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1750 - Null Deploy (almost) Competitive List.


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#51
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Ive only seen one guy who runs a shooty Corteas list down here.  Maybe why im not tooooo concerned locally.  Would defs not be a list I took to a big US tourney.


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
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Corbulo Tactica

#52
knife&fork

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Those Croissants aren't coming on til turn 2 earliest, which means you will get a nice full turn of shooting at his selection of deployed units. And if he doesn't get those Cryptek's on and down in just the right spot, you're probably going to be in combat next turn as well.

 

When I have played Necrons in the last couple of months, it has mostly been mixed mech with only 3-4 flyers and Annhilation Barges with Wraiths/Dest Lord. And they tell me they really don't like playing drop pod marines at all.

 

The infantry will do better than the dreads. An infantry heavy pod list will be a really tough nut to crack for 'crons. It's just that the triple fragioso which work so well against other armies will almost be a liability vs 'crons. 3-4 fliers isn't a ton of points either, chances are he'll have more of his army on the board than you, so I wouldn't count on winning on a turn 1 wipe or overwhelm him with the alpha strike.

 

As for warp quake it's not that bad. To get good coverage he'll need turn one, he needs to pass every psychic test and even then you still have a 6" disembark from the pods and 8-24" on top of that for shooting. Well out of the warp quake bubble barring some unlucky scatter. Another option is giving up the turn one shooting and try to make a drop pod wall out of warp quake range to put you in a good position for turn 2. Coteaz himself can't exactly cover the entire table either, although he is one of the reasons I like to have some units on the board. 

 

Things can also turn sour as he might need to deploy in a manner (castling) which will be very bad for him if you seize the initiative. 


24 years of Blood Angels

#53
Ushtarador

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As for warp quake it's not that bad. To get good coverage he'll need turn one, he needs to pass every psychic test and even then you still have a 6" disembark from the pods and 8-24" on top of that for shooting. Well out of the warp quake bubble barring some unlucky scatter. Another option is giving up the turn one shooting and try to make a drop pod wall out of warp quake range to put you in a good position for turn 2. Coteaz himself can't exactly cover the entire table either, although he is one of the reasons I like to have some units on the board. 

 

Things can also turn sour as he might need to deploy in a manner (castling) which will be very bad for him if you seize the initiative. 

 

You need a double 6 to seize, meaning it almost never happens :/ on the flipside, the GK-player seizes 33% of the time. Also, if coteaz sits with multimeltas or a squad of terminators with 2 psycannons, you can't really deepstrike near to his castle, as he'll just shoot you up.

Concerning warpquake, a single unit with 5 guys can actually cover roughly 34x25 square inches, which requires only a single test and leaves you with very little room to maneuver besides coteaz unit and the no-go zone. When you have to deploy your footslogging stuff >24'' away from greyknights, you will never get in a good position anymore, they'll tear you up in the midfield before you get remotely close.

 

Hands down, this combination is just THE counter for this type of army, I don't think you can win if he gets first turn and doesn't fail the quake.


Edited by Ushtarador, 24 February 2013 - 08:29 PM.


#54
knife&fork

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Why would you deploy more than 24" away with everything? It's enough to DS 13" away from the quake bubble and then move in and shoot. And any decent table should have terrain on it, unlimited los from the deployment zone rarely happens. Add the 50% chance of nightfight, enemy units providing cover and creative use of the pods themselves. 

 

Frankly Coteaz unlimited intercept ability is total bullcrap and It might be an uphill battle but it's far from an autoloss even with a zero deployment list. The fragiosos however most likely will make for a lousy first wave in this scenario.

 

Then again it's a good example of why it's better to have something on the table that can you can use to full effect on turn one.


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#55
SamaNagol

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Speaking of GK, I'm seeing more and more Dreadknights pop up these days. They're really difficult to deal with with this pod style of list, as you don't have the mobility to avoid them.

 

(usually it is just bare bones ones with fists and an extra Heavy Incinerator, no jump pack)



#56
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They don't have good mobility either without the pack. I don't think they are that much of a problem until they have a sword and pack with the incinerator being AP4, just keep them away from the dreads. Being single unit characters they can at least be challenged for damage control. Oh, and no grenades. 

 

Power weapons being AP3 and losing the I buff from FC made them a lot harder to deal with. In 5th a talon DC dread could slice them up real nice, now you are better off shooting them. 


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#57
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Its why im a fan of the magna/melta combo.  4+ to wound on the 2x templates too.  6's rend.  Not great odds to kill one by any change, but damaging one is going to be good to go.  


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#58
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I like the droppod-style, but I still don't see what you would do against Coteaz plus warp quake. It feels almost like an auto-lose to me if you don't get first turn, isn't that bad for competitive play?ohmy.png

 

Against a warp quake list you're 100% right.  Thats my nemesis list. 

Id need to go first to be honest.  

With corteas in as well, it would depend on what kind of retinue he had and what the set up is.  

