Having trouble with 1500 Isstvan Loyalists

[Jim AMM realgenius]

I'm working on a 1500 point list based on the Isstvan III Loyalists, but having trouble, mostly it seems because Heresy armies seem to want to be more than 1500 points and because I'm not that familiar with playing even normal Marines at 1500 points.

 

I wanted both Loken and Tarvitz, which means an Allied detachment, so already I'm looking at about 800 points (the two plus three bare-bones Tac squads. I'd like to add Ancient Rylanor or a Torgaddon and some sort of elite squad to run with Loken to represent Locasta squad, but find myself rapidly running out of points and not having enough of an answer for heavy armor.

 

Here's one go:

 

PRIMARY DETACHMENT

HQ: Loken

Fast: Legion Seeker Squad (5), 4 combi-weapons, Sarge with Power Weapon, melta bombs

Troop: Legion Tac Squad (10), Vexilla, Sarge with Combi-weapon, Power Weapon

 

Troop: Legion Tac Squad (10), Vexilla, Sarge with Combi-weapon, Lightning Claw

Troop: Legion Tac Support (7), Volkite Calipers

 

ALLIES

HQ: Tarvitz

 

Troop: Legion Tac Squad (10), Vexilla, Sage with Power Weapon

Heavy: Legion Heavy Support (5), Autocannons, Augury Scanner

 

 

I will probably paint up the one Tac Squad as World Eaters and switch out their bolters for CCW so I'll have a visual mix of Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children and WE.

 

Is combi-meltas enough for dealing with Heavy armor? Maybe switch the Autocannons to missile launchers and give them Flakk missiles which will give a little more S but still deal with flyers well.

 

And is three squads of 10 enough Troops for 1500 points?

[hisdudeness]

I believe 1500 is too small for a Legion list and way too small for allies. You can create the same effect (and maybe cheaper) by building a 'Tarvitz' out of a Praetor without the allies tax.

 

Troops not at full strength (or at least at 15) seem like a waste to me. A 15-20 man Fury of the Legion volley is fearsome and will make most people think twice about assaulting that line. That's what makes the Legion list different then a C:SM list. Besides the named HQ units and the seekers, you have a basic marine list. You are also lacking in mobility, which is fine if you are going for a list based on the 'last stand' of the books.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

Good point that this list doesn't take advantage of the larger squad sizes.  Is 2 15-man Troops big enough? at 1500 points?

 

I agree on the lack of mobility, but I'm going for theme-y at the expense of effectiveness and balance.

[hisdudeness]

15 should be the minimum due the way Merciless Fighters work, if you are playing other 30k lists.  You will need numbers on your side.

 

I'm all about theme fluff lists, much more fun.  I still think you should proxy the Emperor's Children at 1500.  Just paint them up EC and run with it. You can also make on of those Tac Squads an Assault Squad.  This would give you some mobility and a QRF to handle holes in the line. 

 

How does this sound:

Loken

Seeker (5man) (equipped as above)

Tac 1 (15man) (equipped as above)

Tac 2 (15man) (equipped as above)

 

Centurion (Tarvitz proxy) (Art. Armor, Charnabal bade, Refractor)

Assault Squad (15man) (LC on SGT, 1 H.Flamer)

Tac Support Squad (5man) (5x Volkite Calver, Aug. Scanner) 

 

Less shiny upgrades but more bodies.  It's not perfect, but could be a start.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

I feel like I won't be able to kill any armor with only S6.

 

If I'm going to proxy Tarvitz, I could make him one of the Sergeants. That would give me at least points for something like a Rapier and maybe even rearrange and squeeze in a Contemptor. I could reduce the Assault Squad, since they are bulky and even at 10 will equal a 20-man squad. I'll have to see what I can work up. Thanks for the input!

[Jim AMM realgenius]

How's this?

 

Loken

 

Contemptor, Kheres, plasma blaster

Rapier, laser destroyer

Veterans, 5, melta, Vexilla, 2 power weapons, combi sarge

 

The two 15-man Tactical Squads, as above

Assault squad, 10, hand flamer, TLC sarge

Tac Support, volkites, augury scanner

 

I think I like the veterans better because they could be a scoring unit, but not sure how that would work out with only one of those squads.

[hisdudeness]

I have that list at 1590.

 

Besides scoring, what is the 'mission' of the vets?  Whenever I make a rounded list I build squads for a single purpose, this helps me avoid putting too much shiny stuff on a single unit.  

