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The Guilliman Heresy

Alternate Heresy Guilliman Heresy

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#101
Olis

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Well, in the canon Heresy the Night Lords and the Dark Angels come to blows in the Thramas Crusade, specifically on the world of Tsagualsa. Besides that there is the IsstVan V massacre but there is little they did beyond that (for now) during the early-mid years of the Heresy. 

 

I suggest jettisoning the Thramas Crusade, as the Night Lords have had a fundamental change in outlook (as a Legion). And considering the Isstvan analogue in our universe is Miral (while the Isstvan system itself is curbstomped by the Lion), that means, at least for the time being, we are left to our own devices with little reference from canon.

 

Also something of note is that the Night Lords are only mentioned three times in the Timeline. That is something that we'll have to remedy, lest they become bit part actors in our drama.

 

Now, as an idea, what about having them harry Rebel forces? Perhaps taking on loose elements of the Rebel Army forces (as opposed to the Imperial Army). There must be a wealth of manpower that the five-hundred worlds of Ultramar has that needs to be stymied - their fighting forces no doubt received a call-up when Guilliman boosted the numbers of his own Legion in preparation for his coup. In fact there would possibly be Tyrant Legion-esque organisations, with Legionnaires heading up great lumps of militia and forming the elite of the Ultramar Armies. I know it's shades of Badab here but we've known for a while elements of that story would be an influence.

 

New thought - who exactly would be the antithesis to the GH Night Lords? The closest I can think of is the White Scars and their secession, even though the link is rather tenuous. I could certainly imagine specific members of the Night Lords taking umbrage at the fact that the Khan has decided to remove himself from the Imperium (while others couldn't care less), but how influential those members would be, I don't know.  

 

(And yes, I know, I'm lagging behind on the drafts. I shouldn't be so tardy. :P)


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#102
Conn Eremon

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We have the Imperial Heralds and Alpha Legion basically doing that already, as an extension of what they do in canon. They're in Ultramar, harrying and delaying its massive military might by way of subterfuge, misdirection and propaganda in addition to their own military strength. We could replace one of them, but then it just sounds like a swap for no reason than to let this one Legion actually do something.

 

Here's an idea. You brought up the White Scars as their antithesis. How about we swap what you put about Ultramar for the White Scars' secessionists? When one Legion turns, irrespective of the other traitorous Legions, one Legion is sent to 'handle' it and no more. The Night Lords are the ones tasked with this, however during the endgame they are pulled out so that they may play their role in Ultramar. This gives the White Scars their opponent, something they hadn't had yet but was something they needed (they couldn't just waltz through the Heresy unmolested), gives the Night Lords something that that's all their own (the sole Imperial response to the Khan's secession) and lets us develop an entirely separate war that occurs simultaneously to the Heresy. If we have the Night Lords stall their plans for the White Scars in order to participate in the massed invasion of Ultramar, we can use that time as the White Scars' greatest expansion, taking nearly a Segmentum's worth of space both from the traitors and the loyalists and utilizing the relatively brief time in which those sides need to recollect themselves and renew their efforts to consolidate and fortify their positions. In some ways, now that I think about it, the Khan is more successful than either of our arch-heretics. The Dark Angels gamble everything in  a high-risk assault that ultimately fails, and the Ultramarines are unable to hold back the massive swell of Imperial retribution. The White Scars, however, go through a period where they're almost on equal terms with the Imperium and whose Empire, even at its weakest, has never been defeated. Entirely on their own, they technically won their Heresy.

 

Speaking of the White Scars and the Dark Angels, I think we should change the events that turn the White Scars. Though roughly the same events, swap the Ultramarines and Roboute Guilliman with the Dark Angels and Lion El'jonson. Again, we wouldn't really need to change much at all. But it could help us expand more on what the Lion is doing. He's not just trying to take Guilliman's allies from him, he's also trying to accumulate some of his own. Though he fails to grab the White Scars, he succeeds in tainting them enough in Imperial eyes to lead to their inevitable decision to secede.

 

Actually, let's go further than that. It's true, what we have of the Lion so far is that he declares he's the real Warmaster, not Guilliman, then takes Guilliman's allies from him, invades Terra disastrously and flees to his own doom at Caliban. We don't have him do much that's successful, that sets him up as a true contender for the favored Champion of Chaos Undivided. I think we should give him the Salamanders. As we have it, Vulkan is lost amid the devastation that is Miral, like what happens at canon Isstvan. Only, instead of reappearing with his sons later on, he is taken by Guilliman to an altar to Slaanesh, who converts Vulkan to it. Vulkan then returns and corrupts his Legion. Let's remove him and his Legion from Miral and add his fall somewhere else at the Lion's hand. We can keep the manner of conversion, unless we come up with something more suitable to the changes made. My idea would be to make it at our Isstvan, when the Lion attempts to upstage Guilliman, or to include it as an event very soon after it. The Salamanders will then be in the Lion's camp, not Guilliman's. However, when the Lion fails at Terra and loses the favor of the Gods, Vulkan will lead his Legion to Guilliman's banner and swear to him. This could lead to some interesting post-Heresy developments, where traitorous Dark Angels feel that the Salamanders should owe them their fealty, not to the Omega Legion. The Salamanders, being Slaaneshi, probably wouldn't give a damn. That would make it the Lion and Vulkan; Guilliman, Dorn and Sanguinius; the Khan; and much later the Iron Hands.


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#103
Olis

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We have the Imperial Heralds and Alpha Legion basically doing that already, as an extension of what they do in canon. They're in Ultramar, harrying and delaying its massive military might by way of subterfuge, misdirection and propaganda in addition to their own military strength. We could replace one of them, but then it just sounds like a swap for no reason than to let this one Legion actually do something.

 

Fair point. Let's keep that as it is.

 

Here's an idea. You brought up the White Scars as their antithesis. How about we swap what you put about Ultramar for the White Scars' secessionists? When one Legion turns, irrespective of the other traitorous Legions, one Legion is sent to 'handle' it and no more. The Night Lords are the ones tasked with this, however during the endgame they are pulled out so that they may play their role in Ultramar. This gives the White Scars their opponent, something they hadn't had yet but was something they needed (they couldn't just waltz through the Heresy unmolested), gives the Night Lords something that that's all their own (the sole Imperial response to the Khan's secession) and lets us develop an entirely separate war that occurs simultaneously to the Heresy. If we have the Night Lords stall their plans for the White Scars in order to participate in the massed invasion of Ultramar, we can use that time as the White Scars' greatest expansion, taking nearly a Segmentum's worth of space both from the traitors and the loyalists and utilizing the relatively brief time in which those sides need to recollect themselves and renew their efforts to consolidate and fortify their positions. In some ways, now that I think about it, the Khan is more successful than either of our arch-heretics. The Dark Angels gamble everything in  a high-risk assault that ultimately fails, and the Ultramarines are unable to hold back the massive swell of Imperial retribution. The White Scars, however, go through a period where they're almost on equal terms with the Imperium and whose Empire, even at its weakest, has never been defeated. Entirely on their own, they technically won their Heresy.

