

Errant armour... I'm not sure that there would even be Errant armour (it's still debatable as to whether we actually have Aquila armour, even though I've put it in the timeline). I'm not really in favour of having any because our universe changes so much between the Heresy and the 42nd millennium...

 

But, yes, if we go back and cannibalise my old PA ideas, 'Bastion' armour could be a thing.

 

 

As is currently written, the Dark Angels and the Sons of Horus field test the MkVI, so it's already found it's way into traitor hands from the beginning. Now, if I replace the Sons of Horus with the Iron Hands, then it could very well be a defining feature of traitorous elements in the aftermath of these wars...

 

What would the Fists have during the Heresy? MkV, or something else?

 

By the sounds of it, the Guilliman Heresy is going to end up being very reminiscient of earlier versions of the Horus Heresy, where Corvus armor is the standard across most Legions, and there are a lot more visual hints towards familiar things from 40k.

Our MkV and some lingering examples of older PA, probably.

 

And yeah, it seems that our particular Heresy could indeed have a RT vibe to it, what with Corvus armour being the dominant mark.

[GuillimanHeretic]

Please let this work...

 

 

We haven't really discussed skitarii analogues yet. The thing is, the Technocracy would not be a sovereign entity in the Imperium. It is a part of the Imperium, yes, but not it's own domain. Or, at least, that's not how I'm currently imagining it. As with any Imperial agency, they'd have their own troops. Perhaps the Technocracy would employ a standing army that uses power armour, though what they'd be called would remain to be seen. They'd be quite unlike the skitarii, I think.

 

 

I see.... I don't think they should have fully developed Space Marines of their own, apart from not having the Emperor's skill at genetic engineering, if they have a militant wing wearing powered armor, it should be more unique and different. The canon Imperium has Stormtroopers, Kasyrkin and Militarum Tempestus Scions. So something more along those lines, still human-sized, but with better armor and weapons. Maybe like the Scions they could be expert Marine killers, too. Outgunning them in the field of battle.

 

 

 

Errant armour... I'm not sure that there would even be Errant armour (it's still debatable as to whether we actually have Aquila armour, even though I've put it in the timeline). I'm not really in favour of having any because our universe changes so much between the Heresy and the 42nd millennium...

 

 

But, yes, if we go back and cannibalise my old PA ideas, 'Bastion' armour could be a thing.

 

 

 

Hmm.... the raised collar look of Errant armor is iconic, so it's hard not to want to do something with it. It may be a coincidence in canon, but the name tempts me to use it on later generations of Malcador's Knights-Errant,* as an exclusive type of armor. But it does suit Death Guard/Dusk Raiders pretty well.

 

*In my version, you don't have to do that if you don't want to ^^;;

 

Our MkV and some lingering examples of older PA, probably.

 

And yeah, it seems that our particular Heresy could indeed have a RT vibe to it, what with Corvus armour being the dominant mark.

 

 

I think MkIII suits the Fists pretty well, especially their role as implacable servants of Nurgle. They seem to wear a lot of it in canon, so their veterans at least would still have it. But with Corvus armor... Nurglizing it could work, if you take it more in the direction of Imperial Space Marines. More tubing, especially one going outwards from the end of the "beak" like a gas mask/rebreather device, and possibly portruding into an area of exposed flesh or something.

 

What about Imperial Heralds? Since they're the daemonhunters of the Legiones Astartes, the obvious thing would be to give them something like Aegis armor the GK wear. But is there any way we can make it less obvious and more interesting than that? I imagine them being somewhat like the Exorcists, with sigils and arcane symbols on their armor for warding off daemons, and using the true names of daemons against them, and things like that.

Edited August 16, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Olis]

I see.... I don't think they should have fully developed Space Marines of their own, apart from not having the Emperor's skill at genetic engineering, if they have a militant wing wearing powered armor, it should be more unique and different. The canon Imperium has Stormtroopers, Kasyrkin and Militarum Tempestus Scions. So something more along those lines, still human-sized, but with better armor and weapons. Maybe like the Scions they could be expert Marine killers, too. Outgunning them in the field of battle.