 

Options: 

Switch Assault sqd with a tooled out Destroyer sqd (with Jump packs).  Can be cheaper.

Drop the Rapier.  I've not cared for them.  Good in larger games but the Dread can fill the same role with the blaster and melta bombs on infantry.

 

I'll think on this some more while I'm paint 20 jump packs...

[Jim AMM realgenius]

Destroyers are interesting, but I'm wary of giving up a scoring unit. I might try bulking up the assault guys and get rid of the Vets. I want Loken for fluff reasons, but not where to put him.

[hisdudeness]

I agree, but you have 3 (4 if you make the Vets scoring).  Two of which are very large. Dropping the assault squad will leave you with 2 (3 with Vets).  I would think two 20 man scoring squads that would be fine for 1500 games.  After play testing you could split one/both of the 20 man Tac squads if you feel you need more scoring. Or you could always just say screw capturing objectives and go for the table.

 

This has always been my problem, balancing fluff with being competitive.  For me fluff normally wins. 

 

Is this list for a tournament or gamestore play?

[Jim AMM realgenius]

For a fluff-based tournament.

[hisdudeness]

I love how more Cons are running fluff games! 

 

How do you normally play marines?  Do you castle or assault?  I would stick with the 2 Tac squads and Loken as your core, then fill with units that fit your play style.  Or just fill the rest with units that would be fun to play.  Sadly there are too many fun looking units in the book...I wish the C:SM was written this way.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

Yes, I'm excited for the event.  The only thing I don't like about it is that it is 1500 points.  It really is a tough size when everything in the Betrayal book seems to want to be bigger and more expensive.

 

I play Marines, but occasionally.  Right now I'm playing a lot of my Badab-era Firehawks army that uses the Blood Angels Codex.  Lots of Assault guys.  I usually don't play the castle-up type of army, and prefer to be mobile.

 

But when Betrayal came out, I was reading the Heresy novels and the idea of Isstvan survivors was burnt into my mind.  I think my larger force will be a just-pre-Heresy Luna Wolves list and I'll have a few alternative Legion paint schemes.  It is tough for me to move off that original idea.

[hisdudeness]

Yea, 1500 way too low for a Legion list and it still meet the fluff of the Legions.  I think that you won't see too many full squads, the points and current tournament marine builds limit that line of thinking. Add in the need for scoring units for a tournament and you can't field much else fluffy.

 

I've been looking at building a Heresy army for awhile and almost cried when they announced Betrayal.  I wish the models would follow faster, although they are pushing them much faster then normal.  I did the same with my Badab army.  I started with Scorpions and after 6-7 squads was tired of painting grey nad yellow.  Started looking at the fluff and added squads from other chapters in the 'iconic' role they play. 

 

I'm currently stuck on how to base my Heresy models...I'm thinking of going clear/tinted acrylic.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

I did that for my Badab army.

I'm working on a new version, since I didn't like the angled "water"

[hisdudeness]

Nice.  Good change to the normal plastic.  I'm not interested in painting 90+ bases on top of 90+ models, or pay the $2-3 for designer bases.

 

I'm looking at these: http://www.litko.net/categories/Miniature-Bases-%26-Bottoms/Clear-Acrylic-Bases/

 

Have you play tested the 20 man squads?  Besides a Fury of the Legion volley, there is not much that the squad needs to worry about when moving in to the Assault. 

[Jim AMM realgenius]

I definitely need to try the twenty man.

 

The blank acrylic bases are interesting, definitely a different look. I'll be interested in seeing what they look like when done.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

Ok, a new version at 1500.  I figure I need to max-out the squads to get the benefit of Merciless Fighters, so this version features full size Troops.

 

Loken (goes with Tactical)

Centurion/Chaplain (goes with Assault), Jump Pack, Artificer Armor, Refractor Field

 

Apothecary (goes with Tactical), Artificer Armor, Power Sword, Augury Scanner

 

Legion Tactical Squad, 20, Vexilla, Additional CCW

Legion Assault Squad, 20, Sarge with Artificer, TLC, melta bombs

Legion Tactical Support Squad, 8, Volkite Calivers, Sarge with PW, Augury Scanner

 

Legion Heavy Support, 5, Autocannons

 

The only thing I'm really missing with what I want is a Contemptor, but I guess I could replace the Tac Support squad.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Ok, a new version at 1500.  I figure I need to max-out the squads to get the benefit of Merciless Fighters, so this version features full size Troops.