 

Those particular lines of thought had never occurred to me. We can't have the White Scars get away with this, over the course of however many years, scot free. Using the Night Lords to stand up to them and try to keep the wayward Khan in check would make for an interesting dynamic between the two Legions, what with this war being on the sidelines, so to speak.

 

Come to think of it. where exactly is Nostromo located in the galaxy? Wasn't that in the galactic north-east? 

 

Speaking of the White Scars and the Dark Angels, I think we should change the events that turn the White Scars. Though roughly the same events, swap the Ultramarines and Roboute Guilliman with the Dark Angels and Lion El'jonson. Again, we wouldn't really need to change much at all. But it could help us expand more on what the Lion is doing. He's not just trying to take Guilliman's allies from him, he's also trying to accumulate some of his own. Though he fails to grab the White Scars, he succeeds in tainting them enough in Imperial eyes to lead to their inevitable decision to secede.

 

Actually, let's go further than that. It's true, what we have of the Lion so far is that he declares he's the real Warmaster, not Guilliman, then takes Guilliman's allies from him, invades Terra disastrously and flees to his own doom at Caliban. We don't have him do much that's successful, that sets him up as a true contender for the favored Champion of Chaos Undivided. I think we should give him the Salamanders. As we have it, Vulkan is lost amid the devastation that is Miral, like what happens at canon Isstvan. Only, instead of reappearing with his sons later on, he is taken by Guilliman to an altar to Slaanesh, who converts Vulkan to it. Vulkan then returns and corrupts his Legion. Let's remove him and his Legion from Miral and add his fall somewhere else at the Lion's hand. We can keep the manner of conversion, unless we come up with something more suitable to the changes made. My idea would be to make it at our Isstvan, when the Lion attempts to upstage Guilliman, or to include it as an event very soon after it. The Salamanders will then be in the Lion's camp, not Guilliman's. However, when the Lion fails at Terra and loses the favor of the Gods, Vulkan will lead his Legion to Guilliman's banner and swear to him. This could lead to some interesting post-Heresy developments, where traitorous Dark Angels feel that the Salamanders should owe them their fealty, not to the Omega Legion. The Salamanders, being Slaaneshi, probably wouldn't give a damn. That would make it the Lion and Vulkan; Guilliman, Dorn and Sanguinius; the Khan; and much later the Iron Hands.

 

Hmm. Making Isstvan happen after Miral kinda messes with the timeline a little. Isstvan is the Lion's moment of proof that he can be what Horus and Guilliman were/are not - a real contender to lead the armies of humanity in lieu of the Emperor. If this was after or during Guilliman's opening moves, it could seem like the Lion is playing catch up to the Warrior King, rather than him building a powerbase. 

 

However, switching in the Dark Angels and taking the Ultramarines out sounds... like common sense, actually. He has to be successful at something. Otherwise he just looks like a patsy. A tool. What about Vulkan getting overextended in a joint campaign (post-Isstvan) with the Lion and ends up being unaccountable for a while? That way there would not actually be a head to head between the Legions and the Salamanders aren't butchered/mauled/whatever. Of course it would all be up in the air over what battlefield and what enemy would be featured but at least it keeps things smoother, imho.  


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#104
Conn Eremon

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Olisredan, on 15 Mar 2013 - 06:04, said:
Those particular lines of thought had never occurred to me. We can't have the White Scars get away with this, over the course of however many years, scot free. Using the Night Lords to stand up to them and try to keep the wayward Khan in check would make for an interesting dynamic between the two Legions, what with this war being on the sidelines, so to speak.

Come to think of it. where exactly is Nostromo located in the galaxy? Wasn't that in the galactic north-east?


Pretty much directly North-East from the Maelstrom, Chogoris, and Segmentum Solar. The newborn Khanate would lie directly between the Night Lords' homeworld and the Imperial Center. Certainly give them a good reason to be the ones chosen, as they're directly threatened. Baal is also in the way, about halfway between the Khanate and Nostramo. Chemos and Prospero lie outside of the path, but share close proximity to Chogoris and the Maelstrom.

Olisredan, on 15 Mar 2013 - 06:04, said:
Hmm. Making Isstvan happen after Miral kinda messes with the timeline a little. Isstvan is the Lion's moment of proof that he can be what Horus and Guilliman were/are not - a real contender to lead the armies of humanity in lieu of the Emperor. If this was after or during Guilliman's opening moves, it could seem like the Lion is playing catch up to the Warrior King, rather than him building a powerbase.

However, switching in the Dark Angels and taking the Ultramarines out sounds... like common sense, actually. He has to be successful at something. Otherwise he just looks like a patsy. A tool. What about Vulkan getting overextended in a joint campaign (post-Isstvan) with the Lion and ends up being unaccountable for a while? That way there would not actually be a head to head between the Legions and the Salamanders aren't butchered/mauled/whatever. Of course it would all be up in the air over what battlefield and what enemy would be featured but at least it keeps things smoother, imho.

Is that what I said? Well, didn't mean to say Isstvan is post-Miral. I definitely want it to be pre-Miral. However, the Lion isn't exactly Chaos yet so it would make sense to have the Salamanders join him in a protracted campaign that leads to their fall to Chaos. I do want Guilliman to fall to Chaos before the Lion does. I'm not sure though if I want the Miral incident to occur before the Lion's fall as well. Perhaps the Dark Angels and Salamanders pieces will say that they fell somewhere before Miral, the rest will say "Guilliman betrays the Emperor at Miral. Not too long afterward, the Lion follows suit, or is discovered to have followed suit."

EDIT: Nevermind, there's plenty of time to play around. Guilliman had fallen long before Miral, it took some time before his behavior and actions lead to an attempted intervention due to his removal from the public eye. Plenty of time for the Lion to fall himself and snare the Salamanders' loyalties after his own fall and prepare for his own grand entrance. Interestingly, we kind of have Guilliman be messed over by the Chaos Gods. Part of his bargain for joining their cause was that certain other Primarchs join his cause. These Primarchs are Ferrus Manus, Sanguinius, Dorn and Vulkan. The big four with which he felt he could conquer any enemy with. The Chaos Gods agree. Only, they make Vulkan fall through the Lion, meaning that Guilliman doesn't have their loyalties. Sanguinius falls in a manner that makes him useless to Guillman's original plans. Dorn comes to his banner but the Dorn Guilliman once knew is gone, leaving an alien being in his place. Ferrus Manus is slain before Guilliman's plans for him can come to fruition, forcing him to take Santar instead, a replacement that doesn't bear fruit in time for Guilliman's Heresy. The Chaos Gods deliver on their promise. Eventually. Technically. It's in their nature to make sure the mortals get the worse possible outcome of their deals, none more so than Guilliman himself. It makes him a bit more tragic. Betrayed by all around him. Horus' fall is caused by pride and ambition, rooted in the feeling of being replaced, obsolete. Guilliman's is caused by pride and ambition as well, but rooted in misdirected compassion.