 

Goodness gracious me, no. They won't get their own space marines.

 

I agree something like Scions or Kasrkin would be a good template, though we will need to explore this properly. I really must get around to posting up my special weaponry for the GH universe...

 

I think MkIII suits the Fists pretty well, especially their role as implacable servants of Nurgle. They seem to wear a lot of it in canon, so their veterans at least would still have it. But with Corvus armor... Nurglizing it could work, if you take it more in the direction of Imperial Space Marines. More tubing, especially one going outwards from the end of the "beak" like a gas mask/rebreather device, and possibly portruding into an area of exposed flesh or something.

 

What about Imperial Heralds? Since they're the daemonhunters of the Legiones Astartes, the obvious thing would be to give them something like Aegis armor the GK wear. But is there any way we can make it less obvious and more interesting than that? I imagine them being somewhat like the Exorcists, with sigils and arcane symbols on their armor for warding off daemons, and using the true names of daemons against them, and things like that.

 

I would be hesitant to automatically give the Fists the whole Nurglefied MkIII look, not least of all because our Nurgle Legion are gaunt, zombified ghouls with something akin to a hive mind. They won't be exhibiting the usual bloating seen with canon Death Guard.

 

But, as you put forward, I rather quite like the mental image of Corvus armoured zombies. The Imperial Space Marine style would be ideal, given the cabling. :D

 

They probably won't be getting anything obvious like not-Aegis armour. I'd also imagine they'd behave much like canon Red Hunters and Exorcists, and appear similarly. I'm inclined to lean more in that direction than anything to do with Aegis suits. :)

[GuillimanHeretic]

Heresy suits would work for that too, all those cables and molecular bonding studs, and their more "ugly" aesthetic still suits Nurgle. Well I say ugly, but in a good way.

 

What color scheme do Imperial Heralds have? Is it still grey/gold? Can I make a suggestion to make them even less like Grey Knights?

Edited August 17, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Olis]

They're slate grey, iirc.

[GuillimanHeretic]

Y'see, last year when I was playing out all the major battles of the Guilliman Heresy that I knew of, in my Dawn of War 1 Horus Heresy Campaign Demo (that I downloaded in 2006 while DoW Files at FileFront still existed) I tried out a different colour scheme for the Imperial Heralds, to reflect their loyal status. They've no reason to paint themselves red, with the exceptions of Erebus and Kor Phaeron maybe.

 

http://i.imgur.com/tsJGb18.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/UhTel08.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zxQIXIL.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IkNx0Ob.jpg

 

So I made their armor brown. I can't remember why, but I ended up really liking it. I don't think I've seen brown power armor before, unless it was someone's DIY Chapter. The idea being that they've burned away their impurities, and been reborn, like a phoenix rising from the ashes of Monarchia and their time as Word Bearers. Under low light, it looks black, but it isn't. And it contrasts with the gold and the burning orange of their flame motifs. So their weapons were bright orange, but if it was anything other than Dawn of War it'd be more intricate than that, perhaps black with flames painted along the side.

 

One way or another, my idea for the Imperial Heralds is to have a sort of American Evangelist Christian kind of feel. Not in their devotion to a God or religion. But more the culture of Colchis and the Legion, and how they've replaced that faith with the ideology of Imperial Truth. Colchis is a pretty religious place, unless it's a planet of Atheists in this universe. But I doubt it since a purge of the whole planet was necessary. But I imagine a lot of American accents and similar fervor that  televangelists are known to display.

 

I can imagine Luther Sloan as an Imperial Herald.

 

But it's probably because I don't really like grey, unless something really interesting is done with it. Like how the Raven Guard in DoW are represented by varying shades of dark grey rather than black, and it looks much more impressive and Raven-like. I wish that was their real color scheme.

 

It's a strange color choice I know, but Imperial Heralds are the only ones it would work for.