 

Loken (goes with Tactical)

Centurion/Chaplain (goes with Assault), Jump Pack, Artificer Armor, Refractor Field

 

Apothecary (goes with Tactical), Artificer Armor, Power Sword, Augury Scanner

 

Legion Tactical Squad, 20, Vexilla, Additional CCW

Legion Assault Squad, 20, Sarge with Artificer, TLC, melta bombs

Legion Tactical Support Squad, 8, Volkite Calivers, Sarge with PW, Augury Scanner

 

Legion Heavy Support, 5, Autocannons

 

The only thing I'm really missing with what I want is a Contemptor, but I guess I could replace the Tac Support squad.

 

It's difficult to make 1500 pts Legiones Astartes lists. I noticed you have to give up something you find essential for your strategy.

For example, as you mentioned above, your lists lack any dedicated long range anti-vehicle weapons.

 

Beside most legion units are more effective at full strenght and that's particulary true with SoH/Luna Wolves. If you have some spare point I'd give melta bombs to every IC/character you can, since they are the best anti-armour option you have.

 

Just a suggestion: What about going for a Death Star? Usually I'm against "all eggs in a single basket" but it seems death stars work better in HH than in standard 40K.

 

A Note on the Assault Squad: as you already know a 20 men assault squad is the core of one of my lists and I can tell you it requires a great part of your available points.

At 1500 pts it requires nearly 1/3 of your army. They are fast and strike hard but at 1500 pts it is quite expensive and it's not even a death star in the very sense of the word.

I noticed it very vulnerable when it is out of CC.

It was just a thought. It may even works fine. Did you play tested it already? I'd suggest to do it and see if you need those points elsewhere and use your tacticals as assault units or if the assault squad is really "game changing" in such list.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

I've thought about a big 'ol death squad of a 3 HQs on Jetbikes with a bike squad and whatever is left over for points in Troops, but that wouldn't be very theme-y with Isstvan Loyalists.

 

The other idea I had was to do something similar to what someone else posted here: a ton of Tactical squads.  Just make a big army, have all units be scoring and make it tough for people to whittle you down.

 

I haven't yet tried the assault squad, although I see their vulnerability to shooting is a good reason to run the Primus Medicae with them.  It is hard to get anyone to play at 1500 points, so I'm going to try them out in the inflated version of this list at 2000.  I'll also be able to see if the Autocannons might be better swapped out for a Medusa or if the Volkites should be switched for a Contemptor by trying them both out.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

[hisdudeness]

I've thought about jet bikes also.  They seem durable and quick.  A butt ton of Tac marines may be a pretty good add and be fluffy.  As C. Shepard said, 1500 is rough on a legion list with large and/or expensive squads.  Don't over look the big guns, medusas and basilisks could be a good add, although not fuffy.

 

On another note, the clear bases are in and added to my HQs, check'em on my list post.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

1500 comes down to tough choices and I finally made the tough choice of removing Loken.  It was tough, because I thought I wanted this to be a Loken list from the beginning, but it just isn't working out that way.

 

Here's the latest iteration:

 

Centurion, Chaplain, Artificer, Refractor, Jump Pack, PF

2 Apothecaries with Power Sword, Artificer

20 Legion Tactical Squad, Vexilla, Nuncio-vox, Artificer Sarge

15 Legion Assault Squad, 3 Power Axe, Artificer/PF Sarge

10 Legion Tactical Support Squad, Volkite Chargers, Artificer/PW Sarge

5 Legion Heavy Support Squad, Autocannons

Legion Artillery Tank Squad, Medusa

 

Apothecaries go with the Vokiite and Tac squads.  A little extra CC (power weapons) helps them, for deterrent if nothing else.  The Autocannons still get killed a lot and I'd get rid of them if I had something else for flyers.  Making them bigger doesn't really seem to make them that much more effective.  They key is maneuvering and using the big Assault squad.  21 models was too hard for me to use effectively.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Looking good, might need to slip in some MBs for anti tank though

[Jim AMM realgenius]

True, I haven't faced many big vehicles at 1500. Mostly rhinos.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

and LR Spartans are murderous!

[hisdudeness]

Pulling named characters that a list is build around (fluff or rules wise) is rough.  The only 'weakness' I see is if you fight Mech IG.  Those are my bane for any Marine arny I push.  The AP3 torrent 'chimera' wipes out my units everytime.   

 

But the AC should beable to handle them, they have the range to at least soften the armor as it comes in.  How did the Arty work for you?  I'm looking at adding a medusa or baslisk sqdn for alternate options in my big list.  Calling in danger close arty from my Master of Signal sounds hella fun.