Hm. We're taking away the Salamanders from Miral. What if we replace them with the White Scars? They go in just like the other fully loyalist Legions. Perhaps over the course of the battle(s), the White Scars are separated from the other Loyalists and the others don't know what is happening with them. The White Scars return to Chogoris to lick their wounds and recover their numbers when the Lion appears, having already proven himself a traitor as well. Perhaps the Lion is trying to play off of the Khan's assured hatred for the Warrior-King as a means to convert the Khan to the Lion. When the Khan soundly rebuffs his offer, the Lion retaliates. If the Khan won't fall with him, then he will fall alone.

The fact that Chemos lies close to Chogoris and that we have Fulgrim outright refusing to aid the Khan because of their paranoia over his meeting with the traitors, and the mysteriousness of what happened at Miral, means we should have an EC/WS conflict as well. Perhaps the Emperor's Children and the Night Lords are tasked with this? One Legion turns, so they send two to ensure victory. The White Scars, however, are perfectly suited to fighting larger forces with hit and run attacks and are based out of a zone that can't be properly assaulted. The Emperor's Children assault from the galactic south, but are mostly concerned with keeping the White Scars from expanding in their direction. The Night Lords, however, are most about assaulting and reclaiming worlds. However, their position is easily cut off by the White Scars. Though they are an effective force, they can't keep up with the mobility of the White Scars. When the Ultramar invasion begins, they invade Ultramar from the galactic north, creating a war on all fronts for the Ultramarians.

Hm. If we have Baal lie in the area that the White Scars will be expanding into, maybe we should move the significant Imperial Army battle elsewhere. While I like having the Imperial Army take out Baal, it doesn't make much sense geographically. And, it'd give the White Scars an added boost to their fluff, having taken out an Astartes homeworld, a traitor one at that. I think we have the Dusk Raiders act as the executioners of the Salamander homeworld. I'm not too attached to that event, so what if we replace them with the Imperial Army? I'm still in love with the idea of an Army force single-handedly taking out an Astartes homeworld. If it's not Baal, that only leaves Nocturne as an easy substitute since we have things going on with the other Traitor worlds.

Unless we want to give the victory to the traitors.
Fenris, Prospero, Deliverance, Chthonia, Nostramo, Spartha and Colchis should be left alone, we have something important in store for them or their survival should be assured.
That leaves:
Chemos, Olympia and Barbarus.

So, give the Imperial Army victory to Nocturne, or have a Rebel Army victory over Chemos, Olympia or Barbarus. We should only have one pure Army victory over an Astartes homeworld.

Edited by Cormac Airt, 15 March 2013 - 08:26 PM.

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#105
Olis

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Olisredan, on 15 Mar 2013 - 06:04, said:
Those particular lines of thought had never occurred to me. We can't have the White Scars get away with this, over the course of however many years, scot free. Using the Night Lords to stand up to them and try to keep the wayward Khan in check would make for an interesting dynamic between the two Legions, what with this war being on the sidelines, so to speak.
 
Come to think of it. where exactly is Nostromo located in the galaxy? Wasn't that in the galactic north-east?

 
Pretty much directly North-East from the Maelstrom, Chogoris, and Segmentum Solar. The newborn Khanate would lie directly between the Night Lords' homeworld and the Imperial Center. Certainly give them a good reason to be the ones chosen, as they're directly threatened. Baal is also in the way, about halfway between the Khanate and Nostramo. Chemos and Prospero lie outside of the path, but share close proximity to Chogoris and the Maelstrom.

 
That certainly makes for good future clashes, I think (we can discuss that nugget at a later point). As for the Night lords, this extra incentive will add that little something to spur on the Legion, despite themselves. I'm sure there'd be more than one dissenting voice that would advocate leaving Nostromo, as it becomes a weight around the neck of the legion (in the eyes of some). It'd make for some nice character development (Legion-wise) to have Nostromo directly threatened. So. Night Lords vs White Scars. That should make for an interesting fight made outside of the limelight of the main Heresy itself. 

 

Olisredan, on 15 Mar 2013 - 06:04, said:
Hmm. Making Isstvan happen after Miral kinda messes with the timeline a little. Isstvan is the Lion's moment of proof that he can be what Horus and Guilliman were/are not - a real contender to lead the armies of humanity in lieu of the Emperor. If this was after or during Guilliman's opening moves, it could seem like the Lion is playing catch up to the Warrior King, rather than him building a powerbase.
 
However, switching in the Dark Angels and taking the Ultramarines out sounds... like common sense, actually. He has to be successful at something. Otherwise he just looks like a patsy. A tool. What about Vulkan getting overextended in a joint campaign (post-Isstvan) with the Lion and ends up being unaccountable for a while? That way there would not actually be a head to head between the Legions and the Salamanders aren't butchered/mauled/whatever. Of course it would all be up in the air over what battlefield and what enemy would be featured but at least it keeps things smoother, imho.

Is that what I said? Well, didn't mean to say Isstvan is post-Miral. I definitely want it to be pre-Miral. However, the Lion isn't exactly Chaos yet so it would make sense to have the Salamanders join him in a protracted campaign that leads to their fall to Chaos. I do want Guilliman to fall to Chaos before the Lion does. I'm not sure though if I want the Miral incident to occur before the Lion's fall as well. Perhaps the Dark Angels and Salamanders pieces will say that they fell somewhere before Miral, the rest will say "Guilliman betrays the Emperor at Miral. Not too long afterward, the Lion follows suit, or is discovered to have followed suit."
 
EDIT: Nevermind, there's plenty of time to play around. Guilliman had fallen long before Miral, it took some time before his behavior and actions lead to an attempted intervention due to his removal from the public eye. Plenty of time for the Lion to fall himself and snare the Salamanders' loyalties after his own fall and prepare for his own grand entrance. Interestingly, we kind of have Guilliman be messed over by the Chaos Gods. Part of his bargain for joining their cause was that certain other Primarchs join his cause. These Primarchs are Ferrus Manus, Sanguinius, Dorn and Vulkan. The big four with which he felt he could conquer any enemy with. The Chaos Gods agree. Only, they make Vulkan fall through the Lion, meaning that Guilliman doesn't have their loyalties. Sanguinius falls in a manner that makes him useless to Guillman's original plans. Dorn comes to his banner but the Dorn Guilliman once knew is gone, leaving an alien being in his place. Ferrus Manus is slain before Guilliman's plans for him can come to fruition, forcing him to take Santar instead, a replacement that doesn't bear fruit in time for Guilliman's Heresy. The Chaos Gods deliver on their promise. Eventually. Technically. It's in their nature to make sure the mortals get the worse possible outcome of their deals, none more so than Guilliman himself. It makes him a bit more tragic. Betrayed by all around him. Horus' fall is caused by pride and ambition, rooted in the feeling of being replaced, obsolete. Guilliman's is caused by pride and ambition as well, but rooted in misdirected compassion.
 