Edited August 17, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[GuillimanHeretic]

*waits for a reply*

[Olis]

I'm all in favour of maintaining the slate grey that the Heralds had prior to Lorgar. A browny-red might work for certain specialist units, though I'd rather not make the whole legion brown. And this is coming from someone who went through console gaming's "Everything is grey and brown" period. :P

 

Maybe Conn has a preference?

[SixOfOne]

I'm not Conn, but I've always been a fan of both WB/ Imperial Herald schemes as they're pretty unique among the legions and aesthetically pleasing. I would keep the grey as a base colour, and maybe add patches of the red dependent on rank or as Ollis suggested specialists. I am fully aware that that is similar to the WB as they were in canon however. If my memory is correct it was the Serrated Suns chapter Gal Vorbak elite that first had the red plate.

 

Talking about Legion specialists though, has anyone given any thought to potential specialist units that differ from those found in canon. Just something I thought about I suppose. Might help to add a bit more flavour to the Legions. 

[Conn Eremon]

One of the hallmarks of the Guilliman Heresy has been the retention of, or reversal back to, original Terran identities. The Imperial Heralds became the Word Bearers, but then reverted back to the Imperial Heralds. Lorgar's path is largely the same up to and including Monarchia. Where ours differs is in what happens immediately following what he sees in the Warp. Again, it's been awhile, but doesn't it stem from the Chapter of the Serrated Sun's fate? Our Chapter does not survive the union of body and warpspawn. They do not don the red, become the Gal Vorbak, or grow higher in Lorgar's eyes. With the Warp's viciousness and disregard for humanity revealed, Lorgar feels once again betrayed. First his true father, the Emperor himself, who cast his works into ash and dust for his faith. Now his adoptive father, leading him on a path to damnation and corruption while blinding him with ignorance and naivete.

 

Now, the future of the Loyalist Legions tends toward both specialization and diversification. The Legions become more spread thin, pockets growing their own identities and highly specialized mannerisms. Variant color schemes would not be out of the ordinary, though I'd imagine that 99% of all Legionaries can be easily identified as to which Legion they ultimately belong.

 

Kind of like FW's image of a First Company Imperial Fist. Black armor, the Templar Cross. Yellow pauldrons, yellow helm with a black stripe.

[Olis]

Talking about Legion specialists though, has anyone given any thought to potential specialist units that differ from those found in canon. Just something I thought about I suppose. Might help to add a bit more flavour to the Legions. 

 

I suppose one thing to consider are the Legions who's character or purpose we've altered one way or another: With the Space Wolves, they comes from a Fenris that is essentially a frozen hive world, rather than a death world. The Iron Warriors, rather than siege specialists, they are more the urban guerrilla/warfare types. 

 

I suggest starting with these two. 

[GuillimanHeretic]

 

Now, the future of the Loyalist Legions tends toward both specialization and diversification. The Legions become more spread thin, pockets growing their own identities and highly specialized mannerisms. Variant color schemes would not be out of the ordinary, though I'd imagine that 99% of all Legionaries can be easily identified as to which Legion they ultimately belong.

 

Kind of like FW's image of a First Company Imperial Fist. Black armor, the Templar Cross. Yellow pauldrons, yellow helm with a black stripe.

 

What about using a deep, near-black brown as a way of marking something out? Like a particular Chapter within the Legion, or something? That way it can grow and develop into a splinter Legion at some point.

 

Without the Inquisition existing in the same capacity, it provides them with something "Inquisitorial" yet different from the Grey Knights. What about some sort of daemonhunter unit, like the Ashen Circle but different. Maybe they could have very specific anti-Chaos weapons, like hand flamers and thunder hammers.

Edited August 19, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Conn Eremon]

Yes, that is what I was getting at. Any Chapter or other organizational unit or specialization could have their own color variant, including the use of near-black brown.

[GuillimanHeretic]

How much? Would a stripe down their helmets do? I thought maybe a brown stripe down their shoulder pads would look interesting, with the symbols superimposed within it in grey.

 

Also, I've no idea what a unit like that would be called, maybe something along the lines of Exorcists, but different. Less plain, at least.