 

Thats the gamble Id take though going into a tourney

 

I've been thinking about this, the only solution I can see is the use Eldar Allies, which would tend to leave your own psychic powers at home.

 

Farseer on jetbike with Runes of Warding and Doom

3 Jetbikes

191 points

 

Preferably they should hide behind a defense line with a comms relay, to get everything else in.

 

If a pod-list met my GK and I got first turn, I would only need to succed with three psychic tests to cover my table half and the middle of his half. He would have 1/8 free and 1/8 covered by Coteaz and three twin-linked MM shooting at most everything landing in that 1/8.

 

RoW would eliminate the threat.



#59
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Not a terrible idea, but, then id be losing Mephiston which is essentially my numero uno : / 


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#60
SamaNagol

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They don't have good mobility either without the pack. I don't think they are that much of a problem until they have a sword and pack with the incinerator being AP4, just keep them away from the dreads. Being single unit characters they can at least be challenged for damage control. Oh, and no grenades. 

 

Power weapons being AP3 and losing the I buff from FC made them a lot harder to deal with. In 5th a talon DC dread could slice them up real nice, now you are better off shooting them. 

 

They've generally DSd in and then been a proper pain in the arse to get rid of.



#61
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Don't want to be a hijacker.... but can I ask some opinions on which of these two BA/SW null deploy lists you'd veer towards? Seeing as most of the pre-eminent brains are active in here.... 1500pts

 

BA Primary 
 
Mephiston (Warlord)
250pts

Corbulo
105pts

8 Death Company
Power Fist
Drop Pod
220pts

10 Assault Marines
2 Meltaguns
Lightning Claw
225pts

SW Allied Detachment

Rune Priest
Rune Axe
JOTWW + Living Lighting
100pts

7 Wolf Guard
TDA + Combi-Plasma *pack leader*
TDA + Combi-Plasma *pack leader*
TDA + Heavy Flamer
Combi-Melta
Combi-Melta
Combi-Plasma
Combi-Plasma
Drop Pod
241pts

8 Grey Hunters
Plasma Gun
Wolf Banner
Drop Pod
175pts

7 Grey Hunters
Plasma Gun
Wolf Banner
Drop Pod
160pts

 

This gives me a strong Warlord. Only 4 pods so just 2 turn 1 but 89% chance of getting the JP squad turn 2. 4 Scoring troops. Every unit bar the JP has a 2+ save to tank Heldrake wounds

 

Or....

 

SW Primary
 
Rune Priest (Warlord)
Runic Armour
Runic Axe
Jaws Of The World Wolf & Living Lightning
120pts

8 Wolf Guard
TDA + Combi-Plasma *pack leader*
TDA + Combi-Plasma *pack leader*
TDA + Combi-Melta *pack leader*
TDA + Heavy Flamer
TDA + Combi-Plasma
Combi-Melta
Combi-Melta
Combi-Plasma
Drop Pod
279pts

8 Grey Hunters
Plasma Gun
Wolf Banner
Drop Pod
175pts

8 Grey Hunters
Meltagun
Wolf Banner
Drop Pod
170pts

7 Grey Hunters
Plasma Gun
Wolf Banner
Drop Pod
160pts

BA Allied Detachment

Mephiston
250pts

Corbulo
105pts
 
8 Death Company
Thunder Hammer
Drop Pod
225pts

 

This gives me 5 pods, so 3 turn 1 for a stronger Alpha strike. Less survivable Warlord. Same scoring troops. Stronger Wolf Guard pack (extra terminator) and stronger DC (Thunder Hammer). More survivable 4th scoring unit of GHs with Bolters and Counter Assault plus WGPL, but less manoeuvrable. Every unit has a 2+ to tank Heldrakes if I see them.

 

Just want to know what people perceive as the favourable choice. I will be taking these to a 1500pt book missions tourney in May



#62
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I like the first one. Corbs becomes a buff to a whole 10man squad too.  

 

Id personally make a few changes, but they may not be to your style.

 

Id take out one of the GH squads, and sub in a fraggy dread.  Id also try get a Cyclone over a heavy flamer on the term and get 2+ ruinic armour on your rune priest.


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#63
SamaNagol

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Thank you Mort, really appreciate you taking the time to read through.

 

Dropping the GH pack... That leaves me with under 20 scoring models at 1500pts. I'd feel reeeeeally uncomfortable with that! haha. One Fragioso Is just REALLY easy to bop in a turn, whereas the Wolf Guard unit fulfils the role for cheaper and with bit more staying power in my experience which is why they are there.

 

In the list with Meph as Warlord, I really didn't feel 20pts to keep the RP alive was paramount when he's in a GH pack anyway. Would love a Cyclone but 35pts is A LOT to find. I'd probably spend it on an Assault Cannon instead. Side armour shots and the like.

 

I think its going to be down to a lot of playtesting and tweaking along the way in regards to how I use the 580+ points of Meph and DC units.