Hm. We're taking away the Salamanders from Miral. What if we replace them with the White Scars? They go in just like the other fully loyalist Legions. Perhaps over the course of the battle(s), the White Scars are separated from the other Loyalists and the others don't know what is happening with them. The White Scars return to Chogoris to lick their wounds and recover their numbers when the Lion appears, having already proven himself a traitor as well. Perhaps the Lion is trying to play off of the Khan's assured hatred for the Warrior-King as a means to convert the Khan to the Lion. When the Khan soundly rebuffs his offer, the Lion retaliates. If the Khan won't fall with him, then he will fall alone.
 
The fact that Chemos lies close to Chogoris and that we have Fulgrim outright refusing to aid the Khan because of their paranoia over his meeting with the traitors, and the mysteriousness of what happened at Miral, means we should have an EC/WS conflict as well. Perhaps the Emperor's Children and the Night Lords are tasked with this? One Legion turns, so they send two to ensure victory. The White Scars, however, are perfectly suited to fighting larger forces with hit and run attacks and are based out of a zone that can't be properly assaulted. The Emperor's Children assault from the galactic south, but are mostly concerned with keeping the White Scars from expanding in their direction. The Night Lords, however, are most about assaulting and reclaiming worlds. However, their position is easily cut off by the White Scars. Though they are an effective force, they can't keep up with the mobility of the White Scars. When the Ultramar invasion begins, they invade Ultramar from the galactic north, creating a war on all fronts for the Ultramarians.
 
Hm. If we have Baal lie in the area that the White Scars will be expanding into, maybe we should move the significant Imperial Army battle elsewhere. While I like having the Imperial Army take out Baal, it doesn't make much sense geographically. And, it'd give the White Scars an added boost to their fluff, having taken out an Astartes homeworld, a traitor one at that. I think we have the Dusk Raiders act as the executioners of the Salamander homeworld. I'm not too attached to that event, so what if we replace them with the Imperial Army? I'm still in love with the idea of an Army force single-handedly taking out an Astartes homeworld. If it's not Baal, that only leaves Nocturne as an easy substitute since we have things going on with the other Traitor worlds.
 
Unless we want to give the victory to the traitors.
Fenris, Prospero, Deliverance, Chthonia, Nostramo, Spartha and Colchis should be left alone, we have something important in store for them or their survival should be assured.
That leaves:
Chemos, Olympia and Barbarus.
 
So, give the Imperial Army victory to Nocturne, or have a Rebel Army victory over Chemos, Olympia or Barbarus. We should only have one pure Army victory over an Astartes homeworld.

 
So, with the Dark Angels falling seperately to the Ultramarines, giving them the Salamanders makes sense. The Lion wasn't a fool after all. However, the refusal of the Scars to join his banner would put a bee in his bonnet, no doubt. He's the rightful Warmaster damnit! How dare his brother spurn him like this! :D I wonder how he'd go about with playing nice with Guilliman after that, at least until the Lion begins to prepare for Terra.

 
The White Scars at Miral would stoke the fires of mistrust that we've given to the Khan, or at least start them. Plus, giving the Scars Baal would definitely put the cat amongst the pidgeons when the Blood Angels find out. It also puts a much looked for feather in the Khans hat - I say that is a good idea all round. Also having the Khanate beset by the Emperor's Children and the Night Lords will work for a time - at some point Fulgrim will need to take his leave of that theatre because he'll be needed on stage for the Siege of Terra. Hmm... I wonder what the Night Lords would make of that? biggrin.png
 
As for the Imperial Army taking Nocturne, it sounds good and I'm all for it, but wasn't there a reason we put the Dusk Raiders there? I can't remember the specific reason, I must say. Whatever it was, they'll need to be transposed somewhere else probably. I have a feeling them being at Nocturne tied into something else to do with the Legion. Wait...wait... wasn't it to do with perceived retribution? They blamed the Sallies for something, iirc. 


Edited by Olisredan, 19 March 2013 - 01:05 PM.

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#106
Conn Eremon

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That certainly makes for good future clashes, I think (we can discuss that nugget at a later point). As for the Night lords, this extra incentive will add that little something to spur on the Legion, despite themselves. I'm sure there'd be more than one dissenting voice that would advocate leaving Nostromo, as it becomes a weight around the neck of the legion (in the eyes of some). It'd make for some nice character development (Legion-wise) to have Nostromo directly threatened. So. Night Lords vs White Scars. That should make for an interesting fight made outside of the limelight of the main Heresy itself.

 
Hm. We have the Night Lords be particularly conflicted internally. Should we have one group champion the idea of leaving Nostramo? If so, who? I would think only the ex-criminals would be for that, but do they have enough power to make it an issue? Well, nevermind. Let's amp up this internal conflict. It's across group lines, based around recruitment centers. With the Night Lords garrisoning multiple worlds, some as heavily defended as Nostramo itself, they would certainly recruit at least some of these otherworlders. Perhaps these otherworlders champion it, specifically rallying to a single world, an early conquest that is in many ways more ideal to the Night Lords than Nostramo itself and is the largest non-Nostraman recruitment center of the Legion. 
 

So, with the Dark Angels falling seperately to the Ultramarines, giving them the Salamanders makes sense. The Lion wasn't a fool after all. However, the refusal of the Scars to join his banner would put a bee in his bonnet, no doubt. He's the rightful Warmaster damnit! How dare his brother spurn him like this! biggrin.png I wonder how he'd go about with playing nice with Guilliman after that, at least until the Lion begins to prepare for Terra.
 
The White Scars at Miral would stoke the fires of mistrust that we've given to the Khan, or at least start them. Plus, giving the Scars Baal would definitely put the cat amongst the pidgeons when the Blood Angels find out. It also puts a much looked for feather in the Khans hat - I say that is a good idea all round. Also having the Khanate beset by the Emperor's Children and the Night Lords will work for a time - at some point Fulgrim will need to take his leave of that theatre because he'll be needed on stage for the Siege of Terra. Hmm... I wonder what the Night Lords would make of that? biggrin.png
 
As for the Imperial Army taking Nocturne, it sounds good and I'm all for it, but wasn't there a reason we put the Dusk Raiders there? I can't remember the specific reason, I must say. Whatever it was, they'll need to be transposed somewhere else probably. I have a feeling them being at Nocturne tied into something else to do with the Legion. Wait...wait... wasn't it to do with perceived retribution? They blamed the Sallies for something, iirc.

 

We don't have to have the Lion play nice at all. We got an important war between the arch-traitors that culminates with the Lion taking Guilliman's toys to Terra. We could have the Lion's arrival post-Scars be the opening of that internal conflict.

 

It'd help make the three sides following the Heresy openly hate everyone equally, adding major Loyalist and Traitor rivals to the Khanate.  How about this, the Night Lords don't know about the coming Siege of Terra. They're cut off by the Scars and far from Terra. The Emperor's Children, however, do know. All the Night Lords know is that when planned battles arrive, the Emperor's Children never show up. Later they may discover the reason, but they'll never forgive the Emperor's Children. Probably because they can't forgive themselves for their absence, explaining their presence at the Siege of Macragge.

 

The Dusk Raiders invade Nocturne as a means to include them in a major victory so that their involvement in the Heresy doesn't end with the loss of their heroic Primarch and First Captain. We can always include them in the Scouring, making their Heresy involvement low. The Loyalist equivalent to the Iron Hands. Or give them something else. I don't think it was because of anything the Salamanders did personally.


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#107
ShasVa

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To brothers Olis and Cormac, and to all readers of the Guilliman Heresy...

 

Due to certain things such as real-life commitments and planning to restart a Tau army (major heresy, I know :P), I am no longer going to actively contribute to the project. I am very happy and proud of what it has become, and never imagined that it would get so much attention, span two topics, or even inspire other heresy fan-fiction.

 

The intent of the project has succeeded beyond what I thought. It goes into great detail about an alternate heresy of the 40k universe, and with that fulfilled, I consider it mission-accomplished. Even without my direct influence it has continued to "live and grow".

 

Olisredan. Cormac Airt.
Brothers, I leave the Guilliman Heresy in your hands now. I may pop in from time to time, and always feel free to PM me for input if you wish.

 

Thanks to everyone who has ever contributed to this project. It's been a blast! :D



#108
Olis

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I'm saddened you're stepping away from the Guilliman Heresy, Shas'Va, not least because you laid the foundation for us to work from. I very much appreciate the torch being passed to me and Cormac - we will do you, the contributors and B&C in general proud.  


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#109
Conn Eremon

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Olisredan and I will continue to build the Guilliman Heresy to even greater heights, never fear about that ShasVa. As Olis already pretty much said, there wouldn't be a Guilliman Heresy Project without your initial imagination. More than that, you brought us both on to your Project as equal collaborators, thereby granting me, and I'm sure Olis as well, a much-looked for outlet for our own imaginations.

 

Thank you for what you have done. Thank you for letting us continue it after you have gone. And above all, thanks for the Guilliman Heresy.


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#110
Conn Eremon

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Okay, so let's get back into the swing of things. I've been thinking of ways to alter the Khan's pre-Primarch days, something to alter his perception of the Imperium from the get-go and help give precedent for his actions during the Heresy. I've been holding off on mentioning it because I'm using a real-world reference and it took me forever to recall enough details on it to look it up and make sure I'm getting my facts straight. Which, now that I think about it, was pointless. I'm using it as a source for some imaginative explorations, what the hell does it matter if the source is accurate? I'm not putting it in verbatim after all.<br /><br />Anyway, Jaghatai Khan is obviously Genghis Khan. He comes from the Space Mongolians, who share their world with a monolithic civilization, the Space Chinese. That's the obvious bit. I'm going to add some European Barbarian/Rome stuff, though. It is rather fitting, as the Space Chinese are led by the Palatine, which happens to be the name of the biggest hill of Rome. The City of the Seven Hills. The Hill where the Emperor lived. See, there was this guy named Arminius who was raised as a hostage in Rome. Kind of going along with the belief that if Rome made this barbarian a Roman, then his people, once he led them, would not be a threat to Rome. Big mistake, as Arminius went on to unite the Germanic tribes and kick the Romans the heck out of their Teutoberg Forest. Then he got assassinated by the other Chieftains because an Emperor bribed them, but we'll leave that part out.

 

The part I want to add in is this hostage situation. So here's my thinking. Jaghatai is no Khan. He's still the son of a Khan. On a tragic day, his father is slain by soldiers of the Palatine, led by a noble on a hunting trip among the savages. This noble saw in the Khan's young son some promise and had him captured. The young Jaghatai was dragged in chains to the Palatine's Palace. There he would be held as a hostage, but outwardly would be led to believe he is a guest of honor. Jaghatai will spend the next few years within this immense Empire. Here he will learn the ways of war, the etiquette of the high life and the simple needs of a civilized life. But always a desire for revenge will burn within him. Eventually, Jaghatai's progress couldn't be ignored. He could outmaneuver any of the Palatine's generals during wargames, he could spin the Great Senate around his finger with his articulate speeches and had begun teaching the oldest sages of the land ever since they ceased being able to teach him anything. Jaghatai was brought before the Palatine, well-manicured, shaved and mannered and declared a citizen, a free man. Here the Palatine's true plan will come to light. Jaghatai will be returned to his people out on the plains, where he will lead them to the Palatine to bend the knee.

 

For a time, the Palatine will probably think his plan worked. Jaghatai will return to his people. First, he goes to the Kurayed, a tribe that always hated the one his father led, now long gone, and who Jaghatai suspects orchestrated the attack that killed his father and his tribe. He will challenge the Kurayed Khan and emerge victorious. With a bloodthirsty ambition, the Khan will take into his fold tribe after tribe. Those who came to him were allowed to remain the leader of their tribes. Those who refused were destroyed, the survivors absorbed by other loyal tribes. With single-minded determination, Jaghatai will forcibly take all of the tribes of his people to him and declare himself the Great Khan.

 

Then, he will march upon the eastern Empire. The Palatine will probably be looking on with unrestrained greed, his lust for power blinding him to the fact that the hostage child had not grown into anything close to loyal to him, and was not marching just to bend the knee. Jaghatai will take his tribesmen and he will tear the greatest Empire the world had ever seen apart. Brick by brick, city by city, until he reaches the walls of the Palatine's palace. With the greatest horde ever seen upon the face of this world, Jaghatai Khan, truest owner of the title of conqueror, will raze the greatest city to the ground, leaving no survivors.

 

Then, his revenge spent, the Khan will retreat from the world. No longer are there individual tribes and so he remains their Great Khan. The peoples once ruled by the Palatine are now enslaved, their homes, lives and wealth the spoils of war. Though uncaring of what it meant for him, the Great Khan was ruler of all Chogoris. To Jaghatai, it meant nothing more than to stay within the dim confines of his great tent, within which he could enjoy those spoils reserved for him.

 

It will be within this tent that a strangerr will enter. Striding past various articles of wealth, glittering and shining, past shivering, huddled women, past the rows of lethal weaponry and sturdy armors of various designs, past the ranks of the Khan's blood-brothers, hardened men with hungry eyes, and on to the raised platform upon which the Khan reclined upon a throne of heavy furs.

 

Casting his eyes back to the various scenes playing out within the Great Khan's grand abode, the stranger will speak. "You have obtained for yourself an Empire you know nothing about. You have made yourself ruler, while knowing nothing about how to rule. You are a general, I can see. Not a king. Not an Emperor. I am. I am the only Emperor. The only one that ever truly was, the only one that will ever be. You were destined to be my general. It was a destiny I wrought with my own hands. Come, Jaghatai. Live the life you are most comfortable with and serve me."

 

With this, the Khan will rise from his throne and step down to stand before the stranger, speaking as he goes. "With my sword and bow I have forged these lands into mine. I have challenged the many Khans of my people, and of those who are not, and I have bested every one. I am the Great Khan and all this is mine, a destiny I wrought with my own hands. You dare demand I serve you, stranger, without having the decency of besting me first?"

 

"If I must challenge you to gain your loyalty, then I accept."