 

I got told it was utter crap last night on 3++ by someone. Drop Pods dont work, 27 scoring models was way to many, Meph was way too pricy at 1500, Corbulo was a waste to buff the DC, allies at 1500 were a waste especially Marines+Marines.

 

But I am interested in all thoughts.



#64
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Meph was way too pricy at 1500

 

All of his points are stupid, but this one is clearly the worst :D what an idiot. 

 

I prefer the first list as well, ASM give you additional mobility and benefit from corbulo, it's just more flexible. Personally, I would also prefer the GH squad to a fragioso, 3 scoring units are just a lot better than 2. Also, it would be the only vehicle in your list and draw all the anti-tank fire.



#65
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But I am interested in all thoughts.

Ya! In retrospect, 2 squads of scoring units is no good. 

 

Mephy at 1500 is amazing. 

Pods can work exceptionally well (not always though) 

Corbs is amazing with DC.  

Personally, I wouldnt have meph as the warlord though!  I believe meph needs to be in the thick of things and needs to die cleaning out the enemy. You cant conserve a 250 pnt model for fear of losing a game.  

Ive done alright with 15 scoring models in a 1500 before, but i wouldnt recommend.  

 

Pod dread while can be popped is situation and dependent on your local meta, so if peoples run melta heavy, then best off with the hunters. 


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#66
Ushtarador

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Ive done alright with 15 scoring models in a 1500 before, but i wouldnt recommend.

 

It sorta depends what sort of models they are I guess. The small squads used for razorbacks can easily be conserved, but if it's jumpers and squads in pods that get into the enemies face by turn 1, it's not that easy :)

 

Interesting perspective on Meph as warlord, you have a point there. I usually manage to not let him die, but maybe I could be more aggressive if he wasn't that important it's true.



#67
SamaNagol

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At 1500pts, Meph can proooooobably assassinate nearly any other Warlord character though in a pinch.

 

Back to a point that is relevant to all of these 'Null deploy' situations....

How do you deal with Meph being your only model on the board Turn 1? Ensure he is deployed behind LoS blocking terrain?


Edited by SamaNagol, 01 March 2013 - 02:14 PM.


#68
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Thats what i did in my 2 null-deploy games.  Since we set up terrain you just make sure theres a piece of terrain big enough for him to hide behind.  If you dont set up terrain, make sure you have at least one piece you can get behind!


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#69
imp

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At a tournament last weekend there were 4 lists (out of 22) with far too much warp
quake for a pod list to handle. But this looks so cool I’ll probably end up doing
a version with Eldar allies =)



#70
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At 1500pts, Meph can proooooobably assassinate nearly any other Warlord character though in a pinch.

 

Back to a point that is relevant to all of these 'Null deploy' situations....

How do you deal with Meph being your only model on the board Turn 1? Ensure he is deployed behind LoS blocking terrain?

 

I think you want to do that, but that you also want to deploy something else. At least an attack bike, which can also be tucked away outside LoS. Just so that inderect fire has more than one target



#71
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GKs with Warp Quake are a good option to counter Screamer/Flamer stuff

 

So it may well shift the meta now the Daemons have changed fundamentally. Strike Squads die horrifically against Heldrakes for example.



#72
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At 1500pts, Meph can proooooobably assassinate nearly any other Warlord character though in a pinch.

 

Back to a point that is relevant to all of these 'Null deploy' situations....

How do you deal with Meph being your only model on the board Turn 1? Ensure he is deployed behind LoS blocking terrain?

 

I think you want to do that, but that you also want to deploy something else. At least an attack bike, which can also be tucked away outside LoS. Just so that inderect fire has more than one target

 

I dont mind too much if the indirect stuff fires at meph.  He's T6 and 2+ save.  Theres precious little with indirect that will kill him. With attack  bikes on the board all it means is that the enemy shoots the bikes since theyre easier to kill -increasing his FB chance.

 

Interesting about the 4 quake lists.  How did they do at the tournament overall ?


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#73
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Well, two GK players seemed to be rather new to tournaments. I ended up at 7th place, which was ok. The other "veteran" GK player placed fairly low, quite a bit to a ruling about the mission he was unaware of. I only used warp quake in one game, nurgle deamons, they were shot down a few at a time. Think I lost two or three dreadnoughts and 5 Interceptors in total. There were 3 Daemon lists, but I don't know how the other GK faired against them.


Edited by imp, 06 March 2013 - 08:13 AM.


#74
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So if I was gunning for top tier I wouldnt have had to bother with them teehee.gif


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#75
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Only with two =)

 

In Sweden most tournaments give between 0-20 points for a game. 10-10 is a draw, a win can give you anything between 11 and 20 points, while the loser gets the rest of the 20 points. So you can actually win all your games and end up just above the middle. In this tournament at least 8 had a chance to win before the last game. I was only 8 points (out of 100) from 2nd place, and I finished 7th.