 

The two will battle throughout the night, each taking up various arms from the great spoils Jaghatai had accumulated. An intense battle, raging unabated for hours until that moment of treachery. Khariggis Khan, a charismatic and ambitious leader of men and blood-brother to the Khan, sees opportunity and strikes. A powerful bolt, fired from a strong bow of the plainsmen, streaks from Khariggis Khan towards the Great Khan's back as he stands with blades locked against the stranger. Seeing the danger, the stranger reacts with heretofore unseen strength and speed, reversing places with Jaghatai and taking the heavy arrow directly into the back. Immediately the other blood-brothers leap into action, some at Khariggis and others in his defense. Whatever outcome that brief struggle may have come to, the enraged Great Khan ended it with a sweep of a long sword, decapitating Khariggis and two other traitors with one swing. Afterward, the Khan turns to the surely deceased stranger, confusion wrought upon his face. However, the stranger still stands, seemingly unharmed but for the bloodied arrow clutched in his hand. And thus, the Emperor of Mankind casts off the illusion he'd been wearing. His resplendence will bring all, slave and warrior alike, to their knees. The Emperor asks once again for the Khan to kneel before him. With an unexpected wave of realization that he knew who this man was, the Khan kneels before the Emperor and pledges his life to the Emperor.

 

. . . And, eventually, he will discover that it had all been just another elaborate illusion. Once again, he was nothing more than a hostage, honed into a weapon for no purpose than to give a man of power more power. And he will once again forge his own destiny.


Edited by Cormac Airt, 27 March 2013 - 02:15 AM.

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#111
Wade Garrett

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So, are you going to hint that maaaaybe the most powerful psyker in the history of life put an idea or three into Khariggis's head? That would be...it's the level of subtle cunning the Emperor SHOULD be capable of, but usually isn't written as showing. ("No, Angron, you can't have a sleepover with your gladiator friends, you're getting on daddy's spaceship whether you like it or not." Canon!)

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#112
Conn Eremon

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. . . Yoink.


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#113
Olis

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Apologies for my lack of input recently - you may blame that on my dead laptop. I'll try to work up some input tomorrow. :)


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#114
Olis

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Okay, so let's get back into the swing of things.

 

*snip*

 

And he will once again forge his own destiny.

 

What can I say? I love it. Not overly elaborate but at least sets out to explain the Khans untrusting attitude. He's been betrayed by Khariggis and has been caged by the Palatine. I wonder what he thinks of the Emperor at particularly important points in the Great Crusade? Or of Guilliman, even, with his 'empire in the east'? I'm sure the similarities would not have escaped the Khan, least of all during the Heresy itself after the loyalties had been set. I would think his attitude of Horus and the Lion could very well be antagonistic, or that's how I'm seeing it in my mind's eye.

 

Now then, having (finally) started to read Shadows of Treachery I had a notion about Dorn's Retribution Fleet. Clearly he was keen on the Seventh Legion having a proper crack at the Isstvan rebels but they simply got waylaid (and ambushed) at Phall. So, I'm of a mind to suggest that Dorn and the Imperial Fists perform an early-ish action or two as loyalists, mainly concerning the Retribution Fleet getting stymied by the Ultramarines at, say... Gryphonne (the Forge World) and perhaps hounded back toward Imperial space (or they could just simply fight and die around Gryphonne against overwhelming numbers). The where doesn't really matter too much unless we want to mess with the Mechanicum but the point is the what: Imperial Fists being loyalists.


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#115
Conn Eremon

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An early action with the Imperial Fists on the side of the Loyalists would be awesome. Really ups the ironic grimdarkness of it all, having their earliest moments during the Heresy on the side of the Emperor, only to fall later on. And it really distinguishes the changes that occur on Inwit. As we've stated already, the Imperial Fists enter Inwit loyal to the Emperor, but leave as traitors. It'd really make that point crystal clear if we actually show it to them.

 

Raises an interesting point, too. Is the Retribution Fleet with Dorn at Inwit? If not, do they fall anyways? Or are they an element Dorn is forced to purge? At the very least, it adds some character and flavor, while having potential of branching out in a number of ways.

 

Back to the Khan, it appears to me that there might be a potential schism within his own Legion as well. This version of the Jaghatai has no tribe. He is the Great Khan of all the tribes, but he is never of one since his was destroyed in his youth. Not only that, but as you mentioned he was betrayed by his closest blood-brothers, those who shared in his personal spoils. So while there may be some contention and room to develop his interactions with the other Primarchs, there's also some room in his own Legion. It is, after all, a Legion of brotherhood more than others are. Their companies are called Brotherhoods. Each Brotherhood is a tribe, led by its Khan. And Jaghatai is its Great Khan. The same scenes would unfold. Those he would otherwise name blood-brothers, the equivalent to the Mournival, Trident and other bodies of close friends and advisors to their Primarchs, would be kept distant and apart. Whereas the canon Jaghatai is no different than any of his sons, outside of simply accomplishing more, the GH Jaghatai will be.


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#116
Olis

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Is the Retribution Fleet with Dorn at Inwit? If not, do they fall anyways? Or are they an element Dorn is forced to purge? At the very least, it adds some character and flavor, while having potential of branching out in a number of ways.

 

Well, I would be inclined to have them sent to battle the Ultramarines and then the survivors retreat (let's say only one in four vessels survive) to Necromunda. Now, considering Necromunda is a world that the canon Imperial Fists recruit from, it'd make for interesting reading when the Retribution Fleet learns of the rest of the Legion turning at Inwit (say they are waylaid by repairs and turbulent warp tides). Thus the Retribution Fleet must hold to their namesake and fight their brothers (and lose).

 

(In the story Crimson Fist there is roughly five hundred vessels that comprise the Retribution Fleet with thirty thousand Fists in attendance.)

 

 

Back to the Khan, it appears to me that there might be a potential schism within his own Legion as well. This version of the Jaghatai has no tribe. He is the Great Khan of all the tribes, but he is never of one since his was destroyed in his youth. Not only that, but as you mentioned he was betrayed by his closest blood-brothers, those who shared in his personal spoils. So while there may be some contention and room to develop his interactions with the other Primarchs, there's also some room in his own Legion. It is, after all, a Legion of brotherhood more than others are. Their companies are called Brotherhoods. Each Brotherhood is a tribe, led by its Khan. And Jaghatai is its Great Khan. The same scenes would unfold. Those he would otherwise name blood-brothers, the equivalent to the Mournival, Trident and other bodies of close friends and advisors to their Primarchs, would be kept distant and apart. Whereas the canon Jaghatai is no different than any of his sons, outside of simply accomplishing more, the GH Jaghatai will be.

 

Pretty much how I'm seeing it, I think. Each Khan would have to watch his so-called brothers for opportunism. 


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#117
Conn Eremon

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So there would be a purge on the horizon. A conflict at some point during the Heresy (I'd assume prior to the Siege of Terra, perhaps directly prior) in which Dorn is forced to war against those sons that refuse him. Interestingly, the manner in which we have Dorn at this point means that in defeating them he can enforce their loyalty. Once dead, Dorn can reanimate them much as he does those sons already loyal to him. Though they may be marked as different, unique, they're back in the fold.

 

Been thinking of the Emperor's Children and Miral. I think it'd be good to have them be broken at Miral like the other Legions are. The Emperor's Children have already suffered a setback, prior to Fulgrim's discovery. They're knocked down to less than a thousand Marines. At Miral, they're at their greatest strength, a peak. Following Miral, they've been slammed back down to square one. The Ultramarines were devastating and thorough, and the conflict between the Emperor's Children and the Iron Hands only worsened it.

 

So Miral would be more like the canon Isstvan, effectively removing three loyalist Legions from the conflict. The Iron Hands and  White Scars, whose loyalties are shaken by the conflict and begins the spiral to their own separate betrayals, and the Emperor's Children. Unlike the other Legions, and the canon three, the Emperor's Children don't simply retreat back to their homeworld to lick their wounds. In fact, they don't act any differently than before. Hell, when the Lion lays siege upon the homeworld of humanity, who is the figure to first stand up against him but Fulgrim? Exceptionally brave of them, acting above and beyond even that which other Legions had balked at. Being brought once more so close to extinction,  they respond only with increased fervor and activity, their own attempts at perfection being the sole cause for their continued survival throughout the extended wars.


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#118
Conn Eremon

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I finally got around to fixing the Legion list of the Guilliman Heresy. I'll remove the picture in its initial post.

 

gfVdqyO.png


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#119
Grotsmasha

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That is cool Cormac, I'll be keeping a copy of that.

@ Olisredan: Perhaps this could be edited into the first post?

 

Cheers,

Jono


Edited by Grotsmasha, 06 April 2013 - 05:44 AM.


#120
Olis

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@ Olisredan: Perhaps this could be edited into the first post?

 

Sure. We need something to break up all that text. :D


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#121
Olis

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Okay, double-post time. What with my limited access to B&C in the past couple of weeks, my mind has been left to ferment by itself for longer than is probably safe. Anyhoo, in the meantime I got thinking - now that B&C is an Armies of Humanity board rather than a PA exclusive board, I cast my mind to the human element of the Imperium (and the Khanate). Clearly more needs to be said and detailed of them - First of all, what of the Sigillite?  

 

Well, he's clearly a political beast in Canon and I see no reason to change him (yet). Singularly privileged to hold council with Primarchs (Dorn, for example, in The Lightning Tower) and conduct secret meetings (Nemesis), he's in a position to be extremely influential, should it be necessary. What with the Emperor explicitly trusting him and his sizable psychic abilities, I reckon the Alpha Legion and the Thousand Sons might very well benefit with interaction with the Sigillite.

 

So, also worth noting, is the assassination attempt on Horus in Nemesis (which the Sigillite ordered). In comparison, any assassination attempts on Guilliman, the Khan and the Lion would be ordained by the Sigillite, obviously. Question is - how significant are these attempts? Do any even get close? What are the reactions of the targets? I doubt any of them would be best pleased, least of all the Khan, seeing yet more evidence of treachery. Perhaps they might expect assassination attempts, depending. Guilliman, with foresight might. The Khan? I don't know. Perhaps. Just how paranoid is he? The Lion, with respect, could very well be the closest to coming to being assassinated, simply because he's preoccupied with his rivalry with Guilliman. His eyes are elsewhere. That's not to say any attempt with succeed, but still, it's interesting.

 

Secondly, the assassins themselves. I take it we shall be sticking with the six-temple format that canon has, yes? Culexus, Vindicare, Eversor, Callidus, Venenum, and Vanus. Each temple (or clade, as Nemesis refers to them) practices a unique form of their chosen art. Do we need to change this? I'm leaning towards no, to be honest. The six as they are serve well enough without directly tinkering with them. As to their actions during the Heresy - we could elaborate further vis a vis the assassination attempts, really. I know I sounds like I've answered my own questions but the point is the sounding board. Should any conflicting ideas crop up, then it's good to clarify established positions and evaluate new input.

 

Third, the Mechanicum. Now, as we know they largely remain unto themselves during the Heresy, barring minor exceptions. What with the Canon Mechanicum being partially co-opted by Horus, thus becoming the Dark Mechanicum, that element is moot in this alternate universe. What I do think, though, is that the Mechanicum will still be riven with a dispute over whether or not to come to Terra's aid. What with many techpriests believing the Emperor is an incarnation of the Omnissiah, and many of the compatriots thinking this isn't the case, I don't see a bright future for the former group, given the established neutrality of the Mechanicum during the Guilliman Heresy. I think they'd either be silenced (leading to incidents and some limited warfare, perhaps) or coerced into neutrality. Which means there's going to be a minority of Pro-Imperial tech-priests at the end of the Heresy. Just how many of them and their ideals survive to the beginning of the Mars-Terra Conflict is likely a small fraction. Question is; what would the Imperium do with these individuals, should they survive to be captured? Re-educate them? Rehabilitate them? Quietly dispose of them? Use them as is in the establishment of the Auretian-led Scientifica?

 

I'll leave my musings at that for now. :)


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#122
Quixus

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I'd drop the Eversor temple. I never saw crazed drug-addled killing machines fitting the title of assassin. Maybe lump them with some other branch of the imperial war machine, maybe the penal legions (if they exist).

#123
Conn Eremon

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Okay, double-post time. What with my limited access to B&C in the past couple of weeks, my mind has been left to ferment by itself for longer than is probably safe. Anyhoo, in the meantime I got thinking - now that B&C is an Armies of Humanity board rather than a PA exclusive board, I cast my mind to the human element of the Imperium (and the Khanate). Clearly more needs to be said and detailed of them - First of all, what of the Sigillite?  

 

Well, he's clearly a political beast in Canon and I see no reason to change him (yet). Singularly privileged to hold council with Primarchs (Dorn, for example, in The Lightning Tower) and conduct secret meetings (Nemesis), he's in a position to be extremely influential, should it be necessary. What with the Emperor explicitly trusting him and his sizable psychic abilities, I reckon the Alpha Legion and the Thousand Sons might very well benefit with interaction with the Sigillite.

 

 

Last I heard, we were having the Sigillite die on the Throne, like in canon, though I think it was to let Magnus up instead of the Emperor. Or something like that. Don't remember!

 

But yeah, we should totally flesh out his role prior to his death, if we keep it.

 

So, also worth noting, is the assassination attempt on Horus in Nemesis (which the Sigillite ordered). In comparison, any assassination attempts on Guilliman, the Khan and the Lion would be ordained by the Sigillite, obviously. Question is - how significant are these attempts? Do any even get close? What are the reactions of the targets? I doubt any of them would be best pleased, least of all the Khan, seeing yet more evidence of treachery. Perhaps they might expect assassination attempts, depending. Guilliman, with foresight might. The Khan? I don't know. Perhaps. Just how paranoid is he? The Lion, with respect, could very well be the closest to coming to being assassinated, simply because he's preoccupied with his rivalry with Guilliman. His eyes are elsewhere. That's not to say any attempt with succeed, but still, it's interesting.

 

You mentioned the Alpha Legion, I'm sure they could be utilized to great effect here. They're going to be doing that sort of thing anyways, might as well have it be sanctioned. 

 

As for their targets, I agree that Guilliman might be the most defended against them. In many ways, it's that shadowy aspect of war that he is most against and one of the root causes of his betrayal. He'll be on guard against such tactics, for it's very symbolic of the Imperium he's against.

 

The Lion could have a botched assassin attempt be the thing that galvanizes him to commit to an early Siege of Terra. True, he'd been in the midst of skirmishes with Guilliman already, but surviving (perhaps barely, or perhaps the botched attempt succeeds in removing favored sons or military resources) an assassination attempt by Imperials will get him to focus all of his exceptional capabilities on the task of beheading the Imperial snake.

 

As for the Khan. I don't know. I'm sure attempts could be made. Maybe that's what the Night Lords are doing. The elements closer in mindset to their canon counterparts wouldn't be all for meeting their enemy in fair combat anyways and would endeavor to eradicate their foes unseen. In other words, the Night Lords will make assassination attempts, though they'd be the impulsive actions of certain Legionnaires.

 

Secondly, the assassins themselves. I take it we shall be sticking with the six-temple format that canon has, yes? Culexus, Vindicare, Eversor, Callidus, Venenum, and Vanus. Each temple (or clade, as Nemesis refers to them) practices a unique form of their chosen art. Do we need to change this? I'm leaning towards no, to be honest. The six as they are serve well enough without directly tinkering with them. As to their actions during the Heresy - we could elaborate further vis a vis the assassination attempts, really. I know I sounds like I've answered my own questions but the point is the sounding board. Should any conflicting ideas crop up, then it's good to clarify established positions and evaluate new input.

 

Unless something in the Heresy already put down would affect or influence the clades, I'd say no, we don't need to bother changing anything. 

 

The only thing I can think of is that the assassins are seen mostly as the hidden daggers of the Inquisition in canon, though they are separate organizations. In the GH, there is no Inquisition but we do have an Inquisitorial like institution, the Investigatus. All things considered, I don't see much of a connection between the two organizations. I don't think the Investigatus would have as much use for the assassins as the canon Inquisitors would. On the other hand, we have a separate Inquisitorial group that operates a lot similarly to the Inquisition, while remaining far more behind the scenes and invisible than their canon counterparts, the Alpha Legion. 

 

Hm. Well, way I see it, there's no need to move, remove or otherwise change the Officio Assassinorum. I'm fine with it staying its own unique organisation, though we can perhaps change the manner in which they interact and cooperate with other organisations. The Astartes who would most be against the Assassins are, by and large, gone. They're the traitors. The Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Salamanders and Blood Angels are all traitors in this universe and are one and all the Legions most against assassins. Whereas those who would be most for them are loyal. The Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, partially the Night Lords (partially against, I'm sure) would all be fine with working closely with assassins, I'm sure. The others I think would just let them do their own thing. So the Space Marine/Assassin interactions would change.

 

Third, the Mechanicum. Now, as we know they largely remain unto themselves during the Heresy, barring minor exceptions. What with the Canon Mechanicum being partially co-opted by Horus, thus becoming the Dark Mechanicum, that element is moot in this alternate universe. What I do think, though, is that the Mechanicum will still be riven with a dispute over whether or not to come to Terra's aid. What with many techpriests believing the Emperor is an incarnation of the Omnissiah, and many of the compatriots thinking this isn't the case, I don't see a bright future for the former group, given the established neutrality of the Mechanicum during the Guilliman Heresy. I think they'd either be silenced (leading to incidents and some limited warfare, perhaps) or coerced into neutrality. Which means there's going to be a minority of Pro-Imperial tech-priests at the end of the Heresy. Just how many of them and their ideals survive to the beginning of the Mars-Terra Conflict is likely a small fraction. Question is; what would the Imperium do with these individuals, should they survive to be captured? Re-educate them? Rehabilitate them? Quietly dispose of them? Use them as is in the establishment of the Auretian-led Scientifica?

 

I'd be more likely to choose the latter option. Utilize them in the establishment of the revived Auretian Technocracy, as the overlords of what is left of the Martian forge world. 

 

However, I'm also inclined to say that there is none by the end of the conflict. Not that the Imperium kills them and cuts their losses, just that the extent of the war and the fact that the anti-Imperialists compose the vast majority implies to me that any potential loyalists would be caught up in the chaos (heh) of it all and likely become collateral damage. The Emperor-haters would likely strive to clean house once the conflict sparks, purge their ranks even further. Loyalists with backbones would try to aid the war effort, though likely not in true conjunction with other Imperials and therefore relatively easy to take out. Those who retain a sense of neutrality even when the war reaches the red sand of their own homeworld will likely be destroyed as collateral damage by the flying rockets and rampaging armies. Loyalists capable of contacting Imperial forces might not find the allies they thought are there, as many would see their inactivity as a betrayal no different than their truly traitorous brethren.

 

Which might be good to up the grimdarkness. There are no surviving loyal Techpriests, but here's a sidebar depicting a Techpriest praising the Omnissiah as he finally gets in contact with the attacking Space Wolves, already planning ahead on how to join in on the war effort to slay the heretical traitors, only to find that the Space Wolves locked onto his beacon and unleashed an orbital bombardment. The last thing the Techpriest hears is the Space Wolf commander growling into the vox "Such is the fate of all traitors."

 

Quixus: Though I agree with your opinion on the Eversor assassins, I'm not sure it'd make sense to eradicate them, or merge them with others.

 

But thanks for bringing up penal legions. It immediately sprang to mind the idea of the Night Lords utilizing penal legions as their mortal military forces. In essence driving them onto enemy guns to die in the service of the Emperor.


Edited by Cormac Airt, 16 April 2013 - 08:30 PM.

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#124
Olis

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Back to the mortal elements (again) - the Imperium's Navy (well, Army, but you get the gist). Over the course of the ten thousand years the Imperium exists, the vessels will improve, given the non-backwards nature to technology this one has. Miniaturization, innovation and invention will surely see new classes of vessel with increasingly sophisticated equipment. New (or old, in regards to recovered STC kit) armour, new guns, new engines, new sensors. The comparison to Canon probably will be an indirect one through the Khanate's vessels. These ships will be old, battle-hardened and likely modified through necessity rather than innovation.

 

So, what does that mean? Well... I would think some of the GH Imperium's frontline vessels won't exhibit gigantism like Canon 40k, yet still prove as powerful. 

 

Random momentary thought over. The floor goes back to you guys. :)


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#125
Conn Eremon

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Why would our Imperium steer clear of large constricts? I like the idea of our ships being small, but fierce, but why?

First thing that comes to mind is the body-glove power armor Technocracy had. Maybe one of their STC's, or more than one, it could be a whole class of such devices, doesn't make stuff, but modifies it. One of which decreases mass while increasing functionality. Though the Mechanicum would rarely use such devices, especially the most radical changers, the Auretians would not be held back.

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